How much does a permaculture food forest cost?

[@cryptokeeper6713]

Sanity check...yes, do that! ROI, is good for those calculating input vs. return in business/home economics. But, as you said, ....what you're getting back cannot be measured by what is in the store. MAYBE what you get at the farmer's market booths..(IF you can find them there)....but, also....don't forget the benefit you get by the peace and pleasure of walking through the land you KNOW you're improving, and watching your food grow, with no need to drive anywhere. Priceless ROI !!

[@mikemike5516]

Spot on.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed! I had about a 5 minute complete tangent that I cut out in editing that talked about exactly this. Sometimes I get up on my soap box if nobody is here to stop me. I cut it out because the video was already long enough. But I talked about this stuff.... What dollar tag do you put on better health? On stress reduction and increased life expectancy? On higher energy? Higher libido? What price can you put on life fulfillment? On connection to nature? On Inner peace? Or a new found discovered purpose? I went on and on and on... There are many more benefits than money here.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy on being able to watch bunnies nibble on your strawberries and butterflies, bees and all kinds of insects "throwing" themselves into the flowers you planted or listening to birds singing all day long? In the spring I can locate floweing fruit trees by sound of the pollinators, which are sometimes buzzing so loud, that I can't hear my own thoughts anymore :D

[@lisakukla459]

Not to mention the security and peace of mind knowing you're that much more resilient, given the ever increasing uncertainty we're seeing in all directions.

[@carolewarner101]

Crypto Keeper, that's exactly what I intended to come down here and comment on! The payoff that's not been factored in here is entertainment, peace and contentment value. People do a lot of things for entertainment. They have expensive hobbies, etc. Golf aint cheap! Quilting is expensive, etc. Even going to a movie costs $25+ for the movie and food, gas, parking, etc. Gardening, enjoying your harvest, sharing your abundance with family, friends, neighbors and even the local food bank, enjoying the insect, bird (and birdsong) and wildlife out in your garden, etc. have become one of the greatest joys of our life! So if you factor in all the money I save on doing those kinds of things because I spend it on my garden and fruit trees, then you've got entertainment that's paying you to do it! I also grow so many things/varieties that don't "keep" well enough to be transported to stores or that are just so unusual that there's not a reliable market for sellers, so I get to eat varieties that I can't find at a grocery store or even farmers markets! And those varieties are often THE most tasty ones... Special varieties of tomatoes, melons, squash, beans, ground cherries, other fruits (paw paw ice cream is divine but you'll never find it at the store), etc. And he talks about buying your calories vs growing your nutrients, but a home grown potato vs store bought is night and day the same way it is for tomatoes. They're so much sweeter and creamier than the starchy things you can get at the grocery store. And there's just the freshness factor as well. Things like pesto are really expensive in the store and so much cheaper and more delicious/fresh made from your own basil, garlic, lemon juice and walnuts. Sure you have to buy the olive oil and parmesan cheese, but you can also add arugula and other greens to add flavor and deliciousness the stores can only dream about! Anyway, the joy, endless hours of entertainment, the learning, the pantry full of canned tomatoes, pickles, dried beans, apple sauce, sour kraut, kim chi, garlic, onions, squash, peppers, herbs, teas, frozen berries, pesto, green beans, and on and on. Gardening is one of our biggest forms of entertainment and spiritual/emotional growth. And don't get me started on the savings in medical bills due to improved health!!! Oh, last thing. Back when the pandemic first hit, people went berserk buying everything they could get their hands on at the store. Shelves were empty! But we didn't have to worry. We had plenty to eat out our back door, on our pantry shelves and in our freezer. Talk about priceless...I mean literally, you can't buy what aint there! Just sayin...

[@alp8409]

A bird kindly fertilized my back garden with a blackberry seed. The plant grew up last year. This year I've cut back the runner and the canes remaining are laden with berries. Cost to me in money zero.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

my best raspberries "entered" my garden like that. I also bought some named varieties, but the "birdy raspberries" taste the best :)

[@worksmith5223]

I think it was Bill Mollison that suggested putting in about $1000 of plants in (this was in the 70's) to see what grows best for you in your area when establishing the perennial gardens we now call food forests. Great sharing of experience and knowledge. The side benefits of all the plants is not so linear. I like that you emphasised growing what you like to eat and making great foods more affordable anywhere and anyhow. The sum is more than the parts.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment

[@petereisenzopf7663]

This is one of the best and most important videos you have made. There aren't many videos on line that discuss the economics of food forests and you did a nice job with your estimates. My 3 year old food forest in Albany NY has cost me some real money in dollars and time but I harvest from it throughout the growing season and purchase very little food. The quality of the food is very high compared to store bought and the varieties you can grow are far more diverse than what you can buy. At year three I suspect that my production is probably 10% of what it will be 5 to 10 years from now. My biggest advice is to not think of this as a cost. Rather, think of it as an investment that will pay you back for the rest of your life. Instead of investing money in a mutual fund or stock, take a bit of that money and invest in yourself in the form of a food forest. Thanks for taking the time to make and share all of these great videos!

[@FebbieG]

My husband gave me a peach tree several years ago, soon after we moved onto our property. Last year, we got our first big harvest, and it was so fabulous. We would all start the day with a fresh peach off the tree on the way to take care of the chickens. Sadly, no peaches this year, probably because we over-taxed it last year (having not thinned at all) and snowmageddon, but I'm very hopeful for next year. When my husband and I were dating, and you know how it goes where you ask each other a ton of questions both serious and silly, I asked him what his favorite fruit was. Without hesitation, he said "peach" and as a suburban girl, my reaction was almost of disgust. Every single peach I had ever tried (except canned) was gross,. So I did not understand his enthusiasm. Then, after we got married, we visited his parents during peach season, and I finally understood. So good.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

haha! Awesome story. It really makes you question your entire pallet. What foods do you like, which do you dislike. Have you ever even tasted what they ACTUALLY taste like?

[@FebbieG]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Brussel Sprouts is another one. I grew up with my dad boiling or steaming store bought ones. Yuck. Then, I tasted my mother-in-laws's roasted, home grown ones, and had them in her soups. Fabulous. And asparagus too. And tomatoes.

[@charlesdevier8203]

That first peach off of your tree makes it worth all the work.

