CAVE Shoot em' Up Tier List (Just for Fun!)

CAVE Shoot em' Up Tier List (Just for Fun!). Today, I am presenting two different tier lists for shoot em' up (shmup) fans around the world, my objective-ish tier list of how I think the games in Cave shmup bullet hell library stack up to one another on the merits of gameplay, popularity, score play interest, visuals, music, and overall presentation. I also talk about the quality of the available ports of the games. This tier list is just for fun and just a way to talk about the games in a condensed manner, so try not to take it too seriously or get to salty about what I say ha. I am a massive cave fan, but I don't see myself as the official authority on the games or anything like that. KZbin trends like these tier lists are pretty dumb, but I have to admit I did have a fun time recording this ha. One day I would love to put together a more documentary style video for cave games, or to do an in-depth lecture series, so maybe this is the first step in that direction.
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#cave, #shmup, #tierlist
00:00 Yes, The Tier List Trend Got Me
03:00 The Objective-ish Tier List
31:43 The Mark MSX Personal Favs Tier List

[@selmk8240]

What we really need is a soundtrack tierlist.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

that would be really fun to do

[@justinroundy9189]

@@TheElectricUnderground I actually want this now...

[@EightOne01]

You’ll need separate lists for Manabu Namiki and Zuntata. Lol

[@franciscor390]

This would be amazing, ost are such an overlooked part of the whole genre.

[@RuV9999]

OH HELL YEA!

[@rafresendenrafresenden.1644]

"Tier List Just for Fun" sure I believe it, sure.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

You see right through me.

[@TheNerdKnownAsDavid]

I also LOVE esparade. aesthetics alone are so spot on in that game and it just feels good

[@LittleBigKid707b]

I feel the same way about Esparade. I think it's very under rated. I love the whole sci-fi futuristic premise. The sprite work is beautiful.

[@dadrising6464]

@@LittleBigKid707b same, feel a B is too low.

[@nickogden5312]

Hey Mark just wanted to let you know that you’re doing great. You got me into the genre a couple years ago and honestly if your channel wasn’t around I probably wouldn’t have stuck with the genre. You really are the face of the shmup scene man. Keep it up

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you very much for the kind comment Nick!! I'm glad my content and channel has helped you stick with the genre, I know that initial learning period can be rough!

[@franciscor390]

Truly a thing of beauty. A man on a mission.

[@jessefuterman9598]

Amen

[@Bradaran79]

It's like the brilliant rantings of a madman....luv it, keep up the good work Mark

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's a great description ha, maybe I should quote you in my "about" section of my channel (I seriously might do so).

[@sumez4369]

I think a lot of the general popularity you're crediting to OG Mushi really comes from Futari, and when people say they are inspired by Mushihimesama, they mean either the franchise in general, or Futari specifically. That old blurry "hardest video game boss ever" video has been incredibly influential in many ways, and definitely increased the general visibility of Cave shooters. Actually getting a region free port, the sequel also immediately became a lot more accessible to a lot of people.

[@rbatesmotel]

Really liked the video, especially how you split your tiering system. If I had to choose one over the other, I'd rather see the second half: your personal tier listings

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I thought it would be a good idea to include both, since it's hard to find an "objective-ish" type of list where the person tries to put their own opinions aside as much as they can.

[@nightelf5007]

I guess there's a reason why the game that's #1 I have as a poster on my wall. Good tier list, especially the top 5! Keep up the good work!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thanks yeah I think the top 5 are solid picks :-)

[@titi64230]

Excellent job, this A list at the end is so strong. There is a life to play with it . I play a lot on mushihime sama on switch this month . Really excellent, i hear the music on the end of your video . But since 2 days there is a new kid in town on my switch .... after years of waiting : Dusk . What a game ...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It looks like a cool game :-)

[@Pizzoots]

I’m glad you gave Saidaioujou the respect it deserves. A lot of ppl I know shit on that game for no reason

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah the laggy port doesn't help either. Hope we see an improved port or rom dump soon

[@kylele23]

I know this post is late but yeah I agree it gets hit with a general “ehhhhh idk” from people who never played it and I think a lot of it has to do with its inaccessibility where you either have to emulate it or shell out a lot for a 360 copy, and the 360 is no longer the definitive version which is behind the $5000 exa Arcadia paywall. DFK and Ketsui got a lot more recognition after they got a good port, so hopefully it’ll happen eventually.

