CATL Shenxing Plus Technical Deep Dive // How it Fast Charges

[@dawg_gee_man]

Hi Jordan, I own a Tesla Model 3 with an LFP pack and live in a very cold climate. At -20c and below I typically supercharge around 10-20kW, but with a good, long precondition on the highway I can get to maybe 60kW. This is compared to my 180kW max, so I get about 33% of my rated charging speed, or less, on current Tesla LFP battery equipment. The Shenxing Plus battery sounds like a big improvement for cold climate people.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Amen! I noted this in the video "better low temperature performance will be very useful for daily driving in colder climates like Canada. "

[@michachojnowski9004]

I have this LFP 60kWh battery too but if I preconditioning in home before travel it's better than , heating when car is on the road . Remember TM3 after 2021 have heat pomp and preconditioning battery only with heat pomp and one engine. Cars with AWD have faster and more powerful preconditioning because of 2 engines. Tesla use engine to heat up battery. Tesla's with heatpump don't have battery heater like old S and X.

[@thedarksideofevan4690]

CATL and Tesla are working on it, so we will see Tesla with LFP batteries that can be charged at low temperatures in the future

[@celeron55]

There's a non-zero chance Tesla has used their data to request CATL for better low temperature LFP performance. Tesla can easily see your pain in the charging statistics and CATL is their LFP supplier.

[@JRP3]

Excellent reality check on the marketing specs.

[@kevtheobald]

Another great video, Jordan. I love the caution on just taking at face value the PR from companies. I have lots of respect for CATL, they have earned their place. With that said, you should always question the value of their press releases, and your video shows an example of why. No one should just trust what companies say.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Amen! CATL is super impressive. The really kick butt. But yes, they do add a bit of garnish sometimes 😁

[@AntonioDiNunnoEVS]

Excellent synopsis on the announcement and the technology, Jordan

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing! Thanks for stopping by bud!

[@driftlessheights6177]

Excellent practical information without the babble. thank you for helping me understand!

[@guavabakka]

Excellent content, Jordan. As usual 🙏🏾. Thank you for parsing the excess jargon. Consummate professional you are. More please

[@thelimitingfactor]

lol, yes, the jargon really chaps my ass. Why can't people just speak in plain English.

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Many non-Tesla fast chargers installed in europe in recent years are 350 kW rated (500 A limit at any voltage, 350 kW limit at high voltage) and 400kW units are becoming more popular now. These charge rates can only be hit with 800V or higher voltage cars due to the current limit.

[@bobo-cc1xw]

500a is the limit for air cooled cable and even then those cables are thick and harder for consumers. I would think water-cooled cables for trucks should trickle down and they will use larger chargers It is 4c for 100kwh battery at 400kw which is a fair rate but maybe able to use moar powa at times

[@maxiferrari08]

​@@bobo-cc1xwyou have to consider that some fast chargers, like the alpitronic ones, share the 400 kW power to a maximum of 4 outlets, but they can use the whole power for one outlet if available

[@w0ttheh3ll]

@@bobo-cc1xw it's not just a thermal limit, the power electronics (the actual expensive part) are limited to this current. water-cooled cables are a somewhat common option but they don't increase the maximum current.

[@bobo-cc1xw]

Primary limit is the cable from car to dispenser. Larger power electronics by a smidge easy. Bigger cables to dispensers easy. More flexible cable pretty hard. Water cooled cable adds a tone of cooling hardware which costs. Cable can be a fair price vs some marginal power electronics Alptronic i believe is on pheonix contact cables i believe you can buy on rs. But on mobile. there are 3 companies who made them Source = designed chargers and before that power electronics.

[@davidgunther8428]

@@bobo-cc1xw how are the contracts at the car? Can they handle many plug cycles and still handle 1000A? I'd think going even higher voltage would be easier than upping the current 50%.

[@gregbailey45]

Very professional and informative as usual. I always look forward to hearing your prognostications and discoveries!

[@thelimitingfactor]

🤠✊

[@josephvanorden3782]

Professional and well done!

[@tabottietjen3186]

I've been waiting for this one. Thanks Jordon!

[@thelimitingfactor]

You're most welcome!

[@jimurrata6785]

I like your animations. While i can easily grasp the narrative, its obvious that you put some time into your graphic representations

[@rb8049]

Always great!!!

[@feedvid]

Excellent video. 👍

[@tommckinney1489]

Thanks for the in-depth explanation.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing Tom!

