Carbon Steel vs Stainless Steel: Chinese Slicing Cleaver

[@Stratos.2]

Great videos. You actually know what you're talking about, unlike many others who put out videos on this topic.

[@rickschrager]

One downside to carbon steel (my preference) that is rarely mentioned is that it can impart an unpleased flavor to some foods. It can also cause oxidation to lighter greens (lettuce, cabbage,...).

[@thiago.assumpcao]

I have that issue but only if the side of the carbon blade is exposed. One of my blades the side is covered in a protective polymer and I dont notice a taste change. Mine is a cheap version but I expect same results with sanmai.

[@Cryslr3Hun]

Hello, new sub here just happen to run across your page and find it very informative. Do you have a video out or can you talk about how and what you use to sharpen your tools to get that nice sharp edge

[@Laszlomtl]

What brand and model was your stanley steel cleaver in your demonstration? Thanks.

[@thiago.assumpcao]

I agree with many things you said, on low end knives carbon steel tends to have longer edge retention and its easier to sharpen. That is a limitation of many cheap stainless steel but not a limitation of stainless by itself. My knives on Din 1.1416 and 10Cr15MoV can easily sharpen enough to shave but its really hard to get my cheap 1070 carbon steel knives to that level of sharpness, took me many attempts to learn how to do it. Also the edge retention on the 10Cr15MoV is much better than my cheap carbon knifes. That is an issue with the quality of my carbon blades not carbon steel in general. I'm not a professional but I read about metallurgy. Since you love knives maybe you would be interested on the topic Steel is made of a multi crystalline structure. The main limitation for how sharp a knife can get is the size of the crystalline steel structure. The crystals drop off the blade as a whole so if they are big the edge will never get scary sharp. Both, stainless and carbon steel can have a very fine microcrystalline structure, that depends on the quality of the heat treatment. If quality control is bad the crystals fuse and grow so the blade doesn't sharpen easily. Correct heat treatment protocols for stainless are much more rigid than carbon so if quality control is bad it will suffer much more. Edge retention is affected by hardness, toughness, sharpening angle, carbide content, carbide type and corrosion resistance. Different knife usage cause dulling by different mechanisms and durability will vary according to method used to compare. Under normal usage the most impactful by far is hardness. As long as its correctly heat treated, not making the steel brittle, the higher hardness blade will have better edge retention regardless if its carbon or stainless. For same hardness and toughness carbon steel may loose edge faster due to corrosion but hardness usually is more important.

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

Thanks for the Info. corrosion affecting edge retention does not seem to get talked about a lot but I have also noticed it.

[@thiago.assumpcao]

​@@cookingwithcleavers6842 I know that's a possibility but didn't notice it in practice. The edge rolled before I could see any corrosion wearing. That blade was pretty soft, around 49 HRC, so edge loss by rolling was expected. My other carbon blade is about 56 HRC but haven't used it much. I think maybe on a higher hardness blade, and much better edge retention, corrosion could have a small impact. It's hard to know what is causing edge loss because sometimes edge rolling is microscopic and you could blame it on corrosion. In my case it was a very visible roll so no doubt. After hardness the second in importance is toughness. It doesn't need to be very high for non impact kitchen knives but if it's too low the edge wears by chipping instead of rolling. When heat treating a blade the higher the hardness the lower the toughness so bad heat treament can leave a good steel brittle. There is a different sweet spot for each steel type. You can't get Din 1.1416 steel to 63 HRC because the edge will chip. On the other hand for kitchen knives on 14C28N the target is 62-63 HRC and if they make the blade on 56 HRC you already know its not optimized and will behave closer to a well treated german steel than to an optimum 14C28N blade.

[@Cryslr3Hun]

thank you for sharing some of that metallurgy knowlege of yours. I love listening to somebody who has passion in any kind of trade or skill, that being said can you kindly talk a little about how and what you use and prefer to sharpen these tools with.

[@thiago.assumpcao]

