The worst gardening mistake you can make - soil contamination, Aminopyralids

More details on Aminopyralids here: www.ncagr.gov/spcap/pesticide...
This will give more examples of leaf damage, and also includes directions on how to perform a bioassay test.
One thing I VERY much disagree with is that tilling will help speed up break down by microorganisms. That makes a lot of sense... the best way to help microorganisms is to kill them all by tilling? I mean, come on. And even IF it did, I still wouldn't till, because tilling is stupid. Cut off your nose to save your face, type of thing. Other than that though, that link has pretty good information.
edit: i mentioned clovers are dangerous dangerous cattle, but apparently not all clovers are bad for cattle, only white and yellow.
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[@BonaFideWildLife]

Wow, thanks for informing us about Aminopyralids aka. Grazon/Milestone! Our food system is definitely under attack and they've figured out a way to hit backyard gardeners. I've heard over and over that seasoned gardeners are struggling this year in the USA. Actually, I found this video because another huge YT gardener had massive crop failure with her nightshades and fellow gardeners commented about possible aminopyralids soil contamination. I thought my herbs were struggling just because I transplanted them in late June with 95+ temps using OMRI Miracle Grow Organics soil (black bag). Now I know it was contaminated because 12/14 types have died and the other two have never thrived. I never had a problem before. So I know gardeners are more lovers than fighters but we must stop this! Please write to your local representative and state rep to demand that laws be passed to ban herbicide use on hay, straw, manure and crops that will be moved off the farm for commercial use. Alternatively, ban farmers from selling goods without labeling/providing safety data fact sheets. Yeah, this is just another inconvenience to the farmer, however farm animals have been free-range grazing on organic matter for eons. I promise the animals will be okay without herbicides!

[@suburbanhomestead]

Part of the reason why I’ve shifted to using only grass clippings from my own plants. Very important info for new gardeners.

[@jasonmarshall4161]

I’ve heard so many horse fans and owners claim that no horse owner would ever feed their beloved horse pesticides. And yet I’ve hear your story from so many different organic/permaculture gardener.

[@universalradio6944]

I live in a rural area and was given some spoiled hay which went straight into the compost. I filled a bed with it over a year later and like you, planted tomato's and peppers which all grew twisted and stunted. Over the winter I grew brasiccas and they have done spectacularly well . I won't bring anything onto my property now unless I'm 100% sure it's spray free.

[@hagenoft]

Such valuable information. Why can't this be standard learning in school? Everyone should start growing their own food!!! I have. And I'm never going to stop

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Totally agree

[@michellelourens1879]

I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons I prefer home educating my kids🌻

[@sandrashane677]

Because schools are indoctrination centres to fool children into being subserviant zombies who will be easily enslaved.

[@debbiehenri345]

Honey Fungus from woodchips is another one. I accidentally did this with a former garden 25 years ago. Woodchipped every border and then found evidence of the fungus - by then too late. It was already rife through my present garden (although that's because I live sandwiched between 2 woodlands and not through woodchip contamination). Rather than try and treat it (massively expensive), I live with it, planting species that will cope or just enjoying the more susceptible ones on the short term. However, it is irritating when it catches me out (just lost a lovely almond, 2 pears quickly died, 2 hybrid cherries have done nothing but struggle, and now I fear an exceptionally good hybrid Hazel is on the way out too. Wild Hazels are just fine, same with wild Cherry. They can cope perfectly well, with a Chinese Plum growing very well in place of the almond. So, from my experience, wild fruit species, bush fruits like blackcurrant and gooseberry, and maybe those trees that grow more vigorously are the way to live with Honey Fungus. On the other hand, Honey Fungus does have its uses too. When I find something infested with it, I don't get into a mood about it. After observing that it did such a good job of breaking down bulky material, I use it in the bottom of large containers along with prunings and whatnot, letting the fungus do all the hard work of breaking down material, this releasing nutrients to feed vegetable plants planted in a compost layer on top. Later I found out about Hugelkultur, pleased to discover that I was already ahead of the game in this respect.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

Also ask if the manure is from animals that where de-wormed. Because that stuff will also come right back out of the rear end and kill worms and all kinds of manure eating animals, like dung beetles. And if you mulch with straw, please ask, if it was treated with glyphosate. I decided to mulch only with woodchips, sawdust and stuff that was not sprayed with any herbycide, fungizide, pestizide, whateverzide. I've read too much about all the nasty things they do. Don't want that in my garden. (Currently reading Toxic legacy by Stephanie Seneff.... It' incomprehensible, how that stuff is still legal to be used...

[@cherylaeschbach2369]

I live in Sweden, which now also has pyralid in "ecological" soil & fertilizers- a major catastrophe! Thanks for a super helpfull video. I have shared with our national seed-saver organization.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yikes!

[@PaleGhost69]

I'm digging the new intro. Lingers on the planting clip a second or two too long but that's the only negative I have. Very professionally done, almost like a real tv. show.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks, I wanted something shorter for this season.

