Can you lose or leave your Salvation?

Some like to speak of "once saved always saved" or "the perseverance of the saints" but the bottom line is about Eternal Security.
Dr. David Allen with SWBTS is on again with Dr. Leighton Flowers to discussion the doctrine of Eternal Security. Specifically, the controversial passage out of Heb. 6 is expounded upon from one Traditional perspective.
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[@christianchris1517]

CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Video Introduction 08:12 - Interview: Comments on Malaysia 11:58 - Topic Introduction 12:55 - Hebrews Commentary 15:49 - Eternal Security 20:34 - Intermission 21:32 - Free will and Consistency 25:51 - Free will and Eternity 28:22 - Warning Texts 31:49 - Warning Texts - in Hebrews 35:45 - Warnings - To Whom? 36:31 - Refuting the Arminian View 42:55 - Refuting the Calvinistic View 47:03 - Importance of Context 48:32 - Hiatus 49:11 - Continuation - To Whom? 54:30 - Fallen Away - Discussion 56:35 - Fallen Away - Answer 1:00:50 - Scriptural Comparisons 1:01:58 - Strengthening the Arguments 1:08:12 - Continuing and Tying Up 1:12:15 - Summary - Existing Views 1:14:40 - On Impossible to Repent 1:15:53 - Good Father Analogies 1:16:38 - Challenging the Arminian 1:23:19 - Continuing on Hebrews 6 1:27:29 - Not a Fake Warning! 1:32:15 - Challenging the Calvinistic 1:34:41 - To Fearing Listeners 1:41:02 - Concluding Remarks This comment is placed under the CC0, "no rights reserved", licence. Reuse it, adapt it freely!

[@christianchris1517]

I have attentively watched the whole video (otherwise I wouldn't be able to put meaningful time stamps) and understood the points being made. Immediately after, I was compelled to re-read the text with the fresh explanation and arguments in my head, as to settle my understanding of it, and, to my surprise, IT DIDN'T FIT. For some time, reading it over and over, I tried to make the freshly heard explanation fit the text, and I was convicted in my heart that I WAS FIGHTING THE TEXT as well. That verses 4 and 5 constitute a definite identification of saints, there's no question! Why would the Spirit evoke so many aspects of salvation, if not to make sure the deeper teaching applies to them? Moreover, the FALLEN condition of v.6, is one that would require RESTORATION, REPENTANCE to be fixed, and represent TO THEMSELVES a 2ND SHAMING & CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS! Moreover, on v.8, curse and burning are reminders of the curse of Adam, and yes, the burning of hell. Moreover, on v.9, "salvation, even though we are speaking in this way" --- what is "this way" in context if not something contrary to SALVATION?? Moreover, vv.10,11 talk about CONTINUING service, and DILIGENCE as requisites for "full assurance of hope until the end", so FULL ASSURANCE OF SALVATION! Moreover, v.12 talks about the effects of the warning (so the warning is real/has teeth), NOT in terms of maturing, BUT on perseverance, on bearing desired FRUIT. Moreover, from v.12, Christians should imitate "those who through faith and endurance inherit the promises." See? FAITH AND ENDURANCE, i.e., (1) FAITH - for regeneration, (2) AND ENDURANCE - perseverance, i.e., (1) Faith as to enter IN CHRIST, and (2) Endurance as to stay/remain IN CHRIST. As soon as I stopped fighting the text and accepting what it says, an enormous sense of peace took place, and it matched all the other warning texts that came to mind! But what about the security/election to glory/all saving promises done to the believer? It hit me that salvation and promises aren't something that, as a whole, is "stamped" IN US, after we believe; rather, a condition that exists IN CHRIST --- a CHRIST-CENTERED one. I realize that Calvinism err in trying to "stamp" salvation on people that end up believing from eternity PAST. Provisionism fixes this err by correctly realizing that election is actually IN CHRIST (not in individuals from eternity PAST). UNCONDITIONAL security of the saints makes a similar error that Calvinism does by "stamping" election to glory etc. on BELIEVERS, upon their entering into Christ to the FUTURE, rather than consistently keeping the "stamp" IN CHRIST. The key is to recognize CHRIST as the anchor: "For as many as the promises of God are, IN HIM (=CHRIST) they are yes" -- 2Co 1.20. Hebrews 6.11 is instrumental in revealing that FULL ASSURANCE happens when one ENDS one's earthly life IN CHRIST!! EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW: Since all things pertaining to salvation, election for glory, security, life eternal are all IN CHRIST, those who are separated, fallen, severed from Christ LEFT THE PLACE, CHRIST, IN WHOM THE PROMISES WERE "YES". Moreover, we realize that, if a system's election to glory is "stamped" on individual believers upon their entering in Christ, which would imply their unconditional security, ERRS IN THE SAME WAY AS CALVINISM DO by "stamping" election on individual believers, rather than IN CHRIST; the difference being that in CALVINISM, the believer is "stamped" before the foundation of the World; while on Provisionism with unconditional security of the saints, right after their trusting is Christ the first time; while Hebrews 6.11 shows us the believer's condition is actually settled AT THE END of one's earthly life! Again, EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW. Glory to God!!

[@morningfog532]

Thanks for these time stamps! Very helpful!

[@christianchris1517]

@@morningfog532 Thank you! Doing it made ME have a better grasp on the points being made. Too bad though they don't fit the Hebrews text, as I explained in the comment above. (Edit: "ME").

[@Anteater23]

@@christianchris1517 So you are not a calvinist or provisionist but are an Arminian if I understand correctly?

[@Anteater23]

@@christianchris1517 How do you deal with passages like ‘no one can pluck you out of the Father’s hand’ or ‘He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion’ ?

[@dr.byronloyd4713]

Love the video. What sealed the understanding for me is understanding spirit, soul, and body. My spirit was redeemed, born again, made a new creation at the new birth (John 3:6). My soul (mind, will, emotions) is under renewal and change, being renewed in my mind with the word of God, submitting my will to His will, and bringing my emotions and feelings in line with the Word and I walk in the Spirit and do not fulfill the flesh. My body will be glorified at His return. So I may struggle and miss it in my soul but that does not affect my redeemed spirit that is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

[@JamesBrown-fd1nv]

Your spirit was "quickened" which means made alive. Your soul was redeemed and "sealed unto the day of redemption. Your body will be "transformed" into the "image" of Jesus Christ because that is what was "Predestined" before this current earth was recreated. All of these things are part of the restoration process that God determined to judge sin and secure eternity his way through his will. EVERYTHING is about free will no matter what Calvinists say, they are not the only confused group of Christians.

[@theodoreritola7641]

AAAAAA MMMMEEEENNNN

[@ronedwards8239]

This is a wonderful explanation. So many are worried they are beyond God’s grace.

[@gregorylatta8159]

Free Grace theology asserts the same thing!!!

[@theodoreritola7641]

Thats extremely sad...

[@theodoreritola7641]

CAN OR WLL THE LORD JESUS CHRIST EVER UN REDEEM HIS OWN CHILDREN AND ABORT THEMAFYER REDEEMING THEM ??? OSAS IS VERY TRUE ,Please get back with your answer

[@inTruthbyGrace]

Dr. David Allen is so helpful! I listened to this several times and will probably return to it again. Great stuff laid out here w Dr. Flowers and Allen. I hope you will have more conversations in the future.... thanks!

[@nathanaeldavidAZ]

Falling away is not a matter of being unborn but of death. The same way one born of water must continue to drink water, so those born of the Spirit must continue to abide in the Spirit lest they die and become like a withering tree .

[@billerickson5604]

NATO Can those under the law inherit the kingdom. I ask because I we walk in the flesh , we put ourselves BACK under the law of sin and death. The same “death” spoken of in romans6:23 for the wages of sin which most believe to be speaking of both physical and spiritual death. When we get saved we still face the physical death(unless Christ returns first)but if we do not put to death the misdeeds of the body BY THE SPIRIT(not by the flesh) we face spiritual death(because obviously the “life” spoken of here in Romans 8:13 cannot be physical) God bless u Nato

[@nathanaeldavidAZ]

​@@billerickson5604 Yes I think we are totally on the same page here, if we accept Christ as our Lord yet refuse to walk in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit whereby we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh we then we put ourselves back under the law of sin and thus experience spiritual death (you're right when we get saved we still experience physical death). This same truth is also expressed elsewhere in the scriptures where we are told that the whole law is fulfilled in loving our neighbor as ourselves, since love is the fruit of walking in the Spirit. As we walk in the Spirit we are molded into the image of God and God is love, in this way we can understand loving our neighbor and walking in the Spirit as basically interchangeable. This is also what James is talking about in chapter 2 when he says: "If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment." If we don't love our neighbor as ourselves (through walking in the Spirit) then we are put back under the law as transgressors of it. Paul also talks about this in 1 Corinthians 13 when he says faith apart from love means nothing. When we are born of God we receive his Spirit however if stop abiding i.e.believing in Jesus and loving our neighbor (1 John 3: 23-24) then we begin to wither and die and and our faith is dead and meaningless like a body without a spirit.

[@billerickson5604]

NATO Would u say that one who withers and dies cannot be brought back to repentance in this life? I have wrestled with this. It seems to me that there is a point of no return. That God will harden them so that they won’t repent . Romans 11 talks about grafting in again but that seems to only be speaking of those who were never saved to begin with(but were only His people in the natural).

[@nathanaeldavidAZ]

@@billerickson5604 there definitely appears to be some scriptures such as Hebrews 6: 6 which indicate that it's impossible to restore some to repentance once they have turned away. However, I think these are more severe cases in which the individuals in question truly experienced the power of God in their lives then relapse to the point to where they are beginning to express contempt for the Lord, in such cases I think it's impossible to restore them, not necessarily that the Lord won't have them back but that there hearts have literally been hardened to where they can't, as you mentioned. However, there does appear to be instances throughout the scripture of restoring brothers or sisters who have fallen back into sin. Ultimately I don't think the scriptures really make it a hundred percent clear as to when someone crosses that line, I would imagine if someone is in a place of repentance that God will always willing to forgive them. In Matthew 18: 21-22 when Peter asked how many times they should forgive their brothers, Jesus responds with 70 x 7, i think this is probably a good representation of Jesus' willingness to bear with us in long suffering provided we don't regress into open contempt toward him.

[@billerickson5604]

NATO I agree that if one CAN repent , then this one is not of those who cannot be brought back to repentance So one who worries if God would forgive them need not to worry! They are repentant so not the one spoken of in heb6. I would disagree though that I do believe it is an act of the said(unrepentant) perosn’s will BUT ALSO an act of God hardening that perosns heart(such as he did pharaoh and the Jews when Jesus showed up on the scene). I believe God coild have softened the person but instead hardened them so that they actually cannot(but only becasue of what they previously did to themself). If you look at Pharoah , his heart was hard before God did anything to it. But I believe God brought in circumstances that would only further him to do so . Used pharaoh’s OWN stubbornness against Him to make him more stubborn. I read a writing by an old saint(may have been Wesley)that demonstrates this by oned HEART as either a candle or a piece of clay . When both are put in the SAME sun , one will become soft and the Other hard .this is how I believe God can do it but yet not violate our free will. I love the analogy. We also see this in Thessalonians(?) where the man of lawlessness is revealed and GOD GIVES those who do not love the truth OVER TO A DELUSION. He hardens them, no more chance to repent because they believe the lie. I have believed Hebrews 6 I think in the same way as you mention, that these are certain believers who have experienced much of God’s power and /or MATURE believers . But could never understand it in context of previous verse talking about immature believers . Why such a radical transition ?never made sense. But after listeneig to this video and Dr,Allen I am starting to think it is really talking about immature believers who have failed to mature(though given the ability and sufficient time to do so ) . But may be only limited to those who have experienced the power of God that many of us may not have. (Signs and wonders). Just as the galation church had experienced . When Paul talks about the galation chruch falling from grace(or i believe was in serious danger of) do u think they would’ve been in this situation as well(unable or unwilling) to repent? I can say from my own experiences in my salvation that i have always seen Hebrews 6 in this way for myself. I do believe that if i (God forbid!) were to go back to my old ways that i wouldn’t be able to repent. I had some very supernatural encounters with our Lord when I first was saved (for about a month) which is why I beleive I am more “hardcore” then many. I believe it is expected of me. I knew when it was happening that most Christians don’t have those things happen and have always felt that more is expected of me. Once I began reading the Word I saw confirmation of this. To whom more is given , more required. God gave me ALOT OF GRACE. And I beleive thst FOR ME to turn from what I have been given would render me in that situation. I have NO DOUBT in the truth of the gospel. It’s been proven to me. But like Jesus said, “blessed are those who have not seen yet believe”. I’m not one of those , I think they could get away with a lot more disobedience and unbelief than me! It’s a personal thing with God.He is a person. It’s a relationship. I think many times theology tries to make it too black and white. I completely agree that we don’t know the line where one is outside of Christ and that line is different for everyone. Someone may say, how many sins can U commit and still be saved? I heard a response of a teacher say “how many hairs can I have and be shaved.?”Or “How many hairs can I have until I have a beard? “What I like to say is keep your face clean shaven as possible, if u have a beard you should worry. It’s not black and white. There is no number but there is a point where one can KNOW. Something u do might not condemn me and vice versa. Things I did in the past as a younger Christian would now surely condemn me . That’s why we must be gentle and teach and encieage one another and never condemn. We must be careful in judging one another. We cannot just look to the outward without getting an understanding on the inward and ones walk with the Lord. We cant expect a baby Christian to look real holy but likewise one who claims to be a Christian for many years shouldnt be cussing and such. We can only discern these things through conversation done in love in my opinion. Thanks for sharing my friend! God bless u

[@RichardM1366]

You are eternally saved. You cannot lose it and you cannot leave it behind. You have been justified, sangtified, and glorified. You cannot be unjustified, unsanctified, and unglorified. The prescious love of the holy spirit will not leave you. God loves us and will forgive your sins. No matter what you said or done.

[@the57student]

You have been justified, you are being sanctified, you will be glorified.

[@jdj2022]

I agree with most of that however the Bible clearly teaches those who are truly saved you will known them by their fruits.

[@theodoreritola7641]

Thank you, Holy Spirit, for convicting me back in 1983 .I know the Holy Spirit Loves to point us Christians to The precious Lord Jesus Christ. But i LOVE TO GIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT PRAISE AS WELL

[@2001BornAgain]

@@jdj2022 that theology is based on a faulty interpretation of Matt. 7, and has been promoted in pulpits for decades without anyone ever checking to see if it's really true or not. And no, it's not true. The "you shall know them by their fruits" has context. What is the fruit Jesus speaks of, is it subjective? Is it my most hatred sins, or your most hated sins, or is it hated sins that we hate together? Is it sins we find ourselves doing, and even knowingly doing? See, that's way too subjective. I can just go to Christians I don't like that do something that's a sin and I can just accuse them of being a fake Christian because they aren't bearing fruit that "I" have to approve of. If they meet MY standards, then you're a true believer, but do something that "I'd never be caught dead doing", and it's off to Hell with you, you sinner! The way to discern the fruit is based on the verse that controls the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Matt. 7:13, which says, "Enter through the narrow gate." You shall know them by their fruits. Did they enter through the narrow gate, and are they teaching others to do the same? That's the fruit. Why did those who said "Lord, Lord! hear from Jesus, "I never knew you."? They never entered through the narrow gate. What's the will of the Father? To enter through the narrow gate. What made the wise man wise? He built his house upon the Rock because...drumroll please...he entered through the narrow gate. Matt. 7:13-21 is the altar call following the greatest sermon ever preached! And what great sermon isn't followed by an altar call? Jesus : "I said all that (Matt. 5-7) to say this: "Enter through the narrow gate!"

[@theodoreritola7641]

My fav is JESUS CHRIST WILL NEVER ,,,,, UN,,,, REDEEM HIS CHILDREN,

[@SabastianDuke]

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” ‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[@JimiSurvivor]

It does not get any simpler. Even though Jesus used simple Agricultural metaphors to make His ideas PLAIN to common people, theologians have managed to contort even them into fantastic tales no husbandman of the time would have understood.

