'Can You Define A Child?': Thomas Massie Grills ATF Director On Agency's Youth Gun Violence Stats

During a House Judiciary Committee hearing Thursday, Rep. Thomas Massie (R-KY) spoke about the ATF's definition of 'child' and how that affects its data collection of youth gun violence.
Fuel your success with Forbes. Gain unlimited access to premium journalism, including breaking news, groundbreaking in-depth reported stories, daily digests and more. Plus, members get a front-row seat at members-only events with leading thinkers and doers, access to premium video that can help you get ahead, an ad-light experience, early access to select products including NFT drops and more:
account.forbes.com/membership...
Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: / forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: / forbes
More From Forbes: forbes.com

[@Dr.Disregard]

Jail for this guy. Jail for mayorkas. Jail for Garland.

[@jonboy9912]

Dont forget the Big Guy

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

And the 535 members on Captiol Hill.

[@Taylormadetdk]

Prison. There’s a big difference

[@terry_willis]

No jail. Dungeon. (bread and water too)

[@ZONEPRESSLLC]

lololololololol

[@rfborden4854]

Less than 25k gun murders per year. 400k medical negligence deaths. This has never been about savings lives.

[@jeremeygaff6668]

Very true.

[@tymiller9714]

Ya, and the majority of gun murders are...drum roll! Gang killings in heavily "gun free" zones. Its funny, when you take guns away from the normal people, only the criminals have them....I feel like I heard that b4...idk

[@str8up598]

Of course it's not. It's control.

[@Sunday_Swagger]

& when you have this knowledge…saying ‘no’ to the experimental drug was a No Brainer.

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

Of course it hasn't, just look at the Waco seige when the ATF murdered over a dozen children.

[@jeffwebb-eb5hg]

He openly admits that this execution was premeditated, with the intent to make an example of the victim. DEFUND THE ATF. ... SAVE LIVES

[@pandoralechat780]

This is a national outrage!

[@matthewcastro7670]

@jeffwebb-eb5hg Ummm no we need the ATF. Im a proud gun owner/ republican but who doesn’t live in this make believe bubble that there are no criminals who don’t make or sell ghost guns for criminal intentions… remember this BLUE LIVES MATTER. I think instead of defund the ATF… it’s replace the command staff. Yes we need regulations, no regular citizens need a fucking 50 cal in their house for deer hunting. #Blue Lives Matter

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

​@@pandoralechat780 so was the storming of the Branch Dividian Complex in Waco Texas where the ATF murdered more than a dozen children. They will indiscriminately kill anyone. Act accordingly.

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

REMEMBER WACO!!!!

[@ap8riot931]

C'mon man, DiddleBack is a WEF operative whose ultimate mission is to disarm America by any means. Apparently he has chosen gun violence to do so. How ironic.

[@1379Jerry]

AFT just murdered a man for protecting himself, from people breaking into his home, And it was the ATF breaking in. The man would of never been murdered if the AFT would of announced who they were before bashing in the door.

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

Look back on The Branch Dividian Complex in Waco, Texas. The ATF murdered more than a dozen children.

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

REMEMBER WACO!!

[@1379Jerry]

@@user-zj9md9xd5l Yes I do. But at Waco they had time to come out peacefully and chose not to. This time the ATF busted down the front door with out warning. I think they was looking to kill him

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

@@1379Jerry getting away with actions made in Waco emboldened this terrorist organization.

[@JohnLittle-ze7sp]

And the sad part about it is that this Dettlebach guy thinks he was justified in doing this crime, Put him in jail for the rest of his life

[@anthonysmith756]

The more I see the ATF guy the more I realize he is a tool against we the people.

[@warlockpaladin2261]

That's the whole reason the ATF was created in the first place.

[@Spam-pq2sg]

This man deserves life in prison.

[@Chulitatr]

The Repubs promulgate guns and permit open/carry.

[@jimmybutler1379]

ATF can not stay with truth and keep THEIR job ; but have to over estimate every enteractions and disreguard the truth !...

