Carpenters: The "Third" Carpenter: A Conversation with John Bettis, Pt 2 2014

We continue in our discussion with John Bettis regarding many of the songs he's contributed to the Carpenters' catalogue via his songwriting partnership with Richard Carpenter. John also shares some of his own personal thoughts on the shelving of Karen's solo album from 1980, along with his overall feelings about the recent biography Little Girl Blue: The Life Of Karen Carpenter written by author Randy Schmidt. We also discuss the rumored song from Christmas of 1982 that was written for Karen shortly before her sudden death that she never had the opportunity to hear. **This segment includes additional discussion not included in the original 28-minute broadcast.

[@tweetybird2968]

Great, great interview!!!! I still love all the Carpenters music. And I love her solo album as well. She put so much into that album. Not just her heart and soul, but her money as well. I think Richard should have been supportive, after all, she was always 100% loyal and supportive of Richard. Karen deserved so much better at that time. It’s painful to know how much pain and torment she went thru. She always seemed so genuine and loving , Karen’s ending really should have been different.......Still amazing to listen to her voice. Karen will never be forgotten!!

[@pullinstringstheband]

The general public just hears the finished song without a second thought. John Bettis breaks down the science of creating a lyric and composition for Karen's voice. Brilliant.

[@margaretw9233]

What a wonderfully detailed interview! Just as I thought all along...Karen, Richard & John were/are perfectionists and it was reflected in every song they produced. When I would bring home a new Carpenters record, I would listen to it multiple times, zeroing in on the lyrics, each of the instrumental parts and vocal harmonies. No other artists could make music like these people.

[@scoobydoo8847]

Just gonna say, I ***LOVE**** Karen's solo album! it's amazing.

[@billparthum206]

If We Try and If I Had You were 2 outstanding tracks on her solo album!

[@artistbrindle]

I do too! Bettis doesn’t like it because Richard doesn’t. Period.

[@matrox]

Where can I hear the album?

[@matrox]

OK I just found her Solo album and listened to it. Her voice sounds good but lets face it...it ain't no Richard Carpenter arraingment. The back beat and instrumentals are right off the shelf and can be found in hundreds of songs lost in the shuffle. Almost like a disco jazzy type beat. No real memberable melodies like a Carpenter arraingement. As soon as the song is over are you still humming the melody?...No! These songs do NOT showcase her voice, too much going on with the backing music. A Carpenter song stands out, you remember the melody and lyrics for 50 years or more. Not so in her solo album. I listened to it 15 min ago and can't remember anything I just heard.

[@artistbrindle]

@@matrox I get what your saying but I feel that way about Freddy Mercury’s solo efforts as well. Still, he was allowed to release them. I feel like she should have been given the same freedom to experiment with different sounds.

[@SummerofKittyLove]

I like John. So perceptive, musically and beyond

[@didi7680]

LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS INTERVIEW!

[@rogerwilliams2629]

Incredible insight from a hugely gifted songwriter, gleaned from an excellent interview. Thanks so much!

[@RitaSora]

Happy Birthday John Bettis!❤🎉 10-24-24.I will always love your lyrics.Thank You! Love You John!❤

[@todl.2478]

AMAZING 👏 👏👏 Thank you!!!

[@octobersun221]

This is incredibly educational! Thanks!

[@RitaSora]

Great interview thanks for posting it.

[@eisenjocasaclang1701]

An interview of Hal Blaine & Joe Osborne who've worked w/ Sinatra, Streisand, Elvis, the Beachboys among others by Chris May & Elli Tourje jst shows how truly talented & special Karen is

[@facedownchuck]

Great interview!

[@Bruce-vq7ni]

Love those dial up sounds at the start. Takes me back to the 90s.

[@criostoirnott3733]

Superb interview. Some great insights from John. I get a sense he and Karen had a separate connection that she did not even have with Richard. It's very interesting that John mentions that Karen was far from a meek, shrinking violet. While Randy's book was very good, as John said, it collated (very well, I might add) a lot of what was out there already into a well written version of events generally but it appears to paint a quite inaccurate version of the Karen that John knew. It has been said elsewhere that Karen was a very driven individual and a perfectionist when it came to her music. If you take John's observations on Karen, as well as those of Frenda, Debbie Cuticello and others, they only scratch the surface of what was a very complicated individual in Karen. I've always had a sense that Karen's anorexia was more linked to depression and a lack of self worth than body image. We will never know the true story as Karen is the only one who could tell the real story.

[@bertanelson8062]

From the story of Karen defending her brother from bullies as kids to insisting on playing the drums in marching band when "girls don't drum" to taking it in stride when another top female vocalist publicly criticized her, we can gather that Karen was anything but a shrinking violet type.

[@johnpaley8857]

Great to get a further insight into the Carpenters. I disagree with the comments about Karen's solo album. It was overall a good album. Richard secumed to professional jealousy in my opinion .

[@michaelbarlow6610]

The one major flaw in this otherwise superb long interview with John Bettis is that the interviewer never asked Bettis any questions about Agnes Carpenter and Karen's relationship with her, or about Harold Carpenter (Karen's father).The Carpenters' band undoubtedly didn't refer to Agnes Carpenter as "The Dragon Lady" for no reason at all ! I guess that the interviewer was as the old expression goes, "afraid to go there".

[@chrismay7094]

Actually, I intentionally omitted those questions out of respect for John and Richard's continued working relationship and friendship.