[@maureenodonnell9600]

Thanks for your info on aminopyralids. I have 2 horses and advertise for people to come and get manure as I can’t use it all in my gardens. I have to let people know that I do not feed hay that has been sprayed with any chemicals whatsoever. I find more and more people are reluctant to use horse manure, which is a shame as it is great in the garden. I usually let mine compost for 6 months to a year before spreading in my gardens. It’s also great to put under cardboard when sheetmulching. So sorry to hear that your soils have been contaminated. Hopefully farmers and ranchers will wake up and go organic. Keep up the good work, Keith. 😊

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Maureen. And thanks for being a great person and being aware of this and letting others know your are clean.

[@JoelElder2013]

I think you may have misspoke about feeding clovers to cows..... Both yellow and white blossom sweet clovers are dangerous to feed too cattle in large quantities (it can lead to blood thinning problems) but all other clovers are fine to feed too cattle. For reference, I used to be a cattle Tanveer where we ran 400 cow calf pairs and yearling backgrounders on 5500 acres of permanent forages... Including clovers. I know it's a minor detail, but I know you tend to be very careful, so I thought I'd let you know. Absolutely love your channel!

[@firmamentfarms4869]

Came to say this, the statement about clover being "really unhealthy" for cattle to eat is untrue. Some are and can cause problems but it'd usually be from eating an abundance but they can adapt and it can otherwise be a supplemental feed. Clover isn't an unhealthy forage. A quick search clears this up. BTW, 5500 acres is a lot!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks for clarifying guys. 👍 I will edit this info into the video description.

[@michellelourens1879]

I am a visual learner and your videos just make so much sense to me. I have been growing food for 3 years now, but was never able to wrap my head around permaculture. You just explain it so well and with a fabulous garden as a visual aid I am now 100% on board. Now that Spring is here in sunny South Africa I am already trying out some tips and tricks learnt from these videos. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for such excellent content and for all your effort to share it with us all.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thank you so much for your wonderful comments. It means a lot. I'm just a guy filming his garden, ajd the love you guys give in the comments are what keep me going. Namaste.

[@JessicaJLandi]

Woodchips are the best. This was my first year using them, and getting into permaculture and no till gardening. Amazing journey so far, and Canadian Permaculture Legacy has been the most helpful & informative!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Jess

[@rainbowconnected]

Thank you for sharing this crucial information! Most folks I've met who garden have never heard of these things. Like you, I collect tons of leaves in the fall. I always avoid lawns that look too perfect. I am starting to wonder how concerned I need to be about people that spray their yard for mosquitoes. It seems to be increasingly common where I am. Obviously, it's not an herbicide, but poison nonetheless. Haven't found a good way to avoid that one yet, short of asking every person I take leaves from. It worries me for the sake of all the native bees and other insect life. But also for my chickens, because I use leaves in their coop and run.

[@morganhenn]

The first garden bed I put in at our home has this problem, I think. We put in a raised bed filled with a mix of bagged soil , bagged compost and bagged cow manure. It has never done well for 3-4 years. Plants will hang on but rarely flourish. Tomatoes do poorly but don't die, melons and squash never even flower, legumes rarely produce (but could be the rabbits fault haha), "giant" sunflowers are 6 inches tall, brassicas struggle hard with pests. In contrast, I covered another area of the lawn with cardboard, mulched with leaves, and it has been much more fertile with a healthy strawberry patch and various annuals. Last summer I put down some biochar and compost over the (suspected contaminated) raised bed and it did well for a couple months but petered off again. I'm hoping little by little it will get better over time! Trying to add more mulch (leaf mulch mostly and home made compost) to get the microbial environment in better health. It's a shame!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Do this test to confirm it's aminopyralid. Beans, peas, tomatoes and white clover show aminopyralid contamination quickly. Fill some pots with contaminated compost and others with a known ‘safe’ compost, certified organic composts are fine. Sow the seeds and wait for approximately 3 - 4 weeks. If the plants in both composts look healthy then all should be well. The aminopyralid damage will look like the leaves curling in on themselves.

[@d.shermandesantos3570]

Critical information! Thank you. I did a heavy mulch with hay I'd bought from the local feed store on some just planted bushes. They did great till I put another batch of hay on and suddenly the leaves started curling. Research revealed the likely culprit - aminopyralids. I had to remove every single bit of hay right down to the soil, cut back the new, stunted growth, gathered some leaves from the forest and mulched with that instead. This year most of the plants seem to be fine, except in one spot, so I turned the soil there and cut back the damaged leaves again. I disposed of hay and cuttings in a turn-around part of the road that had been getting weedy - not much grows in that turn-around area since I dumped that hay there. I was lucky - just affected a hundred bushes - I've read about some farmers who have had a few acres ruined by this stuff!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good heavens...