[@formidableflora5951]

A fascinating analysis--don't think I've ever seen anything like it! While your detailed accounting is essential to make the point that a food forest pays for itself, I hope folks don't forget that they are rebuilding an ancient relationship to the land, not simply "installing" a garden. In leaner, earlier years, I planted sticks and seeds when I could afford them, and we've matured together; if you can't afford a whole guild, just plant something and grow some patience because those sticks will pay the way for more sticks. (Love how you finish out your intro with "Stick around!" lol.)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

LOL, I'm such a dad I'm throwing puns out even when I don't intend them! This is a great comment. I say the same thing to all my consultants when we're designing their space together. This isn't a project where you design it, plant it, and now you have a garden. This is a lifelong journey. You and your land. You will constantly be changing your land, and your land will constantly be changing you. You will grow together.

[@marcogallazzi9049]

I'm doing the same, there's so much I want to plant and then I look at my budget and start looking at friends with some tree i can reproduce 😁. There's a nice relationship to growing along with your garden 👍🏼

[@PaleGhost69]

"If it was once alive, it can be mulch" So what you're saying is I finally have a use for all those body bags.

[@amywiseman3246]

🤔are the bags biodegradable?

[@PaleGhost69]

@@amywiseman3246 No but perfectly reusable!

[@FebbieG]

Compost your enemies.

[@annburge291]

What? Obviously I don't get it. You don't live in Mexico. A body bag is a horror finding here... And if there is enough violence, we just end up with clandestine body pits that aren't biodegradable enough. .

[@AndrewCraigPianoPlayer]

Ex Wives???

[@mathidicusalbrighticus]

I love walking around my food forest saying, “so good!”

[@Paravetje]

I started with strawberries a couple of years ago, and I'm getting so much out of them. I also grow some herbs in pots. We're in the process of moving to another country, to have more space to start a permaculture food forest. Luckily my husband is just as excited for the food forest as I am. Can't wait.

[@champagnewalkersequinemass3568]

I get 10” of rain /y. I used to get 13”. No water no plants

[@hhwippedcream]

Also, think on self-seeding medicinals and edibles as annual cover crop. They may show up in places you hoped they would not but they are a major buffet for pollinators, provide off-season food/medicine/fiber benefits and require no labor. As one gets to know each cover species one can utilize these as indicators. Such a great practical video. Thanks so much for your time and dedication, Keith.

[@nataliepearl1979]

I moved to a cottage town, that most ppl come to enjoy the lakeside from June to Sept long. Some of these ppl are crazy. The landscaping I see on land that’s already in nature and their suppose to be holiday oh on is hilarious. I don’t rake, I chop and drop I have 8 tree species around the perimeter of my yard about 5 feet deep or more. I don’t even mow😆 Most of my yards forrest is doing quite well all on its own and has great mycelium under the leaves. It’s kind of impressive. I never even looked until watching your videos. I’m currently planning out perennials for my yard. More grass has to go. lol and several raised garden beds. There was tons here for free. Saskatoons, chokecherries, yarrow, strawberries. Wild flowers. I can’t wIt to build on it. This was our first summer here. We got this place for way less then a house in the city. Best thing we ever did. Now I just need to wrap my head around how you direct your water.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

So exciting! Great stuff

[@johnnyblaaze467]

Ill do it when I find the right land near Québec. Ive been following for a while, I found you when you said something on reddit promoting your channel. Every video you post brings me closer to actually doing it

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Awesome!

[@VK-qo1gm]

I watched this video looking at the nutritional, beautiful eco system of health that you have created, & didn't hear a word re the 'cost' of creating similar. In starting a private food Forrest/veg garden the motivation has to be stronger than the monetary gain. The benefits of eating home grown produce, be it from a small balcony or 100's of acres outweigh input hands down. Even whilst we were renting, we grew our own food, I started to obsessively collect cuttings, seeds,plants, fruit trees & yes all my friends who exclusively eat & feed their family junk food thought I was crazy. Moving on 6 yrs, hubby & I purchased acreage, we both work full time & spent every moment building our fruit & veg gardens, with little planning, things seemed to evolve along the way. There is no price that can be placed on fresh, clean food grown on your own property or tubs for those living in small apartments. So many seem to think it's all too expensive, yet don't factor in how much money they might spend weekly on junk food or medication due to an unhealthy lifestyle. These gardens bring so many benefits, putting nutrients into the body, free excercise, healthy mindset, something to involve the whole family, instead of sitting Infront of a tv eating junk. Look at how many foods have been recalled in the last few yrs, look at all the imported food that is on the market. The less that food has to travel to get to the plate outweighs costs, yes carrots can be purchased cheap, with no nutrients or any benefits, that cheap price is not what I want to feed my family with, yet a pack of carrot seeds cost near to nothing We have to stop looking at the cost of growing our own food, start from seeds & cuttings, once motivated, doors start opening where & how to find resources, ei mulch, how to make own compost,etc. Our health & well being should never be compromised. Sorry for long post, I'm very passionate about all of us growing our own food, one seed at a time. Love your videos!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is such a fantastic comment. Thank you so much for adding it.

[@clivesconundrumgarden]

Great perspective. Another huge factor is taste. Grocery stores cannot compete on nutrient density and flavor.

[@longarmsupplies]

I don't focus on one spot at a time. I have a main plan. When plants go on sale(I've got so many at half price at my local, high quality greenhouse)in the fall, I purchase what I need that year and goodness they are great. I've had better luck with fall plantings than spring plantings. This spring I'll be trying to source some bare root trees to add to the food forest. Become familiar with local suppliers. I have a new best friend in my supplier, and she's gifted me plants at the end of the year saying "just take 'em, you'll be the only one to get them to survive"...The next spring, they burst to life!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's a good friend to have!

[@carolewarner101]

Wow Veta, that's awesome!

[@FionasFireflyFarms]

Oooh thank you for the point I can give my family that plants are a high appreciation item 😊 what a good point! Never heard it said quite that way

[@williammcduff6531]

Keith, Another very good video and thanks for walking us through the economics of a food forest. As you stated you can't compare the quality of what we can grow to that of store bought. Made a greek salad for supper and both the tomatoes and cucumbers from the garden actually tasted sweet due to freshness and nutrition. Good explanation of the principles of R.O.I.(Return on Investment) another financial metric you could use which would be even more impressive is D.C.F. or Discounted Cash Flow. In simple terms does the return exceed the cost of capital if you were to borrow the money to plant your food forest and yes it would by a long shot. Keep up the good work!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Indeed, I wanted to keep this as simple as possible. To talk about DCF I would have to explain the time-value of money, and probably talk a little about weighted average cost of the capital, etc. I didn't want eyes to glaze over. And the thing is, DCF is all about providing more granularity for borderline questionable investments. Sometimes an investment looks questionable but when you start looking at future expected cash flows and model that properly (using DCF) then the investment starts looking more palatable. The thing is though... Planting a tree is such a BOMB investment that you don't even really need DCF. If you can manage to keep a tree alive for it's first major production year, it instantly pays off itself plus maybe 4-8 failed trees. Then it does that again every year. It's just such a slam dunk.