[@darrenpeterson5381]

you know the director of the ATF is lying when his lips are moving he is an agent of evil he and the agent who pulled the trigger needs to be in prison

[@gembearer67]

He keeps squirming in his seat, like a worm in hot ashes. He silently broadcasts the vibe of "rat-fink shifty sob"....all over the place. I'm waiting for his face to shift into something resembling,"Peter Pettigrew" Unworthy ofTrust

[@stacieadams1403]

Let us be clear 2A is Non- negotiable

[@juliemorgan4937]

Not to be infringed upon simple words .... NOT TO BE INFRINGED UPON UPHOLD YOUR SWORN OATH IT'S YOUR DUTY

[@Chulitatr]

The US Constitution isn't either, right SCOTUS?

[@Samhain606]

ATF has no reason to exist

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

Other than to murder innocent Americans. Remember Waco Texas, the Branch Dividian Complex when the ATF murdered those children.

[@robertlawson698]

Sure it does! The reason it exists is to nullify the 2A and totally disarm the general public!

[@wydoesntexist]

Overreach. For control. Nothing else.

[@The_Rob_D]

17, 18, and 19 years olds ARE NOT CHILDREN.

[@Audrey-ld1hs]

The were drafted ay 18, given a gun and sent to Vietnam. Are the adults?

[@tymiller9714]

I'd say not fully capable adults but certainly capable of knowing right from wrong.

[@godfathaofyo]

@@tymiller9714 18 and 19 year old are legal adults, nobody here is trying to distinguish their capabilities, hell, there's many 30/40/50/60/70 adults are not fully capable of things. the statistic "guns are the leading cause of death of children" literally exclude those under 1 year old, and include those that are 18 and 19, legal adults....makes one wonder why the inclusions/exclusions exist? Perhaps to push a narrative to help sway public opinion?

[@alexthompson9516]

Well, 17 year olds are in most states. And those age groups still can't buy alcohol.

[@Joncenalol235]

They charge them like adults when they commit crimes...

[@stevemt3238]

Dettlebach can't define a child, like SCOTUS justice that can't define a woman. Both disgusting.

[@sandramorning8901]

The ATF is not the judge and jury! Every American is innocent until proven guilty. The ATF did not afford him that!

[@stevemt3238]

This Dettelbach contributes to the negative stereotype of lawyers. He's pure trash.

[@Hallz999]

deBAFFLEd

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

its not a stereotype

[@user-pu4xj7pc2w]

*_They charge ANYONE they don’t like and it’s up to the person who is charged to defend himself from a corrupt agency!!!!_*

[@mr_unsane]

These are the facts, and they will break you and your finances over it.

[@fireballxl5328]

Hard to defend yourself when your DEAD

[@andreahighsides7756]

The process IS the punishment

[@mr_unsane]

@@andreahighsides7756 Good way to put it!

[@TheCharlesAtoz]

Dettelbach, I swear, is supposed to be a lawyer. He can't be straight with Congress?! Fire him.

[@empoweryou1]

He's(the ATF Director)is behaving just as POTUS wants him to. His answers are broad and drawn out solely to burn up Representatives brief time to question. This is a common tactic from all bureaucrats. Although I think Rep. Massie is genuinely acting in good faith, asking very important questions.

[@Chulitatr]

Why do the Repubz always interrupt a expert witness when they get an answer they don't like? $hit, the man never got a chance t answer the questions.

[@ShaggyRogers1]

He is a lawyer who can't even be bothered to learn the legal implications of his own agency's "rules". He has repeatedly informed Congress to their faces and gave them incorrect information on his agency's "rules" that would lead to them being prosecuted if they followed his own assertions.

[@aaronburson1427]

It's not Dettelbach, it's Rattlesnake.

[@empoweryou1]

@@ShaggyRogers1 💯

[@thomasgrable1746]

Apparently the capacity to provide a straight answer is not required for the role of ATF chief.

[@JI-ev9pp]

Or just about any other place of “service” in the government.

[@burns767]

Congress - Rewrite the law now so the ATF is forced to stop their raids.