[@kastironwoman6009]

So Cool- Can totally tell your an engineer! LOVE the purposeful analysis on leaf gathering, soil contamination, and the remedies. Horse manure can also be full of field bindweed seeds also known as morning glory and other weeds from their pasture. Field bindweed, Convolvulus arvensis, is horrific to irradiate with their 4 foot deep rhizomes!!! We found out about that BEFORE we got any horse manure, thank goodness. We already have bindweed creeping in from the neighbor's yards. Instead of manure, my daughter suggested we collect free coffee grounds from Starbucks and other coffee shops. They bag it up and set it aside for people to collect, and over the winter we were able to collect 30+ bags (10-25 pounds each--it is highly sought after in our rural community, so you have to be johnny-on-the-spot to get it)- but my husband read that you don't want to use coffee grounds in the same place that you plant beans. also read that tomatoes are not keen on them because they are acidic, but they are full of nitrogen.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is such a big reason why it's always good to introduce manure into the compost pile and not right into gardens. Then when the compost is done, leave it in a warm open place and let whatever is in there still germinate. You can then pull them out before they get into the garden. Plus, the composting process itself will kill most seeds if you can get it nice and hot.

[@raincoast9010]

I got burned two years ago with killer compost which i got from the city composting facility. Great info to let others know the dangers.

[@barebones5884]

Awesome information as usual. You're so knowledgeable

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

So nice of you

[@Mikhail-Caveman]

Thanks for taking the time to add that mistake, and explaining it in such depth!

[@kastironwoman6009]

A note about STRAW: if you have Celiac Disease, best not to use straw EVER- because it is the stalk left over after harvesting Wheat, Rye or Barley, all of which containing gluten. Just breathing in the dust can make those with celiac really really sick for 24-72 hours after handling it for animal bedding or composting it.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks for the comment. I hope that helps other people. I will try to remember this and mention it in future videos if the topic comes up.

[@svensebastianhorner]

Thank you for the good and in depth research. Especially in the gardening realm there are many unsubstantiated opinions. I prefer substantiated ones, like yours. ;) One thing though I am wondering here is: Did you test for the aminopyralids? Probably not, because it's expensive to test? Was there something different about the wood chips, compared to other locations? If there is a lot of small pieces or even saw dust, that might lead to nitrogen lock up, because the decomposing organisms use it all up for the wood, and for a while this makes less free NH4 / NO3 available in the soil. The symptoms on the pepper are absolutely typical for nitrogen deficiency. The older leaves become less and less dark green, turn yellow and in the end sclerotic. That's because the plant moves the nitrogen from the older leaves to the younger ones, to be able to at least keep growing and survive. Was that also the spot where the cardboard dried out? So maybe the woodchips had too little moisture for quite a while, too, so the decomposing of them is in an earlier stage compared to the spots where you don't have problems planting in wood chips. So here the decomposing does not yet free nitrogen, where as in other spots it does. But still: There has to come some nitrogen from other sources from the wood itself, because wood has a high C/N ratio. So maybe here the mykorrhiza doesn't work well enough and can't deliver enough nitrogen from the surrounding?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment. This area was mulched 4 years ago, so nitrogen deficiency due to woodchips is almost impossible at this point. No sawdust or fine particle in here. That's a good question though because sawdust is typically pure heartwood and can be as high as 300:1 C:N ratio. This area was also amended with like 1 foot thick manure and 6 inches of woodchips, so tons of nitrogen. And again, 3 years later now. Nitrogen depletion over 3 years of gardening could be possible, and I will definitely be adding more compost. However I do that every year in the planting holes during sowing. The peppers on the edge of the bed could be planted in poor soils, as the woodchips kind of spilled over a bit, and the soils here on the edge of the bed are poorer (basically just the old lawn underneath). So the peppers on the edge are definitely in worse soils than the ones in the middle of the bed, but even they struggled to live. Further up in the bed, where we used my sister's manure, the same woodchips and sheet mulching was done, and those peppers all did fantastic. Combining all that with brassica doing well in the poor area, but all the aminopyralid plants doing poorly, and having 3 years of mini experiments pointing to the same conclusion, I suspect aminopyralids are the problem. But yes, it's just a hunch and I haven't done soil tests to confirm it. If I were still getting manure from that old place I would, but I don't think it's a concern at my sister's place, which I can confirm with the plants growing in the new compost doing really well. Great comment, will pin this one.

[@svensebastianhorner]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thank you, I appreciate the exchange. You could make a test and apply urine diluted with water 1/10. It's very quick to do and you'll see an effect within days if it is due to lack of N. The NH4 will be resorbed quickly, as you probably know. I usually pee into a watering can or bucket and add 10 times the amount of water. Fresh urine is said to be free of pathogen, if you don't have any infection going on in your urinary tract. ;)

[@Lauradicus]

@@svensebastianhorner this is one reason to use legumes to test for it. It’s not an expensive test, quite simple and fast actually. Plant some peas or beans in a pot with the material you are testing. Plant another batch (same seeds) in a pot with material you know is clean. Compare the results. Leaf curl = AP = very obvious. Check out Charles Dowding’s channel if you need a visual.