[@helmutshotthesheriff1942]

Thanks!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing man!

[@Y2Kvids]

4C Batteries on Motorcycles are game Changer .

[@kyleronen]

Watched the likes go from 217 to 422 while I watched this video. I love how many people find this dense topic enjoyable to learn about!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yeah, there's a hardcore group out there, lol. This isn't easy subject matter.

[@vermontsownboy6957]

Jordan - I thought I knew the battery and charger landscape pretty well, but you've presented a Master Class-level analysis and presentation so excellent, incisive, and clear I'm still wrapping my head around it. Incredibly well done, man. Props!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing man! 🤠

[@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461]

THANKS JORDAN 🤗AND YOUR PATRON SUPPORTERS ,FOR THE INFO ℹ️🔋🔋🔋

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Nice video. I assume that the lower viscosity electrolyte significantly improves charge and discharge power at low temperatures. Such battery packs could effectively be operated at a lower temperature, so you would need to spend less energy and time heating the battery.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🎯

[@AntonioDiNunnoEVS]

@@thelimitingfactor low viscosity would allow better ion flow at low temps, correct :D

[@chrishaberbosch1029]

Well timed video! Thanks

[@jeffreyhampton9130]

Excellent job. really good content

[@thelimitingfactor]

Glad it hear it!

[@BGittins1]

Thx for the balanced report

[@MrFoxRobert]

Thank you!

[@joe2mercs]

I have mate of mine who had a Porsche Taycan. He lives in Germany and occasionally he would take a trip to see his father about 500km away. Like a lot Germans he would thrash down the autobahn at very speeds, 150mph+ (250kmph+). The battery would be depleted in less than an hour. He would then have wait at least 45 minutes to get reasonable charge back into his battery before he set off again at ridiculous speeds. I used to tell him that if he travelled at half the speed the improvement in efficiency would perhaps allow him to the do the trip on one charge at the same average speed. His would reply; ‘what is the point of having a Porsche if you cannot drive fast in it?’. He then informed me that although many charging stations profess to supply 350kWh his reality suggested that the general maximum was rarely over 150KWh. Like charging stations I think many battery companies and car companies generally over-promise and under-supply.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Great points all around! Yeah, I went out west last year and set my cruise to 100 mph I got passed by the same old couple that day about 4 times that was going 80mph at a steady speed - totally not worth it to go faster than about 85 mph because you end up losing time.

[@GreenDriveIndia]

Taycan should easily hit 250 kw, may be he is forgetting to precondition

[@draco_2727]

Excellent info Jordan, thanks for the effort you put on the videos and animations 👏

[@thelimitingfactor]

Sure thing man! 😀

[@suggesttwo]

Beware of the words: up to

[@simonlang678]

Actually in China lots of locations that will be real useful, low temp charging is pretty common for lots of places in China for at least 3 months of a year some longer

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yup, I said as much - that it'll be useful in some cases. Not the bulk of cases though.

[@simonlang678]

@@thelimitingfactor still the cold factor charging for china think mongolia, northern China this will be really usefull

[@eclecticcyclist]

The CLTC rating is not optimistic but more acurate for the average type of driving in China which involves more use of low speed congested city driving rather than the American profile of more high speed highway use.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Fair point!

[@PaulStet]

it'strue driving in China's far denser cityes than US and EU consumption will differ a bit on average but from my experience even WLTP is more optimistic than real world 😊

[@syweiner434]

Interesting how CATL reduced the price of their last-generation batteries to TSLA by 10% shortly before announcing a next-gen technology.

[@utube091116]

XLnt again Jordan! It shows again that the emphasis of batt tech development should rather focus on total efficiency of the system than on the speed of driving/charging. As this will drastically better the lifetime of the batteries, together with the building of a well developed /reliable charge pod grid.

[@thelimitingfactor]

🎯 Thanks man!

