Caroline Ellison Describes Sam Bankman-Fried's Crimes (feat. Nikhilesh De) - Episode 135

[@thefrener794]

There is no way they could have hired a reputable accountant. That person would have quit right after being hired.

[@Dragon-Believer]

Or called the police.

[@HealingMedicyn]

It makes you wonder how they come off so incompetent yet simultaneously perpetrated the biggest financial fraud in history. Have you seen the FTX business structure? This is not a fly by night operation, regardless of what the media would like you to think. No one seems to want to report on the glaring issues that come about while we proclaim these KIDS are just crazy and incompetent criminal masterminds. How does that work?

[@mademsoisellerhapsody]

This is true. With such a lack of conscience at the top, you gotta walk.

[@JimIBobIJones]

They could have and should have if they weren't stupid. Most of the biggest financial scandals in modern history involve firms whose internal and external accountants (externals being auditors) were seen as world leading. They hire good accountants because they don't want to get caught - and more than a few accountants are willing to get in on the crime if they think they can get away with it. It gets them rich and it adds prestige for them to have a client who is seen as outperforming the market. Just look at Enron and the complicity of Arthur Anderson - which was one of the "Big Five" accounting firms at the time.

[@yomamma.ismydaddy216]

@@mademsoisellerhapsodylmao it has not to do with lack of conscience they just wouldn’t want to risk getting in trouble bc what they were doing was a big risk

[@scottkirby5016]

There is a maxim about what the defense is doing. If the Law is against you, argue the facts If the Facts are against you, argue the law If the Law and Facts are both against you, bang on the table

[@richard8242]

and get the money upfront

[@deaddropholiday]

I'd add to that - deny, deny, deny and make counter-accusations. As well as - when telling a lie always lie about motivations, never the facts.

[@colbyapple]

Nick Dey is a good reporter.

[@colbyapple]

Dozens of balançe sheets 8 to be exact.

[@colbyapple]

Is there a level of insane incompetence?

[@buriedpet]

It’s been quite a journey listening to this pod over the years. Thank you both for your amazing coverage🙏

[@bt2280]

I look forward to these interesting summaries, good job you guys👍🏻.

[@davidmurphy563]

Started watching, didn't expect to watch much before flicking on but that journalist in particular was excellent. And "150 million for the thing" - that was legendary! Good stuff, subbed.

[@nunyabizness573]

SBF should also be charged with identity theft for that, even though the stolen identities were prostitutes. This Effective Altruism theory seems to have set SBF far above the law in his own mind.

[@ckronenwetter]

Very much enjoying these guests and the trial talk.

[@spacewalktraveller1]

The SBF story is the story that just keeps on giving. You couldn't make this crap up in your wildest imagination. We still have the trials of the parents at a future date.

[@guldi3]

SBF definitely has the best lawyers stolen money can buy. Seeing that not even they can drag him out of the hole he dug himself gives me back hope for humanity. It seems like evil and wicked does not always win.

[@JR-yx3po]

After all the $ SBF gave to Dems, I think there’s a good chance that even if he’s convicted he’ll be pardoned.

[@torontowill]

Maybe they're the best stolen money can buy (they're the same law firm that represented Ghislane Maxwell, so certainly a last resort kind of firm for radioactive clients), but as is canvassed in this episode, they're not demonstrating any competence. Even arguing a bad case, you can still be effective at raising doubt about witness credibility, or establishing a theme of your case that you want the jury to remember. They aren't doing that. Something not canvassed in the episode is that the cross-exams *are* the defense's entire case. They don't have anyone on their witness list, they wanted to call some "experts" but they all got rejected (with the exception that they might be able to testify in a way that is responsive to something raised in the prosecution). So if they call any witness, it'll be Sam himself, and that will be a disaster. Them failing to make an impression with their cross-exams is them losing the case.

[@Dragon-Believer]

Where is Saul Goodman when you need him?