[@melanieallen8980]

yes!!! I have started a food forest in my garden & I can see the neighbours looking over the fence & thinking its a mess!!😀cardboard down ready4 nodig gardens.😀

[@gardentours]

When I got my garden I was directly buying trees. They've been very small and most of them are still in pots after 3-5 years because I have to find the right place for them. But they are growing and producing fruit already 🤗🍏🍐🍎🍑

[@passiflora1695]

One thing to keep in mind with chickens is that they can accumulate lead to potentially dangerous level in their bodies and eggs from the soil if you live somewhere exposed to lead paint, leaded gasoline, etc. Most plants don't accumulate heavy metals, though some like sunflowers can, so you wouldn't want to use those as mulch if you live somewhere with heavy metals. The flip side of that is they can be used for soil remediation if you dispose of them properly.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's true. And if that's the case for anyone here, make sure you get your fungal networks pumping. Fungi are amazing at locking up toxic nutrients and binding them in a way that makes them safe. Check out the work of Dr. John Todd and his "biomachines" for more info on that specific topic. Key word search would be "mycoremediation"

[@passiflora1695]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy that sounds cool! I'll check it out

[@lynsmith2698]

I am so excited I found your channel. I am newly retired and started a food forest in 2019, not knowing what I was doing. We had fenced in a 30x50 area for our fruit trees and bees. We live in northern bc (zone 3) in bear country. I wanted to get rid of all the grass and hoary hawk weed but didn’t really know how to go about. But then one day I found ur channel. Thank you so much for all your info. 🇨🇦🐝l

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good luck! Make sure to check out the sheet mulching guides. They sound perfect for your situation.

[@marcogallazzi9049]

I know the quality of these videos, so my thumb up is right at the beginning, because I'm grateful you posted it. This is a topic that isn't usually addressed, but it is something that many of us wants to have some information of. I hope I wrote that right 😁

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

So kind, thank you.

[@Darkice77]

I made a 1 acre rectangle and spent about 5 thousand on trees bushes and vines. There is a huge local nursery not too far from me that had almost everything i needed. All the fruit trees were producing and 99 dollars each. All the berry bushes were producing at 9 to 15 dollars each. A few weird things i bought from fastgrowingtrees. I wanted to get all the big stuff in this year. Next spring ill work more on the understory plants. I'm thinking about getting a couple dozen cranberry plants because they keep their fruit all winter. Just have to watch out for the birds

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Wow that's amazing. HUGE

[@LynnDerriman]

Food for thought (of the highest nutritional value as always) - thanks Keith.

[@donreinier7281]

Creating food forest areas where mowing is tough. Hillsides etc work well with woodchips to smother weeds. I propagate new plants when I clean up in the winter. Bag of sand with cuttings. Easy and I will do this for cash someday. Make a plan, start, and have fun!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

The key in these areas is heavily over-sow. Make sure that what pops up is what you want. So densely so that volunteers have a hard time growing.

[@beretgascon]

Another great video! 👍🌞 Your Voltaire quote was actually CSLewis: “When the whole world is running towards a cliff, he who is running in the opposite direction appears to have lost his mind.” We, the few, are indeed the ones, the only ones it seems to me, running the other way. What they think of us, frankly, is their issue, not mine. 😎

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Oh thanks for that!

[@branchingoutpermaculturewi4766]

best video yet. cheapest way to do permaculture is grow from seed. steal cutting from friends. source woodchips from your municpality. make your own soil. it slower yes but more rewarding. i personally dont want to wait three or five year for results so i paid the bucks. cheers and yes picking right from the tree or bush there is nothing better

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Well said! I think a mix of the two are a great general approach. Fill some of your space with larger more expensive known-variety trees. These will produce sooner and reward you right away. That is so valuable. It keeps us inspired and motivated. Then flesh out the food forest with some "salvage". Obviously if someone only has room for a 10 foot by 10 foot guild, then just spend money and get all known-quanities. Each person can figure out where their optimal strategy is.

[@marcmagus0]

Good analysis. I didn't notice an update on these economics so might be worth a revisit sometime. I'm a little uncomfortable with calling something which requires regular labor "passive income". A good addition to the accounting would be hours of labor per sq.ft. for install and hours of labor per sq.ft. per year for maintenance. Even for a one-person backyard farm like we have that would let you account for what you value your leisure time at. It'll never be a perfect comparison, but there's a big difference between "I'll get $2-3/sq.ft./yr worth of food for zero effort after installation" (untrue) and "I'll get $2-3/sq.ft./yr worth of food but I'll have to work 2 hours/day for it" (obviously also untrue) and someone starting out won't have a good estimate for it.

[@maureenodonnell9600]

Hello Keith, thank you for another great video. Throughout the years, dating back to the nineties, I have had the fortune to find peach trees growing from my composted beds. All in all I’ve planted about a dozen of the seedlings with great results. Some peach trees put out golf ball size peaches that stayed green yet tasted like a burst of peach sugar, absolutely delicious! Others have produced softball size peaches that were incredible too. I knew when planting them, that it was a gamble as to what I’d get. The seeds were obviously from peaches that I canned, coming from Grand Junction, Colorado. Right now, I am going into my 3rd summer of building tree guilds and I have 4 apricots and 3 peach trees that I planted from the compost. I’m looking forward to seeing what I get 😊. Again, thanks for the great video!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's so cool! And I bet even the gold ball sized peach trees probably look fantastic as a landscaping tree (that also gives snacks).

[@maureenodonnell9600]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy yes they do!

[@bobburkinshaw6418]

Good stuff! I think one thing that helps a lot is sharing and exchanging with friends and neighbours. We have surplus raspberry canes that we enjoy giving away and have been giving away dozens of strawberry plants and some mulberry cuttings that I rooted. Our growing stock of comfrey was originally given to us by a neighbour and we have some blueberry plants that someone couldn't use and gave to us. Certainly we have to buy some things but many have been free. Not only does this reduce costs but I find that we are developing a community of likeminded people and we are learning as we share.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

So important. This is the kind of thing that binds humanity towards a positive vector. I think the biggest thing we have lost over the last 100 years are those solid community interactions.