[@jeangreen432]

Loved that you shared one of my favorite Bible chapters, John 15, cuts straight to the point doesn't it. Kind of like Rev 3:5, no one likes talking aobut that one either. btw I checked out your profile and was stunned by your gifted voice and musical talent. What a treat! I was curious to know about your faith in Jesus Christ...is Monarch regarding being born again? Maybe I should have asked from your youtube page. God bless you as you draw nearer to Him

[@christiantompkins6423]

If you continue a few verses down he continues this with the saying that he has chosen you and ordained that your fruit would remain.

[@SabastianDuke]

@@christiantompkins6423 the entire passage over and over makes the point that it’s quite possible for branches to wither up and die. Those that become unfruitful are gathered up and burned. You’re creating a contradiction with the entire text because you’re reading yourself into a part that wasn’t specifically addressing you. He was speaking of the disciples that was was directly addressing at that moment. The disciples were specially chosen for a specific purpose. Either you believe Jesus was just going on a tangent of impossibilities, much ado about nothing, or he was stating that it IS possible to fall away, while simultaneously speaking directly to his group of future apostles about how they were chosen to spread this message after the cross and that they wouldn’t fail.

[@christiantompkins6423]

I will think on this but in light of what he says in John 10:28 and surrounding verses I don’t see how it could be possible for a born again believer to ever perish in any kind of way for any reason. Also in regards to what Paul talks about several times in regards to immature believers.

[@jowieacetre2661]

Dr. Allen truly live what he says, "Exegesis first before doing theology".

[@SalvusGratiumFidem]

Him drawing the parallel of Jesus telling Nicodemus he had to be reborn.. saying we can't be unborn really struck home with me

[@JimiSurvivor]

Jesus was not saying a person cannot be "UNborn" He was saying they need to be born again spiritually. Nicodemus was not talking about spiritual birth at all but about a fantastic recapitulation of physical birth. No where do we see anyone saying that the new life can never die. The parable of the seeds suggests that certain conditions must be met if the plants (new life) is to continue living. For instance it must have ample soil and water. The seed that fell among rocks and those that fell along thorns were both deprived and, as a consequence, died. Thus the new life is not reverse-born or "unborn" It dies.

[@JimiSurvivor]

So Nicodemus is the author of the doctrine of "once born never unborn" even though he did not understand what spiritual birth was? This is nonsense. He was not saying that and, in fact, the issue of whether the new life could be lost in that way was never brought up in this passage.

[@JimiSurvivor]

Nicodemus came up with this preposterous "go back into his mother's womb" scenario but he had no understanding of the new birth and could not have been the source of correct doctrine on the subject.

[@theodoreritola7641]

WillJesus Christ or does Jesus Christ EVER ,,,UN,,, REDEEM HIS CHILDREN ?

[@theodoreritola7641]

How about Jesus Christ ,, UN ....REDEEM HIS OWN CHILDREN AFTER HE REDEEMS THEM AND ABORTS THEM

[@jordanmcpherson3794]

I used to have to ask this question, too. There are millions of YT videos answering this and people get a lot of comfort. But the fact that there are so many YT channels patching this over is because people aren't "feeling" assurance. For me, it was because I was still living sexually immoral. I since have repented, and the assurance was found. Not that I am perfect. But the Spirit has caused me to train my senses where I see the itch to sin voluntarily coming at me from afar. We will have no peace in grace if we insult it with our sin in the face of grace. I am ashamed I treated grace so cheaply. No ear has heard, no eye has seen, nor has it entered into man's hearts the things that we will see when we see God. Repent!

[@golightly5121]

We believe IN Jesus for eternal life, we BELIEVE Jesus for assurance.

[@andylineberger6795]

Amen

[@timothyhodges705]

Amen, 1John 5:6-13.

[@leslieparmer9327]

We also must obey the word just believing isn't enough. Read what Paul ask these deciples in Acts19 God Bless 🙏

[@timothyhodges705]

@@leslieparmer9327 faith plus something else? Uh... No. Faith alone in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

[@golightly5121]

@@leslieparmer9327 : believing what isn’t enough?

[@billerickson5604]

The regenerated heart can be HARDENED by the deceitfulness of sin. Disobedience is UNBELIEF and we STAND by faith. If we aren’t standing, it seems to me that we must have fell. You cannot walk in darkness and have faith at the same time. You cannot love the world and God at the same time. You cannot serve two masters. God bless u who call on the name of the Lord with a pure heart!

[@billycroom9208]

Would you mind to give scripture to back that up?

[@eliotlugo-hernandez5009]

@@billycroom9208 Read the whole book of Hebrews as well as Romans 10, 1 Corinthians 11, Jude, 1 John, and 1 Peter.

[@dakotad.8609]

Hebrews 6 is actually a prooftext FOR ETERNAL SECURITY ironically LOL. It is so misunderstood. The writer of Hebrews was writing to Jews who still had a law based mentality rather than of faith and grace. This verse is basically telling them that they are no longer under the old testament law system in which when someone sinned and fell away they had to sacrifice animals to God as repentance, however now that Jesus is the perfect sacrifice, this is no longer needed, and trying to do anything similar would be like recrucifying Jesus and putting him to an open shame. Hopefully I explained it well enough to make sense.

[@seansimpson1133]

Amen

[@johncee77]

Very good explanation. And you didn't need an hour and 45 to do it! 😆

[@sheilasmith7779]

I am not a Calvinist but here's the problem I have with David Allen's argument. There are 2 elements or conditions of salvation: 1. Must believe Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and 2. I must repent of my sins. Both are a requirement of the assurance of salvation. So if I become an apostate and DO NOT repent, according to David I keep my salvation? Even though I have broken one of the conditions of salvation? The example David used to support the assurance of salvation (the Jews permanent band from the promise land) doesn't provide any evidence that these Jews were saved.....or not saved. I agree God does enact consequences, but am not convinced that loss of salvation for unrepentant apostates us not one of them

[@Steve20333]

if this isn't the best study tool on KZbin , I would love to know what is , what a great Brother this Man is ! I praise the LORD JESUS CHRIST ,I've been praying for certain answers , and boom ! Here they are ! I dont thank the Lord enough for all the miracles he does in my life ! LORD JESUS CHRIST you really are an awesome GOD . THANKYOU lord for listening to such a wretch as me , when I pray . Keep me on that straight and narrow path LORD JESUS CHRIST ,pick me up when I stumble! I pray for all my brothers and Sisters out there , who need prayer for whatever reason , may the LORD JESUS CHRIST be with you always,in every chalenge that you face .. GOD bless and keep you all . AMEN ..

[@watchmanbob3864]

Very helpful and encouraging commentary for those of us who believe but have been on a guilt trip and afraid of going to Hell because of not knowing there is a Scriptural alternative to both the extreme Armenian and extreme Calvinist views. I thank God for your ministry--both of you.

[@gregorylatta8159]

His interpretation matches Free Grace theology!!!

[@watchmanbob3864]

@gregorylatta8159 If grace is not free, it's not grace, is it?

[@gregorylatta8159]

@@watchmanbob3864 True!

[@gregorylatta8159]

@watchmanbob3864 Free Grace is a theological point of view that most correctly interprets Scripture.

[@watchmanbob3864]

@gregorylatta8159 The amazing grace of God is free because it doesn't cost us anything. "Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe."

[@SabastianDuke]

I think this is one point that I do have to disagree with You on. How can you affirm free will and at the same time believe that someone cannot walk away? Especially when you consider that there are multiple verses that claim that it is possible? Paul even wrote about the great falling away, stating that people would depart from the faith.

[@havenofear7033]

These mind bending pretzel thoughts only arise when we focus on ourselves. If salvation was our work, of course we should fear. If we believe in the character of God as described in the Bible, we know that God's love is huge. He wants all to be saved. All God's promises are true. We do not second guess someone we unconditionally trust. God is worthy of this trust.

[@jerroldwhite2741]

@@havenofear7033 work out your salvation with fear and trembling

[@trevorwest28]

@@jerroldwhite2741 You didn't finish what Paul said there... "For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure."

[@jerroldwhite2741]

@@trevorwest28 lol does that in any way discount the point that we should work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Is your point that we should have no fear of God? that our salvation cannot be rejected? what is meant by second guessing someone we unconditionally trust? Is it not written that Fear of God is the treasure of Zion? In 2 Corinthians 6:1 "We then, as workers together with Christ, beseech you also that you not receive the grace of God in vain." Behold now is the day of salvation. Now therefore fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and truth. Personally, I have no use for free will if it should cause me to sin and separate me from God, but I sin and it is my will that does it. It is God's will to forgive me when I repent and return to Him. For our conversion is in heaven; from whence we look for the Saviour, the LORD Jesus Christ Who shall change our vile bodies that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body. Revelation 3:19 "As many as I love I rebuke and chasten; be zealous therefore and repent." I don't understand why people think fear of the LORD is a bad or negative thing, From old testament to new, fear of the LORD is a positive thing, acknowledging His immutable power and might. 2 Chronicles 19:9; Daniel 6:26; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 7:1; In Romans 11:20-21 we are warned "..do not become proud but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you." Revelation 14:7; 15:4; 19:5 w/love

[@johntrevett2944]

ALL that are justified are glorified. A believer is sealed until the day of redemption and Christ loses NONE. I'm convinced, yet only God knows is that many that think they can "lose" salvation dont grasp the new birth and are in the flesh trying to merit salvation. Decisionism vs regeneration.

[@fredr7217]

My sermons are 25-40 minutes long when I preach for 38 years! I have a short attention span, so I will listen to this in bits.

[@jillianmathews3749]

Agree

[@johncee77]

You're not alone.😄People can watch a 2 hour movie, a 3 hour sports game, and a 4 hour concert, but somehow an hour long sermon is too much.

[@truthseekers1620]

salvation is a gift you can't earn it you did not earn it and you can not lose it Christ does the saving it is his grace and mercy that keeps you

[@gregorylatta8159]

None of the lose your salvation verses say you can lose your salvation!!!

[@jdj2022]

@@gregorylatta8159 not clearly. But many scriptures do tend to suggest it. I don’t believe you can but to be fair I can see why others do think that way.

[@gregorylatta8159]

​@jdj2022 Not if you know the true character of God as defined by scripture ! We must rightly divide salvation and service. If not, you are the messiah and not Jesus!!!

[@jdj2022]

@@gregorylatta8159 I said I agree. What I’m saying is without full context I can see why many think that you can though. Read my comment and understand what it says before you go arguing with me for no reason lol

[@gregorylatta8159]

@@jdj2022 I know saved people can obviously be wrong because they take scripture out of context. I was just saying I never was fooled by there false interpretation. All thanks to God. Doesn't mean I haven't been temporarily influenced by some false doctrine but the Holy Spirit pulled me back.

[@beowulf.reborn]

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God." ~ Romans 8:12-14 This is written to the "brethren" who have the "Spirit of God", and yet they are told that if they "live according to the flesh" they "will die". How can this be any clearer? See also Galatians where Paul speaks of the works of the Flesh vs the Spirit. When we are born again, we receive the Spirit of God, we are regenerated, born again, and now by the grace of God we walk by faith in the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh, but if we willfully turn back to sin (for fear of persecution, or because of hardships, or because of the deceitfulness of riches, etc.) then we will fall from grace, and make shipwreck of our faith.

[@thestig9087]

This is the same principle he's talking about. You will die spiritually, trust me you'll know it, but your still His. You just need to return to the first work. Simple trust in Christ. I've been in wilderness 17 years and what this man is teaching is so true. Hebrews isn't warning about loss of salvation but loss of Resting in the Lord. Look at all the times it talks and references rest. When we're unbelieving or sinning willfully there will be no rest. It's miserable. It's a call to return.

[@da3879]

or legalism

[@johntrevett2944]

ALL that are justified will be glorified. Christ loses NONE.

[@brandonvonbo9708]

@@thestig9087 what if you dont return?

[@truthseekers1620]

faith is a gift salvation is a gift you can not earn it you can not lose it Christ does the saving and he will keep you don't purposely sin cause you will be judged and lose rewards but will be saved as through fire there are only believers and non believers cause God loses no one

[@polskigirl8547]

Scripture states us to run the race....finish the race, an athlete does not win the prize... IF YOU DON'T FINISH THE RACE YOU DON'T WIN THE PRIZE.... perseverance, endurance are marks of an athlete....

[@20july1944]

As Jesus said, "he who endures to the end *will be* saved."

[@cfoles1]

The prize is not salvation. Salvation is a gift. The prize for running the race is how you will be rewarded in heaven

[@allentomas3417]

@@matt_h_27 really, these librarians just read too much fiction

[@marteld2108]

You can lose your salvation. The Bible is very clear on that. Its a truth we dont like to accept. “REMAIN IN ME and I will remain in you.”

[@gwine2nine52]

if a man does not abide in him he is cast forth as a branch which proves he was not one of his branches. read it carefully and in context. john 15 vs 5 and 6

[@gwine2nine52]

@@abideintheWord u interpret vs 2 as if it were vs 6 and that's wrong. vs 2 says every branch in ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away.. NOW LISTEN CAREFULLY..if vs 2 said every branch in ME that beareth not fruit is cast forth as a branch and burned I would agree with you..... BUT Jesus did not say that. u are conflating vs 2 with vs 6. also in vs 6 he says if a MAN does not abide in him...not if YOU(DISCIPLES) abide not in me. see the difference?? hope this helps

[@gwine2nine52]

@@abideintheWord look we can debate scripture till christ returns...you say I say and we will nvr agree so let me ask u a biblically logical question...was the thief on the cross OSAS?

[@gwine2nine52]

@@abideintheWord by the way vs 16 proves your interpretation of 2 thru 6 is wrong on in my opinion and I don't believe your a deceiver and liar. I respect people on both sides of the subject

[@gwine2nine52]

@@abideintheWord you are correct he did not have time to lose it nor does all the people who have repented on thier death bed(final hour) SO IT BEGS THE QUESTION....if God is just and is no respector of persons why would he save some in thier final hour with NO chance of losing it and save those who has time to lose it??? I would GLADLY trade places with the thief on the cross if I believed I could lose it and so should you!!! he should b considered one of the LUCKIEST people in history to those who think they can lose it..its not a hypothetical it's logical truth...... also I do stick to scripture. that why I believe if saved always saved just anyone who has repentance in thier final hour

[@a.k.7840]

For me, Hebrews 10:26 - 33 are crystal clear. Consider these first 3 verses from that selection: "For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Heb 10:26-29, HCSB) This seems incredibly clear to me that a person who was sanctified by the blood of Christ can apostasize.

[@dakotad.8609]

Yea it is crystal clear that it is talking about those who reject the gospel and have no more sacrifice for sin because Jesus is THE SACRIFICE for sin. There is no other, so rejecting it means you get God's wrath.

[@a.k.7840]

@@dakotad.8609 yup, crystal clear that this person was sanctified by the blood of the new covenant, but regarded it as profane, trampled on the Son of God and insulted the Spirit of grace. So they ultimately rejected it after receiving it and being sanctified by it. They apostatized.

[@dakotad.8609]

@@a.k.7840 Where are you seeing that in the text? It seems you are combining texts or something. I am talking about Hebrews 10. I reread the chapter and what you are saying is not even remotely in there. The passage is about sacrifices and how Jesus is the ultimate perfect sacrifice basically.

[@a.k.7840]

​@@dakotad.8609 Heb 10:29 - "How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean _the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified,_ and has insulted the Spirit of grace?" When I read this, it's clear as day to me that this person was sanctified by the blood of the new covenant, the blood of Christ. In my opinion, the blood of Christ sanctifies believers, not unbelievers. Hope that helps.

[@dakotad.8609]

@@a.k.7840 Without going into a long thing, Jesus' blood actually atoned for the sins of the whole world, so the reason people actually go to hell is not because of sin but because of unbelief, in which faith is needed to access God's grace and to become born again etc. While sin is atoned for, people are still spiritually dead and require glorification which can only be attained by faith in Jesus. I suppose the interpretation of the verse kind of hinges on how you choose to interpret the word sanctified there.