[@anunexpectedfire4062]

Lots of news the past week about supposed solid state batteries nearing commercial scale up. I am skeptical. Would love Jordan to weigh in 😊

[@thelimitingfactor]

They've been scaling for about 5 years. The problem is they still kind of suck when looked at holistically (e.g. cost) and it takes about a decade to scale a battery technology to global levels. 🤠

[@seancollins9745]

Very cool, Tesla could develop a competing chemistry for sure

[@swecreations]

3:52 It's worth noting 300-350 kW chargers (and now even 400 kW too) are becoming very common in Europe. Doubt cycle life will be an issue considering how extreme LFP-battery cycle life is, with 4000-12000 cycles and 25-30+ year lifespans being typical.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yeah, it's very region and brand dependent I agree, cycle life/calendar life are less of a concern now. I'll be doing a video on this

[@davidgunther8428]

The faster charging and charging at low temperature capability are probably connected by the choice of electrolyte mixture. Ethylene and proplyene carbonate start to freeze at low temperatures. Adding ceramic layers to the separator films is also very interesting.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Bingo! 🤠

[@barygol]

It's unbelievable that Tesla is not going with Shenxing Plus for new Model Y Juniper and went instead for the CATL 6M

[@sallerc]

Is it? I find that we have too little information to determine if it's indeed unbelievable. Do we even know they will use CATL 6M? Please share source in that case, would be interesting to know.

[@thelimitingfactor]

They could. I'm not really attached to either outcome. They'll do what's best for their product in the long run.

[@barygol]

@@sallerc the data for the homologations of the batteries for M3 and MY SR for 2025 were leaked. 62.5kWh and 1kg less. You have multiple sources with the info. Energy density is around 4%more with 6M while Shenxing+ was about 20% more. I was waiting for MY Juníper cause they were supposed to bring Shenxing+ and BYD Blade 2.0. if the 6M is confirmed I'd probably pass and go with XPeng G6/ zeekr 7x

[@N1rOx]

How are you coming up with the figures for your "real-world" range? What is real-world to you?

[@thelimitingfactor]

The speed I drive at to keep up with traffic - 75-85 mph

[@N1rOx]

@@thelimitingfactor Thanks for getting back. I think it's important to know what constitutes a person's "real-world". Where I'm from, the absolute speed limit is 68mph with the vast majority of highway roads being capped at 60mph. Speed limits are also treated as they are, speed limits. Moreover, highway driving constitutes about 20-40% of my daily needs on mostly flat elevation. This means, for me, the range would increase by quite a bit from your real world figures. My real world would see closer to EPA, likely more. This could cause an entirely different takeaway of the vehicle when looking at someone else's "real-world" vs your own "real-world".

[@cajampa]

Very good info, thanks. One thing i have never seen you mention, is all these high voltage Lithium batteries that seem to exist in our modern phones. Is that not a tech that is applied to new versions of car batteries also? My new phone charges its battery to almost 4.5 volt at 100%.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Thanks! Yeah, I focus on the bulk of the market, which is EV's and grid storage. Cell phone batteries are a different beast all together. They have very different requirements. A lot of the same materials, but different software and hardware control, and different cycle life and power requirements.

[@cajampa]

@thelimitingfactor You seem to missed my point. It seems modern cell phones batteries have gone to high voltage designs to get more capacity in the same sizes and form factors. I am asking you who seem to have a lock on the car battery tech. If not any of them have mentioned in either products or patents. To be using also high voltage lithium designs? Because it seems the tech works perfectly fine and it also combined with all the extreme high C rates charging capabilities. There has to be some cross over because they all are after the same things in the end more capacity and faster charging. And the techs that facilities this.

[@ctuna2011]

Since it's low charge density in watts per kilo relative to NCM how do they get the extended range.

[@greenearth9945]

Probably better packing density. The zeekr001 has the LFP Shenxing battery. The pack weighs 720kg and is 95kWh which translates to around 132w/kg at pack level. Im pretty sure the CATL LFP battery has 125w/kg so a small improvement but a far cry from the 205w/kg claim. The battery pack has a density of 83,7% so at cell level its around 158w/kg which is the same as the current LFPs. I think the charging rate and cold climate resistance is were the significant improvements are

[@sairam-hy9wr]

Sir is there any online course or books related to understand the lithium ion battery about the cathode material and graphs to understand please suggest me sir

[@marcusschou1843]

What is your toughts on Talga group in 2024 going into 2025? Love your videos!

[@thelimitingfactor]

I've always enjoyed my chats with Mark. Last I checked, they were making good progress. But, I have done a re-deep dive in a while.

[@jeffharmed1616]

Cherry SS battery has better specs and the factory is being built now

[@AntonioDiNunnoEVS]

Keeping an eye on that one! Its interesting.

[@RagnarinVa]

Well with solid state be careful - yields are the challenge. Building a factory does not mean it can scale.

[@thehobe150]

Excellent rundown of the battery technology development. China MAY be moving too quickly and having some risk.