[@UrbanHomesteadArtist]

I am uploading my first anniversary urban food forest video today and thinking about the cost. We kept it pretty low and pretty tickled at the savings already. Money is certainly the least rewarding benefit from creating a food forest but it’s fun to create abundance from far less. I totally geeked out on your video 😂

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

❤️

[@martybartfast1]

I have got to say (type) that I love your work Sir! So well put together, such depth and humility in knowledge. Such abundance in evidence. It works. "Compared to what?", well; give me the data and I'll research... that you do; or give ref' to those more qualified. Study and emersion, attempting and failing, finding success and flowing with that... all are stepping stones to finding a sustainable way. You calm me. I've just been to an ADHD client who has anger issues... a late night call out. Watching you describe the ways to a nutrient dense, high productivity food forest with patient reactivity to a flowing process, just makes me chill. I thank you. Best wishes to you, and yours. Peace love and growth to you all. m

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks so much. I think being inside nature heals. There is a lot of evidence of it helping kids with ADHD, Alzheimers, anxiety, etc.

[@eleonorabartoli2225]

Thank you for the great info and inspirarion! Especially useful because I would like to retire soon. I had never thought about a food forest this way!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good luck with your brand new retirement life! Exciting!

[@hakdov6496]

i am eagerly awaiting the plant sale at my favorite nursery coming up this fall

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It's like Christmas morning for me LOL.

[@aadamstory]

I'm looking for answer for days, and suddenly you answer it for me :) thanks thankssss

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Happy to help!

[@edscukas9689]

I think one other way a smaller plot has an advantage is availability to organic resources I.e woodchips and leaves etc. You need a lot less and in rural areas like mine they are harder to come by. Also side note on your strawberries they also put off a ton of runners and what we have done is catch them in a small pot and then resell the plants at farmers markets basically getting your plants for free. One plug costs $1 catch 3 runners and sell each plant for $1 you tripled your money.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Definitely!

[@annburge291]

Thought it was really interesting where you started your calculations... I start with water... Can I rely on rainfall... price of earthworks and access, price of tanks, price of ponds. If not sufficient rainfall, price of wells, municipal water, holding pools, irrigation systems.... Then I go to security. What am I protecting and from what. This includes housing, fencing, fire protection, storm protection, animal enclosures, feed storage... Then I consider available materials to modify all the above and improve the soil... Finally I get around to plants. Often I don't have much say because of family politics. Most ends up grown from seeds and branch cuttings. Nursery plants often fail within two weeks here.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is a very interesting perspective indeed. It makes me thankful for my fortunes here. We may have a short growing season, but the trade off is great rain.

[@1985wvufan]

I am starting, late spring this year, I am 64 years old. I have one acre, almost exactly. I am starting with a densely forested hardwood acre. I live on merger retirement but I can find a few extra $ to plant a few guilds. I have taken some wild blackberry cuttings and started them and thinned the trees to plant some fruit trees this fall.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Good luck!

[@Xainfinen]

I'm curious on how guilds setup change in tropical climate. I'll do some reading on that this week!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It should be the same general ideas, just different plants filling each role.

[@Bluebox042]

The food being less nutritious is at least in part due to the increase of CO2 in our atmosphere, it boosts the sugar (and therefore cellulose and starch) production and as a result nutrients make up a smaller percentage of the crop.

[@googalaccowntihasit8036]

Whenever I see that linden tree guild on the channel, this time at 08:08, I wonder: what is the precise story behind that? Knowing that tilia is almost priceless for the bees, it's also gonna have a very large canopy in the not-so-distant future, so what bushes can then possibly thrive below?

[@MartinaSchoppe]

you can keep it small by pruning, use the prunings for mulch and the leaves for food.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

My entire food forest changes over time. I'm fully aware of the fact that as time goes by, some shade will be created and the food forest edge expands, and stuff in the middle will get shaded out. Bushes can be transplanted, and cuttings propagated towards the expanding edge. Nothing about a food forest is static.

[@charlesdevier8203]

Rhubarb, honeyberry, gooseberry, raspberry. I am also trying "boysenberry".

[@Mikhail-Caveman]

Theres a lot of good info and inspiration in here!

[@nmnate]

So, our fruit trees are maybe ~$25-30 a piece when you factor in shipping (bare root). I have 18 trees in so far and probably as many fruiting shrubs which can be just as expensive. Now that I have all the genetic material, propagation is really pretty easy via cuttings or grafting onto seedling rootstocks. I've spent wayyyy more money on native plants in my yard as I'm trying to have a decent amount of diversity. Once those are established, you have those plants basically forever with no work (and free seedlings or root suckers indefinitely). I'm not in an area that has chipdrop, so mulch can be incredibly expensive if you don't know where to look. A ~15 cubic yard delivery from a tree service (with a 1 year waiting list, sometimes longer) will run $100. If you had to buy that from a landscape yard, it's more like $600. Compost is even more expensive. I don't mind buying woodchips as it's incredibly useful for retaining moisture here where it's fairly arid. If thick enough, it does a pretty good job of keeping weeds at bay.

[@chadgillespie4066]

Where do you get you cold hardy trees from? Or your suggested fruit tree/bush nurseries. I live in Zone 4 in Minnesota. Preferably a place that ships would be nice to know.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

In the states, try Edible Acres as your top priority. If they don't have what you want, check out Raintree.

[@georgemartens9777]

Very helpful info! Thanks

[@trumpetingangel]

Grow purple potatoes, and sweet potatoes. More than calories: full of nutrients.

[@magdalena-ug2sl]

My grandpa own's a small organic grocery store, the food is al grown with the environment and soil in mind. The taste of the fruits and veggies compared to the regular grocery store is incredible. It even applied to other foods like eggs, I hate eggs from the store they are gross and I won't eat them, but the eggs from my grandpa's store are delicious!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

For sure. Eggs and meat are SO different tasting, and it's no wonder when you realize how the storebought eggs and meat are produced. Pretty gross to be honest. A chicken should be eating bugs and worms for a really wide nutrient pallet which then gets transferred into the eggs and meat. Animals held in cages and force-fed nothing but empty calories of corn - that's not how you make tasty food.

[@mathidicusalbrighticus]

Probably your best video

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks! People keep saying that after every single video, so maybe I'm getting better at this lol

[@BD-io6eq]

Woodchips are good to get the ground started, but what do you do in the future around the areas filled in with ground cover, like the strawberry area? Do you just let it go and come back, say 5 years later and dig some of the plants up and reapply woodchips in those areas? Are the areas good to go once established and filled in with plants (due to different nutrient accumulators, the plants themselves shedding leaves and decomposing, animal droppings, fungal networks, sprinkling on compost, etc)?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

No need. The strawberries basically die back each winter and you can add chips right on top. The strawberries will send up new growth in the spring and has no problem pushing up through new woodchips, as long as they aren't like a foot thick.