[@christianchris1517]

I have attentively watched the whole video and understood the points being made. Immediately after, I was compelled to re-read the text with the fresh explanation and arguments in my head, as to settle my understanding of it, and, to my surprise, IT DIDN'T FIT. For some time, reading it over and over, I tried to make the freshly heard explanation fit the text, and I was convicted in my heart that I WAS FIGHTING THE TEXT as well. That verses 4 and 5 constitute a definite identification of saints, there's no question! Why would the Spirit evoke so many aspects of salvation, if not to make sure the deeper teaching applies to them? Moreover, the FALLEN condition of v.6, is one that would require RESTORATION, REPENTANCE to be fixed, and represent TO THEMSELVES a 2ND SHAMING & CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS! Moreover, on v.8, curse and burning are reminders of the curse of Adam, and yes, the burning of hell. Moreover, on v.9, "salvation, even though we are speaking in this way" --- what is "this way" in context if not something contrary to SALVATION?? Moreover, vv.10,11 talk about CONTINUING service, and DILIGENCE as requisites for "full assurance of hope until the end", so FULL ASSURANCE OF SALVATION! Moreover, v.12 talks about the effects of the warning (so the warning is real/has teeth), NOT in terms of maturing, BUT on perseverance, on bearing desired FRUIT. Moreover, from v.12, Christians should imitate "those who through faith and endurance inherit the promises." See? FAITH AND ENDURANCE, i.e., (1) FAITH - for regeneration, (2) AND ENDURANCE - perseverance, i.e., (1) Faith as to enter IN CHRIST, and (2) Endurance as to stay/remain IN CHRIST. As soon as I stopped fighting the text and accepting what it (PLAINLY) says, an enormous sense of peace took place, and it matched all the other warning texts that came to mind! But what about the security/election to glory/all saving promises done to the believer? It hit me that salvation and promises aren't something that, as a whole, is "stamped" IN US, after we believe; rather, a condition that exists IN CHRIST --- a CHRIST-CENTERED one. I realize that Calvinism err in trying to "stamp" salvation on people that end up believing from eternity PAST. Provisionism fixes this err by correctly realizing that election is actually IN CHRIST (not in individuals from eternity PAST). UNCODITIONAL security of the saints makes a similar error that Calvinism does by "stamping" election to glory etc. on BELIEVERS, upon their entering into Christ to the FUTURE, rather than consistently keeping the "stamp" IN CHRIST. The key is to recognize CHRIST as the anchor: "For as many as the promises of God are, IN HIM (=CHRIST) they are yes" -- 2Co 1.20. CHRIST is the anchor, not the BELIEVER! This is why every warning text of the NT talks about the believer remaining IN CHRIST, in one way or another. "5 I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." -- John 15:5,6 Hebrews 6.11 is instrumental in revealing that FULL ASSURANCE happens when one ENDS one's earthly life IN CHRIST!! EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW: Since all things pertaining to salvation, election for glory, security, life eternal are all IN CHRIST, those who are separated, fallen, severed from Christ LEFT THE PLACE, CHRIST, IN WHOM THE PROMISES ARE ETERNALLY "YES". Moreover, we realize that, if a system's election to glory is "stamped" on individual believers upon their entering in Christ, which would imply their unconditional security, ERRS IN THE SAME WAY AS CALVINISM DO by "stamping" election on individual believers, rather than IN CHRIST; the difference being that in CALVINISM, the believer is "stamped" before the foundation of the World; while on Provisionism with unconditional security of the saints, right after their trusting in Christ the first time; while Hebrews 6.11 shows us the believer's condition is actually settled AT THE END of one's earthly life! Again, EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW. Glory to God!!

[@christianchris1517]

@ChristianRebel I did not quite grasp what you mean in your comment, especially on the first part, on the subject of unrepentant sin and where did I get that / some connections from, as my original post doesn't mention sin at all, and I believe I made all needed citations, so... I'm really puzzled here.

[@christianchris1517]

@ChristianRebel It clarifies a lot. Thank you! God bless you!

[@williambunter3311]

@ChristianRebel You make some good points CR. I find it odd that it was agreed by these two brothers that a believer cannot apostasise, and that only an unbeliever can do so! Surely apostasy refers to one who actually believed the gospel and then decided to reject it. You put this point well when you argue that someone who has never believed just remains as they always are, and ask how they are therefore supposed to have done this action. I am reminded of the seed that fell on rough ground and died away. There was an initial belief in the gospel, but it was shallow and short-lived. The part of the teaching on this video that I found most unsatisfactory was brother Allen's dealing with the words: ' it is impossible to renew them again to repentance'. He tries to brush this clause away by saying that hyperbole is often used in the New Testament. But he does not attempt to explain it in any way - he completely avoids tackling it. It seems that when many people refer to 'repentance' they think of it as repentance of sins they have committed, or for their backsliding. But surely Repentance is to do with belief, not conduct. When somebody is initially saved it is not that they repent of their sins (though they may feel sorrow for their sins), but rather that they repent of their unbelief. They leave behind their false beliefs and put their faith in Christ and in Christ alone. It is true that unbelievers can feel regret and painful guilt for things they have done, but that is not Christian repentance. Any thoughts on this, brother? When the Lord sent the twelve apostles out and bestowed upon them the power to heal the sick and exorcise demons, it is not said that Judas would be the exception. It is surely possible, as you suggest, that he was initially a believer. As for crucifying Christ afresh I suggest the meaning may be that when an apostate - a former believer - subsequently denies Christ, he is deciding to take his stand once again with the world of unbelievers who rejoiced in the crucifixion of Christ (and who pour scorn on the gospel message and on believers). I am not a calvinist. I reject every one of the five points of tulip, as I believe each and every one of them is unscriptural and anti-scriptural. I am not as gracious as these brothers are trying to be towards calvinists. But having said that I wonder if their graciousness is a little overdone? I have read and listened to very many calvinist preachers and teachers and what I have been very aware of is not just an unscriptural, faulty, man-made and cruel theology but a notable degree of slippery dishonesty and arrogance. The calvinist will repeatedly employ analogy in lieu of Scripture (invariably the same old worn-out analogies which serve to illustrate their teachings without in any way explaining or substantiating them). This is because the calvinist just cannot support his theology from Scripture. And he knows it! One well-known calvinist writer, while preaching to a calvinist congregation in America about calvinism, made the astounding statement: 'we are not concerned about our logical inconsistencies; we are not concerned about our contradictions'. This writer is very skilful at debunking false theologies, yet when it comes to his own contradictions he states that they don't bother him! Calvinism seems to weave a spell upon its adherents, just as the Roman Catholic and Watchtower Society theologians brainwash their own poor dupes. When I began to watch this video I felt quite confident that I would receive fresh knowledge and insights about the subject of eternal security and personal assurance from these teachers. Ironically I have been more impressed by the comments disagreeing with them (including your own). I hope you get to read this comment, as you wrote yours eight months ago. God bless you.

[@williambunter3311]

@ChristianRebel I'm pleased you picked up my comment. I really consider questions such as once-saved-always-saved?to be sometimes a hindrance if approached in the wrong way. Don't get me wrong, brother, the question is very important, but each person who has doubts about their salvation needs to go to the Lord in prayer to seek a PERSONAL assurance. If one marshalls arguments one way or the other from gathering together all the scriptural references, it can lead to confusion. Some verses seem to argue for osas, while others warn of the possibility of apostasy. This does not mean that the scriptures are in any way contradictory (they never are), but that we are perhaps wrongly phrasing the question. Salvation is by grace through faith alone, but there are examples, as we have already agreed, where initial belief does not ensure salvation. So although it is true that once saved is always saved, this is not the same as saying 'once believing always saved'. Like you, I know some who have made a profession of faith in the past, and who still believe they are saved, but who have no interest in reading the bible and never any time for or interest in prayer, and actually, in one case I know of personally, scoff at Christians who do. These people still maintain that they are saved. And this is because they are putting their faith in their faith, rather than in Christ. They remember their one-time profession, and do not realise that we are saved THROUGH faith, and not BY faith. Because they parrot the phrase 'once saved always saved' they convince themselves that their one-time profession has settled their salvation for eternity. In doing so they are treating faith as a work, something the calvinists wrongly try to accuse all non-calvinists of doing. Anyone who seeks personal assurance, or reassurance, of their salvation, must seek it from the Lord in earnest prayer. He is able to guide the backslidden believer into restored joyous fellowship with Himself. And He is able to help us to rightly divide the scriptures so that we can see there are indeed no contradictions therein, but sometimes subtle nuances to be grasped. Well, I didn't intend to write such a lengthy comment, bother, but sometimes my fingers tend to 'run away' with me! God bless you.

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@ChristianRebel as John tells us those that went out from us were never of us . You asked how can one be an apostate if they were never saved . One who claim belief and falls away from that state of MIND and then speaks against the truth of CHRIST . GOD bless you my friend .

[@andylineberger6795]

I love to listen to Dr. Allen Seems like a genuine guy

[@abashedsanctimony154]

He's not

[@irenicpelagian7096]

I think the weakness in Dr. Allen's appeal is trying to argue so strongly for *maturity* being the focus, rather than the salvation that is obtained through perseverance. The message is to believers, yes, but the message is not to fail to persevere, otherwise they will never obtain the promises. In fact, the author of Hebrews states it quite clearly, that he was convinced (on their part) of better things; things that accompany salvation ~ not simply maturity. "For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose *end* is to be burned. But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany *salvation,* though we speak in this manner. For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the *same diligence* to the full assurance of hope *until the end,* that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through *faith* and *patience* inherit the promises."

[@sanctifiedbytruth4364]

Irenic Pelagian excellent point, and the writer says he was confident, which is to be strongly persuaded or convinced. But this does not mean he was certain. Confidence and certainty are two completely different things.

[@zulu3779]

Nice opinion

[@joeregan.]

I see no tension between 2 verses like "no one will pluck you from my hand", and "you must persevere to the end to be saved". They agree to me. I definitely don't think Jesus forces you to follow Him. If you choose to give up before the end, that has nothing to do with someone plucking you from a hand. It's you jumping out

[@evanu6579]

Too many people miss the analogy of Jesus being a shepherd and having His sheep that follow Him. He keeps His sheep like a good shepherd where no thief will pluck them out of His hands. No bear, no lion, will either. He’s the good shepherd. But His sheep are those who hear His voice and they follow Him. That’s what makes you His sheep. If you no longer hear His voice and refuse to follow Him then are you still His sheep?

[@evanu6579]

@@thesportsplexbyhealthcaree2729 I agree. And John 10 doesn’t put you as the man that is trying to pluck. You’re a sheep in the analogy, not a man. God bless.

[@eduardopeguero5376]

That would make you the finisher of your own faith. “Author and finisher of your faith”

[@joeregan.]

@@eduardopeguero5376 What would make you the finisher of your own faith?

[@eduardopeguero5376]

@@joeregan. if you choose to give up before the end- that would imply you “finished” your faith.

[@AllDayML]

Thanks for the awesome chat guys! Praise God!

[@DerKirchenhocker]

Doesn’t it really boil down to this: If I can exercise my free will to respond to God’s call and receive His gift I must also continue to exercise or maintain that faith until death. I should add that as we get older that exercise of faith becomes easier as we get to know God better. “I suppose if I have the ability to choose then I have the ability to apostatize. God won’t hold me hostage”.

[@wtom04]

+ DerKirchenhocker After one is saved, continuing to exercise and maintain faith until death is not an automatic guarantee. One does not have to continue in the faith until death to prove to oneself and to others that he/she is indeed saved or to maintain their salvation from slipping away. Many fall away in the faith and die in that very state of mind, but they are still saved. We are not kept eternally secure by our so called "unfailing faith" which will no doubt at some point in our lives be susceptible to faltering and failure, but we are kept eternally secure because we have believed upon an UNFAILING SAVIOR who does not go back on His Word and promise - John 5:24, John 10:28-29, Ephesians 1:13, Romans 8:38-39, 1 Corinthians 3:15, 2 Timothy 2:13. Not all believers who get older will find that exercising faith in God becomes easier because there are many who get seriously ill or go through some kind of crisis that weakens their faith especially when their prayers go unanswered and they become angry, discouraged, disillusioned and fall away. There are many saved Christians who apostatize, but doing so does not undo their salvation. Self-righteous Calvinists/Lordship Salvationists and Arminian/Lordship Salvationists and all false works based preachers would of course falsely teach that if saved Christians become discouraged, disillusioned, angry at God and curse God and fall away from the faith and even die in that state of mind that they were either "unsaved to begin with"- (Calvinist interpretation) or "will lose their salvation" and go to hell - (Arminian interpretation). Both views are wrong and both groups will no doubt teach that these Christians have committed the "unpardonable sin" and take Scriptural passages out of context and eisegete such passages like Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-27, John 15:2,6, Luke 12:42-46, 1 Corinthians 9:27, 2 Corinthians 13:5, Philippians 2:12, etc, in an attempt to prove their point. Apostate Christians who never return to the faith will experience chastisement from God and other unpleasant consequences in this life including sickness when they fall into sin and wickedness and some may have their physical lives terminated by God where they will be taken home prematurely - 1 John 5:16-17, but they are still saved. They will lose out on ETERNAL REWARDS at the Judgment Seat of Christ, but they are still saved as eternal life is a free gift that is not of our works. Only ETERNAL REWARDS are of our works - 1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

[@minorsingingairhead]

Well said. Praise God for his unfailing promise and love.

[@GrahameGould]

You are appearing to ignore that God changes your nature. It is the flesh that thinks of it as a loss of freedom. The spirit rejoices that we're slaves of the Lord.

[@DerKirchenhocker]

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

[@GrahameGould]

@@DerKirchenhocker so you ignored what I said, quoted a verse our of context with an assumed meaning and without telling us what your point is. Typical lack of intelligence and integrity from a Calvinist.

[@BK-yz7px]

When are you and Jonathan Pritchett going to debate this issue? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@sanctifiedbytruth4364]

B K I don't think Leighton holds to the "perseverance of the saints" firmly. He made a comment to this effect in another one of his videos on this topic. The only reason to debate this topic is when you are coming from a firm position of total acceptance on your position.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

@@sanctifiedbytruth4364 any person born again or not, can perservere in false doctrine away from Christ

[@nathanaeldavidAZ]

1 Corinthians 15 “[1] I remind you of the gospel which I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.”

[@CalebBrianBooth]

Are you citing this verse to support perseverance of the saints or to challenge the doctrine? I take the 'if you hold fast to the word I preached to you' as an indicator that apostasy is certainly a possibility.

[@clbadvincula7256]

Amen Heb 6: 9-12 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

The old man was false, you can be turned away from Christ and serve lucipher after salvation and regeneration. He didn't understand that we will be able to sin during the millennium reign as well

[@jasonholmes5994]

"Being saved" = you're using the wrong translation, dude. Alexandrian manuscripts sometimes lead to improper understanding of God's word. This is one of those times.. 🙂

[@nathanaeldavidAZ]

@@jasonholmes5994 Why does Paul follow up Sozo with the conditional conjunction "ei" translated in English as "if" that is "if you hold fast."

[@jeffreybomba]

Hebrews I once held/taught Conditional Security and have never agreed with Calvinism, and yet without scholarly influence came to the conclusion that the warnings are to those who were never saved. The Mosaic Hebrews are described as having KNOWLEDGE that is not united with FAITH. Paul makes the case through Romans that salvation HAS ALWAYS hinges on faith. He also made the case that the covenants of Circumcision and The Law did not grant salvation, but access to the truth and the honor of baring the Messiah. He relates it to baptism as a ritual that can be done with no effect. One of the primary drivers used to skip past these details is what I call Brethren Theology, which is the idea that since the epistles are almost all addressed to believers, that the writer either had divine knowledge that their original audience was 100% saved, they are simply ignoring those who profess faith and are not saved, or the a mere profession guarantees salvation. How could the NT writes make any such distinction is Jesus told the APOSTLES not to rip up the tares because they might mess it up? Why would Paul go to great lengths in Romans 2 to tell us that we do not have the authority to condemn? How could those he ordained become enemies of the gospel? How could John not know people were never of us until they depart? Jesus said, “do not say in your heart who will ascend and descend.” The only option the APOSTLES were given was to accept someone’s profession until they proved to be a danger to the body (Paul boots the young man sleeping with his step mother) or they walked away. I believe the reason why the surrounding and not the soils/heart of the 3rd seed is not described because WE cannot know for sure. The word unfruitful used there and in 1Peter 1 can mean sickly or unable or dead. What does Jesus tell THE WORKER to do for a sickly plant? Fertilize and water it, but let the owner of the field decide when to rip it out. Such a plant may wither and walk away revealing an unchanged heart of stone that was NEVER of us. It may continue to con us and even display what we think is fruit, but when they approach Jesus in heaven and even list the “gifts of the spirit (of Satan really)” they have done, they are told I NEVER knew you, not I KNOW YOU NO LONGER. Your words and rituals do not save you, nor to they begin a process of salvation that you may or may not finish. God judges the heart knowing it better than you, His judgements cannot fail, and He knows the beginning from the end and does not give out temporary eternal life.