[@clumsyzombie3144]

Ironically, Laura Shin of the Unchained podcast has recently interviewed some defense lawyers who give much better ideas for defense for SBF than his actual lawyers. The real problem is, who the hell wants to defend SBF?!

[@Dragon-Believer]

@clumsyzombie3144 SBF stabs everyone in the back. I'm sure he'll try to throw his lawyers under the bus too. I'd just do what his lawyers are doing. Take the money and don't try too hard.

[@snestah]

The defense also might be weak bc they may be following instructions from Sam (if not also interference from his law school professor parents). Some of the questions mirror arguments by Sam - like, the pointless questioning about Sam not buying things like a yacht for himself (just for Trabucco) was similar to Sam's claim that Alameda did not have access to unlimited funds (just 65 billion...). I would not be surprised if the defense puts on some odd, academic argument based on nitpicky fact disagreements that completely ignores the big issues raised by the prosecution.

[@Intestine_Ballin-ism]

I would die from laughter if they pulled that high school debate club argument

[@loislois3526]

It’s bad also because there’s no way to talk out of it - there’s answers and evidence that could be answered but he refuses to take blame and therefore he’s a word salad of generalizations while the key witnesses actually bring some response. There’s no win for him I don’t know why he wouldn’t just take a plea besides he’s a total ego maniac

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Yay courtroom sketches! Thanks! Great episode! Another great guest. It'd be neat to have a few of the journalist-colleagues together who are at the trial to compare perspectives in a debrief episode post-trial ....+ Can we make a Bennett-as-trial-evidence hoodie?

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Ooh actually maybe, I think exhibits may legally be considered public domain and so might actually be able to do that

[@gregvinson1]

The defense looks bad because some cases are just so solid there is little u can do. Sam has three close friends that are turning on him. Two are very close friends from high school. If it were three employees who only knew Sam for a short time he may be able to affirm they had motives to lie. But it is a rough sell for this bunch. If Sam was not clearly guilty as sin no way these people betray him.

[@jackiwannapaint]

a guy like this doesnt have friends, close or otherwise. his parents can barely stand him

[@gregvinson1]

@@jackiwannapaint maybe thats true. Sam seems to be a narcissistic sociopath, but if he has any close friends it is these guys.

[@richard8242]

Do you think Sam betrayed their trust in him in anyway?

[@tupacalypse88]

​@@jackiwannapaintidk his parents seem to have been onboard

[@yoanadimitrova8760]

Good point, also though if they weren't so close they would have ratted him out from the beginning so this whole fraud wouldn't take off the ground. Maybe SBF selected friends on purpose?

[@yoanadimitrova8760]

I don't think Sam really believed in effective altruism, he admitted it in his texts to that journalist.

[@TaraTheFox]

Spicy. I was losing it at Bennett's face at 20:13 lol, their own glamour shot sinks the ship. (That they built while drowning) On that note, I understand the metaphor the defense is going for, but it is almost offensive to compare something like this to the aviation industry. That industry's overall impressive safety record didn't come from nowhere, it comes from people understanding that once you're risking civilians instead of test pilots, you need to do things differently.

[@SamRocher]

Thanks for the update from yourselves and Nik! I am in agreement that the defense doesn't have a movie-style masterplan to win, just are just doing what they can without resorting to doing actions that could get themselves disbarred. You don't need Alex Jones-level lawyers to lose a case, but I really do think that if it wasn't transparent to everyone that SBF is a dumb rich kid that never grew up, and if he had a large amount of secure money to draw from, he could have at least gotten better lawyers that may have ended up getting him a reduced sentence.

[@IsleyNumber1]

"we're joined by a very special guest" No cap, I thought you were gonna say it was Burrito 😭

[@susan_beaver]

Great coverage, thanks!

[@edsherwook5196]

Hearing she gave herself a 20 million dollar bonus long after it was apparent people’s money was gone makes me feel like she’s just as bad as him. Neither of them have any accountability and I hope they both end up getting jail

[@silmarian]

I've seen a few of Judge Kaplan's decisions and he is _not_ a man I'd mess with. He seems fair but he will not hesitate to call lawyers out on their bullpucky.

