Can we do without organised religion? Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue 81

Churches are in decline, certainly in the western world. People tend not to turn to a priest for spiritual insight or advice. But is a lived relationship with the sacred and wisdom traditions denuded as organised religion disappears? In this Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon talk about religious institutions for good and ill. Rupert picks up on a new book by Alison Milbank, Once and Future Parish, to ask how churches can maintain connection with the seasons, place and community, and speak to the whole of our humanity in its rituals and rites of passage. The conversation explores why many people are wary of organised religion, and are inclined to treat religion more as a threat than a visionary promise. The perils of a privatised spiritual questing are set alongside the paucity of contemporary church life, though if it can be hard to live with organised religion, it seems also hard to live fully without it.
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Dr Rupert Sheldrake, PhD, is a biologist and author best known for his hypothesis of morphic resonance. At Cambridge University he worked in developmental biology as a Fellow of Clare College. He was Principal Plant Physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics and From 2005 to 2010 was Director of the Perrott-Warrick project, Cambridge.
www.sheldrake.org?svd=81
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Dr Mark Vernon is a writer and psychotherapist. He contributes to programmes on the radio, writes and reviews for newspapers and magazines, gives talks and podcasts. His books have covered themes including friendship and God, ancient Greek philosophy and wellbeing. His new book, out August 2019, is "A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling and the Evolution of Consciousness". He has a PhD in ancient Greek philosophy, and other degrees in physics and in theology, and works as a psychotherapist in private practice. He used to be an Anglican priest.
Mark's latest book is...
A Secret History of Christianity: Jesus, the Last Inkling, and the Evolution of Consciousness
www.markvernon.com/books/a-sec...

[@johnkraner2892]

And a very interesting perspective from you, Mark - also, thank you.

[@maryhitchcock-nn1nm]

Super happy to see and hear from you Rupert! I have been checking daily for another upload wanting to hear what is on your mind in this mayhem world. And here you are with Mark! Now, on to the conversation. Thank you so much in advance!

[@timothyraywalls7261]

It is far better to have a personal inner religion "a God-conscious connection," than an organized secular and godless church.

[@michelleburkholder2547]

Amen! It's an inside job.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

The truth may be that those are the same thing from different angles. If one is light, the other, shadow.

[@timothyraywalls7261]

@@amanofnoreputation2164 Yes, yours is an accurate perception - organized religion is the lower density shadow of the inner spirit-reality, while the "shadow" ought never to be confused with the "spirit-reality" casting the "shadow." 🙂

[@M_K171]

Such a wonderful discussion.

[@johnkraner2892]

Very illuminating and uplifting, Rupert - thank you.

[@flaviogago]

Very interesting conversation. Thanks 🙏

[@patricksee10]

Great conversation gentleman, it is much appreciated

[@samrowbotham8914]

I really enjoy these dialogues my take on it we would all be better off without organised religion. Organised religion divides us.

[@AbdullahMikalRodriguez]

A very naive and shortsided take. There is nothing to unify us without organized religion. People have just eaten up all the anti-religion propaganda over the past few generations and they don't think about these things anymore... you can't run away from faith. You have to believe in something.

[@samrowbotham8914]

@@AbdullahMikalRodriguezIf anything its your own vision that is myopic. There are other areas of life in which people are more unified than religion. Politics, Science, Philosophy, Art and Sport. Organised religion does more harm than good. War, Genocide, Bodily Mutilation, Misogyny etc. The three Abrahamic faiths are without doubt the worst as they have this powerful hypnotic control over their adherents and they can push the right buttons and have their followers murder others for no other reason than they have been programmed to take grave offence at anyone who insults their imaginary god. No man kills with more relish than the programmed religious zealot who is totally disconnected from everything else. The world needs to get rid of the Abrahamic religions or they will be the catalyst that destroys this civilization.

[@mrscpc1918]

@@AbdullahMikalRodriguez. There is much to unify us without organized religion , (which does great harm often ). We can be unified by many beliefs (good and bad).

[@dwifred472]

Such an engaging conversation. It felt like you guys represented the mystical side and organized side very well.

[@artandculture5262]

Academics can abandon everything they like to, however current events show it not a realistic goal.