[@livingwater7580]

God didn't make the new covenant with sinners he made the new covenant with his son. We enter this covenant through faith or believing in what Jesus accomplished for us not what we have to accomplish for him. People just want to boast about their holiness or performance and accuse others of not walking as they do.

[@eduardopeguero5376]

Yes amen it takes us completely out. The Good news takes away our pride.

[@SpielbergMichael]

This is fantastic! This is the best, most comprehensive and most cohesive explanation for the warning in Hebrews 6 I’ve ever heard. It makes so much sense! Thank you! May God bless you both abundantly!

[@theodoreritola7641]

Calvinist Have a different God The way i look at John 3,16 My bible say for God so love the world THAT MEANS EVERYONE that he gave his only begotten Precius SON THAT WHO EVER BELIVES IN HIM WOUD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVER LASTING LIFE. Thats he real God to me

[@IronSharpensIron127]

​@@theodoreritola7641 I certainly believe they serve a false god as well.

[@cltarr1]

Brother Leighton, The title "lose or leave" is very catchy. We are so thankful for our security in Christ, but I pose the question. Is the concept of apostasy "a farce," a misunderstanding, an impossibility? Should we edit that word from Christianity? I still believe the Bible teaches it's real. Thank you for for exploring the great subject of salvation. I'm cheering for you.

[@hopeseeker97]

After 40 plus years of being in "church" and in various denominations, I have come to this conclusion: Jesus Christ is the WAY of salvation. As long as you repent and believe (you must not only change your mind about sin, but you must TURN from it and turn to Christ who is the way, the truth, the life). It makes no sense to say once saved always saved if that person lives in sin, gets deceived and chooses another god, and/or departs from the faith. Why all the warnings not to be deceived? To be ready? To make sure you are IN the faith? I've seen far too many professions of faith, too much legalism and moralism as well as experienced false movements and have been deceived by many false teachers with their doctrines of demons. Why did Peter need his feet washed if he was totally clean? Why did only half of the ten virgins make it when all had oil? The reward of our faith is the salvation of our souls from God's wrath and we will be given our eternal inheritance as well as rewards for the fruit we bore for Him. If you "backslide" and ignore the convicton of the Holy Spirit, you will get on the wrong path and head the wrong way...thus leaving the one who is the way, the truth, the life. Why 1 john 1:9 after salvation if once saved always saved. I have only heard of Calvin recently. I have learned to seek THE faith by reading THE Word of God. No more denominations, or books, modern bibles, or movements with men's names attached. When something glorifies a man or is focused on that man...question and discern! Most important point of all is: walking in the Spirit, depending on Him. He will comfort, sustain, guide, discern, convict, and will always points us to God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@hopeseeker97]

@macolyis why reply in huge caps as if yelling at me? The bible states about departing from THE faith or falling away from the faith. How can you depart or fall away if you were never in it to begin with? Look at who these Scriptures that warn about being deceived and falling away are written to: believers! We are to endure until the end. We are on the strait path which means we are headed a different way than the broad way. But you can receive a gift and later reject it and adoptions can be revoked even inheritances can be taken away (disinherited). Why does Paul state that someone who ministered with him loved the world and went back to it? Just as a dog returns to its vomit. Why does the bible warn to examine yourselves to see that you are in THE faith? Just some thoughts to ponder. I need to look up the references, but modern Christianity gives us false assurance. Don't take my word for it, seek the truth for yourself. Thanks for the reply.

[@jeremymccglasson8338]

@macolyis So are you saying that you do not sin??? 1 John 2:1 Roman's 7. We have a flesh man and a spiritual man. The flesh is born of sin. We were born of our parents who were born under sin, which makes us born in sin under the curse. Our spirit is born of God, who is perfect and can not sin, which makes us not able to sin in the spirit. We still have sinful flesh and will always sin. Those with strong faith will sin less and those who are weak in faith with sin more. Our flesh, which is under the curse and sins will go to the grave and our spirit which is perfect will go to Heaven to be with the Lord. If you keep staying in sin then God, our Father will chastise us as His children. If we choose not to listen to His chastisement then He can take our life early, but not our salvation. Our salvation is free by believing in Jesus and what He did for us (the Gospel).

[@jeremymccglasson8338]

@macolyis So, like I said, do you still sin???

[@jeremymccglasson8338]

@macolyis 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. If you must repent of your sin in order to be saved, then it is no longer a free gift, but a debt that God owes us for our works. And if you must repent of your sin for salvation then you would be saying that the Corinthians were never saved or the Galatians, or many people in the Scriptures.

[@emenem6131]

Sorry I was all over the place in my last comment. I deal with a heart condition that keeps me thinking of all these spiritual things constantly and I don’t feel I have much time to reach people. Love you all we all have to deal with this life good and bad.

[@MrMurfle]

Seems to me there's a fatal flaw in the 'loss of rewards' proposition. The 'land' in vv7-8 is the person who has fallen away, not their works. It is the land that is cursed and burned, not its produce. Thus, whatever 'fallen away' exactly means -- and it must surely mean some degree of diminuation of faith or faithfulness -- it is the person that suffers Kingdom loss (i.e., salvation).

[@theodoreritola7641]

Does Jesus Christ EVER ,, UN,,,REDEEM HIS OWN CHILDREN AFTER HE REDEEMS THEM ?

[@danielglidden2893]

Thank you both, Dr. Allen and Dr. Flowers, for addressing this issue. I am reading the epistle to the Hebrews right now, trying to see it from Dr. Allen's perspective, which is not entirely new to me, but which I struggle to be able to consistently see throughout the book. In your view, in chapter 3, what does it mean to be Christ's house "if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end" in verse 6. What does it mean in verse 12 to have an evil heart of unbelief? What does it mean to "depart from the living God?" What does verse 14 mean, "we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end?"

[@eliotlugo-hernandez5009]

"IF" is always conditional, so to sugar coat these verses to mean the Christians cannot forfeit their salvation is violating linguistic common sense. It is not, in my opinion, a matter of losing once salvation but a matter of God denying entrance into His Kingdom. Read Romans 11, 1 Corinthians 10, and 2 Peter 2:1. Those false prophets which Peter mentioned were bought by the Lord. So, if there were bought then there were Christians. Also, an apostate has to be a Christian since departing from the truth implies explicitly that there were in the truth.

[@jeffreybomba]

You are on the right track by beginning your under of chapters 6 and 10 by understanding the foundational example of the Mosaic Israelites set forth in chapters 3 and 4 (which the typical believer in Eternal Security does not) The questions is, what is their example? We know that they saw God’s miracles, they followed a ritual given to them, they crossed the Red Sea (a picture of baptism), they were given the Law and made a profession of faith. We also see most of them doubting and turning at every corner. Do a set of words and actions saves us or force God to saves us? Do we enter a process where we might be saved? Does God actually know the heart and beginning from the end? Pay close attention to the mixed tenses of Hebrews 3:6,14 (I will detail one because they are both similar). ”but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are (in the now) if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end (based on a future action).“ It does not say, “whose house we will CONTINUE to be.” These two verse confirm the same thing 1John teaches at least a half dozen different ways, which is that those that leave never were, and those that profess faith and yet do not show the God given gifts of agape and a new heart that causes obedience, they DO NOT and HAVE NOT known him. These same Jews that professed belief had EVIL HEARTS of unbelief, and even more pointedly, their KNOWLEDGE was not united with FAITH. If they did not have faith (according to God’s perfect judgment of the heart) then how were they saved and then lose it? Just like them, we can be sent a preacher (Moses), given the truth, see God work, experience His calling, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, and even profess faith, but if God does not judge your heart as humble and contrite, then He is under no obligation to save you. Like the 2nd seed, whose souls/heard is rocky and not actually changed, we can see what we think is growth, but trials and tribulations prove otherwise. Look back and read the KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS passages. Are they about us being able to judge who ascends and descends, or are they about discerning false teaching? If it about condemnation then why does Jesus tell the APOSTLES they might mess it up and pull out wheat? Why does Paul tell us in Romans 2 that we do not have the authority to condemn? If the writers of the NT did not have the authors to condemn, then when they address their letters to the brethren, are they making a statement that they know everyone in those churches were saved, or are they making the assumption until they prove otherwise? As a former vehement defender of Conditional Security, I once pointed to 2Peter 2, and like many others I did not see the details that did not fit the pre-supposition, mainly that the false teacherS you assume must have been saved if was allowed to teach, were BORN TO BE CAPTURED AND KILLED, and THEIR JUDGMENT NEVER CEASED. How can they be simultaneously condemned and saved for some period of time?

[@2001BornAgain]

I don’t understand why it can’t be apostasy as it’s normally interpreted. It serves to make the argument to grow up even stronger because even if you do apostatize, you can’t lose your salvation. That’s what was hindering the believers from maturity, fear of losing their salvation. So the author went to the extreme case of apostasy to prove that we are secure because we can’t get saved again, because it would imply that Christ’s death was insufficient, and have to put him on the cross again, thus putting Him to an open shame. And knowing that you are secure in Him drives people to more obedience because that massive weight is taken off their shoulder. In other words, even if someone is born again, if for some reason they apostatize, they are still a child of God. You can’t “renew to repentance “ someone who already “repented from dead works and put faith in God.” (A passage they skipped over but is essential to understanding the text). Peter apostatized three times in one night, but never lost his salvation. As a matter of fact, it was Jesus who came looking for him.

[@andrewdalton5988]

Thanks for this thoughtful discussion! I sincerely love and respect these gentlemen and the good work they do. I concur with Dr. Allen’s interpretation of the participle παραπεσόντας in Hebrews 6:4, namely, that the “fallen away” are truly believing brothers who have fallen into serious sin and have not repented. Of course, Scripture distinguishes lesser sins from “sin that leads to death,” often called “mortal sin” because it has supernaturally mortal effects (1 John 5:16-17). In my view, these immature Christians, who have been truly regenerated, are currently “lost” and “dead” (cf. Luke 15:32). That is, they have fallen into a state that makes them liable to eternal condemnation, unless they repent. Unfortunately, Dr. Allen’s never demonstrates the key point, namely, that regenerated Christians can never forfeit totally or finally the state of grace or-to phrase it positively-that regenerated Christians necessarily attain final salvation, i.e., the glorification of heaven. In fact, he counters his own conclusion by showing that natural birth and supernatural birth are analogous. To be sure, regeneration is indeed a work of God by which the old man receives resurrection-life, the slave becomes a son, and the unconsecrated building becomes a holy temple. This watershed cannot be undone. Once a son, always a son! Once a temple, always a temple! Amen! But then Dr. Allen leaps to the conclusion that regenerated Christians are guaranteed to attain final salvation. That’s quite a non sequitur, as his own analogy bears witness. For newborn babies who receive natural life, though they cannot reenter the womb, can forfeit natural life. Analogously, reborn Christians who receive supernatural life, though they cannot undo this reception, can forfeit supernatural life. Similarly, a man rescued from the teeth of the crocodile, though he cannot undo this rescue, can freely jump back into crocodile-infested waters. Jesus says explicitly that a son can squander his inheritance, thereby becoming “lost” and “dead” (cf. Luke 15:32). So, while “once saved, always saved” is problematic, a better alternative would be “once made a son, always a son.” A son might forfeit his birthright, blessing, or inheritance, and several OT figures shed light on this recurring motif: Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, Naboth and Ahab. Israel, God’s firstborn son, inherits the promised land, but many suffer exile. Several Gospel passages build on this background: the prodigal (younger) son squanders his inheritance (Luke 15:11-32); the wicked tenants murder the heir to seize the son’s inheritance (Matt 21:33-46); the rich young man asks what he must do to inherit eternal life/the kingdom of heaven (Matt 19:16-30). According to Paul, Christians are “coheirs with Christ” because the resurrection-life that Christ inherits is our inheritance too, “provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him” (Rom 8:17). In sum, a theological thread which runs through Scripture is that the possession of one’s eternal inheritance is ultimately contingent upon one’s behavior. Scripture attests in many ways that one can forfeit good standing: sons of the kingdom can be ousted into the darkness of damnation, consecrated temples can be desecrated and destroyed, brothers can be excommunicated, God’s sheep can get lost, sailing ships can get shipwrecked, the kingdom can be taken away from fruitless sons, fruitless branches can be cut off, etc. Of course, they can be forgiven too if they repent. Yet, not a single verse of Scripture teaches that regenerated Christians can never forfeit totally or finally the state of grace, or that they necessarily attain final salvation. Dr. Allen incorrectly supposes that John 6:39 and 10:28 ground the dogma. But the first citation only affirms that Jesus loses none of his own, not that none of his own ever gets lost. The second citation only affirms that no one snatches Jesus’s sheep out of his hand, not that none of his sheep ever strays of its own accord. Rom 8:29-30 was also cited, but this verse only says that justified Christians have been glorified, not that their future glorification cannot be interrupted. The dogma of “once (initially) saved, always (finally) saved” is being presupposed and carried into Scripture, not being derived therefrom. Dr. Allen did such a nice job pointing out that salvation, Scripturally speaking, breaks down into three moments: we have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. But then he gratuitously reserves “salvation” to the first moment, “sanctification” to the ongoing process, and “glorification” to the final goal. Why not follow the text and recognize that all three moments are “salvation”? An important point went unmentioned in this excellent conversation. When discussing “the sin of a believer,” a linguistic clarification is necessary. Can a believer sin? It is much like asking if a solid can be liquid, or if a virgin can have sexual relations. A solid QUA SOLID is not and cannot be a liquid. But a solid can obviously melt, thus becoming a liquid and ceasing to be a solid. Likewise, a virgin QUA VIRGIN does not and cannot have sexual relations, but a virgin can obviously abandon her virginity by having sexual relations. In the same way, a believer QUA BELIEVER cannot sin. For Scripture presents sin and faith as mutually exclusive categories. But a believer can make a shipwreck of his faith and fall into sin (1 Tim 1:19). Put simply, if one believes, one has eternal life (cf. John 5:24). The corollary is true too: if one does not believe, one does not have eternal life. It follows that, believers who commit grave sin, thereby expressing unbelief, forfeit eternal life. Some might object, saying, but it is nonsensical to say that one who has eternal life forfeits it, for then such life is not "eternal." In response, one must examine the Greek expression, "eternal life" (ἡ αἰώνιος ζωὴ), which is not exactly equivalent to "everlasting life." The Greek word for “eternal” is derived from the word for “age.” Believers presently participate in "the life of the age to come.” Of course, there is nothing lacking in divine, supernatural life, for it is the very life of God. But since our creaturely share in such Life is contingent upon belief, and since belief is something we can abandon, such Life is something that we can forfeit. To put it somewhat crudely, Christ-life is like a never-dying battery which believers attain as a gift through faith. Though the battery itself can never die, creatures can let go of it. There is a big difference between "having eternal life" and "eternally having eternal life." Finally, I’d like to address the charge that those who profess the possibility of forfeiting and regaining the state of grace are inconsistent with Hebrew 6:4-6. It is said that, in calling fallen-away sinners to repentance, we deny that “it is impossible … to restore them again to repentance.” Yet, it is untrue that we deny this. One who has fallen into sin must repent for oneself. We can exhort the sinner to do so, since this is the only means of reconciliation, but we cannot restore them to repentance ourselves. To this point, Mary Healy’s commentary is helpful: “Hebrews, however, is more likely referring to a person who persists in sin and out of hardness of heart rejects the very ground of repentance, God’s offer of salvation in Christ (see 2:3). Perhaps the point is that there is nothing one can do for people who are in such a condition. As long as they maintain their present attitude, they are beyond the reach of any pastoral efforts. Although there is the danger that they will not come to repentance, and they are ground that “will soon be cursed” (v. 8), it is not impossible that they will turn back. But unless and until they decide to do so, there is no way to reach them.”