[@whereswendy8544]

Here, in parts of BC, Canada, the forestry companies spray a round up- type of herbicide over the deciduous stands to make harvesting timber easier. So it could be possible to bring contaminants in unknowingly.

[@sharilyde]

Thank you. Very good information!!

[@sirjaya2534]

I really enjoyed listening to this. Very informative. Thanks!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks 😊

[@annikasyren3696]

Great information, thanks a lot. I have now shared this in a Swedish Facebook group for Forest gardening.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks for sharing!

[@Lauradicus]

Thank you for this, our soil is such a fundamental component and so many people ignore it. On the subject on aminooyralids… it is a broad leaf herbicide. The fastest cheapest way to test for it is to plant peas or beans in a small pot using the material you are testing. Look for leaf curl. There are plants that will decontaminate soil. Yarrow is used to clean up heavy metals like lead. (Speaking of lead, be careful of chicken wire and hardware cloth!). Sunflowers can help as well. You should be responsible and dispose of these materials (including roots) at the end of the season. Where we are we have to pay for them as toxic waste disposal. For chemicals leached out of things like pressure treated lumber, OSB, galvanized metals etc. a regular application of humic acid (two weeks) over a single season can help tremendously. It won’t remove the chemicals from the soil but will lock them away from plants being able to take them up as they would otherwise. Eventually soil microorganisms will break these chemicals down into innocuous components but it take a long time and a toll on the robustness of the organisms. Char will do the same thing but will release chemicals it absorbs over a very long period of time. Some say water is the source of all life but personally I think soil is right up there at the top.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment. Also for anyone interested in bioremediation of soils, look up the life works of Dr John Todd and his biomachines as well as something called mycoremediation (using mushrooms to bind and lock up toxins).

[@artsyhonkerful]

Sunflowers don't grow well in aminopyralid contaminated soil. (Ask me how I know. Sigh.)

[@Lauradicus]

@@artsyhonkerful No broad leaf plant will grow well in AP contaminated soil. I was just bringing up the topic of bioremediation.

[@nicoledoucet6125]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Paul staments

[@nicoledoucet6125]

Stamets

[@hollybritton7255]

Great information!!

[@patriciacole8773]

I mowed my yard and put the “ grass “ as a mulch. Guess what grows thick in my yard? Plantain. I’ve had to pull seems like thousands of plantain babies this summer in the strawberry beds. Now that fall is here , I have to turn over all the rows to eradicate the rest of the plantain plants. Lord please don’t let it reseed.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

The good news is that plantain is awesome. Great medicinal.

[@formidableflora5951]

So sorry this happened to you. Crucial info, as this situation has become a nightmare for many unsuspecting gardeners. Besides aminopyralids, other things I'm concerned about importing in soil/various mulches/plants (especially potted plants, bareroot less so) are invasive Asian jumping earthworms, Japanese knotweed seeds, and spotted lanternfly egg masses. Incidentally, the spotted lanternfly frequently feeds on tree-of-heaven, which is another pinnately-leaved tree (chart at 4:34) often misidentified as ash or walnut. It's popping up on my site with increasing frequency.

[@jonroberts2445]

It's worth mentioning that if you do have an imported juglone problem, or even a large walnut to plant under, there is a fairly extensive list of juglone tolerant plants and trees that will work in those areas.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

A good start is paw paw, raspberries, currants, but online you can find extensive lists. Thanks for the comment.

[@jonroberts2445]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I have planted a few English walnuts, which have lower Juglone levels than black walnut. However, a buffer zone of stone fruits between the walnuts and apple trees seemed sensible. Those juglone zones, I suspect would also be good spots for the winter squash patch. My thinking is that you can harness the juglone to help suppress the weeds that love the extra fertility of the squash patch, while not affecting the squashes themselves.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I like that... turning a problem into a solution. That's the permaculture way!

[@martybartfast1]

Great content, great delivery and phenominal knowledge Sir. Thank you once again for another wonderful informative and hopeful vid.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Much appreciated!

[@martybartfast1]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy You are so very welcome. It seems to me that when science takes what nature has produced, say the Coca leaf, or the sweet sap of sugar cane, or the milk of the poppy, that it can aid many ailments, often of that location. Coca can help Acute Mountain Sickness, Sugar can, and must give us energy and the poppy seed has documented accounts showing pain relief for a number of conditions. It seems , though; that when you concentrate the active ingredients to say a white powder, it doesn't end up well. Plants have herbicides to protect them, Acacia has been known to kill off large numbers of antelope. It is kind of crazy to adopt the above concentrate technologies into sprays, genes and other such toxins into the food that we are meant to imbibe. I hope we bald monkeys learn soon; that an escalatory pesticide, herbicide or fungiside conflict; is leading towards a slow motion suicide. I wish you all the best in cleansing the soil and doing your bit in action and demonstration. Peace and Love to you and the family

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment!