[@RedRouge-j4j]

There is always a problem shoehorning multiple cute technologies into one new product. And it usually comes down to hidden interactions, or quality control over materials & processes. And there is always the public, they do things you cannot predict!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Good point!

[@UnyieldQuest]

You are impressed by CATL, but start with all possible negatives :-D

[@thelimitingfactor]

Do you want the good news before the bad, or the bad news before the good?

[@KenLeonard]

I prefer to know the exceptions first. The BS (marketing) needs a reality check first.

[@paulnas2280]

Wouldn't this new battery support higher charging speeds for longer, thereby achieving a quicker overall charge, even if the charger tops out at "only" 250kW?

[@thelimitingfactor]

Yup! I noted this in the video

[@drgyt2469]

I would follow a different strategy with this battery. A 50 kWh sized battery would be cheaper, lighter and convenient enough to operate/drive because of the quick charge using the existing infrastructure!

[@thelimitingfactor]

Depends on the vehicle and trim

[@drgyt2469]

@@thelimitingfactor Yes! I think for cars one could always downsize the battery when you can make a quick stop and charge it in 10 min. 20 or 30 minutes is kind of too long.

[@ch4.hayabusa]

I thought highland/Cybertruck EPA 2024 ranges were spot on with the real world range

[@thelimitingfactor]

Only if you drive 70 mph. I drive 80 mph 😁 Note, it also dependds on the vehicle trim. It's still not accurate for the performance Model 3 (from memory)

[@krisvandermeulen253]

The CATL announcement is what you get when a marketing department rehashes a consice technical document - half the information and all minor positives highlighted => a loss of technical context

[@thelimitingfactor]

🎯

[@LawpickingLocksmith]

Please help stamping out them EV haters spreading misinformation of wrong fire information!

[@johnpoldo8817]

US appears to be in catch-up status to Chinese batteries. Let’s put the pedal to the metal.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Amen

[@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck]

In the tradition of American traveling salesMEN, let’s put the peddle to the medal!❤

[@stanmitchell3375]

I wouldn't care about charging speed,.safety,life,costare more important

[@paouvous]

Nobody really needs a 7.500 cycle life battery. What I care is the time degradation. I want a battery that will last me 20 or 25 years @80% original capacity. In terms of cycles 1000 cycles is good enough and anything above it simply a bonus.

[@thelimitingfactor]

For given chemistry, cycle life tends to correspond to calendar life. Very good point though. Batteries are perishable to a certain extent. More like fruit than engines

[@jonathangwynne1917]

Talking about range claims in distance (km/mi) is meaningless. Talk about kWh of capacity and % of capacity. Also manufacturing cost is important. It wouldn't matter much if it costs $200/kWh.

[@krimdelko]

Charging speed is an overrated spec. I've been driving a Model Y for over four years and almost never has charging speed been an issue. Neither was range. What matters is cycle life and reliability. Even cost is not so much of an issue anymore.

[@sallerc]

Mostly agree. Charging infrastructure also matters, in some areas it needs improving at least.

[@thelimitingfactor]

Amen, once you have an EV, you realize that charging speed doesn't really matter than much for most people. Most people only need like 10 kWh in a day.

[@Bestreducer]

that'd be real milestone to have LFP battery that can compete with high nickel making it secondary. A lot (>40%) of people that sold their EVs are afraid of low charge level issues (that can't be solved with anything like fuel can) and burning their house down (since it should be normal to plug in the car overnight). There is a lot of China EVs that have real weak battery but that consumer issue is also about Teslas. My bad - can't find research about it in my browser history (and this research also have high price so there was no deep info available for me). And we have an alternative - e-turbo systems (don't confuse with GM e-turbo engine) that ups petrol fuel efficiency to modern diesel ones (like 50%+) and not as heavy/complicated as other hybrids (inverter is still used so not _that_ simple but still less than 50-100kg). People may shift into it and EVs may not become main transport ензу for another ~20 years (~2035 may up to 2050-2055)

[@Bestreducer]

Trip cost is not just a way to better future but a way to make large cities not that appealing. Large cities are a real source of stress that significantly lowers quality of life and economics growth rate that will not change by itself (we can't change human DNA as easy as lower trip cost to dirt level) so it's really important to change it before world top economics will start to collapse

[@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck]

Does “high nickel” approximate a dime? - S S Kresge

[@Bestreducer]

​@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneck im not about money. Look for gas lift killers. Chinese boys pump air into it and it can explode (with flame yea) if things go wrong. LFP will not do that, but high nickel battery can