[@pkkingcrimsonrequiem1332]

The real big brain Cave tierlist would have Steep Slope Sliders at S+

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha I knew this day would come XD Instant brain also S+

[@pkkingcrimsonrequiem1332]

@@TheElectricUnderground Instant Brain's legacy is to be forever memed by DDP players.

[@CrowScareify]

I love coming back to this list. The more time I put into it the more I think Ketsui is one of the best games of all time. I’m excited to dive more into the dodonpachi series when the M2 STG port comes out!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm glad to hear that! This was a fun list to discuss and talk about.

[@StarLord66X]

Cave is also my favorite Shmup developer alongside the shortlived Takumi developers. Favorite being Deathsmiles and Dodonpachi alongside Progear

[@TheElectricUnderground]

excellent taste!

[@hooksnfangs6006]

Whoa nice to see someone actually do an "objective-ish" tier list. That's so rare and refreshing and you got good reasons for every games' placement. Only questionable one is Dangun Feveron... It should just get its own tier 😂

[@TheElectricUnderground]

An age old question of shmup philosophy, where to put dangun ha

[@boghogSTG]

Lol @ Dodonpachi monogamy bit at the end there The MMP placement made me worry about Guwange but you gave it quite a bit of love, which is nice to see. Overall I'd still put Ketsui as #1 but Guwange is so damn close not because of how polished or elegant it is (it's neither, it's a beautiful mess) but because of how fun and inspired it is. So many great design decisions in that game. Like how the game long chaining & 1000+ coin mechanic work together to make optimizing stage 1 incredibly important. Or how the chaining is almost the opposite of Dodonpachi and works as bg pressure with the main challenge being actively creating/collecting coins. Or how it has several types of secrets that require you to use different game mechanics to uncover. That's not even talking about the Shiki. Though more than anything this reminded me of how many cool looking CAVE games I'm still yet to play to any decent extent. Jaimers' list truly is the most accurate one, best devs.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes for sure!!! On my personal list I put guwange really high for these reasons. Some of these design decisions aren't as universally liked but they appeal to me a lot, one of my fav shmups hands down

[@segatouringcar3738]

I think Dodonpachi Resurrection is the Godzilla of STG´s, nothing can beat him ^^. The diferents modes, the intensity, the incredible awesome cancel system, the rhythm , the ketsupachi mode... a beast! Next to Mushihime sama Steam version, my TOP S indisputable :-) Very fun video!

[@TheRestartPoint]

There's been quite a few forced-scrolling shmups that let you turn around and shoot the other way since the 80s, and in the case of things like Forgotten Worlds & Burai Fighter, in other directions too. I really like the mechanic too and wish it had become a more common thing.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I think it really opens up horizontal shmups and feels pretty intuitive and interesting

[@AyeYoYoYooo]

Was Fantasy Zone your first truly beloved shmup ?

[@reagandow850]

Very cool. You have excellent taste my friend.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Glad to hear it!

[@minimalmaster8489]

Good recap which highlights the qualities and faults (for some) of the shmup of this huge development studio which popularized the danmaku genre! Moreover, I am delighted to see that the shoot'em up genre is making a comeback with very ambitious and promising titles such as "Cygni: All Guns Blazing" (impressive) and the very original "Squadron 51" planned for the current season next year (or during the next year... traduction ?). Both watches are a pretty crazy accomplishment that pushes the boundaries of everything that has been done so far. It remains to be seen if the gameplay follows. The first (Cygni: All Guns Blazing) is going to be edited by Konami who has every intention of coming back to the race after a few difficult years, which is good news too!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I m really excited to see how these games turn out! Some really cool activity going on in the genre right now :-)

[@tonyjenkins7733]

Great video (again!) and I largely agree with all the choices. It would be useful to have a physical list of all the games and the year that they came out. Might do one myself if nobody else bothers! Alternatively, a list of the games in order that you ranked them would be useful too 😀

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah I'm going to revist this topic when I go to spain and do the documentary of all the cave cabinets, that doc will have like a built in tier list overview ha. So i'm excited for that.