[@amywiseman3246]

You just answered why my pepper 🫑leaves had a curl & were more of a chartreuse colouring. I had purchased compost in bulk. The wild pepper that sprung from my compost pile that I made was SO much better. Thanks for being so smart🥰 Who knew💩was so complicated😆

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

LOL poop is complicated

[@williammcduff6531]

Thanks for the heads up on the soil contamination issues. A bit of a consolation for you though as Charles Dowding had the same issue either with horse manure or contaminated hay that he used.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately the problem is pretty widespread :(

[@g.g.5516]

Thank you

[@annburge291]

Great video. With the juglans, use it around juglans. Make biochar with the husks, compost the leaves in trenches. It's great on dirt driveways. There are trees that can put up with juglans such as mulberry. Really liked how you mentioned problems with herbacides and horse manure and what to do about it. Glysophate, DDT (still can be found in flea soaps for dogs), dioxins from burning plastic, GMOs, naturally occurring arsenic and fluoride are the start of the problems in my area. I have no idea if I am dealing with my problems adequately. I grow weeds as a way to have something to compost and I am trying to mop up arsenic with biochar, ziolite powder and growing toadstools (to ensure we don't eat them). Everything takes a very long time in drylands...years.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, dry soils can really take a long time to break toxins down.

[@renatehaeckler9843]

I use compost from my sheep barn in the garden. One year we bought hay from a different seller. It was contaminated. Nothing I planted grew in the garden, some plants like the onions just sort of died and some had misshappen leaves and some just didn't grow. Pretty sure he'd sprayed his pasture before cutting the hay. I had to move my garden to a new spot. 7 years later, that area is still hit or miss on what will grow there and what won't. Weeds will grow there.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah this can be a problem that lasts a LONG time.

[@Tsuchimursu]

another potential contaminant - previous land owner dumping car batteries and burning CRTVs and other mind boggling practises yup, happened to me

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

WOW

[@SuperiorNorthwestRailfanning]

Amazing video. Thanks for the great information 😃😃🙊. Would of made that error this year. When I would of started prepping my soil for next year. Game Changer.. Thanks so much.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Glad to help!

[@karenw9996]

I buy my aged manure from a mixed-animal organic farm, but it isn't always aged completely so I HAVE brought in some weeds. Fortunately for me, those 'weeds' were purslane, lambs quarter, mallow...😁

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

ooooh those are some nice "weeds"! I've been trying to naturalize purslane for years now.

[@artsyhonkerful]

My understanding is that you also shouldn't compost any of the plants that grow in aminopyralid-contaminated soil, because some of them (not all of them) will bind the aminoypralid to lignin, and these will be released again when the lignin breaks down. I have a section of my allotment contaminated with this stuff from some manure we had; we haven't had problems before, but I think in lockdown the stables were having difficulty getting hold of organic feed, and just had to feed the horses whatever they could get. My current plan is to grow corn on it, then dry the corn stalks and turn them into biochar -- I think the combustion process should be hot enough to denature the aminopyralid. After harvesting the corn I'll test with peas to see if the area is still contaminated, and if it is, I'll repeat the process. And in future I'll stick to other sources of nutrients. I've managed to arrange to get a wheelbarrow of spent coffee grounds delivered every week, so will be composting that (and woodchips) instead.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, I have found that if I get the compost hot, and I use biochar in it, that my "bean test" passes and the compost is okay.

[@artsyhonkerful]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I have definitely tried composting the manure and that's... not been 100% successful. Haven't tried biochar in any quantity yet. But it's on the list, for sure! (We're not supposed to have bonfires at the allotment, but we're allowed to use a BBQ -- so I'm limited to pretty small batches.)

[@tonydyvr]

Another fantastic video - I'm really loving your channel and the work/background you put into your advice! I have kind of a related question - I'm looking to amend my vegetable garden area (mostly tomatoes) now that the growing season is winding down so I'm ready for next spring. In addition to putting an overlayer of organic material, I was thinking about planting something like crimson clover (seed now, and again in the spring) to help put some Nitrogen compounds into the soil and choke out weeds. A quick Google search shows that they are good companion plants, and by the time my tomato plants go in the ground, they're tall enough to not be choked out by groundcover. But I'd rather not introduce something that I'd have a hard time removing if it turns out later to be detrimental to any other plants in my garden. So I was wondering if, in your experience, clover is just a generally good all-around companion for veggies. Thanks for all your help and advice!!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's a great plan. Absolutely. As far as them getting in the way of tomatoes, you can just cut the area low at the time of transplanting the tomatoes in order to give them a head start. Then just keep an eye on the area for the first few weeks. Once the tomatoes get up a foot or so, they won't have any problem, ajd they will actually enjoy being with the clover. More soil shade, less splashing of fungal disease spores like fuscerium wilt during rains, nitrogen fixation, etc. Great companion.