[@user-hb1ui8ss5v]

The department of “just us”

[@marcusjewelry]

Those above the law don't care about obeying the law.

[@nickmad887]

HE is a DEM TOKEN we know his past with local kjds.

[@pamelagetz4550]

Unbelievable! This guy needs to not only be fired from his job but put in jail. 😢

[@bromandude1]

always nice to hear “meh I dunno” as an answer to any specific question about wtf is going on at these agencies

[@warthogA10]

Yeh, it's kinda like paying people to run your business, and just let them do as they please and never stopping them, and then constantly complaining that they're all rich and you're stuck with the bills and poor... 🤔 ... which would be a really dumb thing to do.. but here we are. 🤷

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

This has been going on for decades. REMEMBER WACO!!!

[@UpTheRa007]

Never forget ATF on April 19 1993 raised a Battle Flag over the burned body’s of women and children #Sickening

[@RonnieStanley-tc6vi]

All this is to excuse his hit squad from murder charges.

[@tjpowell9779]

The only difference between ATF and criminals is that one of them carries a badge.

[@jerrykr7kz]

WHY DOES CONGRESS NOT HAVE THE POWER TO FLATLY COME OUT AND SAY, " ANSWER THE QUESTION WITH YES OR NO, OR YOU WILL BE HELD IN CONTENPT!"

[@hemihead001]

I'm still waiting for somebody to go to prison for Fast and Furious .

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

What about WACO?

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

What about Waco?

[@gutterfalcon2912]

Sometimes it's asked What is a Woman . Maybe they should ask these Anti Constitutionalist's What is a LIE ?

[@ripvanwinkle2002]

both questions have simple well defined easy answers..

[@mal35m]

@@ripvanwinkle2002 Not if you are a post modernist who doesn't believe in objective reality. For some people "my truth" is what puts and keeps your party in power.

[@jamwayofaiken-augustarockb7643]

What a weasel

[@ronaldspins]

@ 0:50 That is if they have the right address ....so we all are in danger

[@ncrefer1]

ATF statistics show a very odd way of who a child is. When asked, he says every state has their own way to define the age. 🤦‍♂️ Well then, how did you come up with these statistics? My follow-up question would be, "Then why don't you have a state by state breakdown of the numbers, instead of throwing them all into a category of your choosing?""

[@ZaneGeeting]

No state considers 18 year olds or 19 year olds minors. That was a bald faced lie.

[@juliemorgan4937]

18 . You are considered an adult..... stop using the term children.... they always we want to save lives ... bunch of BS ... this is about taking your 2ND AMENDMENT away .... the ATF are nothing but a tyrannical dictatorship corruption Stop using our tax dollars for the ATF ... They are going against the American citizens

[@1974dormouse]

Thomas Massie is a national treasure

[@InuitInua]

"Increased compliance" There is a gross term.

[@daverumll6929]

Wow, amazing nice to know the Director of the ATF assumes that the person that purchased the gun is the murderer!

[@SimpleManGuitars1973]

Massie is one of the few bright spots on that nasty little hill in DC.

[@realitynewsbytes]

Funny how this coward says, "CONGRESS DID IT, CONGRESS DID IT" he is the one who gave it to Congress....

[@ottomatic7823]

The term: SWORN TESTIMONY has lost all of it's meaning. No ramifications for lying to Congress.

[@CSGATI]

Never gives an opinion he just cites Congress to avoid it.

[@jefftate01]

The stuttering and stammering while NOT answering the asked question infuriates me. Why do they have to be so polite.

[@tommyhooks7767]

Do you actually think that a state prosecutor is going to indict a federal ATM employee ? How many of those has happened ? NONE

[@HereIGoo]

Nobody is above the rule as they always change. Protect yourself….

[@rhll4252]

The phrase Rule of Law came into play during the Obama administration when do we go back to the Land of the Free?

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

NOBODY!! REMEMBER WACO!!!

[@HereIGoo]

This is a sarcastic statement from me….

