DLC Bookclub - HOUSE OF CHAINS - MALAZAN BOOK OF THE FALLEN - Chapters 3 & 4

Jeff and Lana continue their read of the fourth novel in the Tales of the Malazan Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson, entitled House of Chains.
They start off this episode with some NON-Spoiler thoughts about the response to last week's discussion. Specifically, the notion of reading a POV character you don't agree with.
Then, they discuss Chapters 3 and 4, wrapping up the first sub-book, Faces in the Rock
Special thanks to Emily Bachynski for the DLC Bookclub theme song. Find more of her work at www.badbuddy.b...
Link to the reading guide mentioned: docs.google.co....
DLC Bookclub Discord: / discord

[@slidenaway]

Okay SO! God these chapters are packed. And I just wanna say you 2 are like… the platonic ideal of the Malazan audience. These books were written for you!!! As always, love your reactions, humor, insight, analysis… JUST LOVE YOU BOTH I’m glad the Toblakai reveal hit you. It did me too, on first read. As did the Silanda stuff. Which by the way, we’re not done with that story… there’s more to know and you WILL know. Later 😜 The Silanda saga is a perfect microcosm of Malazan as a whole, in terms of the disjointedness and time-jumping, and how rewarding it is when you PAY ATTENTION to the details so that the revelations are… revelatory!! And most importantly - you’ve now finished stage 1 of Karsa’s arc. More to come, obviously, but isn’t this foundation incredible??? The noble savage has some (valid) criticisms of civilization, and learns some lessons from repeated kicks in the teeth by the world at large. Learns what regret is. Realizes the world isn’t entirely suited to his whims, and that the world is huge compared to what he initially thought. Karsa’s journey is one of the high points of the series as a whole ❤

[@Ad4msI]

My excerpt to contribute- “I was thinking a moment ago-that shark, choking on Borrug’s body. I suspect, should Darujhistan ever become part of the Malazan Empire, the empire will be like that shark, and Darujhistan like Borrug. We’ll choke the beast that swallows us.’ ‘The shark did not choke for very long.’ ‘That’s because Borrug was too dead to say anything about it.’ ‘An interesting distinction, Torvald Nom.’ ‘Well of course. Us Daru are a subtle folk.’”

[@nojohns1748]

Yes! we have finally reached ,my favorite chapters of the entire S.E.R.I.E.S.

[@Jabberwhorl_Cronstadt]

Much like Anomander Rake is an atmosphere, Karsa Orlong is a challenge. His POV is a challenge to the reader. His philosophy is a challenge to morality. His culture is a challenge to civilization. His strength is a challenge to anyone in front of him. His very blood is a challenge to magic. His will is a challenge to destiny. Karsa is such a singularly abrasive and aggressive figure that his world had to find a way to deal with him, like he was the proverbial splinter being expelled from the world's thumb. That would certainly be the Karsa way or viewing it, in which he's being judged on a binary as worthy or unworthy. In or out. Strong or weak. Alive or dead. But as so much of Erikson's writing shows us, the world is filled with so much more complexity and richness than the simple binaries we lean on to make a chaotic world more palatable. Opening ourselves to that complexity (or, indeed, the world itself forcing that opening) can help dull some of those sharp edges of a stark worldview, but certainly at a cost. And Karsa is definitely experiencing that cost in these chapters. It can cost your naivete, your innocence, and rock the entire psychological foundation upon which you've built your sense of comfort and safety in the world. It can humiliate and humble you. But it's in that humility (remember, certainty is the enemy!) you can start to piece together a more holistic worldview that makes more room for acceptance and peace, where once there was only room for challenge and combat. But Karsa is also a mirror. A mirror in which we can see the uglier parts of ourselves (sidenote: how about that harsh metaphor of Karsa's new face tattoo?!). The badass barbarian can make us cheer, but true to Erikson's style, this rarely comes without the nagging question of, "But isn't he still, ya know, barbaric?!". Your words on this, Jeff, made me think of the film Funny Games, by Michael Haneke. On the surface it's a home invasion thriller, but towards the end you realize the entire movie is actually intended to be an indictment on the genre and audience. It's saying, "Jeez, you actually LIKE watching this kind of thing? What does that mean?" Maybe there's a little barbarian in all of us...

[@mikeiwo845]

You joke about the reread, but let me assure you it is by far one of the best things you can do. I have actually paused my 6th read of the series waiting for you guys to catch up (I'm currently in the third book of HoC). Next couple of chapters Introduce you to some of my faves. The ride only gets better from here. Sit back, fasten your seatbelt and enjoy the ride.