[@melanieallen8980]

Thankyou!

[@thehillsidegardener3961]

It's nasty stuff, I pulled out of a deal to get manure from a local riding stables because I just couldn't be sure if it was safe. I may still grab a sample from their big aged pile to test. As to juglone in leaves, my neighbours always dump off a fair few walnut leaves along with lots of other leaves for me, including even some coniferous stuff and I never sweat it too much, doesn't seem to be a problem, leaves take an age to break down anyway so I'm either making leaf mould or using it as a mulch, either way I think it has ample time to break down.

[@catherinelauda6948]

Oh! Seems like my problem! Had some soil transported nothing grows in it.

[@j-flessard3274]

i get my manure from a neighbor that do organic beef for themselves i should be ok but i'm gonna talk to them just to be on the safe side. tks again for amazing and informative video

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good luck :) thanks for the comment.

[@linalaurin4469]

I got my garden contaminated with aminopyralide from manure from my own pigs and chicken :( So heads up if you buy chicken or pig food (not hey) The main part of the food I bought was barley, wheat and oats. I can not buy organic due to severe fish allergy in the family. In Sweden were I live the producers can not guarantee that the organic chicken and pig food is free from fish meal and I can't risk anaphylactic shock of a family members :(

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Sorry to hear that

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

Great video and information!! I'm terrified of getting broad leaf herbicides in the garden. We just finished our compost and did a soil test (growing veggies) everything was fine thankfully!! Unfortunately the Premium bagged compost we trialed it against killed our veggies!! Discouraging to say the least. Cheers from Victoria!!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Smart that you tested first

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy yes but it scary to think that the bagged compost ($5 for 20L bag) can do that to your garden. I'd rather not say the brand name but it's one of the most popular 1's!!!

[@Lauradicus]

@@clivesconundrumgarden please share the brand name. These companies need to be held accountable. As consumers we should also look out for each other.

[@MsCaterific]

I 1000% agree with @Laura Dicus so long as you're not Oprah Winfrey you can give any company a bad review. Honest reviews are so very important for consumers. I'm sure you would have wanted to know about this brand before you spent your precious $$.

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

@@Lauradicus we're doing another test. Tracking and recording it. I agree with you but we're new to gardening and wanna make sure before sharing.

[@nicoledoucet6125]

Hi there, enjoy all your videos from bc interior! Do you need to inoculate the bio char before putting in the compost? Does the compost do this naturally? Thank you for your time and info! Kind regards, Nicole

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

No the compost will do that naturally. If you did have another source if fertility though, you could always do that first and then put it into the compost. For example, if you have a pond you can submerge it for a week in a barrel first.

[@pattibando3104]

Awesome information. Never knew cows had more than one stomach lol Do now lol Thanks really enjoyed this video

[@tracyleal2609]

Charles Dowding is doing experiments with this in his garden. Very interesting.

[@guillem4630]

Hi, have a question related to the video. Are pecan shells a bad adittion to the wood chips pile? Thank you for being always close, mostly in these difficult times we live in this planet.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

They can, because the Carya family also produces juglone. I would just turn them into biochar, and it would burn off the juglone.

[@IS-217]

GREAT TOPIC Thanks for sharing. I'm 99% sure this is the problem my sister inlaw has been dealing with the past 2 years in her garden ever since she switched to a woodchip style garden. We got our woodchips from the same source, but they added a layer of "FREE!" horse manure before the chips. My forest garden has been doing so well. Hers not so much. Its so disheartening when nothing works out for her. I'm not sure what to do to help her. They tilled it into the topsoil as well so its in there fairly deep I would imagine. Do you still think raking all of the chips and a decent layer of soil is her best option. Start fresh with new chips on top of some good quality compost underneath? Or should she remove everything and let her garden go wild for next year wild weeds and wild flowers, doing this I would think would help draw in the most microbes to help break down anything left behind in the soil? Then chop down the wild plants and sow a winter rye to keep things going in the winter as long as possible. Then chop everything at soil level in the spring, throw down some cardboard mulch, then good quality compost, then woodchips, then plant and cross fingers haha. Brutal situation. I feel bad for her and anyone else going through this. Cheers Keith

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Man it's tough. I think removing the soil and remediating it is a bit of a high work and low success rate option. I think just building on top of it is the best way to go. Ideally she can get some new manure/compost now, she can do a bean-test (plant some beans in it and see if it works) and do that before she adds it onto the garden.

[@arexius3]

what are these trellises for in the back of your annual garden? I dont remember you mentionning them anywhere. Wood chips of juglan or cedar might be good for paths though.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's the north edge of the garden, so I wanted to get vertical back there. I planted tomatoes all along the back edge, but they all were stunted due to the aminopyralid and never grew whatsoever.

[@alisonmcinnis9997]

First! You are a content producing machine!

[@alisonmcinnis9997]

Pacing was fantastic on this video. I watched 11 mins and felt like it had only just started. You left me wanting more.