[@gooberstankable]

Shmup Klaus bringin' us a present early this year!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

:-D yeah I thought this would be fun

[@nicklong27]

Mushi for Switch physical release on Limited Run Games! I'm so stoked. Hopefully this means they will do ESPG II and DFK as well :)

[@andrewbutler9533]

Awesome video Mark! I would put all Donpachis in the ''Bee' tier! 😉🐝

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha XD

[@whatamalike]

Ketsui is firmly at the very top for me, probably my overall favorite shmup ever ever!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ketsui is excellent, one of my favs too

[@nilkilnilkil]

Awesome tier list dude ... top tier tier list ...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

S tier tier list!!! :-D

[@jessefuterman9598]

Your channel changed my life as a gamer thank you so much

[@EspritFidget]

Trhoughout the years, I discovered Muchi Muchi pork is actually my favorite Cave game. It's the game I launch the most, when I just want a quick ledback shmup session. It's just really colorful, simple and fun. If it wasn't for the "sexy" charcter design, it would have been the goto family friendly, "casual" Cave shmup. That spot is actually taken by Mushihimesama, that I find a bit trickier (but I love it too obviously). Of course it's just the opinion of a casual shmup players, easily scared by the serious games like Ketsui.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Pork is really interesting! Now that it can run in final burn neo I plan to play it a lot more :-)

[@TheSamuraiGoomba]

Akai Katana, Normal Mushi, Espgaluda II, Futari and Guwange are probably my favorites. Vanilla Mushi has this really cool blend of a little bit of old-school toaplan and new-school bullet hell. I can't think of any other shmups where you can switch from Normal to Mania and change subgenres.

[@antonivi8968]

Great to see someone talking about these games opinions aside.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Absolutely!

[@streetmagik3105]

Mushihimesama physical from Limited Run starts Friday👍 Edit: just for Switch

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes that s super cool!!

[@JoshCzoski]

You mention Deathsmiles switching directions in gameplay a lot. I love Deathsmiles, but that's also one reason why Gate of Thunder is my favorite shmup (I'm struggling to get into arcade shmups right now where I'm more used to console shmups). In Gate of Thunder, not only does it involve shooting forwards and backwards (you still always point forward but directing 2/3 of your firepower forwards or backwards is a huge part of the strategy), it also involves strategizing between 3 very different weapons which are all useful for different situations.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah it seems like a pretty cool game!

[@JoshCzoski]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah man I mean, if you liked Deathsmiles for switching directions I sure can't recommend it highly enough. Rock on though. I'm enjoying this channel a lot. I'm having a challenging time accessing arcade-y shooters now.

[@MrPinpin6666]

It's funny cause I JUST picked up Akai Katana on X360 in a flea market for 25$ CDN no tax, as you said (probably priced wrong). Having a great time with it.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is really funny, $25 CND is $20.25 so it's exactly as I said ha. :-D

[@tylerbray7606]

I went to Idaho 3 years ago for a wet savers convention and although cold asfff it’s a beautiful state and the food was the bomb. Even had alligator . Pocatello is awesome as well as some of the indigenous cities with many different tribes . Didn’t know your from there . Hope to go again next year … thanks for educating us in Shmups and its lore !

[@ThatGamingGuyfromthe70s]

I think Akai Katana is very underrated. The scoring system is quite convoluted and takes a while to crack it. Once it clicked it surpassed Progear for me.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes, I had no idea where to rank katana this time around. i do know it's scoring system and gameplay are well respected, but it is hard to hell if it was successful overall (like that fact that you could buy it in normal game stores) or if it ended up being overlooked as it doesn't get talked about or seem to have as much activity as other cave games. A really tricky game to rank.