[@frevazz3364]

I have no doubt that Sam has been practicing in the mirror his courtroom speech because he absolutely will testify even if of the defense is against it. The guy has too large an ego, loves attention, and thinks he can talk past his issues so he is cherishing his chance to talk.

[@bettycattk5298]

He’d better practice NOT sounding like Donald Duck!!!!!!

[@Darrylizer1]

that worked out gloriously, for the prosecution.

[@frevazz3364]

@@Darrylizer1 indeed, as expected. The guy loves attention, can't help himself.

[@Darrylizer1]

@@frevazz3364 Agreed!

[@ryanlittle3440]

Great video!

[@pretorious700]

This trial is LOL a minute. Can you imagine, under these circumstances, declaring as a "defense" that "gee whiz, at least he didn't buy a yacht"...what level of pure absurdity are these defense lawyers pursuing?

[@hairychris444]

36:40 - speaking from the future, Nishad Singh's testimony has been pretty spicy!

[@Raucey]

34:20 I think it's much simpler than this. I think the "effective altruism" is clearly a bullshit excuse for "I want to make shitloads of money." The guy is a gambling addict, and he's taking the long shot gamble that maybe he could get off somehow. Any small chance of that happening is larger than the experience of suddenly being worth billions of dollars, so any gamble no matter how unlikely seems possible (or likely/certain) to him.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

18:40 This sounds like an elaborate version of the "yes I took 20 from the till but was going to put it back the next ____ [day/shift/pay period/etc]" thing. My uncle served time for that.

[@Thornspyre81]

They didn't offer him a plea deal.

[@morgank.1249]

Hilarious, thanks for putting this up!

[@alexamadams]

Great episode!

[@honourgaurd2809]

Great coverage of the trial. No news from Australia covering the trial.

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Which is kinda interesting because there is an Australian nexus: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJXOiYp9acdkqqM

[@ASMR4calmmoods]

Listening to Caroline Ellison speak is so painful. That leaked audio. 😑🤦🏼‍♀️

[@rock90753]

Lifetime jail sentence for SBF. He destroyed lives

[@Darrylizer1]

Dobby too, she was entirely complicit though perhaps less of a sociopath. Slightly.

[@wuldntuliktonoptb6861]

I’m pretty sure the lawyer was like ok they got a slam dunk we’re pleading this out right and SBF came back of course not I’m 1000% innocent so the lawyer has no idea how to even argue this case.

[@Gordon-d5y]

Good work boys

[@ishaq24722]

Anyone who gave money to a multi-billion dollar company that didn't have a CFO made an unwise investment, to say the least.

[@frevazz3364]

Kevin O'leary essentially said that his mommy and daddy are lawyers and they said Sam is special. Apparently that's all it takes in the privileged circles.😂😂😂

[@AcidOllie]

Great episode. I wish I could be in the courtroom watching it all!

[@EnglishInfidel]

The question I'm asking is, if you had that face, why the hell would you choose those glasses?

[@clumsyzombie3144]

Great insight as always! 34:04-35:47 is where I'm starting to think that SBF, in his deluded mind, is definitely going to take the stand #YOLO

[@gzerq]

It kind of sounds like SBF micro-managing his business to the degree that he did might sink him even deeper

[@gibbogle]

Sam's best defense is that he's stupid, like Dump's best defense is that he believed that he had the right to keep those files.

[@thedabblingwarlock]

If you want a laugh, look up Richard Liebowitz. I still maintain that Judge Kaplan is still out of patience from dealing with him.

[@davidnelson7149]

ET's daughter doesn't look any less weird no matter how many times I see her photo. Sam Bankman Fraud has the same taste in women as he does in hair styles.

[@grahamjones5400]

All that money and Brillo Head was boinking her.

[@colbyapple]

As the judge got frusterated with questioning he said some people dont have 10 minutes left to live.