[@KollanHouse]

Get a soil sample for confirmation?

[@JoelElder2013]

Also, on a side note, my grandfather who was an amazing gardener told me when I was really young, never ever use horse manure on your garden, it always invites problems. Obviously this was way before Curtail and chemicals like it were introduced into the market. But he had other reasons for his concern, unfortunately I can't recall what they were.

[@debbiehenri345]

I live near a riding stables and have been kicking myself for ages for not getting organised and offering to take manure. Seems like I did the right thing. Some time ago, I did look up a list of different animal manures to see which were high on nutrition - and it seems deer and sheep score very well, with cow manure being the worst because of the high water content. Sheep manure would have to come off wild grazing areas, because those kept in fields around me are supplemented with a bit of straw/hay at times during the winter, so the same problems with herbicides may well be apparent; and deer droppings are pretty rare.

[@JoelElder2013]

@@debbiehenri345 in my experience, which is a bit dated mind you, as I'm not officially a farmer anymore, Curtail or chemicals with the same active ingredient aren't used much in my area (SE SK) on pastures or hay land other than maybe the first few seasons to help establish the stand and only if thistles are a real issues, this is primarily because its ridiculously expensive and also because of the residue its known to leave. I'd be much more concerned with this chemical residue being on the straw bales I get to mulch my garden, as I've not located a source for woodchips yet in my area.

[@JoelElder2013]

For what it's worth llama and alpaca manure is my favorite manure for gardens. Seems to be absolutely super charged, but never seems to burn and as an added benefit..... They will deposit all their waste in a single pile in their pen, making it super easy to clean up! 😂

[@universalradio6944]

Horse manure is the quickest way to bring weeds onto your property as they don't digest seeds and they just pass through. Also horse wormer is carnage on compost worms. In my area horse owners can't pay to have the poo taken away since people became aware of this .

[@MsCaterific]

💙🌿💙 Thx!

[@ilDreadmakermichele]

Biochar could absorbs aminopyralide and inibits his decomposition So I would add it in the last turning

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah that's the part I'm not sure about. Biochar isn't just activated carbon, which would simply bind it up. Buochar is also full of microbiology. The question would be if they would est biochar attached to the charcoal or not. That I have no idea or evidence of. But the process you mentioned would be a good idea to mitigate it, incase it doesn't.

[@cactuslove6708]

Turpentine too brother, in pine trees.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Careful, this is a long standing garden myth and isn't true. What is in the pine tree/shavings are turpenes, and these are completely safe. Industrial turpentine processes extract these turpenes and then through distillation and other processes can turn them into turpentine and rosin. It's this turpentine that is the solvent we would be concerned with, but it's not present in pine shavings - only turpenes are (and they are perfectly safe). To give a comparable analogy, this would be similar to saying that you shouldn't use manure in your garden because you can make nitroglycerin with manure.

[@cactuslove6708]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy interesting, thanks for sharing!

[@SuperiorNorthwestRailfanning]

Have questions does Black or Green Ash leaves carry juglone gen?? Have a bunch on my front lawn and back lawn.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Nope, no juglone in ash, they are safe.

[@SAROXBAND]

Question on the Aminopyralids... would the same effect of the 2 stomachs work with Goats? Our 2 Togs have completely regenerated parts of our land’s top soil. We’re thinking of bringing in more!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I'm not sure. I also don't think you will find much research on it either.

[@SAROXBAND]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I know and the Hay we use comes from anywhere… we really need to start looking for other options. Thanks anyways! Always learning here 👏👏👏

[@liabobia]

I have this exact problem from horse manure in a few growing areas. Composting in situ (basically throwing a bunch of compostable stuff on the beds raw) every fall for the past three years seems to have helped - beans still come up loopy, but I can grow decent eggplant as of this year. It's a real shame because I can't produce any animal manure myself and we don't have municipal chip piles, so the local riding stables seemed like a godsend.

[@saraht6562]

Lia, do you not have animals digging up your gardens when you put compostable stuff directly into them? I’m assuming you’re talking about veggie scraps? I can’t even put seeds in the ground without them being pecked by birds, and even my sunflower seedlings all got eaten this year.

[@liabobia]

@@saraht6562 I used to, but after inviting wildlife into my yard with hedges, I don't have them anymore. I think the increase in rabbits (I replaced my lawn with clover and weeds) brought in hawks, which ate other vermin.

[@saraht6562]

@@liabobia brilliant, so things are working as they should. We have skunks and raccoons that show up, and I don’t think there are really many natural predators for those. I want to replace what’s left of my lawn with clover this spring. The bunnies show up anyway, so might as well give them something to eat that isn’t the rest of my plants!

[@kyleor7]

Hope you don't mind another question! I grew up in the Collingwood area and now live between Sudbury and North Bay. I've looked EVERYWHERE for Jerusalem artichokes, Egyptian walking onions, Comfrey and Asparagus starters - nobody has them (or look at me like I'm crazy!) If I make a trip down south where should I be looking?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I got my JAs from a guy at work, and walking onions and comfrey from Richter's Herbs in Uxbridge.