[@ThatGamingGuyfromthe70s]

@@TheElectricUnderground I always think commercially it wasn't a big seller as no one really talked about it much. It also hit the bargain bins pretty quickly. Over the years I have really come to appreciate the gameplay, it's worth spending time with especially if you enjoyed Progear.

[@perlichtman1562]

It’s been interesting working my way through the Cave games available to buy digitally. So far the M2ST ports of Ketsui Deathtiny and Dangun Feveron are my favorites. I love playing those so much. Below that would come Donpachi and Dodonpachi for PS1 (PS3 PSN) in Tate mode (I like the older pixel art) and the Live Wire Dodonpachi Resurrection Switch port. The Switch port is probably my favorite of the three, but the visual stimuli is a little more fatiguing than the other two Donpachi games I mentioned - or than Dangun Feveron and Ketsui. Edit: ProGear will probably end up in one of the top two tiers but I’ve only spent a couple hours with it so I’m not sure yet. The visuals are definitely among Cave’s very best. Then the next tier down would be Live Wire Mushihimesama on Switch. Great soundtrack on that one - I think I may like it better than any of the Donpachi games I played so far. I miss the pixel art style of the first two Donpachi games and prefer the direction they went with Ketsui as they moved in a different direction to that of Mushihimesama, but the gameplay is solid. Edit: Not sure where to place Deathsmiles I yet. I need more time with it, but I’d say the visuals rank between Mushihimesama and Esperade for me so far. Then in the second to lowest tier would be Esperade. I do like the mechanical designs in the game, but while I hoped I would warm up to the character based flying (like I quickly did in Sorcer Striker), as someone that was heavily into CGI creation around the time Esperade came out, I can’t help but have a lot more issues with the way they handled human sprites than mechanical ones. And in the lowest tier would be Guwange the X360 version. I have played through to an all clear five or six times but so far the only thing I like are the cinematics. Every time I play it, I keep thinking that I would rather be playing Pocky & Rocky. Easily my least favorite Cave game so far visually, except for some great cutscenes. But the games I don’t like as much seem to make a lot of other people happy, so there’s clearly a ton of value in them for people with different preferences.

[@theninjararar]

Death smiles 2 looks good, it looks like all the assets where made from things in a Christmas store

[@franciscor390]

lol 🤣🤣

[@philmason9653]

Ketsui's my #1, but there are so many I haven't played just because of how inaccessible they are. I have faith they'll be showing up on Switch sooner than later though.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I m surprised they never brought ket to switch tbh

[@philmason9653]

@@TheElectricUnderground They may have figured with their own limited development bandwidth that the PS4 had enough of a user-base to cover most of the people who really cared. The one that shocks me is DDP, their flagship franchise, having literally no entries from DOJ onward on PS3, PS4, PSP, Vita, or any Nintendo platform ever. Only the PS1 ports of the first two games thrown onto PSN a decade ago. Fortunately Switch versions have finally been announced.

[@daserfomalhaut9809]

Tier lists are fun for the reasons you mentioned. Making myself think a bit deeper about everythung when its all in front of me. More importantly, to develop an even criteria for as close to objective placings as possible is fun. I feel like I always am forced to learn something when making a list like this especially with friends. Even if it just comes from deeper introspection and trying to remove biases. I dont see anything wrong with it, personally.

[@stopbuyingstuff5522]

Ok I probably shouldn’t say anything but Limited run is going to print physical copies of bug princess and a cool little arcade dock for the switch on sale tomorrow. I hope it’s preorder so everyone who wants one can get one. Can’t tell you how many times I had items sell out while I’m at check out

[@SvensPron]

I can't believe this main says that Death Smiles 2 is literally the worst game of all time

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I didn't literally say that ha. I said it s my least fav because of it s graphical downgrade but it s a cave shmup so it s still way better then a lot of other shmups out there

[@futureskeletons66669]

Been playing Ibara Black Label on RetroArch and that's definitely the next Cave game I want to see re-released. Would settle for a Live Wire or City Connection at a push, but would welcome an M2

[@davidmadera009]

glad to hear that you love ESPRADE as well

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes such a cool game!