[@gustavderkits8433]

Sam’s effective altruism life plan has already failed. His crime are all extremely negative utility because of the logarithmic relation of utility to money. Stealing from anyone much poorer than yourself is a big negative. His trial and subsequent appeals are all utility negative. At this point his life is utility negative. Math Econ trumps sociopathy. He’s not a sincere altruist.

[@richard8242]

It seems Sam was an effective con-man with an if only I were King mentality

[@nunyabizness573]

​​@@richard8242I agree. Con man is the ultimate description of SBF. He wasn't trying to improve the world of gentiles with "effective altruism." He was trying to destroy their world, possibly deliberately. This is definitely a case of actions speak louder than words. His excessive and lavish spending habits dispute any belief he was trying to "do the most good." The Republican party probably does not consider his attempt to buy an election as "doing good." That in itself is tragic for the voting mechanism, which belongs to the people.

[@harrydemontechristo8425]

At 12 mins 30 secs ish the way the guy succinctly described the Chinese bribe sequence of events in such a clear & concise manner, off the cuff so to speak shows he is super smart

[@PicaPauDiablo1]

This is awesome

[@debbiedorr3986]

looking forward to the movie

[@AndreasDionysopoulos]

how planes work 🤣🤣

[@TheseColoursDontRun]

Hey babe, new CCC just dropped❤

[@jimpollard9392]

Spectacular story. So incompetent and malign, and yet so celebrated by the elites.

[@thefrener794]

Lot of ordinary people celebrated him as well. Just focusing on so called elites lets a lot of pawns off the hook for making stupid choices to try to become elites themselves. Which is what it is all about.

[@catherinearmstrong388]

“Borrowed” from FTX customer? Really? 🙄

[@Roger_Smith]

Was this recorded before or after nishad Singh testimony

[@CryptoCriticPod]

Before

[@EtherealAriel]

Don't make such a big deal about the defense being terrible. It could potentially be used as credence to an incompetent defense reasoning for an appeal.

[@CryptoCriticPod]

No, that requires much worse things than what they’re doing

[@ladycountdown]

However, no equity because company will ultimately be worthless.

[@qsick101]

They had my uncle Pauly as an accountant. He comes from waste management

[@theupson]

well he was overqualified but price was no object, right?

[@FizzleFX]

1:55 this is love. "x or whatever" THIS holds so true. NOBODY GIVES A FUCK for 'X... its just twitter.... always will be. rebrand fail

[@gibbogle]

Has the word 'Ponzi' been uttered yet in court? Read Easy Money by Ben McKenzie.

[@deaddropholiday]

I've more respect for SBF than the people who've thrown him under the bus whilst being equally culpable. But I guess when the Federal Government puts the squeeze on you the options are all bad.

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

Clicked so fast. Just starting but oh please I'm in a petty mood so on top of the usual CCC meaty journalism/commentary/analyses please please I hope they cover Caroline not recognizing SBF for an uncomfortable amount of time. [Also let's all start referring to The Dead Bird App as "X-Whatever" as Cas does here.]

[@colbyapple]

Move fast and break things

[@phizzhead53]

15:35 ahh the accountants delima do you inflatee revenue to pump your stock price or understate it to pay less taxes😂😂😂😂😂

[@kimthreadgold2755]

For a team that uses quick books...they knew all the accounting rules because they created complicated processes to get around them. Lack of knowledge isn't an excuse but yet they continually tried to claim dumb? Example of smart people thinking know one will figure out the scam.

[@michellemurray1784]

Do you think Ellison was the fall guy all along?

[@AndreasDionysopoulos]

"Falling" on 20M bucks on the floor of the Bahamas condo is not really a splash 🤔🤔

[@picahudsoniaunflocked5426]

mood: mad bc I had to spend $ relatable

[@colbyapple]

The defense is not doing such a great job.

[@benjaminaristotleboes3157]

8:00 You mention taking notes, think, if they've got even one person like you or me doing that Sam will be TOAST

[@colbyapple]

A plane being built mid flight.

