Carmel High School Marching Band Grand National Semi-Finals Performance 2023

[@jakebengero208]

The flood looks so cool from this angle 💪

[@chrismorris2624]

This show blew me away. In person, it's like, "here we are. This is what we are doing. We are going to do it well, and you will like it" It was quite riveting in person.

[@cupofchair]

I got to watch this on field because we were on next and it felt so cool to hear them again last year we went on after them in prelims so it was nice to see them again

[@umarwali7184]

Breaking my heart to hear CADETS 85 knowing there"s no CADETS 2024

[@Samurai.5649]

Personally, Carmel does always seem to not have the most “interesting” show, but every single time they play and march whatever is thrown at them, almost perfectly.

[@overnightclassic2]

Perfectly? Are you deaf? Hebron is in a different stratosphere from these indiana bands. Carmel and avon could not play hebron's music. 99.99% of bands in america can not. As someone who neither went to school in Tennessee, Texas is the only state in america that has bands that sound like professionals.

[@DaMit123]

@@overnightclassic2no doubt that Hebron out plays Carmel and Avon. I mean they literally won the music category. However, drill and guard wise, Carmel and Avon take the cake. Hebron isn’t known for their visual effects and that’s fine because they are the best musicians in the country. However, whenever it comes to visual and GE(which literally counts for 60% of their score), Avon and Carmel out do them

[@overnightclassic2]

yes and bands in texas can improve on those levels and match carmel and avon. Is hebron even the best band in texas when it ocmes to music? No other high schools outside of texas will ever come close to texas because of the way that texas schools teach music. The other schools do not have an inherent advantage in drill/guard which texas can't compete.@@DaMit123

[@Samurai.5649]

@@overnightclassic2-_- that’s exactly why I didn’t say perfectly and yes I agree with you Hebron is definitely perfect in music

[@overnightclassic2]

Besides most people feel that music should be the primary score component of marching band. Because marching band is only 4 (not even full) semesters out of the 12 semesters of total music education. Music is a life skill and marching band is not.@@DaMit123

[@jerryhawthorne5482]

Just a thought. In terms of freshness, Avon, Carmel, Brownsburg and Fisher are all within about 30 minutes from the stadium. Hebron, Wodlands and the other Texas bands are around 1,000 miles and a 15 hour bus ride. (unless some can afford to fly) That would surely take something out of the kids. If the big battle between Indiana and Texas continues, it might be a good to take the Finals back to Atlanta.

[@KyleJTravis11]

2 things to consider… Texas groups aren’t traveling the day of competition. They’re staying in Indianapolis in nice rooms that are right next to the stadium. By your argument, it’s tougher on the groups that have to be bussed into the city! Of course, that sounds ridiculous. If we’re going to start comparing, might as well compare budgets, student to staff ratio, school size… might learn a few things about the advantages some schools have! Congrats to all of Texas, especially Hebron. Y’all are incredible.

[@overnightclassic2]

As an outsider I don't see it. I went to neither of these schools but texas bands are on a different level. Yes they have advantages in the way they teach but if it makes better musicians I am all for it.@@KyleJTravis11

[@myersbob7517]

I would love if finals were in Atlanta cause I would get to go to them

[@christinel5486]

The Indy bands also had to attend school, in person, most of the week....and also practice.

[@jerryhawthorne7779]

@@christinel5486... My comment was never to take anything from the Indiana bands, they were outstanding. Just there is a video of the Hebron Band's show, from a week or so earlier, that was cleaner than their final. Would it have won the whole BOA, we'll nerver know.

[@matthewlirette2186]

In my opinion the placements are right where they need to be, but the gap between 5-3 should have been a lot closer to 1-2. All top 5 bands blew me away but at the end of the day visual accounts for a bigger chunk of the overall score. Hebron killed it with music but somehow somewhere the judges on finals night found issues in visual (look at the 3 score sheets online to get more information). Each night there was a new judging panel as well which shook things up from what I understand. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter how lavish, extravagant, loud and fast the shows are, but how clean and visually proficient (marching and color guard included). So any school can put a more simple show on the field with good visual, clean music and beat out the other schools regardless. Again, this is my opinion, I’m not at all dismissing how they performed, we can all agree to disagree at the end of the day.