[@tapeworm6508]

Every day that SDOJ doesn't get a good port part of my soul fade. Also even though bullet hell is my favorite game, portal 2 is actually the game I recommend to people as the "best" if they ask, I don't think that most are as masochistic as those of us in bullet hell.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah it's a huge shame! I really hope we see the rom dumped soon at least.

[@zzzae]

Your personal tier list is broadly very similar to mine. Main difference is that DDP and DOJ are maybe a bit *too* brutal for me so they would be in A tier. And although I don't play it much anymore, Espgaluda 1 used to be one of my favorite shmups back in the PS2 days so I'd have to put that in S tier. My top 3 would be Mushi 1, Guwange and Deathsmiles, probably mostly for aesthetic reasons honestly - those three games are just an absolute feast for the eyes which is why I fire them up more often than Ketsui or ESPRade.

[@JohnshiBRPG]

0:58 The best S tier response to tier memes: HOW DARE YOU F-RANK IDAHO!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I know right, it's so unfair!

[@ichabodcrane6044]

Audition is unironicly a great horror film.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

For sure!

[@mishikomishiko9088]

Guwange, Pink Sweets and Muchi Muchi Pork is my personal S tier.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes, it was painful for me not to put Guwange in the top tier in the objective-ish list ha. One of my favs as well

[@headman82]

I hope Live wire makes some more ports of Cave games. I think they have done a good job so far

[@stopbuyingstuff5522]

Mark have you ever done the game paradise? It’s on sale on steam and I picked up the physical copy for Sega Saturn and PS4

[@kirkcavenaugh758]

I'm so glad to have a cave collection on switch finally

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah dfk coming soon!

[@pokekiller787x]

33:00 there's a game for the NES called Over Horizon where you can shoot backwards and forwards.

[@XantosFR]

Oh you never played Akai Katana ! Great news for you is that you have a fantastic shmup yet to discover ! "Shin" version is visually incredible as it is the only 2d cave game in 16/9 ratio, scoring system is very fun too in that version (different system in stages and against bosses). It's like a cave scoring system best of, with a chain system inspired by dodonpachi, a button that activates a second mode like in esp galuda, and a multiple gem collecting system that you need to approach like in Mushi Futari. 2nd character is the one everybody picks as it's better and more fun to play than the others. Definitely better than arcade Akai Katana and one of Cave's masterpiece to me :-).

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I m looking forward to covering it on the channel in the future :-)

[@XantosFR]

@@TheElectricUnderground That would be great ;-). Once again if you do please try the "shin" version which is so much better than the original and just makes it obsolete. It's so good it even got a nesica live version, which is crazy for what appeared to be just an arrange mode on console.

[@SuperLlama42]

Daifukattsu was definitely the shmup that introduced me to Cave when all I cared about was finding good video game soundtracks on KZbin.

[@mosesh06]

Hell yes!

[@thomaslavery2007]

Great video! Where would Deathsmiles for iOS go? I really like that version, especially the ability to collect items and get set bonuses. This version is how I discovered Cave.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I'm not a huge fan of the ios ports, but you can stick that in alongside deathsmiles :-)

[@marsmanalvarez5869]

@@TheElectricUnderground Is Gothic wa Mahou Otome (Gomaotsu) not in the tier list?

[@maxpowered7144]

Lag F, lag F, lag F, lag F, lag F, lag F...THANKS FOR WATCHING. SUPPORT MY PATERON! 🤡

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Luckily none of the cave games are particularly laggy, at least on pcb

[@Seph4096]

Both Mushi's in S tier! And SDOJ in A tier! perfectly balanced, as all things should be ;) I agree with the majority of this list.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah sdoj just needs that extra element to push it into the s tier for me :-)

[@Seph4096]

@@TheElectricUnderground I agree, it gets more flak than it deserves.

[@morsalty5228]

Lol was not expecting this one

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Never let your guard down!