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

All that intellectual mess and you still missed the mark. Inheritance is not a salvation issue, it concerns rewards, you had to have know this no? I didn't read the whole thing so forgive me if I missed something, but it seemed to be a salvation issue to you. The Gospels although have plenty of Christian application, are not written to the body of Christ. They are written to Jews. Jesus preached the Kingdom Gospel, his grace was not available till after the crucifixion. Repentance is not something that can restore salvation, you cannot gain it through repentance alone, nor could lose it for not repenting of any sin. Repentance is a change of mind not an overt act. Many of the Lordship Salvation preachers prove this by confusing - Repent and be baptized Acts 2:38 as proof text that one must "forsake their sin" before receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. This is such a ridiculous notion, even from the POV of a secular person who would not understand the concept of the Holy Spirit but possesses basic reading comprehension. You cannot receive the Holy Ghost by preforming a work(forsaking sin), Ephesians 2:8-9. So how would you forsake your all your sins anyway? Would you be given a probationary week to show yourself sinless, then get greenlit for the Holy Spirit? This is patently ridiculous from any standpoint of scriptures, yet these hellfire preachers are all over YT yelling it from roof tops. Can you imagine thinking you can do something to attain salvation from a Holy God!

[@andrewdalton5988]

@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 For Jesus, inheritance is most certainly a salvation issue. The young man asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” (Mark 10:17). Jesus did not respond, “Silly young man, eternal life is not a matter of inheritance.” Instead, he told him to keep the commandments so that he might possess the inheritance of eternal life. And do not think “inheriting” eternal life is only on the lips of Jesus’s questioners. Jesus himself said, “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will _inherit_ eternal life” (Matt 19:29). Furthermore, Jesus tells a parable which certainly regards our final salvation: “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, _inherit_ the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt 25:34). Finally, you present a false dichotomy between final salvation and rewards. These are not mutually exclusive categories. In fact, in Scripture, Jesus parabolically describes salvation as a _misthos_ (Matt 20:8), which is a “reward” (cf. 5:12; 5:36; 6:1f; 6:16: 10:41).

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

@@andrewdalton5988 I actually stopped reading because you wrote an entire thesis in the original comment. In all your intellectual glory, you missed the whole point. This is why Jesus said unless you can humble yourself like a small child, you cannot inherit God's Kingdom. However, you also never make mention that Jesus was preaching only to the circumcision, Jews. Jesus was not preaching to saved Christians, they didn't exist yet. His gift wasn't available yet. Who can have the holy spirit sealed in them until the Day of Redemption? A saved Christian, that's who. You must rightly divide, you already know this though right? The Prodigal Son did lose, but gained his father's love in the end of the story, to use that as a comparison to losing your salvation is patently absurd. Even the children if Israel were purposely made lost for 40 yrs, are they not going to be saved? You seem to have an IQ that leads you away from the spirit and more towards the flesh, theology. If you can lose your salvation, friend you would have already. What did Jesus say to the young rich ruler after he told him how he kept the commandments, now to be perfect, go sell it all and follow me. What did the apostles say after that, how is it possible for anyone to enter the Kingdom of God, and they responded to make it clear, hey we left everything for you! So does this mean the rich ruler cannot enter in? Now look at Matthew: 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. They were clearly concerned about how high Jesus made the bar and they ask, who can be saved! When Jesus says all things are possible with God, he means even that rich ruler can be saved. Now when they asked about how they gave up everything for him, what will they receive, he clearly makes a huge distinction, they reign over the 12 Tribes with Christ. Now do you honestly think you are going to receive this high of a reward? No, this is reserved for the ones who died for Christ namesake. They gave up everything for him, did you ? Did you forsake your family for Christ, no, and you do not have to, you are saved by grace through faith. You cannot lose your salvation, not even if you fall away from the faith. Even if you do not believe, he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. Your comparison of the father son analogy is stating that a son can lose his inheritance surely, but does he become disowned by God, God forbid. Even your own comparison is clearly talking about rewards, not salvation. If I defy my father to the point of breaking his heart, which I have done before, am I no longer his son? Of course not! How absurd. You cannot be unborn like you said.

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349 (1) He was still right. (2) YOU said "Inheritance is not a salvation issue, it concerns rewards..." (3) Andrew answered this by quoting Mark 10:17: "The young man asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I DO to inherit eternal life?” (4) Rather than acknowledge this you complained that he gave you too much to read but had you read ONLY this you would have seen that it disproved your assertion (5) Then you took the role of a Pharisee saying that Andrew was not humble enough to believe and inherit the Kingdom. Now you are the judge of men's souls (6) You suggest that Jesus did not call people to obey Him, that obedience is equivalent to the ceremony of circumcision but I don't remember Jesus ever commanding circumcision or that His new covenant followers eat kosher. Jesus did expect his people to keep the moral law but His law went deeper (i.e., not even looking at a woman with lust) (7) When you say Jesus only spoke to the circumcision you make the gospel which Isaiah prophesied and which Jesus said must go to every nation into another gospel that would later divide the Body of Christ into two people

[@destroyingtheworksofthedev9349]

@@JimiSurvivor The moral law is the 10 commandments - no one keeps them. That is why Christ died. By the law shall no flesh be justified - Gal 2:16. We are not under the law but under grace. If you complicate this, you are not saved yet. If you are not saved by Grace alone - you are not saved yet. Christ told us what his commandments were, believe in the one whom he sent and love one another. We only love one another because he loved us first not because we love him. Read 1 John's entire epistle. The will of the Father is how you take the narrow road John 6:40. Yes the sermon on the mount was not Jesus evangelizing but telling the same Jews who wanted him crucified how serious the law was and how they were not keeping it. Have you plucked out your eye? Have you sold everything? Have you taken in a stranger? No? Then you are not "following him". So no, we are not under the moral law.

[@artemusbowdler7508]

I you are maintaining your faith, you are eternally secure; if you are not maintaining your faith, you are not eternally secure.

[@artemusbowdler7508]

@Janaina Ribeiro Indeed

[@theodoreritola7641]

WHEN Jesus Christ ,,,,, GIVES ... you ,,, EVER LASTING ...LIFE HOW LONG IS EVER LASTING LIFE ? How can Jesus Christ UN REDEEM HIS OWN AFTER HE REDEEMEDS THEM ? WOULD you BE BRAVE ENOUGH TO ANSWER JESUS CHRIST.IF HE WAS TO ASK YOU THESE QS people like u dont trust JESUS CHRIST alone

[@kessler19]

Hi there, thanks for doing this! Indeed I found myself position-less for some time concerning this since I believe in eternal security but also came from a church with a strongly Arminian base of teaching. As such, I lived as a Christian for over 7 years fearing for the safety of my soul but yet also finding the grace of God at the end the same way some of the saints of old like Luther and Wesley narrated in their own writings. I found such through sermons from reformed pastors and teachers, and as such for a period see myself as an unconvinced Arminian flirting with Reformed theology, but unable to fully accept how reformed teachers push doctrines like "Regeneration preceding faith" and the extreme deterministic views therein. In my struggles, I found your set of expositions more palatable as there is no outright rejection of predestination even as you assert the free will and choice of man to believe. Having watched up till 1h 20 min of your video, I'm not sure if some of the any other Arminian proof texts have been covered- including Rev 3:5, a challenging one which supports that Jesus could of His decision and conditionally blot out believers' names who used to be in the book of life. Also, do you also affirm dispensationalism?

[@alejandromagnobarrasa9244]

Dont be weak! The Christian life has never been about doctrine and especially not theology. Doctrine is teaching, and that was the lies the pharisees fell into respecting men and words in a book more than God who is above all scriptures. Theology is satan's trap. The enemy is I'm charge of all schools so he gets people to debate this nonsense in his arena. Live The Life With Christ. HE IS THE WAY. What does it matter what this guy thinks. No body has an ounce of wisdom or understanding. Look at how weak and dependant your post is. Christ is our freedom and your relying on some idiot who doesnt even respond to you to teach you. Some times it feels like it would be better For God to destroy us all. I dont care if I die with you were all one body your weakness means people around you are weak, and this idiot is only making us weaker. Of it weren't the body of Christ we would for sure perish just like Israel who trusted men rather than God. Gross. Father fix this for Your Son. How long will these evil supposed leaders keep decieving the Body of Our Beloved

[@wishyouthebest9222]

Everytime I think I found an answer to the osas question I read some comment and think we'll never agree. It's like there is no rest and joy to find in salvation when we have to stay in a state of terror losing it and yet the body of CHRIST never stops to take my relief in an instant, telling me JESUS work is enough but not really.. LORD pleasw have mercy on us. Let us not ad nor abstract from what is good in your eyes. I have to trust you because I can't trust myself. Please keep us, in JESUS name. Amen

[@beatrizescalera1137]

This is how I feel too😢

[@wishyouthebest9222]

@@beatrizescalera1137 I pray GOD gives you relief from your anxiety

[@rebekah5870]

Amen

[@ontologicallysteve7765]

What's the name of the song/singer or band that plays in all of the intros? Always find myself humming along, but always forget to ask. Thanks for theses uploads, Leighton. They've pulled me out of suicidal tendencies that Calvinism perpetuated. Don't ever stop. You're helping people (even when it feels all you ever get is blowback and criticism).

[@TKaramali]

I wonder who sang this rendition, but the original is called Am I Wrong by Nico & Vinz

[@RUT812]

God bless you!

[@patcandelora8496]

This was extremely helpful for those of us who have been stuck trying to navigate between the Arminian view and the Reformed view. I feel like a weight has been lifted! Thanks gentleman.

[@sunshinegirl1967]

I'm at the 1:30 point now and I must say I'm disappointed in this interpretation, that it's about loss of rewards. What about "he who endures to the end will be saved?"

[@JimiSurvivor]

The OSAS study Bible reads "He who endures to the end will be saved [but if they do NOT endure they will STILL be saved]. In the margin it offers an alternative: "the REWARDS of he who endures to the end will be saved"

[@sunshinegirl1967]

@@JimiSurvivor in my opinion that's dangerous - adding a word to scripture that was not there. That's twisting scripture in order to stuff it in to Calvinistic interpretation. I've even heard one person who was a lifegroup leader in a church I used to go to that Jesus didn't really mean that if we do not forgive others from our hearts we wouldn't be forgiven. But that's exactly what was said!

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@sunshinegirl1967 I hope you understand that I was being sarcastic. What I said is in effect what the OSAS teachers are saying

[@sunshinegirl1967]

@@JimiSurvivor I thought so 😊

[@sunshinegirl1967]

@@JimiSurvivor See how sneaky that wording is? It's just like the devil to add a word which destroys the original meaning. Sneaky and deceptive. All of us can be fooled into hearing what we want to hear! Just a few weeks ago, I was almost fooled by someone pretending to be the channel creator. Same picture and name! And he told me something I wanted to hear. But God blessed me with 2 friends who were able to see what I could not snd show me. I clicked on the scsmmer's icon snd it said no videos no subscribers and joined 2 hours ago. Snd he had the same icon as the real creator. I learned something!

[@timothyhodges705]

What is a true indicator of apostosy? Lack of church attendance? No church participation? No fruits? If a person "BELIEVES Jesus Christ is the Son of God, he has the witness of God in him." 1John 5:10. If a man can lose his salvation? "... there is no more sacrifice for sin, but a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that consume the adversaries..." Hebrews 10:27,28, as was mentioned by Dr Allen in this broadcast. So it appears nobody can get re-saved if he loses his salvation.

[@billerickson5604]

I believe SANCTIFICATION is still a salvation issue. Heb12:14. ... without sanctification NO ONE WILL SEE THE LORD.

[@allentomas3417]

You damned dirty satanic, bird, sure! How you gonna see the Lord, boy

[@allentomas3417]

@@reynaldodavid4755 did i seem harsh at all? ye all see, God sanctifies people when they believe properly, sure: Death and Its Aftermath If a person dies, the life force he had is gone and he no longer exists anywhere in any form. He stays dead (figuratively, “asleep”) until he is “awakened” from the dead by the Lord Jesus. All dead Christians will be awakened at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ to meet the Church in the air and be judged for rewards. Old Testament and Tribulation believers will be awakened at the coming of the Lord to the earth. Everyone else who has ever lived will be awakened after the Millennial Kingdom and judged for either everlasting life or everlasting death. The only hope for all those who have died is their resurrection from the dead by the Lord Jesus Christ, himself the “firstborn from among the dead” (Col. 1:18). I am a believer, not a typical religious christian, far from the garbage they put forth. God has given life to all and his offer is to have an eternity with him, a bonus, or life extension, you may call this, to all who care for such, we all have this hope presented to us, this is a good God, no threats just a loving offer, that was provided by his Christ, or refuse to believe and live this current life and die at the end, without any hope for the extension, free to all, for Jesus Christ paved the way for it, yet we all must freely choose. We know already that this natural life will come to an end, is this all of what God intends, not even close, eternity is great with God's family of care and concern and power to sustain us all, i like this great creator God, for he is that awesome for us! This is a true saying: Romans 10:9,10. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@allentomas3417 That is a lot of bitter condemnation directed at someone who has merely quoted the scriptures

[@allentomas3417]

@@JimiSurvivor - maybe you are missing: that sanctification is part of what God gives us, in Christ, at the time of salvation, so now you can understand, if you choose to.

[@deepjoydeb4330]

The "no one" here is not you but others. Pursue peace with all PEOPLE without which no one (PEOPLE) will not see the Lord.

[@TheBibleSays]

⚫ "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (Jesus, in John 15:6) You must first *_be_* a branch before you can be "cast forth as a branch." And obviously we *can* be "cast forth" after becoming a branch. Jesus did not say "once a branch, always a branch." It's amazing to me that anyone could conclude you're still "saved" after being "cast off as a branch" and "withered" and "cast into the fire" and "burned." Simply amazing . . . but people will believe what they want to believe. Jesus clearly warned what would happen to servants who returned to sin: ⚫ "But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Jesus, in Luke 12:45,46) "Once saved, always saved," with "eternal security"? Apparently not. Sins "all paid for, past, present and future"? Apparently not. That servant was going to pay for his sins himself. The apostle Paul had the holy spirit. Paul clearly refuted "once saved, always saved": he stated it was possible for him to revert to a life of sin and therefore be rejected . . . thrown out . . . a "castaway": ⚫ "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Corinthians 9:27) There's a message there for all who have been misled to believe that *having* the holy spirit is a guarantee of your salvation. We must remain in repentance, being *led* by the holy spirit (Romans 8:13,14) and "walking after the spirit" (Romans 8:1) . . . not just _having_ it and ignoring it. The apostle Paul warned that Gentile believers - even after being "graffed" into the "vine," - could be "cut off" the vine, just as the "natural branches" (the Israelites) had been broken off: ⚫ "Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, *take heed lest he also spare not thee.* Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, *if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."* (Romans 11:19-22) If, after overcoming sin through knowing Jesus, a person then returns to a life of sin, "the latter end is worse with them than the beginning": ⚫ "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Peter 2:20-22) Here is another warning "if" about returning to a life of sin: ⚫ "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26,27) *_Can you lose your salvation?_* Trick question, because it presumes you *_have_* salvation. However Jesus said we must endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22) . . . and we have not endured to the end. Christians need to understand justification (now) vs salvation (later). Paul wrote that justification and salvation are different things, at different times (Romans 5:9). While we abide in Jesus and "walk after the spirit" (Romans 8:1) we remain in justification and are "in His goodness" or grace (Romans 11:22) -not under condemnation. While in justification we have "the hope of salvation" and are "appointed . . . to obtain salvation" as Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 5:8,9. We have many warnings not to fall away from justification because if we do, we'll forfeit that "hope of salvation." We'll miss our appointment to receive the promised gift of eternal life (1 John 2:25), at Jesus' "revelation," His return (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). Upon receiving eternal life at Jesus' return, then you will have eternal security. Short of receiving eternal life you will perish, very much unsaved. ⚫ "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it." (Hebrews 4:1) Here's more of the many warnings not to fall away. Note the "ifs" with conditions: ⚫ "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10,11 ) ⚫ "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14) ⚫ "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Colossians 1:21-23 ) Another "if": we must choose to be led by the holy spirit: ⚫ "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:13,14) It IS possible to fall away, even after being made a "partaker" of the holy spirit! There would have been no point in writing the next passage if it were impossible to fall away: ⚫ "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6) We can "fail of the grace of God": ⚫ "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled" (Hebrews 12:14,15) Our names CAN be blotted out of the book of life: ⚫ "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 3:5 and 22:19)

[@rebeccaince9060]

Jesus loves you all and is coming soon! ❤️ if you haven’t repented and turned from sin and accepted Jesus as Savior believing He died and rose again for you, today is perfect and scripture says that today is the day of salvation!!