[@wybuchowyukomendant]

Honestly, looking at how catholic church operates nowadays, and how it deals with it`s... "love for children" here in Poland, I`d love to say we don`t need any organized form of a religion, because, at least in the roman catholic example, it operates like a corrupted corporation. But community sure is important, now people build communities around everything but for older folks church was THE community. In my city more people go for a communal trash picking on Sunday afternoon than to the church tho.

[@thedandelionranger]

It’s a dramatic return to community values, singing and dancing, culminating extravagantly as a tidal wave of radical world wide environmentalism

[@jasnajazz]

Organized religion, despite its flaws, provides hope to people. They need to believe that someone is watching over them and will help them in difficult times.

[@user-ku7bt4ge9b]

You're describing faith in God, not organised religion I think.

[@dougney3026]

Hello from Virginia my friend's 🇺🇸 Great Channel 👍

[@sirrobinofloxley7156]

1911 saw the end of the Poor Laws, the Poor Laws being instigated by Henry Vlll after he sacked the monasteries. The 1911 National Insurance Act changed the jurisdiction of the parishes of the churches as the first jurisdiction. Basically, the National Government made themselves the 'Pro Patria', rather than Pro Patria meaning for the country, now it meant for the government. Or, at least for the DWP, which we see with the Welfare State gobbling the equity of the People up, in the form of their posterity and prosperity. Between the Calvinists of the aristocracy, which includes the Royal Family, and the alliance with Bolshevism, through the First, Second and Third International, then the State have replaced themselves as the God and as Calvinism professes, no one, except Calvinists, can be 'saved'.

[@adrianthomas1473]

Sadly so many in the church seem to have lost interest in God and primarily promote popular secular causes - who would look to the church for deep spiritual teachings? It’s sad.

[@user-ku7bt4ge9b]

I'm a Christian - for my sins - but can't find a Christian church to join.

[@user-yg2ot1ui1z]

Even when the church operates at 10% ,it still is more than what others offer.

[@waleskaelektra17]

Thankfully 🙏🙌

[@kentvanschuyler9520]

Teilhard de Chardin said ''evolution become conscious of itself''...ABANDON DARWINISME+++

[@ericchristen2623]

I agree with the holy places / community values

[@jtzoltan]

Christianity has always done some of its best work (in my opinion) during times of "coming apart" and when it's the underdog... that can inspire some of the greatest levels of determination, good works, philosophical crescendos... when its under pressure of suppression or negative attack on it, the smaller core of believers really cone out with the best arguments in favour of it, while many of the wolves in sheeps clothing have defected to whatever the public considers the ascendant moral system so they can have the goodwill and get the furthest with their virtue signaling, leaving only those in Christianity who are convinced, who try to do the right thing noatter what others think. Finally, if people think the world was dysfunctional and backwards with Christianity at the center, wait until they see what happens when the modern alternatives take its place... we're watching that now: all Sam Harris-esque illusions that we'd have a golden age of science and rationality likely go out the window and we get chaos, liscenciousness, other forms of intolerance fhat are worse. I do agree that too much Christianity im society without rationality to counterbalance it can and has done harm (especially again, with the wolves in sheeps clothing). Having the correct balance does good though and I jooe we will see this return one day

[@BenVanCamp]

Christianity is rational. We were created to love one another, as we are all in the image of God. God knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain, and what man can save His own life? What can you gain if you gain the whole word but lose your soul? It is irrational to grasp at rationality when we all have the common enemy of death. If you get there without putting your trust in the only savior, Jesus Christ, you are not rational, you are blinded by pride. Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes. God gives grace to the humble, and resists the proud. Repent.

[@Liam-ke2hv]

@@BenVanCamp You have been deceived, the devil is in the details. You, me, life, death, all are details, categories assigned by thought, which is ego. Truth is the totality, the one. What you call God. Only truth is you could not be separate from God even if you tried. You don't need anyone or anything. That is truth.

[@BenVanCamp]

@@Liam-ke2hv and what do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, then who from? I need whatever it is that has given me the gift of life, and what’s good is that he did not hide, he met us face to face, as Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us, as He always has and always will. This mind you think with, the body you “think” with, is a gift from something, it is not by accident, what in reality has been designed so perfectly but life, yet the smart men of our culture believe it was by accident, a cosmic burp? Strange.