[@michaelbarlow6610]

@ Chris May. Thanks Mr. May for the explanation. I would imagine that John Bettis would have felt very uncomfortable answering those questions because of his friendship with Richard Carpenter if you had asked those questions.

[@adriandowningiii8395]

@@chrismay7094 Thank you for omitting those questions too.

[@adriandowningiii8395]

@@michaelbarlow6610 I never met John but I did know Karen very well. On the "Dragon Lady" stuff. That actually started around 1971 I believe and at the time, Karen was babysitting a neighbor boy named Jason. Karen loved having an imagination and used to make up stories for Jason (Jason was about 5 years old at the time). One of Karen's and Jason's favorite stories was a story about "The Dragon Lady" which was actually based on Karen's mom, Agnes. There were a few different variations of the story like "The Dragon Lady visits New York" and "The Dragon Lady saves LA" and stuff like that. But the Dragon Lady was a lady that was very fierce and protective but also had a very tender and caring and vulnerable heart (just like Karen's mom). Yup, for reference the band would refer to Agnes as 'The Dragon Lady' in private. For a short while, Agnes and Karen referred to Maria, Karen's personal assistant, as "The Two-Headed Dragon Lady" around 1972 I believe. John wouldn't have known the rest of this I don't think and it would have made a mess of the interview I feel and put John on the spot. Karen and her mom were very close and they had many secrets that they kept between themselves.

[@michaelbarlow6610]

@ Adrian Downing lll. Perhaps you might be able to answer a question that undoubtedly many fans of the Carpenters have wondered about. After Karen Carpenter died, Agnes Carpenter, Harold Carpenter and Richard Carpenter made an appearance on "Good Morning America". As I recall they were interviewed by either David Hartman and/or Joan Lundan. During the interview not one single question was asked of Harold Carpenter by the interviewer(s), which made it blatantly obvious that sometime prior to that interview either the Carpenter's family attorney or the Carpenters family or both must have told the producers of "Good Morning America" that they would only do the interview provided that no questions were asked of Karen's father Harold Carpenter. Which raises the obvious question of why they didn't want Harold Carpenter to be asked any questions? Were they afraid that he would accidentally "spill the beans" about some embarrassing family secret that the Carpenters family did not want revealed publically?

[@nealbraatz3911]

I wish all the people, on KZbin, who have called Richard "just a lounge piano player", "jealous of Karen", and "selfish", would watch this interview. John Bettis was there, socializing and participating, first hand, with Karen and Richard. Therefore, his observations are based on facts, not fan speculation. So when he says that Richard was a musical genius who only wanted the best for Karen, I believe him. When he said A&M shelved her album, not because Richard was jealous, but because they didn't feel it was good enough, I believe him. (And agree. Karen was great, but the album was not Carpenters quality). Lastly, he said that Karen was a lot stronger and "grittier" than people gave her credit for, so to suggest that her mother and Richard caused her to starve herself to death is not only disrespectful to Karen, it's another false narrative. As John concluded, "those who want to villainies Richard, have never met Karen". I believe him.

[@matrox]

33:00 They put her in a good car, but she couldn't drive a stick.😁

[@ionthetarget]

Rangey. Adorable.

[@Mrvictorfernandes]

I still have a hard time believing that Richard still has a problem with the "Horizon" album. It's unfortunate but understandable, given his perfectionist tendencies. I once wrote an essay where I aired out my feelings on the impact "Horizon" had on me as a child, and it ended with these words: "For all its jumping across genres, 'Horizon' holds together remarkably well. Like Pink Floyd's 'Wish You Were Here' released that same year, the overall vibe it conjures up remains so palpable you can help but get swept up in its emotions. Karen may be the record's focal point for the tear-drying, warm consoling hug that was her ethereal alto voice, but 'Horizon' is Richard's baby, representing the peak of his underrated prowess as a producer, arranger, musician, and songwriter. Its breathtaking depth and scale makes it one of the best - albeit underestimated - examples of twenty-four track analogue at its most warm and exquisite. It's a beguiling anomaly, a multifaceted, heartfelt - yet forward looking - work from a preconceived 'squeaky clean' band."

[@lindsaynicole1218]

Great find ...love this interview. I was not a fan of Karen's solo album. I feel some people feel like that HAVE to love the album just because it's Karen but ...I feel she would have done much better without Phil Ramone. She was singing in a higher key at times and it didn't work. And Peter Cetera ...ugh

[@criostoirnott3733]

I agree, the solo album was not great and John hit the nail on the head. If it was going to be a success, then A&M would have put it out regardless. To be fair, I think that while Phil Ramone was not a good fit for Karen musically. However, he and his wife, Ichie were very loyal and great friends to Karen between 1979 and 1982 when Karen needed support that she appeared not to get from family - this should not be forgotten. Also, Phil Ramone was a brilliant producer in his own right who did terrific work with many artists and John Bettis even acknowledged this.

[@therenazone]

I wonder if he and Richard wrote any other songs after Karen's passing... Btw Turn Away is my favorite although everyone ignores that one 😂😂😂😂

[@billparthum206]

Great question. I thought the same thing after this interview. He did mention there were probably like 2 dozen songs written by them for her hidden in a drawer somewhere.

[@skullduggery3377]

hi, i'm robert zimmerman. would you like to have a cup of coffee with me?