[@biendarra1]

Your video is super cool, since 10 years I looking how to make a food garden, but I’m not find any real information like here, I always think it needs much money to create food for it, but when I see your cost for call Layers and plants , I must say here in Switzerland for one person I pay every month about C$200 for Bio food vegetables fruits and mushrooms, in one year it is 2400 in Canadian dollars or in your calculation 222 Square meter foodgarden, which I can have fthis money only for one person If your calculation is right, what I Will prove, than I only need the money for fruits and vegetables i need for one year to get a full sustainable food garden for my life , it may be wonderful, thank you very much for this information and be blessed

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Joseph! Keep in mind that all the numbers in this video are going to be very location-dependant. I've been told from some people that they pay 2x as much for trees, and others who can get them for half the cost. Even in my location, since this video (about 1 year), prices have risen by at least 50%, maybe more.

[@biendarra1]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thank You for your answer, what is your name I not know it, ? It doesn’t matter,it’s always cheap for me here in Switzerland and it’s very quickly How you develop your garden

[@fluffow2675]

Question. Will you in the future replace your strawberries every third year? What do you do when the old planes stop giving fruit but still are green.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

That's a good question and I'm still learning. One thing I can tell you that I learned this year is that although I thinned a ton, I didn't do nearly enough. I feel like you want to remove a good 40-60% of a patch. Serious thinning.

[@bethberry320]

Thank you so so much for this!!!!

[@jodrei7643]

It seems that plants are more expensive in America? I bought for 2.5€ up to 12€ per bush ( avg. 5 € per bush) and 3€ for 12 strawberry plants. On sale it's even cheaper. Decent quality trees are more around 20€ - 30€, larger ones 40€, small bare rout once in some big box store for even 5€. I'm from Germany.

[@joshgillming6387]

Great episode!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks Ephraim :)

[@jamesfrederick.]

Have you considered growing rare plants like a rare fig varieties like bordissot grise or black Madeira and you can sell the rooted out cuttings for hundreds

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It's a good idea. So far I've been focused on expanding with reliable plants, but over the years I can see myself trying something like that.

[@nmnate]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Unfortunately, most of the super expensive fig varieties ($30+ cuttings and up) aren't going to have very hardy root systems or be able to fruit quickly for a short season length. For those in California, investing in one cutting would pay for itself by year 2 and be potentially quite lucrative by year 3. There's quite a bit of insanity surrounding "rare" varieties...and perhaps too much hype for me.

[@DeesNutzandBerries]

The cost is part of the reason I'm starting to propagate these plants. Growing from seed as a rule of thumb will differ from the parent plant. Just as our kids differ from us. But I have started around 100 pawpaws using cultivated variety seeds with the hope that this will increase my chances of better results. Cloning through cuttings or airlayering. Will result in identical plant to parent plants. I can buy 10 different varieties of elderberry for 1.50-2.00 each in February. Goji, currants, williows and much more all grow easily from cuttings. I will be learning grafting this next winter. Once you have established plants, you can sell plants as another income. Keep in mind, you should be aware of any rights of people that develop new varieties. After all they put years of time, research and knowledge into development. Seedlings to the best of my knowledge would not be included as they differ genetically from the parents.

[@DeesNutzandBerries]

I meant to say that you should research named varieties to see if any patents are on that variety so you don't infringe on it if reselling plants. Then not sell if patented. Im fairly sure you can propagate for your own use in your own yard without infringement.

[@charlesdevier8203]

@@DeesNutzandBerries This is exactly what I am starting to do. I already have have about 50 fruit trees growing and 30+ fruiting bushes interspaced between the trees. Now, I tend to keep cuttings as I prune and pot up the cuttings. My potted cuttings have had a low survival rate, but it is free and every tree I have grown is free. I plan to do some airlayering next summer.

[@DeesNutzandBerries]

@@charlesdevier8203 Wow! The number of variety is impressive! Keep trying for different seasons. I had a 97% success rate this year starting February. I tried during a different season last year and did not have much success. Other than the season, (if you took the cuttings yourself), check to see if hardwood vs softwood cuttings and if they need rooting hormone or not (can try honey, willow or powdered Aspin for the hormone). I'm loving all the learning and hope you are too! All just thoughts to help. Best of Luck!

[@christinescharphorn5968]

Also, peaches are less work to harvest! You always want to put in less work as the forest matures.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Definitely true

[@gardenweedsgrower]

I’m planting seeds. Yeah it will cost to have an Insta-garden but free seeds from produce and some time is always best in my opinion.

[@maggieborjanovic]

Thank you so much. I want to start. We have squirrels and mice of course. How do you protect your fruit trees?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Squirrels and mice won't bother trees too much. A little digging/tunnels, but they aren't too bad. Rabbits and deer are the main concerns. As long as you put trunk protectors on them they should be fine from rabbits. The trunk protectors should go up as high as your largest snow accumulation plus 2 feet. For me that's pretty 6 feet or so. The biggest mistake people make is to put a 2 foot tall protector on the tree, then get a 3 foot snow and the rabbits will girdle the tree 5 feet up. For deer, I have videos on my setup. Just search the channel for "deer" to find them. They are trickier. Having a dog outside a lot helps more than anything else.

[@fkeeleung]

I would recommend anyone who is wanting to set up a fruit forest to learn how to graft fruit trees and learn about rootstocks. You can basically buy rootstocks for $2 and a scion for another $2 or get them from scion shares. Basically you can create a fruit tree for under $5. Then learn how to multiply rootstocks and harvest scion wood.. Super easy.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

You can also do this in an apartment. This is definitely a skill you can develop way before you start your food forest.

[@williamgair3230]

LOL "Good Neighbor" When I purchased my home the front and back yards were a MESS not just weeds but junk. I felt bad for the neighbors. But of course humans like something to "divert their anger" to complain about. To my frustration they continued to be angry even after I got rid of the junk, nursed the fantastic Sycamore, propagated the Day Lilly/Iris hedge and then went ballistic when I killed the "weed lawn" and mulched it all with wood chips :) Not very traditional am I LOL. But now 10 years later they are fascinated and love it. They stop by constantly to ask what is what and what is coming next.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Amazing!

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

Because I am a man of little money, I am starting most trees from seed. My reasoning is: A tree cost $40 $40 will get me 10 packets of seed One packet of seed contains 20 seeds and with probably get me 10 trees I might be able to buy two trees pre year and have production 3 years after I start In 10 years, buying trees, I could have 12 producing trees and 8 young trees (20 in all) at a cost of $800 In ten years, with seed, I could have 400 producing trees at one 20th the cost!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

This is exactly why a video like this is so hard to do. Every single person can make a choice regarding the trade-off of time and money, and optimize it for where they are in life. Someone who got into land while young can save tremendous money making their food forest. Even if you don't take it all the way to seed (for example if you were concerned about getting great genetics in a small space), then you can still buy 1 year old grafted whips for one tenth the cost of a full size tree. When there is a swing of 1000% in prices between options you can do, you can see why doing a video about "cost" is so hard!