[@scienceandmatter8739]

04.00 in the MORNING . Shaman of Shmup

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Though may sleep tomorrow, after watching the vid ;-)

[@mechzilla569]

But how do absolutely legendary non cave games like garegga and zeroranger stack up against some of these

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is a deep question! Much trickier list I think ha

[@EightOne01]

Ibara is basically Garegga that’s presented by Cave.

[@AKTANEARCADE]

Play Akai Katana everyone! Nice tier list Mark 👍🏾

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes I shall ha!

[@AKTANEARCADE]

@@TheElectricUnderground ❤️

[@conehair]

Looks like Mushihimesama is about to get a switch physical copy from Limited Run!

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That's really cool! I hope it sells well :-)

[@conehair]

Apparently Crimzon Clover: World EXplosion is also getting a physical copy from 1st Press Games! Just thought I'd add that in since I have seen people commenting on how they wish for a physical of both of these games on the channel.

[@payampajoohi166]

does anyone know if the upcoming deathsmiles 1+2 port has low input lag?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

we're going to have to wait and see. I would say hold off on buying until I do my review, I'm going to check into it really closely

[@comanchebolo7884]

Am I correct sdoj is not available on mame or xenia? Owning the pcb or physical xbox360 are the only ways to play it?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

No mame ROM but you can play it via xenia, it runs about as well as the 360 version

[@RewdanSprites]

Brave, Or did the score Yakuza put you up to it? 🤣🤣. Jk. I'd like to see an indie tier list of shmups you've played (because there are a ton). I'm always on the lookout for indie shmups as well. My favourites on this list are: Guwange, Espgaluda, Death Smiles 1 & Much muchi pork. Personal bias from a more casual shmupper. Some of the games are really hard to get as well 😅.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

the ddp yakuza got pretty upset with me when I was involved in uncovering the glitch and the score bounty. I wonder if they are still mad at me or not? (probably, even though the reveal of the glitch has been really healthy for the game)

[@Rkiser0592]

which then does galuda 2 have a 360 port? I am pretty sure I watched a gdq run of that game...

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes galuda 2 has a 360 port, but galuda 1 does not, but I always keep thinking that it does ha

[@eponymous3784]

I dont like tier lists generally because they're often quite lazy and annoying, but it can be a very nice and relaxed way to condense your thoughts on a large amount of media at once.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Thank you very much my dude!!! This was a fun time and yeah most tier list vids annoy me too ha. I think if they are used as more of a discussion starter they can be more fun.

[@Sepheta7]

So far Akai katana, deathsmiles and mushihimesama futari are my favorites. The level design compared to DDP series is great.

[@chasepalumbo2929]

Nice

[@thomasroehrman7587]

This video needed way more bee puns.

[@organicio]

Great list! But you forgot Steep Slope Sliders :P

[@daringspino3446]

So you are telling me you don't put DFK as SSS tier? this is outrageous. It's the best CAVE shump and you aren't gonna convince me otherwise :)

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Ha it is an excellent game!

[@robertlombardi6100]

Man everyone hates on bee storm but it's basically a sequel to the og donpach hell last time I check dodonpachi wouldn't exist without bee storm

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Bee storm is pretty cool! It's a fun time, just the overall quality of the gameplay is below cave standards so that's why it tends not to get recognized as much, it is a cool game though :-)

[@ThePageofCups]

Doesn't Tengai predate Esp ra de by a good margin?

[@broken1394]

This is life and death Shit!!!! I'm newish to the genere so i'm watching and taking notes ... I'm so close to ordering Esp ra right now. ♥️

[@TheElectricUnderground]

You can t go wrong with rade, very good game :-)

[@comanchebolo7884]

Nice job mark. I'll second the request for an Indie shmups tier list.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh wow that could be a real tricky but interesting one!

[@ravtexis]

Damn i was just about to suggest this lmao

[@SpaceDave3000]

The Deathsmiles 2/Castle Shikigami parallel made me laugh. You're not wrong, they're both awful in the looks department. My controversial hot take is putting all the Ibaras and Pink Sweets in F tier below Bee Storm, I can't stand the score and upgrade nonsense with the medal mechanics, and they look pretty bad. Big yuck.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

I think Ibara is a great looking game if it just didn t the wierd screen issues

[@J43rv1]

is there a link to this tierlist? I have no fkin clue which covers are what

[@BamdTheBamd]

s tier: doj f tier: everything else

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Brutal ha, DOJ is def S tier though

[@BASEDSAKRI]

ketsui is my favorite shmup

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Can t go wrong with ket!