[@WomanattheWell]

AMEN sister

[@bill_y4762]

well said. Way to bring it back to the simple gospel.

[@a.k.7840]

The problem I have with the notion that you cannot freely choose to apostasize, other than scripture, is that it actually can cause you uncertainty of your salvation. Consider the following scenario: A 20 year member of your church decides to renounce Christ and turn back to a life of sin. Some one who believes you cannot apostasize must conclude that either they were never saved or they will be saved despite renouncing Christ. But let's say the apostate during those 20 years showed all the same signs of being saved that you yourself witness in your own life, perhaps even more signs. How then can you logically conclude you are saved? What's your proof to yourself that he was not saved and you are? Or will you say you can both accept and denounce Christ and still be saved?

[@acutelogic2353]

Andrew, I know this is a 3yr old post, but perhaps others will read it . In 1 John 5:13 John says "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life". John also says , "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One ... Have a clear conscience before God, seek forgiveness when necessary, and (Rom 8:16)16 "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" God will give us a confidence through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit bearing witness to our relationship with Him that we are saved.

[@a.k.7840]

@@acutelogic2353 thanks for your reply. One of my sticking points about scripture is that part of it's tranformative power lies in its relatability to the human experience. In life, we experience people leaving their long held faith. If we tell Christians that this isn't possible, we're setting an unrealistic expectation for them and not preparing them for such a possibility occurring in their own personal lives. In light of the fact that each view can make strong scriptural arguments for itself, I prefer to err on the side of caution. I don't begrudge my brothers and sisters for adhering to eternal security, I have a dear friend who does and we debate the topic once in a while, but we love each other earnestly. May God bless you and yours richly. 🙏🏻

[@acutelogic2353]

@@a.k.7840 Well put Andrew. I too have had many Calvinist friends over the years. There are people who live above their theology, and there are those who don't live up to it. The trouble is that this doctrine of Eternal Security has caused great division in many churches, because those that hold to it now days seem to be very aggressive in winning converts, within established churches. Anyway, thank you for your thoughtful response.

[@rlVan-mc3wq]

This has been the best discussion that I’ve ever heard on this subject. Thank you 🙏

[@mywatcheswithben]

Another example of a disobedient believer is 1 Kings 13, the man of God who warned Jeroboam but then ate when the Lord forbade him to eat, and was killed by a lion for his disobedience to God. The passage doesn't say he lost his salvation, but God punished him severely for not keeping an explicit command.

[@danielcartwright8868]

I'm not sure if I buy his interpretation or not. Why would God punish people by not permitting them mature? Also, I would point out that the word "crucify" is in the present continuous, and it could be argued that it is only while they are crucifying Christ again that it is impossible to be renewed to repentance.

[@billerickson5604]

Daniel Cartwright I don’t think He’s punishing them by not letting them mature (though that is the result)) but the punishment is CUTTING THEM OFF because they DID NOT mature when they had every ability and time to do so. So it ends up being no more CHAMCE to mature because no more GRACE. Peter says the same thing about the necessity to GROW. (2 peter1). It is also the JOB AND GOAL of the church. we should be more concerned about the spiritual needs and health of the body rather than the temporal . Sadly most churches have it backwards and even the same with their “friendship evangelism “ and social gospel. We must not just make sure that WE are growing but the OTHER SAINTS as well and also those who DO NOT YET KNOW THE LORD. . That’s the greatest act of love for our brothers and mankind we can walk in! God bless u friend

[@TimothyFish]

You're missing the point. It isn't saying that they are actually crucifying Christ but that they are holding to a doctrine that would require Christ to come back to earth to be crucified again. The fact that Jesus sat down on the right hand of God after he was crucified rather than offering himself again and again is evidence that we don't need him to be crucified again.

[@karollisa7022]

I can see Calvanism making a person get so upset that they give up on their faith. How awful.

[@timothydavis1885]

Youre right. I did. Thank God He led me back into the fold.

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

Great work from both gentlemen. God bless you both and your ministries.

[@theodoreritola7641]

CAN OR WILL Jesus Christ EVER ... UN ...redeem his own children and abort them ? PLEASE awnser fast

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

@@theodoreritola7641 NO ! All those that the Father has given into Jesus' hand are secure, and nothing in creation can take them out of His hand, and as they themselves are part of creation they can't take themselves out of His hand either. They can, however, backslide and lose much of the blessing and reward that God wants them to have. Many will have their works tested and it will all be burnt up as it were. They themselves will be saved but they will have no reward other than the salvation. Still it is better to be a doorkeeper in the Father's house as far from the centre as possible, and yet be saved than to be among the lost.

[@theodoreritola7641]

Totaly AGREA alot of peoplethat dont belive to BELIVE JESUS CHRIST ONLY FOR SALVATION I say well does Jesus Christ, , un, ,redeem his own children then ? i get very few answers backthey dont belive OSAS that makes Jesus Christ a liar in John Ch 3 vs 16

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

@@theodoreritola7641 Well said.

[@russelljones2305]

The Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers did not teach Eternal Security. There is a group that did teach this false doctrine and that was the Gnostics and Augustine who blended it into Christian thinking. The common tool the Gnostics used was to misinterpret the words of Paul and contradict what Christ had stated in the gospels.

[@totalityofscripture1001]

So according to this guy all those who died in the wilderness went to Abraham’s part of Hades? Even those killed by serpents and those swallowed up by the earth? Don’t know if I buy that

[@omnitheus5442]

Yeah I think it is a stretch myself. The sons of Korah account as well as those who were speared through sleeping with Balaam's prostitutes actually makes me unconfortable as a hermeneutic. I think some of those in the wilderness would have been saved but as a covenant people all suffered because of the way the majority acted.

[@totalityofscripture1001]

Josh Smith agreed. It seems to be a little too much collective universalism for me and I don’t really know how you’d square it with something like Ezekiel 18. Looks like an inconsistent position.

[@hollygrace1929]

Specifically, Dr. Allen did not say ALL Israelites who left Egypt were saved, only those of faith, the majority at that time. It simply amazes me that God would save any of us! Think of the bronze snake lifted up on a pole that saved all who simply had enough faith to look at it! Hebrews 6 is so very well & simply explained by Drs. Allen & Flowers, that it matches what we know about the children of Israel encountering choices to either cling to God in faith, look at that serpent on a pole; or some who choose not to. The writer of Hebrews wanted these believers to not lose heart, despite heavy persecutions, and trust Christ enough to be fruitful despite persecution. Sure, they could deny Him yet still have His loving salvation; but why? Could they trust Him and get through the persecution? Could they bear fruit instead of quitting? The first generation out of Egyptian slavery were not the best examples of maturing faith. They had daily miracle after miracle, yet hardened their hearts against trusting God. Result? Total loss of reward in getting to the Promised Land. Total loss, they were so close! Unbelief robbed them, not of eternal salvation, but of reward that they deep down wanted. They are an example to us of a soil growing thistles & thorns. Had they held their faith in courage, they would have been the soil bearing fruit.

[@totalityofscripture1001]

Holly Grace so what does “but they didn’t lose their salvation” mean?? So he didn’t say it verbatim but the implication is there. You even imply it in your response. If their salvation wasn’t taken then they were all saved. Potato potato.

[@omnitheus5442]

@@hollygrace1929 I disagree as it doesn't square off on everything and the Bronze snake account only happened once. How do you look at the sons of Korah and those Israelites taking Balaams prostitutes into their tents? Seems the majority of men got into this. The hardened heart thing does not square off with the rest of Dr. Flowers hermeneutic if you use it this way in the Exodus pilgrimage and yet switch it up for the Exilic time. These sort of systematics need to flow across both testaments seamlessly. I also do not think this is compatible with first century Judaism either (often overlooked by most theologians trying to read in their own world view rather than a biblical one). **EDITED**

[@jasonholmes5994]

I'm a non-denominational Bible-believing Christian. Let's look at qualifiers for the claims made at 30:30 John 10:28 is conditional of verse 27. Jesus says "my sheep FOLLOW me". THAT is why your salvation is secure in verse 28. It's because you abide in Christ (see John 15). Remember that Jesus said: If any man (or woman) would come after (follow) me, you must take up your cross DAILY and follow me (Luke 9:23). The qualifier for Philippians 1:6 is verse 5. It says: "For YOUR FELLOWSHIP IN THE GOSPEL FROM THE FIRST DAY UNTIL NOW;". Verse 5 clearly indicates that your fellowship in the gospel until now, is what qualifies you for God still working in you in verse 6. Romans 8:28 and following does NOT say that "once you're saved, you're always saved"; that's called EISEGESIS. God foreknew who would choose him. Not that He "looked down the corridor of time", but rather, that He rules outside of time. Therefore, He can see from the beginning until the end, all at once. Note that verses 38 and 39 state that nothing can separate you from the LOVE OF God. It does NOT say: "nothing can separate you from your salvation". I have studied the Bible from a very young age, but have yet to find ANY teachings that support or promote "once saved - always saved" doctrine within the pages of Scripture. The Bible ONLY teaches eternal security for those who are ABIDING in Christ. No, your walk with the Lord is not a work meritorious of salvation, because Romans and James both make it CLEAR that faith is NOT a work. We are ONLY saved by grace through faith (in present tense). Eternal security is sometimes compared to Noah's ark. I love that analogy, because even though they were sealed in by God, ANY of the occupants of the ark could have jumped ship at any time (had they chose to do so). Would they still be saved from the flood? Of course not! So, what makes anyone think that they CAN'T abandon the ship of faith? Especially when the Bible says that you CAN! Here's an example from Scripture: In Paul's letters to the Colossians and to Philemon, he briefly mentions Demas as a fellow believer. However, in his second letter to Timothy, Paul says that Demas has forsaken him (because of his love for this present world). This ties in with James 4:4 which says that whoever will be a friend of the world is the ENEMY of God. From what I've seen studying Scripture, salvation is ALWAYS presented in PRESENT TENSE. Exegete God's word without interjecting presuppositions! 🙂

[@golightly5121]

Fruit is not the evidence of salvation. The confession is. Romans 10:9 ‘That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.’ The ONLY way for you to know if someone is saved is to ask them if they have trusted in/received/believed in Jesus for eternal life.

[@a.k.7840]

Actually, even then you can't know for sure. You have to take their word for it. Only God knows for sure. ;)

[@golightly5121]

Halogenic : They know for sure if they have trusted in Jesus for eternal life. Do you know for sure that you have believed in/received/trusted in Jesus for eternal everlasting life?

[@golightly5121]

are saved

[@Popexify]

@@a.k.7840 Thats what I call human prejudice, a very common thing upon people who we can't rely on.

[@anise3564]

It’s not a head faith though the head is involved. Faith must rest in the heart. Many reject perfectly sound reasoning that Jesus is God and died for their sins simply because they do t WANT to live the way God requires.

[@aitornavarro6597]

If believers are regenerate by their faith, are born again and can't be unborn, in other words cannot apostasize. How do we explain that some believers walk away from God or in some cases even become atheists? Isn't that apostasy??

[@ericgatera7149]

So much word gymnastics to deny the obvious. Dr. Allan fails to successfully prove that reject means reject, burn at the end means burn at the end. 'But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected and is a curse, whose end is to be burned.)' - Hebrew 6:8. His lost of reward views is even less convincing than the Calvinist Once Saved Always Saved perspective. The context is indeed service, maturity and rejection of the bad servant; hence entailing final salvation (Matthew 25). He can't just assume that because maturity and servanthood is the motif of Hebrew 6 that therefore Salvation is not connected to it. After all, Jesus did connect service and final salvation (Matthew 25:12, 30, 45-46). Dr. Allan has done what he accused Grudem to have done ... too much jumping through hoops.

[@rtgray7]

Eric. Jesus "did connect service to salvation" because he was burying the Jews under the law. The oil and talents are metaphor for the Holy Spirit but Jews didn't understand His parables. He also told them to "pluck out eyes" and "cut off limbs" but we don't do that do we? The good news of the Gospel is exactly this: No more sacrifices! No more works! It's no longer what we can or can't do but what He has already done! So the parables are a picture of our salvation under the New Covenant (post cross, after resurrection) The five virgins with oil were welcomed to the marriage because of what they had(oil/Holy Spirit) not because of their "service". "Final salvation"? A study of Hebrews 10 teaches that Christ sacrifice was the last and perfect sacrifice that makes those who are sanctified forever perfect because His sacrifice was once(one time) for all(all sin). Therefore if we are IN CHRIST, we are seated with Him safe and secure! This is why earlier in Hebrews(speaking obviously to Jews who had been under works based Jewish Law for centuries) the author told them to "repent from dead works". Keeping the law is an insult to Christ perfect, holy sacrifice.

[@ericgatera7149]

@@rtgray7 thanks for your feedback but I am afraid you arguing a different point from what I raised. My comment lies squarely with this interview which is not a discussion about the Law and the Grace. Matthew 25 is not about the Law and the grace issue but rather faithfulness of Servanthood and the final reward or rejection from the Lord. All ten virgin had oil but only 5 of them kept having them up to the wee hours while the other 5 didn't. If you are correct that the oil is a metaphor for the Holy Spirit, then clear only 5 kept having it while the other 5 no longer had it even though they used to have it. Hence proving exactly the point I had already mentioned - final salvation is intrinsically linked with the perseverance of the servant in his loyalty to the Lord who bought them by his precious blood once and for all. There is no escaping it.

[@rtgray7]

Ok my final comment is just trusting you are saved because that and that alone will determine your "final" salvation. Not trying to be coy, just seriously concerned that you are conflating law and grace. Jesus was born of a woman under the law(Gal 4:4) and his teachings to the self righteous Jewish leaders like the Pharisees was to teach them the opposite of what you are saying. Their law keeping(works) could never save them but His burden is easy and His yoke is light. Hebrews teaches the same to Jews once again telling them and us that there are no more sacrifices for our sin. Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice and our sin problem relative to our salvation is finished. Jesus didn't cover our sin, he took it away. It' gone. Heb. 10, John 1:29. Behavior (refraining from sin, doing good) for the Christian is obviously important and should be taught. But not so as to earn or keep our salvation that our Lord has paid in full. I used to hold your view but, thank God, I now understand and accept that I am safe and secure IN CHRIST. God bless.

[@ericgatera7149]

@@rtgray7 , this is not an issue of conflating grace and the law. I know clearly the difference. Again, the video being discussed is not about what you keep bring in the discussion. My reaction to it is legitimate based on the Words of the Lord himself in Matthew 25 unless one think that Jesus was teaching his disciples to be under the law. And I also flirted with your views in the past but thank God I now know better. God bless you too. :)

[@thinkaboutit7664]

Eric Gatera and Wang Chung - yours is an excellent example of how to disagree graciously! And I don't agree with either of you ;-)

[@a.d.marshall2748]

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Only what God says matters. Sealed. All the "I thinks" are worthless.

[@christianchris1517]

Thank you so much for the in depth discussion of Hebrews 6!!

