CCP Games reports 18.8m USD loss in 2023 (EVE Online)

[@sowhat1073]

They got 1000 USD out of me and I can't play much lol.

[@Megagon10k]

those assets were not crypto currency.

[@richardmasseri8906]

I would tend to agree considering the flat numbers

[@anonydun82fgoog35]

Encouraging people to be jerks and then wondering how come no one wants to play. Well done, CCP.

[@CruentusV]

every "improvement" hilmar made designed to chase away customer NOT playing EVE Online "the right way" and suck as much profit as possible from remaining players has diminished company returns (especially since ccp's acquisition by pa). as ccp under hilmar has always lacked the creativity to recognize the full potential of EVE, it never was never able to make new original games - yet they sink a large portion of EVE's earnings into dry-hole projects which are derivative at best. all this shows how great the game was in order to last twenty years despite hilmar's heavy-handed boondoggles...

[@CrabydisTyrannos]

"has diminished company returns (especially since ccp's acquisition by pa" any proof?

[@CruentusV]

@@CrabydisTyrannos ample, if only you bother to look (which most ccp shills don't - and then once anyone spells it out for them they hide. so i'll leave it for you to prove me wrong). in most countries, accurate annual financial statements are required. ccp's earning are part of public records for pa. just take a look as they run back to date of acquisition. prior to that, ccp's records are available as a separate entity. in fact, they used to be an important aspect of EVE youtube discussions, just like this video...

[@TheControlBlue]

Meh, the real takeaway is that the EVE audience is not prosperous enough, even if everything you wanted was done the game would still make peanuts as a niche game for aging nerds. Hilmarr did everything that was asked of him with Uprising, Havoc, and now Equinox. If those efforts are not rewarded with revenues, or at least some gains to the IP, the game will be in trouble.

[@CruentusV]

@@TheControlBlue sad, just sad. predictably limited viewpoint, though. you probably even believe the majority of players are null corp, (btw: those are the only ones to whom hilmar caters his efforts)...

[@HunterHughes10]

@@TheControlBlue you’re new here aren’t you

[@TheControlBlue]

The only hope of the game is the IP. We have material here. The EVE universe could be the next Dune.

[@joemomma8287]

Eve Online would be doing a lot better if CCP Ratt didn't cause Scarcity. USTZ used be the strongest time zone and now it is a joke. Look at all the paying customers he made leave.

[@blackishpariah]

Hard to find a good ustz Corp/alliance

[@CrabydisTyrannos]

IMHO. Scarcity was required. This snowball needed to be stopped. Im mean Rorq-online was shit. This has two sides of the same coin. On one side everything was rolling in a weird direction. Prices were too low, super capitals were becoming every day toys. Gila for high tier abysses was more expensive than dreadnought. On the other side they took away a huge layer of content and huge layer of fun. I don't know why they haven't done anything for capitals in null-sec besides CRAB. Along with Scarcity they removed capital ships from space. It became unnecessary to roll WH to null-sec looking for a juicy target, bomber drops disappeared. etc etc etc.

[@richards7899]

Their is no scarcity. This is a myth created by players. I have made billions upon billions in this game since "scarcity" fact is players are risk averse and won't go out and get resources, and cry "scarcity "

[@UberPwnageGuy]

Eutz has always been the most significant timezone by far

[@DougDibrimi]

null mining was being abused by big alliances, so they destroyed the whole nullsec economy for everyone and turned null into an empty wasteland. Because nerfing mat requirements for capital ships and finding some reason you couldn't drop hundreds of them was too hard.

[@Eridanus0001]

Accounting Fun w/OZ! :) Always a good show.

[@OZeve]

Glad you enjoy it! 😊

[@MrMejIT]

In process of winning EVE. Sense of satisfaction and wonder is gone. Extensive monetization of one of the most expensive games to play is poor. Changes that don't favour indy dudes with multiple accounts may come to bite them. I will leave with 150bill sitting there doing nothing lol. Oz thanks again for your time.

[@OZeve]

Thanks for sharing! 🙏🏻

[@Ben-ts7ut]

I don't understand their new games. It's like they have no idea why Eve did well. None of what made the Eve IP successful is going to translate to a FPS.. or a 4x mobile game.. why brand it under that?

[@Jeff55369]

There are plenty of people who want the fps. You can't judge it based off it's current state because it's not anywhere close to completion. That said, developing multiple games at the same time seems a bit much for them. I've seen the 4x game, and it doesn't seem like something that will do well outside of china, but maybe that's enough for them.

[@Oridian22]

A well done EVE FPS could be fantastic, but vanguard looks like garbage, we don't need a fucking wouldbe- extraction shooter, we need what dust514 was suppose to be... They just really blow at making FPS's and should honestly just give up and stick to making eve amazing

[@fergus247]

Its not difficult to make old games profitable. If they have been in active development they should be highly polished in terms of content and UI, but also they should run well on most computers. That is not the case for EVE Online and that is why among other things its strugglening to retain and attract players. Please keep in mind when EVE Online was first launched the video game industry practically didnt exist. But in the last 20 years it has grown like 25x. But EVE Online and CCP has not. Compare this to Valve which was founded around the same time as CCP Games. Valve is now a billion dollar company, and CCP is on verge of bankruptcy.