[@HansAlRachid]

Currently Mushihimesama is probably my personal no. 1, followed in no particular order by Daifukkatsu, Ketsui, EspRaDe, Ibara Kuro and Mushi 2. I get that it must be irritating to succumb to the tier list trend, but rest assured that there aren't all that many KZbinrs that have made a Cave game tier list. Also, totally agree on Deathsmiles 2, god that game is fugly.

[@sorubro2193]

There is no way DDP is better than DFK, solid list regardless

[@TheElectricUnderground]

The chaining system of DDP is genius, it adds such a deep layer of gameplay to the game it's hard to communicate how interesting and cool it is to full chain the entire game and learn all the strategies involved. Also Big Bee and Hibachi are some of the best final bosses in the entire genre, Hibachi himself is so massively influential that this alone could be an arguement for DDP's legacy over something like DFK. The whole concept of the TLB and the small final boss that fills the screen with bullets comes from DDP. You could even argue that without DDP and hibachi there would be no touhou as we know it :-)

[@agent42q]

I need to find a way to play these.....

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Shmuparch :-)

[@agent42q]

@@TheElectricUnderground most that peaked my nostalgia were 360 ones, which you made a video about too. Looking into a solution today about that

[@fuchssteinert2017]

Oh yes, this was kinda fun. I mostly agree with your "objective" tier list although i would dare to say that ESP Rade is critically underrated there. But you made up for it by putting it in your personal S rank. Personally i havent played all Cave shmups, but from those i did, my list would propably look like this: S DOJ, Ketsui, Futari, SDOJ A Resurrection, Esp Rade, Esp Galuda 2, Mushi B C Deathsmiles (sorry, Mark), Akai Katana

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes Rade is such a hard game to place, it's kinda mysterious actually as far as how it impacted the genre. I really can't tell if it was recognized as ground breaking by the Japanese players at the time, or if it was looked over despite it's awesome ideas. One of the trickier shmups to rank I think.

[@fuchssteinert2017]

@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, i think you focused on the importance of these games and what kind of impact they had on the scene, right? In that perspective, it might be a bit tricky. What is amazing though is just how well this holds up today. The game is 23 years old, mindblowing.

[@GojiGuy]

Haha man I don't get the beef against Horis. I mean, I kinda get how people have a preference but for me it's always been "I like shmups" I don't really categorize Hori vs vert. Shmup is shmup! That's probably a whole roundtable discussion unto itself lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yes for sure I have an older vid on my channel where I discuss the topic, but overall I tend to say that just to meme or tease. I do like hori a lot as well but it is kinda fun to tease about them. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q6rRlWOifdyDoKM

[@EightOne01]

S tier: Titles with Joker Jun art C tier: Everything else

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that's a great point, can you list out which games he worked on?

[@EightOne01]

@@TheElectricUnderground Let’s see… (In no particular order) Guwange DoDonpachi Esprade Progear DoDonpachi Dai Ou Jou Deathsmiles I & II I think that’s about it.

[@BobBobOnYouTube]

11:09 Mendella effect? What’s that?

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Where we all think something has happened that didn't :-)

[@pat777b]

I believe a big reason you like DDP over DOJ is because you actually got a 2-all in DDP. Will you still prefer DDP over DOJ if you get a white label 2-all? I guess you need to 2-all white label to find out! I dunno, I just feel like getting a 2-all in a game would inevitably make you like it more. Dunno if it'll be enough to change relative opinions tho.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

It's a close race between the two, as I am a big fan of DOJ as well! But I still do prefer DDP because it is a bit more busted then DOJ, but in a fun way (like with the chains and boss fights)

[@fuzzbear677]