[@caivean2337]

Hebron earned 5th visual and honestly should've gotten 6th comparing them to William Mason, probably the worst looking feet in finals and weirdly dirty visuals especially compared to that top 6. But completely deserved 1st music, wasn't even close.

[@freshbeans]

3:52-4:33 my favorite part

[@caivean2337]

crazy how easily this show made the year before age poorly, did a very similar thing but managed to make it indescribably more entertaining and actually interesting

[@nahaight1373]

This beat Hebron?? Really??

[@angelahowell8296]

I know right? Terrible

[@nahaight1373]

@@angelahowell8296 they’re not terrible, I just don’t understand how they beat Hebron.

[@acquiredtastela1]

Hebron plays a lot of notes, very fast. It takes more than that to win. Gotta step up their visual game.

[@chrismorris7251]

@@acquiredtastela1correct, hebron won music but landed 5th in visual and 3rd in effect. they were fantastic nonetheless

[@scarysanta4811]

Yes they did. Carmel’s show was cleaner and better executed. They deserved to place higher.

[@littlemikeism]

Lots of drops. How does that get scored?

[@DaMit123]

You don’t lose points for dropping. In fact, you are scored on recoveries. I’ve seen tons of schools where a soloist would drop but recovered beautifully and end up getting the same amount of “points” that they would’ve got if they caught.

[@littlemikeism]

Thanks for the clarification. I had no clue how these drops were scored. @@DaMit123

[@johnnychikko3800]

America this is podium at BOA year over year. Music book is so remedial that ofcourse it’s gong to sound clean plus it checks visual boxes on BOA and ISSMA sheets to boot. We all know Gaines can design a stellar show but should BOA adjudication give 60% of points to a subjective GE linear system? 30% of which get awarded to the designer??! A non performer. Yes, the Midwest has WGI on lock down and I am a Hoosier fan but these Indiana programs are within driving distance to LOS and the WGI ambiance, judging and Technicians. Shouldn’t BOA take a pulse of the country as a whole? Maybe consider other regional skills sets? It breaks my heart yr over yr traveling programs have to go into an arena that absolutizes only a certain marching band philosophy. Let’s be honest Avon nor Carmel had any book difficulties compared to Hebron and other programs at Nats and other elites that did not attend Nats. Pageant ideologies and subjective artistry that has nothing to do with marching or playing is standard in BOA now. How does Visual alone become the keys to the keys to the kingdom? Asking for a friend

[@katana2140]

Saying Avon had no music difficulty compared to Hebron or other top bands is kinda wacky ngl. I’d say they had the second hardest book at nats easily and still top five of not three in the country. I feel like it’s not fair for people to praise Hebron so much on their music when Avon is the equivalent for visuals. Easily the hardest visuals in the country and still preformed the best. Plus visual alone is not what crippled the Texas bands, it was more so GE considering in music GE alone Avon and Carmel were a full point ahead of Hebron.

[@johnnychikko3800]

@@katana2140 The discussion is not that Avon and Carmel could full point anyone in the country considering present BOA adjudication handbooks. You missed my point. GE accounts for 60 % of the score and half of GE is designer metrics! That means that almost a 3rd of total score goes to an adult who is not even on the field! Don’t take my word for it feel free to read it yourself. Ofcourse Avon and Carmel will always have the top 1-5 visual books in the country any given year. That’s every year! To say that Avon’s brass music book difficulty was Top 2 at Nats is just not remotely true. Maybe Top 2 for the Midwest Programs but anything Texas at Nats was far more difficult overall. I’d maybe rank Avon Top 30 brass music book difficulty level in the country tbh in terms of valve movement and ensemble demand and that’s a maybe. Feel free to disagree tho.

[@katana2140]

@@johnnychikko3800 just out of curiosity what other nats programs would you say contained more difficult things? Well other than Hebron of course. Also I was saying that visuals are not the key to winning. They are definitely a part of it but GE is what made the biggest difference to who won. Also having 30% of the show being awarded due to the designers efforts kinda feels unfair but at the same time you can’t just not award the shows for their design. Also think about how much of the points come from the staff instruction. The hard work of the students would be worth very little without great instruction from staff so in that point of view nearly all points come from the staff not just 30%.