@@Cryslr3Hun I have a yt channel about knives and sharpening. Most of the content is on Portuguese, you may try yt auto translate but probably not the best experience. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z6LPenuha62WiZY I have a few videos on the English channel but not much kzbin.info/door/5w_rJfnodjDk6WOi3ML7cg There are many different equipment to sharpen, each one with their advantages and drawbacks . Honing rods get fast results but create metal fatigue and fracture carbides. If you use it correctly initial edge is good but edge durability is still lower than stone. Diamond plates and resin bonded diamond stones also tend to fracture carbides. It may affect edge durability or even initial sharpness. Natural Corundum stones tends to round abrasive and have bad performance. Strops are cheap can have great results but require you to do a very good job on the stone first and only a few passes on strop, usually about 3 passes or per side. If you use strop too much they create foil burr and loose edge durability. There are other methods to clean foil burr like raw leather or hanging denim but few people know about foil burr and make a mess using strops. Another issue with strops is that people tend use Chromium oxide or sub micron diamond and resulting edge is too polished loosing cutting aggression. Some materials benefit from polished edge like raw meat and wood but you loose performance on other things like vegetables. Rope cutting and barbecue on polished edge is specially bad. My preferred equipment is synthetic stones made of Silicon Carbide or Aluminum oxide because of great edge durability and slicing agression. For general purpose knives I finish with 1000- 3000 grit stone. Dedicated knives I may finish on 300 or polish the edge with 12,000. You need water on top of stones as lubricant for better results. If water stays on top without a bath they are splash and go. Some stones need a single bath and retain enough water to be used as splash and go for months after the first use. Some stones always require baths, others don't take it well and may crack. As long as water stays on top you are good to go, avoid unnecessary baths. Stones also require flattening. As long as no light passes under a ruler its flat enough to achieve shaving sharp. If light passes under it requires flattening. I use stone on stone method but it requires practice. Silicon carbide powder on top of glass is cheap and easy. I sharpen both ways (edge leading and trailing ) while forming the apex. No burr method is faster but its much harder to get good results. For most people I recommend burr method. Once the burr is fully formed on one side you can flip to the other side. Remove the burr edge leading on stone with light pressure, about weight of the knife, alternating strokes until the edge doesn't catch fibers of a cotton cloth. Lighter passes with less than weight of the blade may help, specially on coarse stones. Most kitchen knives can handle a 10 degree sharpening if you finish with 15 degree microbevel. Just a few alternating passes on 15 degrees is enough to hold the edge even on soft steel like 56 HRC knife. This is some basic fast sharpening and good results with 20-40 min . If you want better results you may go even lower and to a 5 degree before the 10. That takes a lot longer and may require a several hours depending on the steel and knife geometry but resulting geometry is much better. Significant improvement on cutting capacity for hard vegetables like carrot and onion. I usually to this 5 10 15 method. This geometry with and egde sharp enough to cut paper towel gets great results. If you know how to clean burr even 300 grit stone can cut paper towel and get good results. Full Flat V zero straight to a 20 degree microbevel is also quite good but takes too much time on stone. Usually several days. I never did this on the entire blade, did it once on the tip of a soft knife.

[@thiago.assumpcao]

@@Cryslr3Hun English source for learning about steels I recommend "Knife Steels Nerds" and about Sharpening the site "Science of Sharp."

[@PlebiasFate1609]

question here is it possible to create/ force a "seasoning" layer on the carbon steel by applying vinegar on it?

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

Yes it is, you can even do patterning using mustard and put the blade in warm vinegar.

[@PlebiasFate1609]

@@cookingwithcleavers6842 that pattern is basically the rust resistance right?

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

@@PlebiasFate1609 yes, the patina is a rust prevention layer, you still have to take care of the blade though, keep it dry and oil it occasionally

[@robohippy]

Most of my sharpening experience is with wood lathe tools. The great debate goes on and on about which metals can be sharpened to the keenest edge. Consensus seems to be that you can get the same sharpness on just about any metal. The difference is that some metals and metal variations are easier to get really sharp than others.

[@erickzhou5314]

Wow seeing your channel for the fist time! Loving it! Now, I really want a Chinese cleaver... What do you recommend to buying(brand, company, blacksmith...)? Both stainless and carbon. I have experience with japanese handmade knives

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

carbon steel is generally more fun. I generally recommend the CCK 1301 or its small version the CCK 1302 and 1303. look for thin and lite (less than 400grams) for a slicing cleaver. heavier cleavers are tiring to use

[@spacemandaxx]

All I can say after looking at that table - when the zombie apocalypse comes, you are ready.

[@gv8343]

What is the best vegetable chinese cleaver around $100?

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

CCKs are a good go to. I prefer their carbon steel knives, unfortunately they are difficult to get ahold of. I have a couple extra CCK 1301s that is ill be able to sell in a few weeks. There are also some good random name slicers that can be found in Chinese markets.

[@Jspg119]

Any suggestions on carbon steel cleavers?

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

my favorites are CCK 1301's or if you cant find it the 1302.

[@Jspg119]

@@cookingwithcleavers6842 hrc?

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

@@Jspg119 They are probably 57-58 ish. there are no official figures but it feels about in that range. Most Chinese made cleavers won't get much harder than that, if you want harder the options are custom knives or Japanese made chuka bocho

[@Jspg119]

@@cookingwithcleavers6842 dengjia knife xp 03 what do you think ?🤔

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

@@Jspg119 I don't have one and don't plan to get one for a couple reasons: it appears to have a bit more rounded of a belly than I like, it has a weird thick spine, and I don't like the handle. this is just from looking at it online so I could be wrong, but I personally would not recommend it. for carbon steel knives it is probably best to see if you can find a knife at a local Asian market/China town or buy CCK.

[@philipp594]

Carbon Steel is easier to make and cheaper. To have a high hardness stainless steel requires good steel and good heat treatment. So I would assume that most carbon steel chinese chef knifes have superior hardness / edge retention abilities to their stainless counterparts.

[@oexw4884]

do you even use those knives? i don't know any cook who uses a knife everyday that doesn't have scratches on them.

[@cookingwithcleavers6842]

Well when you never cut anything with bones or hard stuff, and are careful when sharpening and washing it it is pretty easy to avoid large scratches which would be noticeable on a video

[@DAVIDMILLER-nc9vo]

Steel is a compound of iron and carbon. ALL steel has carbon. Without carbon there is no steel. How, and why the media and the steel industry cloud the language and introduce ambiguity when discussing steel is mystifying. I repeat, ALL STEEL HAS CARBON. The term "carbon steel" is redundant.

[@chargv]

You are such a genius! How not a single person in the metallurgy industry knew that? My man, I'm glad you took the time to enlighten humanity.

[@CHUCKYOIC]

If you cut all the umm's and ahh's plus speak less monotonously, it'll make your content much more enjoyable and interesting 😉

[@Stratos.2]

It's fine. It feels more conversational rather than an overly polished video. He's more carbon steel than stainless lol.