[@zesky6654]

Turning a seed into a tree is a lot of work and takes a lot longer than just buying a tree that's more mature and resilient.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

@@zesky6654 the resilient part I will have to disagree with. As for time and work, it's either DIY or pay someone else to take the time and energy. There is no such thing as a shortcut.

[@kevin.malone]

It just comes down to what you value more. Your time or your money. Right now while I’m waiting to find a property to live in, I have time to spare. So I’m growing from seed. Once I have started building the permaculture, I imagine I will be much more willing to part with a few extra dollars so I don’t have to wait 5-10 years for a tree to start producing.

[@ecocentrichomestead6783]

@@kevin.malone that's just it hey? One either has time and no money or money and no time! You build your land according to your personal time:money ratio.

[@lukasondrejka882]

Can I ask about apple variety behind you at 23:00 min ? :) Thank you for the episode.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

My whole neighbourhood used to be a giant farm. The side of my road was an apple orchard 50 years ago. Some of the old apple trees are still here, and this was one of them. It was maybe 30 feet tall when we got here, and I've been top-working it back over the last 5 years. This particular tree is a somewhat tart apple, but I don't know what kind it is. In my lower area (I call it the old man walking trail area), there are much more apple trees. Some of those are quite good, and some are terrible. On the bad ones I've been practicing grafting - specifically late season holding apples for February food for the deer, so they don't come eat my baby trees.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

And what's still not factored in regarding prices of fruit/veg you buy at the store are the hidden costs (subsidies, or costs that only become apparent later, like destroyed ecosystems etc.). Bought food is way more expensive in all kinds of ways that are not yet made "visible" in the price tag. And: food security... You might not be able to grow all "the calories" that you need, but the human body is also pretty good at storing those. If push comes to shove, a food forest will get you pretty far, I guess, especially if you choose to add staples like potatos.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, that's also a reason why I love Jerusalem Artichokes so much, if yoy have room for them. If push comes to shove and society collapsed, I would have my calorie needs taken care of in perpetuity, without even having to do anything. Those things just produce so much, and store so well, and I never have to plant them again. They just keep coming back.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy ​ yes, I didn't mention those (and others like yams, yacon, etc. because (first, I have no expirience with them, yet)) you have talked about them in other videos already, right? And probably everybody might have a more or less wrinkled, not appatizing looking potato in the kitchen - plant it. Let it "foto copy itself, plant out those copies. Can be done in one growing season. JChokes might take a bit longer to establish, probably, but the bonus to them is: the zombies don't know, they are edible :D

[@VanillaAttila]

For ambitious individuals who want to save even more money: Contact local wholesale nurseries for availability list in the fall for the following spring. It helps tremendously if you do it from a business email account so you have some instant credibility. They typically sell bareroot trees in bundles of 5. So connect with friends / family / neighbours so you can split the bundles. Your price this way will be closer to $12-15 per tree opposed to the retail $45-75 at the nursery. I've gotten cider apple trees for as low as 7.2 each! I've done this 2 years in a row now! You can also pot some extras up and sell them for triple to subsidize some cost if you have spare pots and soil.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Great comment 👍

[@VanillaAttila]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thanks glad I can help contribute to the amazing content you've been blasting out this year :)

[@felipefigueroa9449]

My compliment

[@awakenacres]

I think that weird chipmunk is a tree frog. Someone tell me if I’m wrong.🐸

[@ClanEATCastingCrew]

So I'm in year 1 of my food forest and I have already recouped all of my costs, which were not insignificant. Is this normal?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It all depends what was planted, but I would say that's very good. Definitely pushing the high end of the bell curve I think.

[@ClanEATCastingCrew]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I started with a fig tree my father had had for 25 years and then started selling cuttings on figbid are you familiar with them?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I've never heard of that, no. Thanks for the info. People sure do love their figs! I can't believe how much some of those are selling for.

[@ClanEATCastingCrew]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy some cuttings sell for as much as $600 per cutting. I've seen trees go for a few grand. You can sell nonfig items there too

[@nymbeats]

those last twenty seconds hahaha...good for you. what a happy moment.

[@Diggy77]

Great video, thank you! How many m2 is your garden?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

It's hard to tell because it's spread all over the place. The dedicated annual gardens are roughly 90sqm. The food forests however are roughly 2 acres.

[@Diggy77]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy How big of a garden/forrest would you recommend for a familly of 4 to produce its own food (not for sale)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

20 foot by 10 foot garden for veggies is plenty. 3-4 fruit trees is plenty. You can go more if you have more room. If you can get chickens, roughly 3 chickens for 2 people is a good ballpark.

[@daltondammthebabe]

you said strawberries would drain your soil. i thought you said that plants dont take nutrients from the soil they get them from the sun. what did i miss out on?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I describe it in detail in many videos, but the gist is that plants get nutrients from the sun to create exudates which attract microbiology that makes the nutrient in the soil available. It's not so much that plants drain soils, but that microbiology will. However most soils have more than enough, what they lack is microbiology, because they lack plant populations to support them with root exudates created from photosynthesis. However, over the long haul, you need certain nutrients to be returned to the soil, especially when some plants are heavy feeders (create many exudates). Strawberries are one of them. So it's always good to grow in polycultures, and especially include nitrogen fixers who will pull nitrogen out of the air and put it in the ground again (via nitrifying bacteria symbiosis).

[@CajunGreenMan]

So what do you think about those brix refractometers used to measure nutrient density? Is there a better way to measure the nutrient density you mention here?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Brix is good. I think the sap analysis stuff that John Kempf does is fantastic.

[@CajunGreenMan]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy do you know what his formal education is please? I've gogled and can't find it. Thanks!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I'm honestly not sure. I tried looking it up, but couldn't find it.

[@southsidecarly7427]

I have a question for you… I started growing raspberries, now I have them popping up all over. Can I dig those up and put them in a more manageable situation all together? Thanks for the video

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Absolutely. Can also sell the dug up plants and make some side money with.

[@dominiquedeveaux361]

Hi Keith, At 19:15, it says that one could get something like $4-8k per acre for large scale planting. Could this amount be increased if one were to work full-time on the forest? For example, if I had 2 acres of fully setup food forest and I worked full-time on it, how much income do you think I could reasonably get per year selling the food? Thanks!