[@christianchris1517]

ONE YEAR LATER REVISITING THE VIDEO: I have attentively watched the whole video and understood the points being made. Immediately after, I was compelled to re-read the text with the fresh explanation and arguments in my head, as to settle my understanding of it, and, to my surprise, IT DIDN'T FIT. For some time, reading it over and over, I tried to make the freshly heard explanation fit the text, and I was convicted in my heart that I WAS FIGHTING THE TEXT as well. That verses 4 and 5 constitute a definite identification of saints, there's no question! Why would the Spirit evoke so many aspects of salvation, if not to make sure the deeper teaching applies to them? Moreover, the FALLEN condition of v.6, is one that would require RESTORATION, REPENTANCE to be fixed, and represent TO THEMSELVES a 2ND SHAMING & CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS! Moreover, on v.8, curse and burning are reminders of the curse of Adam, and yes, the burning of hell. Moreover, on v.9, "salvation, even though we are speaking in this way" --- what is "this way" in context if not something contrary to SALVATION?? Moreover, vv.10,11 talk about CONTINUING service, and DILIGENCE as requisites for "full assurance of hope until the end", so FULL ASSURANCE OF SALVATION! Moreover, v.12 talks about the effects of the warning (so the warning is real/has teeth), NOT in terms of maturing, BUT on perseverance, on bearing desired FRUIT. Moreover, from v.12, Christians should imitate "those who through faith and endurance inherit the promises." See? FAITH AND ENDURANCE, i.e., (1) FAITH - for regeneration, (2) AND ENDURANCE - perseverance, i.e., (1) Faith as to enter IN CHRIST, and (2) Endurance as to stay/remain IN CHRIST. As soon as I stopped fighting the text and accepting what it (PLAINLY) says, an enormous sense of peace took place, and it matched all the other warning texts that came to mind! But what about the security/election to glory/all saving promises done to the believer? It hit me that salvation and promises aren't something that, as a whole, is "stamped" IN US, after we believe; rather, a condition that exists IN CHRIST --- a CHRIST-CENTERED one. I realize that Calvinism err in trying to "stamp" salvation on people that end up believing from eternity PAST. Provisionism fixes this err by correctly realizing that election is actually IN CHRIST (not in individuals from eternity PAST). UNCODITIONAL security of the saints makes a similar error that Calvinism does by "stamping" election to glory etc. on BELIEVERS, upon their entering into Christ to the FUTURE, rather than consistently keeping the "stamp" IN CHRIST. The key is to recognize CHRIST as the anchor: "For as many as the promises of God are, IN HIM (=CHRIST) they are yes" -- 2Co 1.20. Hebrews 6.11 is instrumental in revealing that FULL ASSURANCE happens when one ENDS one's earthly life IN CHRIST!! EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW: Since all things pertaining to salvation, election for glory, security, life eternal are all IN CHRIST, those who are separated, fallen, severed from Christ LEFT THE PLACE, CHRIST, IN WHOM THE PROMISES ARE ETERNALLY "YES". Moreover, we realize that, if a system's election to glory is "stamped" on individual believers upon their entering in Christ, which would imply their unconditional security, ERRS IN THE SAME WAY AS CALVINISM DO by "stamping" election on individual believers, rather than IN CHRIST; the difference being that in CALVINISM, the believer is "stamped" before the foundation of the World; while on Provisionism with unconditional security of the saints, right after their trusting in Christ the first time; while Hebrews 6.11 shows us the believer's condition is actually settled AT THE END of one's earthly life! Again, EVERYTHING FALLS IN PLACE NOW. Glory to God!!

[@minorsingingairhead]

@@christianchris1517 Every interpretation that casts doubt on the promise of the gospel is wrong.

[@christianchris1517]

@@minorsingingairhead Hello and thank you for your reply. Please, kindly elaborate further your argument, so it can be better understood. Despite having registered the above thoughts (I'm in the process of finding answers using the Bible) I'm open to hear the other persuasion, provided it is based in the Scriptures.

[@minorsingingairhead]

@@christianchris1517 I just wanted to point out that your view undermines the promise of the gospel. That's because it makes salvation dependent not on God's preservation but on man's perseverance. I can't imagine to get "an enormous sense of peace" out of that way of thinking. A wise man said "No man can know he is going to heaven until he knows he cannot go to hell." I know, I'm not providing counter exegesis here, but I did not intend to either. Safe to say, a conclusion that forces us to think that those hebrews who apostatized from the faith went to hell is not necessary and contradicts the other clear teaching on the nature of salvation and the security of the believer.

[@christianchris1517]

@@minorsingingairhead Thank you for your reply. It did clarify your previous post. I was expecting; however, a biblical (verses) persuasion. On the topic of endurance/perseverance, I've re-read my post, and found out that it comes from verse 12, not from me. Could you kindly point to an online resource that argues towards your view using exegesis? Many thanks in advance!

[@empirelight5477]

One has to remember that Hebrews is written to the Hebrews and that in times past the Holy Spirit would/could be given for a purpose and then be taken back, i.e., Samson, Saul, Judas. There were many during the ministry of Jesus who experienced and witnessed the Holy Spirit and who were following Moses and the Law and even following Christ, but who still had to come to faith in Jesus and the work that He did on the cross. And ultimately, to reject that meant to reject salvation.

[@omnitheus5442]

Glad you are tackling this. Will watch now!

[@enhancedcalm]

Sorry for the nitpick, but Is that a mouse cursor in the middle of his face for the entire video? I kept trying to flick the bug off my screen.

[@SONshineAcreshomesteadmission]

David Allan and Leighton Flowers Ezekiel 33:18-20 ... “When the righteous TURNS FROM his righteousness and commits iniquity (SIN), HE SHALL DIE BECAUSE OF IT. “But when the wicked TURNS FROM his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, HE SHALL LIVE BECAUSE OF IT. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I WILL JUDGE EVERY ONE OF YOU ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WAYS.” God is very fair here. Each person is held accountable for his own choices. It's clear you can choose to turn your back on your righteousness, which is Christ alone, and you can choose to turn your back on your sin. Let me ask this question, remember when King David said in Psalms 51:10-12 ... Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. RESTORE to me the joy of Your salvation, and uphold me by Your generous Spirit ... why would King David be afraid of God removing His Holy Spirit from him and why would he ask God to restore him if you cannot lose your salvation? I would say it is because he knew first handedly that King Saul lost his salvation, and lost the Holy Spirit. Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourself in 1 Samuel 16:14 ... But the Spirit of the Lord DEPARTED FROM SAUL, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him ... why did God take His Spirit from Saul? Was it arbitrarily? Did He do this because Saul sinned once? No! God did this because King Saul repeatedly disobeyed Him. In the same way, if we choose to continually disobey God and live in sin then He will remove His Spirit from us too. Let me show this same idea for the New Testament. Hebrews 6:4-6 ... For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and HAVE tasted the heavenly gift, and HAVE BECOME PARTAKES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, and HAVE tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Romans 11:20-23 ... Well said. BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF THEY WERE BROKEN OFF, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, BUT FEAR. For if God DID NOT spare the natural branches, HE MAY NOT SPARE YOU EITHER. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on THOSE WHO FELL, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. OTHERWISE YOU ALSO WILL BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they DO NOT CONTINUE in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. If once saved always saved is true then what is there to fear? After all, God is stuck with you and you can live however you want, right? According to this passage God grafts in, which is genuinely true salvation, but He can also graft you out again. That gives me Holy fear of God to obey so that He won't graft me out again.

[@monkizaki1440]

The strongs dictionary defines "parapiptō" (He. 6:6) as an apostasy though? Is this Bible concordance wrong then? (Genuine question)

[@duanehensley8835]

I watched this with an open mind and at the end, I'm not convinced of the argument this guy makes because he makes analogies and assertions that are completely unnecessary. I'm always left bewildered at how such scholars and intelligent men can make basic logical errors. In other words this guy's conclusions are illegitimate inferences based on bad analogies. Also, ironically, his detailed explanation of the Greek word uses , etc. have no bearing at all on concluding one way or the other whether this is speaking about true apostasy. The book of Hebrews is NOT as complex as this guy thinks that it is. It's only seemingly complex to those who try all kinds of verbal and linguistic gymnastics to convert the true meaning to make it say something different than what it is obviously is saying and that is true Christians can and have become apostate and are no longer saved in such a case. Anyone care to try defend this guys position in a spirit of gentleness and respect I'm open and all ears.

[@duanehensley8835]

@Alvin Ochola I gave a summary statement of why I don't agree with the comments made by Dr. Allen on the book of Hebrews, which is merely my opinion of course, but you're welcome to defend his position if you like. Just be ready to be challenged though. I promise to be respectful.

[@mutulica10]

What calvinists don't seem to understand is that God himself stepped over his own glory giving us humans the most high example of humilty by becoming human flesh and dying on the cross out of love. God seems to value other things over stroking His glory

[@fullfrontalgrace]

This is nuts, like CRAZY NUTS (brotherly affection and mild humour engendered-but SERIOUSLY) to think that this is not referring to the fact these people were turning from the sacrifice of the Cross of Christ back to the insufficient temple sacrifices. Read Hebrews 3-4 leading up to Hebrews 6. Additionally, read on, Hebrews 6: 9 where the truth of it is made clear: But beloved,... That accompany SALVATION though we thus speak. (CONTEXT CONTEXT PLEASE) Please notice what's in view here: salvation (NOT TEMPORAL but ETERNAL). That's what is at risk of being lost. Add to this Romans 11: 22-23 where: unbelief...or you too shall be cut off. What are we going to do then, everywhere there are warnings about rejecting the gift through unbelief (where the sovereign God cannot cut off or regraff in through belief or unbelief those who chose to come in or choose to leave, whilst still being faithful to His character). Talk about twisted scripture. If you have to do this kind of theological gymnastics, you must REALIZE you've wandered far afield from what is plainly stated. Finally at the end of this discussion; saved not saved through this hoop through that hoop. Genuinely saved not saved. What? Sirs, what must I do to be saved? You must produce fruit and have it inspected! What? Where's the simplicity that is CHRIST? What theological nonsensical pratter! With all the respect I can muster gentleman: KISS would ya'??? (Keep it simple SIMPLE

[@falconguy4768]

How can one read Hebrews and be osas

[@CalebBrianBooth]

I appreciate the work of this channel and Leighton. However, I have never quite understood why groups like the Southern Baptists cleave to this one element of the TULIP. I think that Calvinists and the vast majority of non-Calvinists would fully agree with one another that the cleaving to this singular point is illogical. Calvinists would say that this is just one supporting cog in an overall structure and that without the other cogs this singular piece logically collapses in on itself. The majority of non-Calvinists can look at the proof texts given for eternal security and state that when the scripture affirms that nothing will be able to separate us from God, this is consistently and logically referring to externalities, not inner will and choice. The context of these verses makes that fairly clear, and even a stronger case is made in the need of harmonizing discrete scriptures into a coherent message. It is just very unlikely the Biblical authors would expect their words to be taken as a guarantee of salvation once some initial event occurs. I grew up reading and memorizing the scripture without hearing any explicit preaching either way on Eternal Security. I read and memorized the verses used to argue for eternal security and never, ever once took them that way. Additionally, I was not even aware of the Hebrews passages until I was much older, I just somehow did not read Hebrews as I was growing up, my loss :). I view Hebrews 6 and other passages in Hebrews as very difficult for TULIP Christians and Perseverance-only Christians to deal with (note for example Dr. Allen's lack of a simple explanation in this video, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. " - Einstein). However, Hebrews 6/Hebrews overall is not the castle over which non-Perseverance Christians fly their flag. The overall coherence and harmony of scripture, OT & NT, is our textual tool for thinking about God, and God's kingdom is the one in which we live, together with you all, who I think just have a misunderstanding on the interpretation of certain scriptures. One additional point, I have talked to many Southern Baptist friends who feel conviction in the importance of the Eternal Security doctrine due to the fact that without it, Christians are left as a heap of anxiety and fear and never confident in God's love for us and therefore never able to enter into deep and peaceful relationship with God. I acknowledge there does seem to be certain smaller churches that preach in way that does cause anxiety to its members and indeed some Christians grow up with some scars due to this. However, this is not normative at churches that ground their teaching in deep understanding of scripture and overall not the case at the majority of Churches that do not hold to perseverance of the saints. John Wesley put forward a very convincing (and comforting) doctrine of 'Assurance' as Dr. Allen briefly mentioned in this video. Wesley did not believe in Eternal Security. This doctrine is taken from Romans 8:15-16, as well as other scripture.

[@TimothyFish]

It's not about cleaving to "TULIP" it is about believing what the Bible says. Baptists are big believers in sticking to what the Bible says.

[@RUT812]

@@TimothyFish Yes we are!

[@rossderek82]

I'm glad this recorded, because this is a lot to take in on his explanation on Hebrews 6. Come back and take it pieces😅

[@JimiSurvivor]

The Ante-Nicene fathers all believed you could lose your salvation for apostasy as well as living a lifestyle of sin. It is amazing how "Provisionalists" cite them when they speak on behalf of free will against Calvinism but not not when they make salvation contingent upon ONGOING faith and obedience.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

Is there a way to upvote your comment a million times?

[@TheBluegoatman]

If you can claim it, it didn't save you with the exception of faith. You can't claim, by grace alone, thru faith alone then argue that a list of things you did saved you or that list keeps you saved. Ephesians 2 : 8 and 9. Romans 10 : 9

[@robinq5511]

Which only shows nobody has everything correct...

[@kellymiller4228]

I have really enjoyed Dr. flowers critique on Calvinism, however it appears to me when you get to this point you view it more from their perspective than from a biblical perspective. There’s a lot I could say, but it just goes to show how blinded all of us can be at times when we have been so indoctrinated that it keeps us from taking the word at face value even when we have more than two or three witnesses confirming this issue at hand.

[@johntrevett2944]

Salvation is a free gift, not of works. So simple a child could understand this.

[@cathy4735]

Pastor JD FARAG said God told him if you can be confused, you will lose your salvation.

[@1oxyoke]

Thank you Dr. Flowers for conducting this interview/discussion with grace and humility. I think most others in your position would let their ego get in the way and interrupt and comment unneccesarily.

[@CliveChamberlain946]

Second :( Ha ! I was trying to pick that black spec on my screen - apparently it's on Dr. Allen's camera lens or maybe the top left edge of Leighton's green-screen.. (I know, I'm a picky guy..)

[@ontologicallysteve7765]

HaHaHaHa that makes two of us. SO distracting! Ever see those profile pics/avatars that are a piece of hair on a transparent background? I'm like a cat with a laser-pointer with those things!! 😂

[@dpcrn]

LOL, It must be Dr Allen's camera. I went back to the beginning of the video, and it wasn't there-- even when that area was white. It suddenly appeared when Dr Allen interview began.

[@CliveChamberlain946]

@@dpcrn Ha, ha! I bet Leighton leaned his chair back bumping his green screen between cuts, note the curved edge of the fabric frame and perfect right-angle (made from the software video overlay? It just doesn't look like random dust on Dr Allen's lens.. (besides objects on lenses blur the background, they don't get focused). Things get more refined each passing month.. All in good fun brother!

[@tannpl]

I did the same. LOL

[@jeffreybomba]

In Volume 1, Arminianism wrote that God knows the beginning from the end, and God does not save those He knows would fall way. He flat out states that he never publicly taught loss of salvation, but he listed passages that he struggled to reconcile with eternal security. In volume 3 he writes that he could only find 2 “ECFs” that taught anything close to conditional security that were not labeled heretics. The fact that a conditional security proponent pointed this out to me, and even though he knew most condition security theologians had lied about Arminius’s beliefs, and yet continued to follow liars, was quite depressing.

[@tonytorres4239]

I also think that this time it seems to me like he is trying to have the doctrine of once saved always save and force the text to fit the doctrine. Like Calvinists do, sorry Alan .

[@tonytorres4239]

@@matt_h_27 Tjel , notice that I wrote ( this time) and ( it seems). I know David is not a calvinist. That wasn't my point.

[@robertshelly7611]

But the younger widow's refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith (1 Timothy 5:11-12). If a this means that a widow can "cast off her first faith," then I would think the same holds true for all of us. We must continue in the faith, it's called being faithful!

[@PathandPavement]

Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to discuss this and create an excellent forum for discussion and learning. I don't have the means to go back to school right now but I love studying theology. I appreciate so much you making these videos available!