[@stephen4763]

How a child is defined (age) is extremely important. The Dims have misused the inflated numbers when 18-19 yo’s are included. Furthermore if younger people are involved in gang activities and a death results, those numbers should be “managed” in a different category. The Dims are trying to paint this one number as a young child death as if it was a child that obtained an unsecured firearm and discharged it causing the death of another young child or himself. NO! Statistics depend on commonalities to be accurate. The ATF and Dims are muddling what gets counted and the definition attributed to that number. The number they cite as “child death” attributed to a firearm is extremely misleading and is not that high. Other causes such as drowning etc. would exceed child deaths by firearms. The Dims can’t have that!

[@wayne6512]

It's amazing to me how many of these heads of departments 'don't know' basic information about issues directly under their control. And the fact that they sit there and say that without any embarrassment, is staggering. If the private sector operated like that, all the companies would be going out of business.

[@mrskenscott9643]

'The Business'. UGGGH!!!

[@lincolnstovall9471]

The strongarmming of We The People with in the Constitution and God given Right???

[@ctoye224]

Thank you Thomas Massie!

[@roberttorrence1080]

How about let Congress make the laws

[@user-zj9md9xd5l]

They did, no one is listening to the director. He is acting on THEIR legislation!

[@leslovesliberty1776]

Thank you Thomas Massie, please don't let this rest!! 🙏

[@Cats_crystals_and_ghosts]

I’m so glad someone finally addressed the age thing. 18 and 19 year olds aren’t children in the eyes of the law and would be charged as adults.

[@goosecouple]

"The 2A makes a distinction between the Military and the People. The Military --- Regulated. The People --- Shall not be infringed."

[@reverendmorgano9659]

Militia not military. There's a huge difference between those two.

[@stevezilla68]

Militia and military are not synonymous.

[@ZincBlurr]

"Well regulated" in the second amendment meant "well equipped" when it was written. It had nothing to do with government regulations or restrictions.

[@reverendmorgano9659]

@@stevezilla68 Facts. Militia and military are entirely two different things.

[@reverendmorgano9659]

@@ZincBlurr Fact

[@Bumper776]

This man needs to spend the rest of his life in prison and the ATF needs to be disbanded.

[@user-es1pg1uh7z]

Send this ATF Director to jail immediately

[@mattgayda2840]

They intentionally include them all in the stats including justified and police interactions to bump up the numbers

[@Chulitatr]

Why do the Repubz always interrupt a expert witness when they get an answer they don't like? $hit, the man never got a chance t answer the questions.

[@user-zx3kw4lo4i]

Fire the director! He says a lot of nothing. And looks like he doesn't even know the laws.

[@brianmsahin]

Federal agencies like the ATF, FBI, Environment, and IRS Should be disbanded and let each state look after its own law enforcement, serious crime investigation and tax collection.

[@mikewubben2844]

He sounds like an activist masquerading as a law enforcement officer.

[@divinerespect309]

What's disturbing with witness don't need to look at past testimony should know what you said standing in truth.

[@user-js1ix2ce4i]

ATF must go

[@thomascsmlth9126]

Wonder if he realizes how bad he made himself look sadly I don't think he cares.

[@RedWaveGraphics]

His subordinates sitting behind him realize. Watch their reactions.

[@galveston4095]

Each time the Congress passes an Omnibus spending bill, they lose leverage and the respect over meant like this.

[@Dee88008]

Wow, Deffenbach is really nervous! 😂😂😂😂

[@zr1pja]

What I do not understand is that this guy gets a lambasting of note is despite this nothing is going to happen to him, his staff and department. Are you all doing this for show?

[@romeoat42able]

HOW, DOES THIS GUY STILL HAVE THIS JOB????

[@rickybobby7276]

Because half the country is trying to enslave the other half and this guy represents the evil half with powerful support.

[@doylegoslar2906]

Never a straight answer ATF!

[@RogerMorris-gk1zl]

COACHED BY MERRICK GARLAND, NO DOUBT.

[@rolandcyr7863]

If I had to guess prior to becoming a Federal Employee he was a stand up guy, but now he is a ruthless hack with no spine

[@edwhite7457]

Dettelbach is a real toad,

[@paulrickman7549]

Did you mean turd? Toads serve a purpose.