[@Liam-ke2hv]

​​​​​​@@BenVanCamp an accident? No, it just is. There is no accident, there is just that which is. You can call it God if you like, but that word has become entrenched deeply in misunderstanding. God is love, love is the basis of your being and mine. Love does not demand adherence to a system of belief, or an attachment to a certain individual as authority. Love certainly does not demand we divide ourselves into categories of identification. No words are needed to express the truth, as real truth is the present moment itself, and always precedes any words or thought. No teacher, no path, no rituals or prayers can show you truth, they can only try to help you recognize it within yourself but often only serve to lead you further from it. Sound cannot show you silence. Names cannot describe the nameless. Every word spoken is a lie, the belief you are separate from anything at all. The observer and the observed are one and the same, the difference between the two is illusory. "Be still and know I am God" "I am as I am" The mind must be still. There must be no motive, no mental association at all to truly perceive what Jesus really wanted to show you. Not the version that has been distorted. He did not want your worship, he wanted to show you your pure being, one of absolute selflessness. The holy spirit, the union of the father and son. Did god create you or did you create god? Is there a difference?

[@sacredguineapig9397]

The power of "the Christ" is his ability to live on in the present through the hearts of men, in the past as a historically significant figure, and the future through the second coming. Sounds like a holy trinity. I don't subscribe to it, but gotta admit it's an all encompassing character study.

[@AdolfoRiosPitaGiurfa]

Believing or Knowing that is the choice!

[@tinfoilhatscholar]

What's up with the million commercials? I can't even hear the talk ..

[@aanii2878]

Seek and you shall find, right? How many of the clergy, or the masses following the pharisees, have ever actually sought? I am speaking of ALL of the mainstream religions; priests, rabbis, sheikhs, etc...? Those that have truly sought see right through these cult leaders that are purely agenda driven. And those that begin to truly seek start to realize that something's not quite right about what these preachers are preaching (a lack of heart and soul). 🙏 Peace🙏

[@AbdullahMikalRodriguez]

Much of this conversation is ignoring the elephant in the room, which is the degredation of the Christian tradition, not just in the west but in the world as a whole. The west is collapsing under the weight of its own internal contradictions. As a Muslim, I can assure you these same internal sectarian and theological issues are not found in Islam. We cant have these discussions about organized religion in a vaccuum. We must acknowledge the diverse spectrum of religions that exist in both the west and in the world in general. These criticisms of "organized religion" are really just criticisms of modern Christianity, and dont take into account the deep and meaningful answers Islam provides. Just my thoughts. Thank you for the conversation. Rupert is always refreshing to listen too. Salams ✌🏼

[@ericchristen2623]

Without lies Islam does not exist...

[@_ARCATEC_]

💓

[@jamesrosales89]

the Lower Astral (Luciferic) has its grips on most organised religions. i though Rupert Sheldrake and David Hawkins are close. i would have thought Sheldrake would have heard David Hawkins talk on this topic

[@dxer22000]

religion is a snare & a racket

[@user-ku7bt4ge9b]

*Organised* religion in practice turns out like this sadly - as you might expect bearing in mind the existence of the Devil.

[@johnbrown4568]

The well-deserved and fully documented resurrection of Jesus Christ points to the ground of all being. A serious consideration of this miraculous event is highly recommended for all persons.

[@saiberunato]

Theoretically possible.

[@margueritespringer3687]

For the first time since listening to Marks podcasts, I found him to be more gullible and superficial than I ever have before. I wonder, is he 'in love'?

[@edgarmorales4476]

"God" cannot "save" you, since, in rebelliousness and stubbornness, you will continue to make the same earthbound mistakes till the end of time-thus creating your own sicknesses and miseries. Those who have insight and understanding will save themselves and the planet from wholesale disaster. There will be those who will receive the TRUTH with joy, since in their being, they have known that beyond the religions of the world has been TRUTH-the REALITY of existence. These are the people who will prosper and will eventually save the world from self-annihilation. You cannot ignore the problems inherent in your individualized existence and believe that "God" will save you from them. Your only hope of a final escape, of stepping off the treadmill of human experience, is to recognize and acknowledge them and then work minute-by-minute to transcend them and eventually merge, in purity of mind, heart and action, and become "one" with Universal Love Consciousness-"God"-which does the LOVE WORK.