[@dominiquedeveaux361]

And thanks for the awesome video :)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately I've never actually done it, so I'm hesitant to give any more resolution ajd detail on those numbers, because I would just be guessing. That range is about as good of a guess as I can give you, but maybe someone actually doing a large scale commercial business food forest can give a better one. Maybe someone like Stephan Sobkowiak.

[@dominiquedeveaux361]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Ok great thanks!

[@patmurphy8774]

A little off subject but concerning wood chips. I put cardboard over grass and wood chipped it heavily. This will kill the grass but does it also kill the microbiology that was existing with the grass? I know to get more roots in the ground but that will take time. Will I be starting over with building micro biology or will the organisms survive when the grass dies. Thanks, great video.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

No the microbiology will eat the grass roots as they decompose. By the time that food source is depleted, the cardboard will be broken down, and hopefully some new plants are up and running.

[@growshakephil]

I’m throughly confused, but at least the food forest looks nice! ;)

[@magdalena-ug2sl]

Where I live property is really expensive, about 7 to 17 Euro's.

[@rockskipper0]

I have probably close to 2k in my food forest right now .. I have 2 acres and over 100 varieties of fruit ... for forest save u money because u don't have to mow your yard every week

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

100%

[@joshuavazquez5534]

What are some drought tolerant ground covers you recommend for zone 6?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I actually don't have a long list to help give you, because I focus so heavily on clover for mine, due to how many functions it serves. It's definitely drought tolerant though, so I would say that's my number 1 for sure. When we don't get any rain and everything else dies, my clover is the last to dry up, and once we get a rainfall it all bounces back - whereas some grasses won't. I also think nasturtium would be a great choice. Creeping thyme is another great one, and a good pollinator attractor.

[@joshuavazquez5534]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I appreciate your feedback and your informational videos. Thanks!

[@Growinginontario]

I think the investment in the health that the organic foods provide give huge dividends which are immeasurable

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Well said!

[@natalielevac8010]

Where do you buy your peach trees? What variety are they? I live in Eastern Ontario.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I buy from many local nurseries. I try not to give that info out so as to keep some privacy. I have Reliance, contender, frost and red star. All great peaches. I have a few others I'm trying but haven't had fruit on them yet, so I don't know how good they are.

[@natalielevac8010]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thank you! And what about the mushrooms? I was looking to order some spawn but the shipping was too expensive.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, I got those from a place that is now out of business :( Fungi dot com is probably the best place (Paul Stamets is one of the world experts, and that's his place), but its very expensive shipping over the border.

[@natalielevac8010]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Thank you! I enjoy watching your videos and my backyard is evolving every year. Thank you for the great content :)

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Thanks! And good luck 👍

[@Lochness19]

How many fully planted acres do you think could be maintained by one person full time in good health? Do you have any other expenses? I guess you don't really have raised beds, or much indoor seed starting for annual vegetables, etc... which can have some extra expenses associated. All your soil conditioning is free, no fertilizer or pesticides? So just gardening equipment like pruning shears, shovels, etc? It seems you don't bother with fencing to keep animals out? Maybe one or two minor things like grafting tape or a soil/compost thermometer? Soil tests? You don't seem to have much trellises either. I suppose many of these expenses (trellises, seed starting soil, etc) are for annual vegetables, which can still have a good short term ROI. The fruit trees can have better ROI long term, the only thing is you might have a bit of a hard time getting all your produce out to market before it spoils if it's just small quantities? Like I'm not sure how many grocery stores will bother with a bushel of pears, but if you just put things up for sale on your driveway and you live on a side street I'm not sure how many people will notice and buy them. So you'd need a stand at a farmer's market or some way to sell them online or to your social network?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I would say 2 to 4 acres, depending on how organized it is. I have almost zero costs, just the odd tree I add. I harvest my own water (diverted rainwater into the pond), I use no fertilizers or anything at all. I get free woodchips from the municipality. I make my own compost and biochar. My chickens cost money in feed, but save me more in eggs than they cost, so I don't consider that a cost.

[@br2965]

Can you do a video about starting a live stock farm from scratch in Ontario Please.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately I've never done that before, so I can't make a video on it. I would be guessing, and I never do that.

[@cr-dv3or]

I am in Durham Region Ontario and would like to know where you buy your fruit trees. Thanks

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Unfortunately I cannot give that info out to everyone because the nurseries go out of stock so quickly. I save that information as a perk for joining the membership program next to the subscribe button. If I told everyone that info, then my members would never get any trees. Those places already sell out by April/May each year. I'm really sorry, I used to just tell anyone when this was smaller, but most of my subscribers are local, and if I told 30,000 people where we buy from, then we'd never be able to get any trees. I don't like having to save that info as a perk to members, but it's the only way to be fair to the members.

[@ramamalhotra7836]

Which part of canada is this ? I am interested in it

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Southern Ontario, between Toronto and Ottawa.

[@Louis.slmn93]

If you know how to grow from seeds / cuttings and graft , it cost close to nothing , in fact i usually buy a bunch of seeds , keep a few seedlings for me and sell the rest so i own more money than i spend , in winter i sell a lot of bare root fruit trees i grew for one or 2 years and with the money i can get more interesting or rare stuff , in the end the only cost is my time .

[@Thrash230723]

Don’t strawberries only produce for a handful of years?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Each individual plant does, but each year every plant runners like 6 times to make a bunch of new plants.

[@Thrash230723]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy I’m thinking of planting two apple trees in my front yard and then strawberries underneath that.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Sounds good. Yeah, so just focus on letting them spread for a few years, and after that, try to remove about 1/4 of the patch each year, removing the oldest plants.

[@Thrash230723]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it!

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

I'm glad to help out. Getting people going is why I started this channel!

[@Stezosledec559]

Location is everything. Better siol, rain, sun…..faster return.

[@gregryma]

Yes, food from the store is so nutrition deprived and makes people overweight and hungry on the full stomach. 🤔

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Exactly. It has nothing in it!

[@yerneedsry]

love your channel new here.

[@ramthian]

I a gree with you too!.👍👍👍

[@susanquinlan7426]

I am watching your videos with many questions. However, I live in northern Arizona. Semi Arid. Could you give me some referrals or reading material. I will never have the lush green you have yet many of the principals are the same. You teach well. Thanks.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, you nailed it. Even though our climates are different, many core principles will be the same. Getting shade established early will be a big priority for you, so any nitrogen fixing quick growing trees would be an ideal start- at least that's what I would think. I don't really have any resources to give you because I I read dry arid stuff, since it's not applicable to me maybe some other kind folks reading this can help?