[@thesugardaddy7037]

How dare you insult toads like that sir.

[@DansEarway]

Massie 👏👏👏

[@lindawatters9632]

This scenario is horrific! Breaking into someone’s home in the wee hours of the morning, cutting their power and cameras, no body cams with a no knock warrant. I can only imagine how confused and terrified the occupants must have been. Known gun owner, how could they have expected any other outcome? No knock warrants need to be limited to only be used when they expect there will be no cooperation, only retaliation. This is a common sense issue which our law enforcement agencies seem to be incapable of interpreting. They seem to view every scenario as a scene in an action movie, putting officers and occupants of these home invasions at extreme and deadly risk. I am appalled this goes on in our country! Sometimes laws need to be reviewed when their outcome has an unexpected and undesirable effect.

[@1977rw]

Mic drop!

[@ttestates1]

Brandon Herrera for ATF Director!

[@Huntinghogs]

This guy is a prosecuting attorney. That’s why he argues the way he does about what he knows nothing about.

[@elramswood]

I don't understand what is so hard to understand.. "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

[@hairlessvulture87]

Send him the federal prison.

[@montanausa329]

They include everything from suicide to self defenses.

[@MediaLieDetector]

There is no such thing as an illegal gun. Source: The Constitution

[@pradenk]

Increased compliance. Just what freedoms America was founded on. The freedoms and foundation of increased compliance. Individual civil liberties??? What??? It's about increased compliance 🤦‍♂️

[@jong2359]

He won't even hear a single word that came out of his own mouth. He is the slimiest insect on the planet.

[@user-tp3hn5ul5p]

Got him!

[@josiahmccormack7502]

They like to mention Congress without ever talking to them…

[@ttfahd]

this guy sounds like a lawyer from the mob

[@Sitobambito]

By far and away the best member of congress

[@benjaminmoore985]

We’ve seen an increase in freedom is what he meant to say, not non-compliance.

[@prof113]

If only someone could explain to me how a Safer Communities Act makes communities safer.

[@jingles009]

I don't know any state that classified 18-19 year old as children.

[@theultimateninjafart]

Non compliance. Like speeding in a car. Thats a misdemeanor.

[@HotBrass-Lead]

Defund the atf SAVE AMERICANS!!!!!! SAVE LIVES!!!!!

[@scottnewton9046]

Imagine having to obtain a federal license to sell newspapers. Imagine having to obtain a federal license to start or operate a church or synagogue. Imagine having to obtain a federal license to post your opinion online.

[@alexanderelkorek]

prison

[@chrisdedmanproductions5656]

You can tell this guy is an attorney. He talks out both sides of his mouth, can't stop running his jaws because he likes hearing himself talk, and talks in circles! This guy and everyone that raided that house should be charged with murder! Period!

[@castrot2701]

I’ve watched almost all these clips of this ATF guy getting so called ‘grilled’ dude knows how to answer questions at the same time not answering questions, draining each representatives time.

[@dallaswiller]

Got him

[@2AMr1911]

Cut the funding of the ATF now!!

[@cgilleybsw]

I used to think the #1 department for deletion from the federal government was education. BATF needs to go. It's a hold over from prohibition and serves zero purpose other than harass citizens.

[@pegasus5287]

Certainly the criminal element will abide by the new laws. Who knew it was that easy?

[@davidthompson1529]

"Compliance"...Well, Mr Dettelbach. WE WILL NOT COMPLY. We do not care what laws, rules, mandates, etc that your unconstitutional agency puts forth....We are not your Serf's and will rebutt your attempts at ALL costs. Leave us alone. It isn't difficult.

[@strangefruit8776]

I can only imagine being on the left and having to make the case against gun violence while downplaying the group that contributes the most to it.

[@thomasmiller4249]

Have faith, Faith works, don't work FAITH.

[@randy-qf8pq]

2A 1791

[@danredding9299]

What is the Congress definition of a dealer Lic. required.

[@clintonturner5545]

He never answers the questions given to him. Why didn't he just plead the fifth?