[@TerriblePerfection]

I believe that humans overthink, that thinking itself is a byproduct of our large brains, and that we are basically sophisticated husks for all the living organisms of our body. This idea doesn't bother me though, just as the idea of not having free will doesn't bother me. It doesn't make this astounding life any less pleasurable. Of course this is also just a thought...

[@BenVanCamp]

Jesus Christ is the light that lights everyone that comes into the world. His light is life. The spirit of humanity is a candle of the Lord.

[@clintnorton4322]

Mr Sheldrake, in light of Michael Levin's zenobot and cancer research, I'm really surprised that you haven't made the association that the supposedly innate human social drive is a resonance field overlaid onto a more fundamental nature of individualistic behavior. Do you have any thoughts on this?

[@HazYyy]

Blame everything, however small, on animal agriculture. Try basing reality on the suffering of humans and non-human animals for more clarity on existence and how things are. It's not easy, but it can help counter what's been described as our most overarching and destructive belief system: humanism.

[@lindawhitehead6149]

I notice people still admire Jesus and his message, but let's face it that old story of sin and sal;vation just does not wash any more. Christianity has been about so many things like power and control.

[@josephszot5545]

GOD inspired me to leave the money grabbing religion, were a priest can't enjoy being a man or father. I respect the Russian Orthodox were a priest can be human!

[@user-se3bw8ku8i]

there is no yes. there is an absolute and positive NO ! indefinitely. can anyone prove this as wrong !!

[@josephszot5545]

Organized man made religion is a money making control mechanism. GOD doesn't need praise from the creatures he gave life to! You honor and satisfy GOD by living a life by following what you know intuitively is right from wrong. That is what free will is all about.

[@carborundum1969]

Why did God, apparently, send his son to teach us of higher learning and only have 70 days of his 33 years on earth recorded? Jesus may well have wanted a more personal connection with individuals but knowing a very influential story was to be told, surely the importance of every utterance would have allowed us a deeper introspection of his meaning or gods will, instead leaving us squabbling over the scant information he provided us.

[@BenVanCamp]

“This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true. Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.” ‭‭John‬ ‭21‬:‭24‬-‭25‬ ‭NIV‬‬

[@BenVanCamp]

“If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

[@kensho123456]

O'l Jenkins was controversial.

[@ericchristen2623]

Rigid dogma is standard in Islam as well as science. Why ignore this evident fact?

[@jan-martinulvag1953]

Organized religion is controlled by people in the spiritworld. So what are you going to do about it? Teach the people in the spiritworld how to let go of it?

[@jtzoltan]

Who is it inthe spirit world controlling it, and is it a struggle between beings of different valence (between good and evil) and do they "control" via the hearts and minds of humans within the hierarchies of religion?

[@jan-martinulvag1953]

@@jtzoltan There are no private thoughts. Thoughts are leaking all over the place. People that pass over do no change much, they for the most part continue like before. There is no good and bad only real and unreal.

[@anthonyrussano]

What did Jesus commission us to do?

[@jamesharkins6799]

Follow

[@goldwhitedragon]

Islam is growing.

[@ericchristen2623]

So what? Not an argument

[@goldwhitedragon]

@@ericchristen2623So what if it's not an "ArGuMeNt"?

[@allanmckone8853]

Everything in religious texts was written by desert-dwelling Mystics, who wrote NOTHING than it was an allegory, a parable, or a metaphor.

[@tinnaz1]

The Most High did not set one god over all people. Yahweh is not everybody's God. Deut. 32:8, Ps. 82.

[@BenVanCamp]

Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. -Romans 3:29-30

[@BenVanCamp]

“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” ‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NIV‬

[@tinnaz1]

35% arguing for, fighting for, destroying for, etc., the less than 1%. Here is some proof.

[@BenVanCamp]

@@tinnaz1 May the Most High reveal Himself to you.

[@tinnaz1]

@@BenVanCamp Again? Cool!

[@BenVanCamp]

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. In Him we live and move and have our being. In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God. The logos became flesh and dwelt among us, and they called Him Emmanuel. He came unto His own, and they received Him not. He was crucified between two sinners, died, and rose again on the third day. He went up to heaven again and sits at the center of God’s throne.

[@wojtekkubiakmusic]

I am blessed with non believing in God and I feel very happy about it.