[@EricMcLuen]

Only two so far. But on the second, I went back to read the prologue of GotM after the last epilogue of CG and it took a lot of willpower to stop.

[@snarfbomber298]

I actually think it’s a mistake for people to take their first reading too seriously. Just skim it and get to the good part.. the reread lol

[@TBaggins96]

Erikson's foresight is unsurpassed. Even if House of Chains isn't one of my favorites, it still blows me away. There's so much at the end of this book I can't wait for you two to reach. By the way, I believe "Tiste" is pronounced similarly to the word "heist," or "feisty." Cheers!

[@slidenaway]

Correct on that pronunciation. I try to take Erikson’s approach to pronunciation and keep it to myself, but Tiste in particular just sounds so much better when you say it right 😁😁

[@burningglass7609]

I hope my comment last week didn't come off as a criticism of the first chapters, it was purely a preference thing. I think they're (as expected) brilliantly written. I ADORE flawed/deeply human characters, but I have always had difficulties with strictly "violent" or "evil" characters as the primary eyes with which I see a story. I do think that the format definitely impacts that, but it's funny, when Jeff was listing films/TV with similarly difficult protagonists (Breaking Bad, Sopranos, Scarface, Wolf of Wallstreet) I realized I have not watched a single one of them. That's the beauty of art in all forms and the beauty of sharing our thoughts and feelings about it! We're all experiencing it through our own unique perspectives.

[@eugenemurphy6037]

[@Unouna10]

That kell hunter badge is so cute. Also i loved these chapters.

[@ryanbatie6790]

My initial extreme reaction to House of Chains a couple of years ago is specific to Malazan - I also generally adore occupying the headspace of reprehensible characters for a lot of the same reasons you two mentioned, but with House of Chains I was worried that Erikson was starting to indulge in a lot of GrimDark “isn’t this twisted? >:]” tendencies that often put me off more nihilist dark fantasy after gracefully avoiding them in the first three books despite some really dark material. I should have trusted him more because I ended up in a really good place with the book but that initial extreme distaste was very specific to this book and not with fiction in general. Thanks again and love the show!

[@Jabberwhorl_Cronstadt]

I NEED A K'ELL HUNTER PATCH NOW. TAKE ALL MY MONEY!

[@charlesdunne7909]

Fiddler was pretending to be a Graal.

[@Latienie_]

Ahhh yes thank you. It felt wrong when I said Kalam.

[@dkmoon7543]

I love the early Karsa stuff in spite of the bad things he does, because I recognize that Karsa isn't dumb and is learning. I love seeing the learning process thru his POV.

[@bdc1909]

Great show as always 😊 I just wanted to say, that I agree with Jeff about this being a fine point of entry to the series. It was in fact my point of entry: I randomly came across HoC at my local library and figured "Giant sinister dog statues, that seems interesting" after seeing the cover. And it doesn't actually say that it's book 4 of a series on the outside. As an avid reader of sci-fi and fantasy I'm pretty used to being thrown in at the deep end, and gaining understanding of the setting as the narrative progresses, so I didn't even realize my folly until I started looking for a sequel 😉 Keep up the good work, you have so many good things ahead of you both in this novel and the rest of the series!

[@Grantimusss]

The first 4 chapters of House of Chains are among my favorite passages that I read this year. Also, nice new logo!

[@josephglaser4081]

Thank you so much for the non spoiler topic! I feel seen! lol. A few thoughts. 1) Even though I had a negative experience with book 1 I don't want to yuck anyone's yum so if you liked it I am sincerly happy for you. I love it when people are brought joy. 2) I never felt like Erickson was condoning Karsa's behavior. The previous three novels were more than enough evidence for that. Also, just because I don't like Karsa at all I don't look at that as a reflection of artistry or skill. I know Erickson is very talented. 3) I found your explanation of how you were able to enjoy Karsa interesting. All the media you mentioned i.e. Wolf of Wallstreet etc... I had the same reaction to as I did with Karsa. When I consume media I have an experience of spending time with and forging friendships with the characters. When it comes to characters like Karsa it simply comes down to I don't want to spend time with or be friends with these kinds of people. Maybe this is ignorant, but I feel like I have nothing to gain from spending time with them. I thought it was really interesting that Lana specifically used the word gain when discussing how she found value in these chapters. Real life is tragic enough. Why spend time with the kinds of people that make it that way? 4) I understand the idea of being able to separate yourself from characters like this. How I relate to this is violence in videogames. I am a pacifist IRL but I can find games like Mortal Kombat entertaining with their over the top violence because I know it isn't real. For whatever reason I don't experience this same disconnect with characters. 5) I am happy to report that chapter 5 is way more my speed :) Hope this sheds some light on my perspective.