[@jeangreen432]

What do we do with John 15; Rev chapters 2 & 3 (esp 3:5) ; James 5:19-20 ; etc. ? Aren't believers being warned by Jesus that if we don't repent and walk in faith, walk in the spirit, we will not be saved? (Romans 8 etc.) 1Cor 3 seems to be teaching about a believers 'works' , which doesn't seem to be a salvific issue. Our faith, walking in the spirit, abiding in Christ, is a salvific issue. Am I confused about what is being taught here regarding OSAS? I listened twice. Please if someone can share what I am misunderstanding I would be most grateful. I really enjoy Dr Leighton Flower's teachings and have learned a great deal watching his videos. God bless him and you all as we let the Holy Spirit lead us closer to Jesus Christ

[@marcc325]

When a person is saved they have Jesus Christ's imputed righteousness. A person gets to heaven based upon the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. The Pauline Epistles are for the born again believer. The books you mention are not Pauline. Early Revelation chapters are for the church but they mention churches (assemblies of believers) getting their candlestick removed. Revelation 3:5 just mentions the book of life (everyone ever born is in it) not the Lamb's book of life (eternally secure believers in Christ). There's the book of life then there's the Lamb's book of life. One is temporal, the other eternal. God bless!! :)

[@CliveChamberlain946]

On sinning in Heaven, it won't even be in our nature to consider it. We might even quote John Lennox "Nonsense remains nonsense, even when talked by world-famous scientists"

[@JimiSurvivor]

Even with a perfect "nature", we could still sin just as Satan, his angels, Adam and Eve all sinned though, at first they had perfect natures. What makes sin possible is not a predetermining metaphysical essence but free moral agency. This is what made them and us culpable for our decisions.

[@wishyouthebest9222]

@@JimiSurvivor that must be somehow erased for sin to be deafeated for once and for all. We must get better natures to achieves what satan couldn't.

[@saintlouissaints]

Our nature here will be our nature there. He who is filthy let him be filthy still and he who is holy let him be holy still.

[@JimiSurvivor]

Cliff Matthews Adam and Eve, Lucifer and a third of the host of heaven not only considered sin but chose it though they had perfect natures.

[@wishyouthebest9222]

@@JimiSurvivor do you think that all misery will repeat itself? We better be erased if we somehow can still sin in heaven

[@gregorylatta8159]

How do you differ from classical free grace. Not the crossless gospel version???

[@juansanta6966]

I'm not against what Allen teaches or his interpretation but He is wrong when in 53:00 He says that unbelievers were never partakers of the Holy Spirit. I'll give You 2 examples: Judas and King Saul.

[@peterrobinson4471]

I dont think Judas truly believed. I say this due to the Last supper experience. where at the time when Jesus washed their feet and peter, thought it wasnt right for jesus to his feet. But Jesus said to him, " if i dont wash your feet you have no part with. Interestingly Jadas wasnt washed. Because he left,he wasnt there. Hahahah. Just trying to understand these deep theological video.

[@juansanta6966]

@@peterrobinson4471 I think You are right but the point I made is that in the bible We see that even unbelievers can partake of the Holy Spirit (not inside of them as only believers receive him) but over them like Judas that was part of the 12 so He healed people and casted out demons, something that only the Holy Spirit can do.

[@billycroom9208]

Judas was never saved. Saul was under the law. No sealing of the Holy Ghost

[@juansanta6966]

@@billycroom9208 exactly they were not saved but were partakers of the H.S. since miracles and prophesy can be perform only by the power of him. They were partakers not sealed.

[@tonyforeman9502]

@@juansanta6966 I think you are right. Sanctification can occur in some measure before justification as well as after. Judas, and other apostates, had gifts of the spirit - Matt 7: 21-23 and 1 Cor 13:2.

[@tommycapps9903]

The issue is not God’s trustworthiness or faithfulness. God has promised that He will never leave you nor forsake you. The question is our faithfulness to him. There are 3 things Hebrews warns Christians about, the hardening effect of sin that could cause us to leave Christ (Heb 3:12-13), the immaturity of the believer that could lead to sin that could lead u away from Christ ( Heb 5:9-6:4) Thirdly false teachers that could lead you to reject Christ and receive a false Christ ( Heb 10:25-31 & 1,2 John)

[@eternalsecurityofthesaints9581]

Praise God a child of God can never lose their salvation 💯

[@PhilGeissler]

Amen!

[@JimiSurvivor]

Neither the Bible nor anyone in the early Church believed this

[@PhilGeissler]

@@JimiSurvivor The Apostle John wrote about born-again salvation (John 3). Being born of the Spirit into the family of God. How can one be unborn out of the family of God?

[@eternalsecurityofthesaints9581]

@@JimiSurvivor I disagree, and believe, as a certainty, that the Bible does, in fact, speak in favor of eternal security. As a matter of importance, it is necessary to view the subject of salvation from the divine side, rather than a person's perception. If I were to begin from an individual's standpoint, I would ask, Are you saved, or, if you were to die a year from now, would you be with the Lord? This, of course, to one who holds to the theology that a child of God can lose their salvation or sonship, a specific answer is unattainable, since that person does not know, in the coming months, if they will lose their salvation or not; thus, they are left in a position of doubt. Faith, as presented in scripture (when concerned with salvation) speaks in this manner: Romans 4:20-21- He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; and being FULLY PERSUADED that, what he (God) had promised, he (God) was able also to perform. With that being said, salvation is a divine work, so if salvation is lost, then God has an inability to perform his promises. Though Philippians 2:12 states, Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, the next verse reads (vs. 13), For it is God which worketh in you both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure.... The term "work" in both verses are different Greek words, the latter being applied to God's active, energetic work within a person. Too many questions arise if it were possible for a child of God to lose their salvation or sonship, one of which appears after reading Matthew 1:21, And you shall call his name Jesus, for he WILL SAVE HIS PEOPLE.... So, if one of "his people" loses salvation, has Jesus failed to live up to his own name? Is this a false prophecy spoken by an angel of God?

[@JimiSurvivor]

@@PhilGeissler Yes, Jesus used the metaphor of natural birth to describe our being regenerated into a new life. What the scriptures say NOTHING about is your fanciful idea of being UNBORN (or REVERSE BIRTHED). When Jesus used a metaphor to teach people He was using a natural example which people would understand. Then He would apply it to a spiritual event. "BEING UNBORN" or REVERSE BORN" is not even a word in Greek. The only person who mentioned "going back into his mother's womb" was Nicodemus and he did it to show how RIDICULOUS it sounded to him. Jesus AGREED with him that, naturally speaking, no one could "crawl back in his mother's womb." However, NICODEMUS was not really making a point about SPIRITUAL BIRTH because, in fact, he knew absolutely nothing about it. As Jesus said: 10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you DO NOT UNDERSTAND these things?" (John 3:10) Even though Jesus said Nicodemus "did not understand" His point you are attempting to apply what he said as if he had a DEEPER understanding than what Jesus had yet said. After all Jesus had not yet commented on whether the new life could die. However, the Bible does say this elsewhere. Of all the plants that came to life in Jesus parable two did not reproduce but died.

[@boldlionministries6402]

Salvation is an eternal birth, to say that a man can be born again and than become unborn is false and unintentionally calling God a liar. Because the Lord said "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish" the moment I trusted Christ as my savior I was born again spiritually the bible uses this term as being born of God. "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" the sin a man has is in the flesh nature and not the new nature thats born of God. In the eyes of God I'm made perfect positionally though a man may struggle in sin in the Christian life this sin can no longer condemn him because they've already been paid and the Lord said "he that believeth on him is not condemned" so God is clear that if I trust him as my saviour and him alone I'm not condemned if I can later be "condemned" than that would mean he lied! Its not my obedience that gets or keeps me saved, rather its the Lord that saves the moment your personal faith is placed in his finished work at the cross. The false claim that Calvinist believe Osas is wrong because they believe in predestination also they believe an evidence of works is proof someone is saved which is false romans 4:1-5. OsAS or eternal security is true but all 5 points of Calvinism is false this is what the Armenians don't understand. Preservation and perseverance are 2 different things. The free grace position is the only correct position.

[@kaneyhobelar3618]

I sure wish this was translated into normal day-to-day language... hard to follow all these terms. lol

[@miamuxe9023]

I'm pretty dumb. But it's not too hard if you take a short systematic theology class, or course, or even on KZbin. Some professors and students upload their lectures. I'm pretty sure if you look up something like "introduction to soteriology" you could probably rewatch this and get what they are talking about.

[@mrnoedahl]

Theologians are like lawyers, they like to complicate things. If you are in Christ you are secure, if you are outside of Christ then there is no more security. That is why we are to fear the Lord.

[@mariothefollower5033]

You lose not your salvation because you become an unbeliever but because you become disobedient, this is when God removes your name from the book of life

[@billerickson5604]

His “fallen away” or “stand off from God” seems to be the same as not “being in fellowship with God” which I understand to be a salvation issue. I don’t believe one can be saved and be receiving grace from God(for any of the things grace does including forgiveness , the cleansing by the blood) apart from being in fellowship with Him. If we walk in the light , we have fellowship, but if we walk in darkness we DO NOT. (1john1:6-7) We CONTINUALLY NEED THE BLOOD TO REMOVE ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS TO BE ABLE TO FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD. If grace were stopped to any one of us , we would be lost . Dead while living. God bless u saints

[@terraloft]

Ouch, your analogy is my experience. To have been given renewed security and faith and to be given forgiveness and the strength to forgive is all and only God moving in my heart by Holy Spirit's advocacy. Grace upon grace

[@truthseekers1620]

if i can put salvation judgement and reconciliation in one word it would be love it is natural Christ would say hear o israel the LORD your God is one you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart soul strength and mind and you shall love your neighbor as yourself on these 2 commandments hang the law and prophets. God commended his love towards us while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. what i'm saying we are saved by the love of God and Christ demonstrated that love by dying on the cross to take away our sin and he was raised from the dead on that day sin and death was put to death and he conquered sin and death by raising from the dead there by crushing the head of the serpent and the serpent bruising his heel

[@ht5869]

First all, I would like to thank Dr Flowers for bringing this very good video stream and material. I really appreciate Dr Allen's explanation on this controversial point. He seems honest and sincere in his views. However, I have to disagree with both Drs. Allen and Flowers on this particular issue. Regarding Hebrew 6, it seems to me that Dr Allen is forcing the text to say something different to what plainly it says. I agree that the context talks about maturity, but it is clearly linked with salvation in verse 9 ("things that accompany salvation"). So, failing to recognize that, it seems an assumption too strong in favor of an interpretation that still may lack of exegesis. The other thing that seems totally illogical is Dr Allen's statement that "a false believer can apostatize." How can this be even possible? By definition, an apostate is that one who once had faith and then abandoned it. A false believer (even if in church) cannot abandon faith, because he or she is simply not a believer. If God created Adam and Eve having a sinless body and a decision against God's will corrupted them completely, even affecting their offspring, to the point that required divine intervention. It makes sense, at least to imagine, that once man is regenerated through the redemptive work of Jesus, but still dwelling in a body of sin, there is a risk--perhaps minimal, but real--that man can apostatize from faith and therefore being lost. And, similar to what happened in Eden's garden, that's why the Bible provides such strong warnings. Blessings to both of you!

[@truthseekers1620]

true there was no sin till they sinned also God never said if you eat of it but said in the day you eat of it you will die

[@jesuslovesyou1921]

Salvation is eternal you haven't read hebrews 6 in context. Btw adam and eve didnt have eternal life in the sense that we have it now. They were created with he possibility of dying or living forever. They didnt automatically have eternal life or else God wouldnt have put the tree of life (which Grant's everlasting life) in the garden. Hebrews 6 is talking about the unpardonable sin. The definition you used for apostasy is not biblical. I have seen a true born again believer fall away form the faith nor do I see it in scripture.

[@jesuslovesyou1921]

When Hebrews 6:4-6 say that "it is impossible . . . to renew them again to repentance," is it referring to Christians losing their salvation? For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. -Hebrews 6:4-6 The above passage seems to suggest that a person who once believed in Jesus and was saved can still fall away and lose his salvation. But is it really teaching that? The following answer is extracted from Pastor Prince's book, Grace Revolution: We believe that it is completely possible for a person to have head knowledge of the Bible and the Lord Jesus, and still reject Him and not value Him as their personal Savior. A good example of such a person is Judas Iscariot. He outwardly experienced the favor, protection, and power of the Lord and escaped the pollutions of the world by being associated with our Lord Jesus. He was physically with Jesus and the disciples day and night. He witnessed and even partook of the miracles of Jesus, from the feeding of the five thousand to the raising of Lazarus. He witnessed the healings of the blind, lame, and demon-possessed (see Matt. 4:24). And yet never once did he acknowledge Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. So Judas is an example of someone described in Hebrews 6:4-6, one who was once enlightened (he knew who Jesus was), tasted the heavenly gift, partook of the Holy Spirit (even performed miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit upon him, see Matt. 10:1-4), and tasted the good Word of God, yet never believed Jesus as his Lord and Savior. His was an outright rejection of Jesus. And as the Scriptures describe, Judas Iscariot suffered an ignoble end (see Acts 1:16-20). It was a sad end for someone who had once enjoyed such physical proximity to Jesus. Judas Iscariot was one of twelve men who had the privilege of being appointed by Jesus as His disciples. He was one of only twelve men who were Jesus’ closest companions during His earthly ministry. Yet he used his free choice to reject Jesus. So Hebrews 6:4-6 refer to professors of Christianity who, like Judas Iscariot, were never genuine believers of Jesus Christ. We believe it is important that this passage should never be used to threaten and bring fear to true believers, scaring them with the lie that they can easily lose their salvation and eternal security in Christ.

[@jesuslovesyou1921]

@Pond3r Thiz you are right.

[@truthseekers1620]

@@jesuslovesyou1921 Christ knew judas would betray him kinda funny to call someone with the Holy Spirit a devil we did not earn our salvation we can not lose it was all on Christ

[@Runner4530]

1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God If you abandon the faith (as mentioned in 1 Timothy 4:1), then you lose your salvation. That’s why Matthew 24:13 says “But the one who endures to the end will be saved”

[@krissyyoung9264]

Mathew 24 is not about the Body of Christ. Jesus is speaking about Jews in Israel/Judaea going through the 70th week, seeing the abomination of desolation and having to flee into the mountains for safety. How could God tell us (the Body of Christ) many things, such as that we’re sealed with the Spirit unto redemption, we have eternal life now, we’re justified by FAITH and Christ will lose NONE that have been given to Him (born again), if we had to “endure till the end” for salvation? That would completely overthrow the gospel of Christ!

[@bobbyadkins6983]

You do a great job refuting Calvinism but you have missed it when it comes to this subject. Please pray about it. Our free will doesn't cease after we are saved.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@Kasai Samurai Anyone who believes in eternal security must believe we no longer have the free will to choose whether or not to remain a Christian.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@beautifulfeetpreachingsc You sure make people sound like poor helpless innocent victims.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@beautifulfeetpreachingsc I'm not saying people have the free will to do everything that they wish to do. But people do have the free will to receive God's grace once it is offered and they have the free will to reject it. People can choose to serve God once God has given them the opportunity and they can always choose to stop serving Him and suffer the consequences of Hell. And yes, He can and does often override people's free will when they go to far. Nothing can happen unless God allows it to happen.

[@sukka4pain]

You don't will yourself into salvation, you will yourself into believing, which is the basis that God saves you on. Salvation is the work of God alone, you're not gonna will yourself out of that.

[@PianoDisneygal10]

God has free will, but there are some things that even He can’t do. Like lie.

[@spiderjump]

Matthew 18 It is clearly written that Jesus taught His disciples that sin can cause them to lose their salvation.

[@gwine2nine52]

it is clearly written that the thief on the cross was once saved always saved. agree or disagree??

[@dustinpaulson1123]

Leave, yes. Lose, no.

[@20july1944]

What does that mean?

[@EssenceofPureFlavor]

@@20july1944 Losing would be sinning "too much" and God decides to no longer save you. Leaving would be an out and out rejection of Christ, and Him letting you have what you want.

[@IAmisMaster]

martialimitator Correct, this is exactly what a believe.

[@golightly5121]

Leave, no Lose, no Otherwise,sealed means nothing, eternal and everlasting means nothing. We must believe in Jesus for salvation, we must believe Him for assurance.

[@grannywoods12]

One thing that always bothers me that I hear from people of LOS (loss of salvation), is "You don't LOSE salvation, but you leave it, walk away or forfeit it", or "God does not leave you. You leave God". I don't like those statements because they don't make any sense and it's a play on words. When we say, "lose salvation", they know what we're talking about. They act like they don't, but they do know, so they rather play with words. It's really meaning all the same thing. If we want to call it "pineapple", then call it pineapple. It still has the same results at the end. That's just a pet peeve of mine.

[@lancewolf4060]

How will you explain Heb. 6:4-6? Also Gal 5?