[@christinescharphorn5968]

I would advise looking up some of David the Good's KZbin videos/books. He gardens in Florida sand. Geoff Lawton also has done some great work in very arid climates and has a lot of content on KZbin as well.

[@nmnate]

If you're in a semi arid area, you'd be surprised at how much density you can get just by following the general principles. I've been mixing in a lot more native plants that are naturally low water usage and that helps fill in a lot of the open space while adding sun / wind protection. You'll definitely need drip irrigation for most common fruit trees and shrubs, and lots of mulch which can be either hard to find or expensive. We're semi-arid here (z6b northern New Mexico) with maybe 12-14" of rain. Rainwater collection is also important to help limit your use of tapwater.

[@Lauradicus]

Oops. Don’t forget pollinators! A lot of the trees you might be planting will not be self pollinating so it may require 2 or 3 x “$195 for 200 sq feet”.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yes for sure, each of those is a unit cell. However if you need 3 trees for pollination then you would need 3 of those unit cells. Now for plants which have "duds" as the pollinators, such as seasbuckthorn for example, where the males produce no food, then you would have to modify numbers on yield accordingly, as some of your unit cells would have no production from certain plants. However there's a lot of wiggle room in those numbers, and its impossible to get much more resolution than plus or minus 30-50% or so. There is just tremendous variance on how much this can cost, based on how someone acquires their plants. So having the odd "pollinator only" tree in there shouldn't change the results too too much. It's all ballpark numbers either way.

[@Tsuchimursu]

do I want to grow my own potatoes? heck yes, I got Peruvian true potato seeds so I can get fancy diploid potatoes with rich colour, taste and nutrient density.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Haha awesome!

[@scvzthebull8294]

Who do you sell your plants to? Neighbours?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Yeah, we post on kijiji and sell at end of driveway

[@susana.esteves]

what is the size of your land

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

4 acres. 2 are swamp, about 1.5 acres are planted out. But it is so much more than someone needs. Even 1/4 acre is a ton.

[@TheMcStormy]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy Totally agree with that! I was just curious, thanks for the answer.

[@francoislarin1694]

In what zone are you?

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

4

[@StreetMachine18]

i spent $500 USD this year starting my backyard edible landscape food forest. 6 yards of compost, 5 adolescent trees, 12 seedling trees and bushes. strawberries etc. i wish i spent money on mulch but i cheaped out and the weed pressure is real.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

For anyone else starting... "How to start a backyard orchard the right way. The essential sheet mulching guide." kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHi8aXuCq79jZqc

[@StreetMachine18]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy nice

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

Video Description is too long, I have to finish this in a comment: Regarding calculating ROI... this one is really weird with trees. Most investments you would pay money to get a constant revenue stream. For example $100 to get 10% per year, so the ROI is 10 years (ignoring compounding). Simple. However it gets muddy when the income stream is variable. For example, imagine a similar investment that didn't return 10% per year, but instead returned 0% for 9 years then 200% every year from then on. This investment has the same ROI of 10 years... i.e. it takes you 10 years to get your money back... but after that 10 years you are making 200% every year, not 10% per year. So this is clearly the better investment. This is basically what trees are like. You get nothing until they produce, but then they often pay for themselves in their first big harvest year. For my peaches, I spend $60, and in the last 2 seasons I've probably had 10-20 peaches off them, but this season each tree has put on between 500-1000 peaches. I honestly thought I exaggerated on that (you can see the text-edits in this video), but then I sold my counter full of peaches to a subscriber and counted 213 peaches there. I've pulled easily 10x that many peaches this year and that's all off of 3 trees. So each tree really did produce somewhere around 700+ peaches this season. Crazy! So those peaches sat there doing nothing for 5 years, then had 2 years of trickle income, then BAM, they paid for themselves 10 times over on their "ROI year". In order to get good data for the investment of fruit, you would have to do a much longer study, and one that accounts for standard deviation and small sample size. I.e. you'd have to do it over multiple farms, multiple setups, and over decades. There are studies out there that attempt to do this, but they are always talking about monoculture orchards. And isn't that the point with permaculture? That we can outproduce those saps? Maybe not on ONLY peaches, but on our entire yield. So we get maybe 80% as many peaches and a monoculture orchard, but we then also get strawberries, asparagus, haskaps, raspberries, blueberries, herbs and spices, and all that while our costs are almost zero, whereas they spray and fertilize to keep their systems going? End of the day, I cannot give you super accurate numbers on long term profit for someone who is starting out their own fruit business and deciding between permaculture and orcharding. However, what I can tell you is that I've seen the numbers from those kind of reports, and based on MY EXPERIENCE, I think permaculture is the way to go, and it's not even close. Keep in mind, that the larger you scale this up, the bigger an issue that harvesting is going to be. Permaculture dense polycultures are great for production, but their greatest downside is that harvesting is manual and very time consuming. I also only discussed the food aspect, but didn't talk too much about propagation. I do have propagation videos, but how much money you make doing that is going to vary greatly. However, as a ballpark estimate, I believe you can make roughly $20 per square foot, maybe higher. Again, falling off tremendously as size increases. I'm talking about a backyard grower here. And at some point, as you scale up, you will need to find a market to satisfy that level of supply. And don't ignore the cost of the dirt in the pots that you will sell. When you are selling strawberries for $2 but the dirt costs you $1.50, make sure you account for that! My main point though? Calculating ROI on perennial food (especially for fruit trees) is very strange.

[@CanadianPermacultureLegacy]

@@ediblelandscaping1504 Absolutely. Rooftops are the most underused asset in cities. The biggest barrier there is obvously that most rooftops were engineered to be empty, not filled with dirt and plants and water. So we have these aging buildings, and we want to put weight up there, but the building is barely staying up as it is. A lot of permaculture principles really fall apart in cities. Cities truly are an atrocity. I get why they exist. I get why people live there. But I also believe they are one of the root causes of all the problems we face problems. They also were created on the fertile settlements, because that was the single most important thing for placing a community. Can you grow food and sustain it? The second was trade, which means water was important. So now we're in this predicament where we are paving over our most fertile soils. It's really important that we try to make cities as functional as possible, and get as much food production there as we can. The end goal of sustainable cities may never infact be possible, but at least we can improve what we have now. It definitely all starts on the rooftops.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

regarding the "permaculture OR orcharding" -> check out YT Channel of Stefan Sobkowiak - the permaculture orchard LOADS of information about making an orchard based on permaculture principles. I think his plot is pretty flat, so he doesn't have swales but of course even if you want to plant in rowes you could lay out those rows on contour.

[@MartinaSchoppe]

@@CanadianPermacultureLegacy have you read "RetroSuburbia" by David Holmgren?

[@MsCaterific]

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