[@SouravUldyssian]

An amazing episode. I was waiting for this a long time. Loved the discussion. The reveal of Karsa is amazingly done. Let's see how you like the rest of the book.

[@salvosscullstreet267]

"These Visceral Joys" would be a great book title

[@bookswithbanks8943]

I continue to love your journey as you both get deeper in. I just finished a reread of House of Chains, so I can't wait to see what you all have to say going forward. Enjoy.

[@petervandeweyer517]

I did love Karsa's chapters. No problem with them. I read it as as sort of black and white sword and sorcery adventure that gradually moved into a something more nuanced and in line with the previous three books. But I have in the past stopped books and series because I disliked the main character. (Mark Lawrence first series for example. ) Another recent example is suneater. I read the first 2 books. I think they are halfway decent but among the things I don't like is the main and only viewpoint character. (I might continue but only when I'm in the mood for a character like this)

[@chrishamby86]

I haven't had a chance to read with this book club but I do watch the start of every video because the song and dancing just makes me smile

[@CannataJeff]

Yay! We welcome that, too! Just let us be your weekly dance break. :)

[@chrishamby86]

@@CannataJeff seriously amazing stuff. Been a follower and fan since the early TRS days!

[@quinnloucks2869]

I can’t believe you guys said you didn’t see the reveal coming that he was Shaik’s bodyguard because last episode Jeff said wasn’t Teblur the name of Shaik’s body guard. I thought oh man Jeff was right!

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

My most anticipated episode yet

[@claytonhomer3096]

i have found that I enjoy stories about the darker people more than anything else. My favorite shows and books are almost always about those types: Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, The Soprano's, The Wire, for books stuff like Malazan, The First Law or Dandelion Dynasty. Moral complexity is fascinating to me. One of the problems with current day society is the inability to have respect or empathy for someone who feels differently. Or in Karsa's case, someone who's culture held different values. He is a product of his environment, not a "villain." This is a problem on both the left and the right of the political spectrum. You don't learn anything from people who think exactly like you do. You don't grow. It's why the term "echo chamber" is a pejorative. Being inside the head of people who think differently gives you an alternative perspective. That might not change your mind, but it will expand it. If I were to recommend Malazan to someone not sure if they could handle it the question I would ask would be: Do you struggle with cultural relativism? If you do the series most definitely will be tough for you.

[@danielgwynne7266]

I would suggest the second apocalypse to you

[@claytonhomer3096]

I own all Bakkers books. I am in the middle of some series I want to finish first. Like Malzan I know that dense. I read the first 20ish pages of The Darkness that comes before and freaking loved his writing.

[@feral7523]

Anyone else notice Karsa stomping on a certain statue in Silver Lake during the raid? lovely foreshadowing

[@dreddiknight]

Damn, I'm having to catch up with you after being in sync for MOI... Still lovely though ❤️

[@EricMcLuen]

Reqding is a lot more visceral that visual as the writer leaves it up to the readers imagination to fill in the blanks. It really is satisfying when you pick up on all the call backs from books ago. And Karsa is probably the only character to have two entries in the dramatis personae.

[@slidenaway]

Oh man I love your callout in the non spoiler section. A lot of people really do have these issues with Karsa, especially here at the beginning, and I guess maybe all those people can’t root for Tony Soprano or Walter White, but I’d bet plenty of them do. Hypocrites 😒 But then you both make a good point about the medium difference, maybe it’s the book and Erikson’s style as opposed to any film or TV. Hmmmmmm

[@stevec73]

I'd never appreciated the way Silgar keeps popping up as playing with the trope of a cartoonish villain. In my reads of the book, I always kind of rolled my eyes "this guy again?!"

[@feral7523]

Book 9 Capt Kindly + Pores is just hilarious. I also totally enjoyed the opening Karsa plotline in this book and the reveal was epic.

[@slidenaway]

Book 9? What are you talking about

[@danielgwynne7266]

Um spoilers

[@feral7523]

Lana you were so close, yes you've heard of the guy called the Keeper! only under a different name and you've met his brother- another blue skinned ship captain presumed drowned also....

[@AndreiMihai-yt4xg]

Why are you putting this stuff 😂

[@Tremain]

The Toblakai reveal got me too. PS Silgar's death does not even make the "top 10 most brutal Karsa Orlong kills" list.

[@slidenaway]

What are you talking about, Silgar isn’t dead

[@KarelOrlong]

I think the only medium that has a chance to get you more into the head space of the protagonist would be gaming, since you're physically controlling the actions of the character.

[@slidenaway]

First again?? Man I have no life