[@johnnychikko3800]

@@katana2140 Visually Avon and Carmel arguably had the most difficulty. Did they have the most difficult music woodwind or brass books at Finals? Absolutely not yet music scores are subjective with in BoA. Nothing in the adjudication handbooks about something as fundamental as tuning or intonation. It’s all about how performers or fan and judges interprets or feel. So advanced music valves movement’s techniques are not really necessary to score well at a BOA (ME, MI or GE caption music metrics) event. This is why I want to keep those Texas elites, Broken arrow and Tarpon funneling through Nats even if on rotations. They atleast attempt difficult DCI level brass books aswell as strong visuals! It’s more of an overall strategy and it should be rewarded better than what is presently on the BOA adjudication books. Under present BOA judging systems a program could literally March a variation of Doxology 100 (as Carmel often does) but as long as that show visually is artistically Midwest in nature (or Cartwright , Gaines etc) you will always find yourself on finals podium and scoring very well in GE. My original point is not even a Midwest vs others debate. This same “GE” debate has been happening for many years within Midwestern communities and judging philosophy. Many calling GE basically designer points! Yes it does take adult educators, techs, teachers, writers to set the stage for student develop but the argument is should the score be so heavily influenced (3rd) by the designer alone? Again, feel free to go back into the older MFA boards and adjudicator debates on this matter. Don’t take my work for it Back to the first question? Considering source level material, valve demand and overall power prowess do you really think that Avon or Carmel has a Top 10 -20 brass section 2010-2020’s. Maybe Avon 2010 would be an example because I loved that show I mean do you really see them the likes of Marcus, Vista, Tarpon Vandy, Coppel? I decided to list programs that didn’t attend Nats to make it interesting? If you do, please provide your defense (not using BoA scores). Just as a fan and or a brass student.

[@katana2140]

@@johnnychikko3800 okay first off I am not saying Carmel does much difficult music and I would agree with you on your opinion of their music. I would highly recommend you go watch Avon again to get a refresher on what they played cause it is still difficult with double tonguing, triple tonguing, and plenty of runs executed by both the woodwinds and brass. There is also more difficulty in music than just those showy things like playing while moving (especially while moving far and fast) and playing very loud for a long period of time like Avon did in their company front. I just watched Marcus literally a minute ago and to be honest I do not think their music is much harder than Avons if harder at all. Tarpon is in the same boat with still difficult music but not significantly harder if harder at all again. Vandy (who I also literally just watched) definitely did not have as hard as music as any of the bands already talked about except probably Carmel. Music also includes Drumline and no one can deny Avon is on top in that out of the top bands especially when considering the front ensemble. Also shows are awarded points for difficulty although being clean is considered more important. If no points are given for difficulty then Carmel would have beaten Hebron in music even with as great as Hebron was.

[@kirb2033]

they lost

[@sax_madness]

Yes Avon did indeed win

[@ChristopherNelson42]

There’s a big difference between not getting first in BOA and losing

[@larrylong6210]

Avon placed 1st in Finals by .20 points and Carmel placed 1st in Semifinals by .25 points... Both GREAT shows, as were all the shows on Saturday!

[@anotheroneofthecrowd9379]

They didn’t lose anything, they won silver.

[@dlogo96]

Carmel consistently has the most boring shows at grand nats with bits of "gotcha" moments, but somehow year after year the judges always seem to kiss ass with technicality, bogus GE overscoring, and field/timing judging. I'm 100% positive and sure these judges are just paid off to sway votes in favor for Indiana bands. When are we going to get real judges that don't cater to favoritism and over scoring shows that are absolute mid at best. 3rd placing a whole 2 points lower than 2nd and 1st is already a big red flag of nepotism, absolutely comical.

[@sax_madness]

Somebody cooked here

[@exactlyschrimps]

and how did your band do?

[@truthteller8504]

Dude Preach!

[@jwilk1281]

Bitter... Love Carmel and I'm from Michigan

[@jwilk1281]

Congratulations Carmel always a quality performance....