[@Cyclonut96]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Ah, I thought you were saying you live in northern Ontario? I am in Wasaga Beach, zone 6A, which to other Ontarians is probably southern Ontario. So you are near Uxbridge?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I'm in Ontario yes. I'm between Ottawa and London. LOL That's about as specific as I like to get. :)

[@kyleor7]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy just bookmarked their site for the spring. If you ever start selling tubers and bulbs I'm happy to pay in BTC!

[@Big-Government-Is-The-Problem]

i have a question, so my uncle owns a Tyson chicken farm and he has mountains of manure that i could get for free, some of which is years old and is fully broken down. Tyson of course is not an organic company, and the chickens almost certainly eat some type of GMO grain that has been sprayed with bad chemicals. so my question is do you think this manure would be safe to use in my organic garden? its tons and tons of free fertilizer so its pretty tempting.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Years later it should be fine. Just to be safe, do the bean test that I mention at the end of the video.

[@joanies6778]

Doesn't growing sunflowers in that soil help to detoxify it?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yes indeed! Sunflowers are very tolerant to many heavy metals and are being used in recent phytoremediation projects to detoxify land.

[@yamfingaz5598]

Cl9ver is most definitely not unhealthy for cattle 😂. We spray broadleaf herbicide in hay paddocks for other non palatable weeds. Clover is very welcome and desired to help milk on

[@SgtScourge]

Can turning it into a mushroom garden for a few years break this stuff down?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I think researchers are trying to figure that out right now. The soil residence time depends on moisture and heat, but its in the range of 6 months to a few years. I would think that having a good fungal networks would speed that up tremendously.

[@davidburling8957]

Are aminopyralids a problem with sheep manure? I use bagged manure from Canadian Tire.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yes I belive it can be. The largest concern tends to be horses because their digestive system really does nothing at all to it, so it all comes out the other side. Sheep don't have a cows incredible digestive system so it's likely a problem there also.

[@intimatespearfisher]

Hi would eucalypt mulch cause the same problem as walnut in that it can suppress growth? In aus alot of the cheap mulch has chopped up gumtrees. It's our natural weed!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Eucalyptus leaves are totally safe as mulch. ccmg.ucdavis.edu/HortCoCo/?blogpost=22422&blogasset=12496#:~:text=While%20it%20is%20true%20that,quantities%20into%20a%20growing%20medium.

[@intimatespearfisher]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy thanks!

[@damedesmontagnes]

I had mulched my garden beds with leaf mold and got dog vomit fungus problem :

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Not a problem, dog vomit slime (not a fungus) looks awful but is beneficial.

[@SgtScourge]

Whether something grows or not in it, you wouldn't want to eat something grown in that would you? Or is it not harmful to humans?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Current research is pointing towards it being safe in low doses, but the same was initially said about glypohosates. Current thinking about glyphosates isn't as bad as extremists may warn, but its also looking like it's much MUCH worse than originally thought.

[@SgtScourge]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy isn't so hard to live in between both these worlds? Lol. Feels like there's nobody to talk to because it's usually either "everything is fine, don't worry about anything" or "everything is horrible, they are all out to get us" 😅 I'm coming from engineering as well. I just want to know the facts, I don't care which way they land.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Exactly lol

[@theurbanthirdhomestead]

Any idea how you would tell aminopyralid problem from the fungus blight? All the things you describe, curling leaves and yellowing of tomatoes, peppers, etc... happened to me this year, but I thought it was blight. Could it have been bad soil?

[@Lauradicus]

Put some of the material you are testing in a pot. Plant some peas or beans (fast growing and not susceptible to fungus blight). Take another pot of garden soil or manure-free compost and plant the same seeds at the same time compare the growth after 2 weeks. You will see a marked difference if APs are there.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Laura, this is the best way to do a quick test. I also included a link to a bioassay test in the video description. Make sure you guys always check out the description section, as I always put good info in there.

[@theurbanthirdhomestead]

@@Lauradicus thank you!

[@Lauradicus]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Always

[@jenniferd1068]

So we need to be concerned about Aminopyralids contaminating our meat if cows or other animals are consuming this?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would think that they would bioaccumulate it, yes. They bioaccumulate glyphosate. That being said, I'm not a scientist in that field, and getting a straight story on glyphosate took decades, so...

[@janinaberghoff4986]

I've actually checked this (having a horse myself and planning to do some composting with his "byproducts") and I've seen in several sources that aminopyralids are destroyed by UV/Sunlight (pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Aminopyralid). So even if your horse manure has "hay with spray" in it, apparently if you let it sit in the sun until dry the aminopyralids will be destroyed. Don't forget to moisten again though when adding to compost :) Love your videos btw, very inspiring. I really want to start a Food Forest as soon as I can (looking at properties these days).