People forget about Raiden Fighters Aces jet for Xbox 360 that game is pretty pricey too I seen it for $500🕹🎮😀👍🏾

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Holy crap, that used to be much cheaper

[@fuzzbear677]

@@TheElectricUnderground eBay I seen it for $200 and some dollars $300 it's a pretty good collection it's like three games on there I know that one is going to be one of your favorite too the one I was trying to find was Raiden Fighters jet 2000 I think it's the same as one of the games on Xbox 360 collection but 2000 might be a little bit different from just yet🕹🎮😀👍🏾

[@futureskeletons66669]

Deathsmiles : Side Arms with witches.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Just looked this game up and it looks awesome! Yes I do think the ability to turn left and right is really a breakthrough for the hori genre that I wonder why hasn't become more standard?

[@futureskeletons66669]

@@TheElectricUnderground Rolling Gunner tried something similar.

[@EightOne01]

@@TheElectricUnderground Raiga: Strato Fighter uses a button to switch which way you’re facing.

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

How about a shmup dev tier list? My list would be: S - Psikyo F - whoever made Silver Surfer

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh that s a cool idea! I can feel that getting people really salty ha

[@soratheorangejuicemascot5809]

@@TheElectricUnderground I know I would, ahuehuehue

[@yayyayyyyalisa]

I agree with you that DoDonPachi DaiOuJou is the best Cave SHMPS. Akai Katana should be at level A. It is very similar to Progear but not as good. Progear is indeed a level S.

[@rahndail3863]

Would it be possible to put together a list of your favorite ways to play each of these? I hesitate to say "best" ways since I know there's some controversy on the topic, but generally I think your and my tastes are pretty similar. For example I'd imagine you'd default to Shmuparch for a lot of these, but what about some of the newer ones that have 360/PC/PS4 ports? Might be a lot to put together but I think it'd be a nice quick list to reference when a newer player wants to pick a Cave game to try and know which port/version you'd personally recommend.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That is actually a really cool idea! Yes like you say for a lot of them I'd just go with shmuparch, but all the later cave games you can't because the core doesn't support them and some of the games like Ketsui and DOJ have some really cool ports with extras that you can't get in emulation. That's a great idea!

[@nofood1]

why dont you put these games names on your description. would be good for finding your video. 👍 also I want to search some of them i never played lol

[@TheElectricUnderground]

That s a good idea!

[@nofood1]

@@TheElectricUnderground 🙏🚀

[@FreshLyte]

Dangun Feveron max speed is S tier to me.

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Oh yeah that s when the game gets really fun!

[@FreshLyte]

@@TheElectricUnderground lol I just love that game.

[@lunaria_stg]

I found the "objective" tier list to be kinda confusing, since you're ranking some games by popularity and some games by quality. For instance, Bee Storm has a cult following, certainly more than the Yagawa games. In fact, tier lists are meant to express your personal opinion, not to capture the community's. And sure enough, the subjective tier list was much more interesting and enjoyable to watch than the objective one. Also despite mentioning so many different games, KZbin thinks you're talking about Ragnarok Online lmao

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Objective-ish is key ha, yeah there is more of a general vibe in the rankings then hard and fast rules so try not to get too caught up on the criteria :-)

[@shanecorning5222]

Yes the "orig" Dodunpachi" even runs "on a tin can" yeah? .... ;-D .... .. AND it will KICK your butt hahahaha! I love it and I've only played it 3 sittings? .. xD ..... Thank You for that recommendation yes

[@shanecorning5222]

You want me DEV for PS5 then fundme a kit right LuLz .. ;-) .... Until THEN I need the 3d Raytracing rig where my videocard costs as much as the new 'Tendo , yeah hahahahahahha

[@AleksanderNevskij47]

BeeStorm was not developed by Cave.

[@BlueflagAlpha]

high score yakuza haha

[@TheElectricUnderground]

Yeah they were not messing around!

[@VanArtic]

my personal list would be something like: S: DFK, DS2, Futari, SDOJ, DOJ A: DS, Galuda, Galuda 2, MMP, PS B: Mushi, Guwange, Ibara C: the rest of them