[@ohhs7830]

The evil man told me to do it...

[@ryanswild]

You boys smoking hella tree yeah buddy

[@KyleSGibson]

Strong beard game in this here podcast

[@magikindian]

Sam and his friends conned yall.

[@ulyssesware6815]

What is the proof the actual "150M" was actually paid to Chinese officials, rather than actually paid to SBF and his cronies in a covert, undercover deal to make it look like the money was paid to the Chinese? There is no way the Chinese are coming forward to testify about this, which is why the money was not paid to the Chinese, but to SBF and his cronies. That money is safe and waiting for SBF, and is being used right now. Please do critical thought experiments before jumping on the false narratives.

[@RSV4JeffA]

Sam.

[@nunyabizness573]

SBF wasn't Ellison's "boyfriend." By her own admission, Ellison is "polyamorous." ETA: he was "one" of her boyfriends, not "her boyfriend."

[@VideoGamerNerd]

Non-exclusive romantic partners are still romantic partners...?

[@DLF-xq9lq]

She was his main partner, so his girlfriend. Polyamorius people can have romantic relationships. Sam hasn't argued against her being called his girlfriend either.

[@nunyabizness573]

@@DLF-xq9lq FYI, Caroline Ellison compared her polyamorous relationship with SBF to a "Chinese harem" where everyone has a "rank" and must know everyone else's rank and act accordingly. Unfortunately I can't point you to the source of this information. Hopefully you can find it via Google. My point is, Ellison is as guilty of conspiracy as Ghislane Maxwell for the same reasons. She wanted top ranking.

[@nunyabizness573]

@@VideoGamerNerd yeah, so? Girlfriend implies singular. Neither she nor he were involved in singular, monogamous relationships.

[@VideoGamerNerd]

@@nunyabizness573 With all due respect, it only implies that in your head. A girlfriend is a female romantic partner. A boyfriend is a male romantic partner. That's the entirety of those words' definitions. If someone is polyamorous and dating two women, they can perfectly reasonably be said to have two girlfriends. If Ellison dated multiple people and Sam was one of them, Sam was her boyfriend.

[@apollothirteen9236]

Rich lives matter. Free SBF! No justice, no peace!

[@MS-ql8ek]

I think everyone involved should all go to jail for atlease 60yrs, even the janitor that comes in once a week who gets $7.50 an hr😅

[@benjaminaristotleboes3157]

I mean, if the janitor KNEW, then absolutely YES

[@jmitterii2]

@@benjaminaristotleboes3157 The janitor making 7.50 an hour obviously knew nothing... they were making Federal min wage. A wage that even in Bahama's puts you in the streets.

[@roc7880]

a deal means the prosecutrion can drop charges, not a reduced sentence that is established by the judge who only takes in consideration the advice of the DAs. I worried that people would use abusive relationships in their past as an excuse for crimes. If Caroline can defend herself like that, Sam can also say he was abused by hid dad or Yoda. I was a shitty friend and boyfriend a few times myself, I did not start a fraudulent company. would you prefer a shitty boyfriend but honest person, or a nice guy who lies about the business as a CEO? plus, a hostile judge might allienate the jury against the DAs, the defense only needs one juror to get a retrial, think about it. and bring Johnny Cochran from the dead, he will make it about race and religion, and say it was all fabricated by the DAs and some antisemitic ex-employees. Have you ever cursed the Jewish people, Mr. Wang? Is that you here at Christmas with a baby Jesus? Do you believe Jewish people can be saved for Jesus?.....

[@DocLz]

Caroline has already pled guilty to the crimes. It would be a bit late for her to try any defense now.

[@tonyrareman8088]

CIA

[@DocLz]

lol

[@jamesoleary1078]

Waste of time he will get a pardon

[@untitled795]

man bad woman good

[@F_Elon]

Lesson for everyone don't trust young greedy University graduates

[@I.AM.JUPITER]

Young white, greedy, university graduates