[@TheControlBlue]

It's pretty clear you have zero idea what you are talking about. I hope they don't cater to people like you because otherwise, they are 100% guaranteed to go broke.

[@mds698]

Why they're not hiring programmers from 3rd world countries to reduce labor cost like most companies?

[@desmien679]

Easy fix, get rid of all association with Netease, remove and never try to sneak in P2W mechanics, remove the additional penalties in high sec PvP, cut off all Chinese access and only provide a server for the access on your terms, be non biased regarding bans, get back to here's a tissue there's the door policy, and stop trying to control CSM there's a reason why it was put in place.

[@locuus7]

I have the feeling the current games in development are going to be huge losses. May be problematic for EVE going forward I feel

[@VirtuelleWeltenMitKhan]

But CCP wouldn't have to make any losses if they focused on EVE Online. Of course, that wouldn't be really smart either, because after all, completely new IPS (okay, CCP's projects aren't really) bring in money. In the end they get the money to do something that will then make a profit, that's how I see it. Just leaving money lying around doesn't help either.

[@LopyHupis]

The fact that CCP lost 70mil in 2022 in insane to me.

[@OZeve]

Just a note: That was an impairment expense rather than an actual operating expense.

[@KaiserFriedlich]

Good commentary on the accounting stuff :) Enjoyed it!

[@OZeve]

Thanks! ❤️

[@john200871]

Hopefully if they go under they will sell the game as a standalone so we can start our own servers.

[@InvokeZero]

I'll be honest, the part ~18 minutes in when you were going over the operating loss and explaining how game companies make most of their money on new games vs maintaining old ones really starts to explain why Hillmar is pushing so hard to make new EVE games like D514, Valkyrie, or now Vanguard. If EVE isn't making enough money to sustain itself, or is barely covering its own costs, it really makes sense why they'd put so much effort into new games if those bring in significantly more money.

[@CrabydisTyrannos]

EVE making enough money to sustain itself, but its stagnation. any person, any company needs to grow.

[@CrabydisTyrannos]

That's what caught my eye. "Proceeds from the sale of intangible assets" is a too flat amount of 27,500,000. and last year 12,500,000. total 40mil. Could this be the investment from a16z? There was information about 40 million from a16z.

[@Jeff55369]

Good call. That does indeed add up to 40mil.

[@EbizzerHH]

Ostfriesland and Hamburg for the win! Der Norden ist oben! ⚓😊

[@OZeve]

Moin! ❤️

[@BringTheRains]

That loss makes me nervous no matter how its spun. That isn't sustainable and they will need to do something about it.

[@justsoicanfingcomment5814]

Maybe go back to subscription only. You know, reducev the bots numbers.

[@greybill]

I'd never look at these out-of-game spreadsheets by myself. But listening to the commentary and some added insight is nice. Would have totally missed the "Eve Token" otherwise. Interesting find.

[@TheMule71]

Intangible assets does not mean crypto tokens per se. It can be IP, brands, copyrights, patents, etc. Being a round number, it's unlikely it was sold on the market. It's something sold via agreement.

[@QueryTuner]

@OZ_Eve - any link to the source of the Balance Sheet for Pearl Abyss Iceland EHF PDF you used during the talk ? Grüsse aus dem schönen Hessen !

[@PlayerSalt]

don't worry a crypto game will fix up the numbers that's all the rage now! guys, guys ....... guys where are you carrying me?

[@arwo1143]

EEEEYYYYYYY EIN FRIESEEEEEEE !!!!!!!

[@OZeve]

Moin!

[@danielhalverson2742]

thanks for the show, oz. Question: I dont understand why they only count revenue from subs as its redeemed for gametime, or from plex as its spent. If they were selling hotdogs, they wouldnt wait for you to eat the hotdog before they put the cash in the register, right? I could literally give them the hotdog back and the money would still be theirs, without returning any value to me at all. Why is plex different?

[@CasualAndyGaming]

It's actually pretty much a global standard on how revenue is to be recognised. Revenue must only be recognised when the substantial costs have been incurred and the legal liability/service discharged. Buying an EVE sub is buying 12 hotdogs upfront to be delivered 1 a month. That revenue has to be apportioned out over those 12 months to match the cost of cooking a hotdogs for you every month and until you get all 12 hotdogs you can indeed request your money back if the seller fails to deliver them. Plex is the same as a store gift card, until it is redeemed it's basically an IOU for some future service/product. Hence that is why it shows as a liability in the financial statements. Hope this helps.

[@danielhalverson2742]

@@CasualAndyGaming thanks for your informative reply. With a gift card, a lot of times these are never redeemed, and the company isn't obligated to give a cash refund either. The same must be true of plex, too. Does the company then never record that revenue, notwithstanding they actually are in possession of it, and may have gotten it as pure profit since they didn't have to give anything in exchange and don't have to give the money back either? If we imagine our hypothetical hotdog vendor, who has taken payment for twelve hotdogs up front and now has to cook one every month for a year, if he needs to buy buns to keep his stand open tomorrow, he's not going to say "oh this is special money I can't spend that yet." After all if he goes out of business he can't fulfill his contractual obligations. It seems like there must be another category of I guess "future unrealized earnings" or something like that a business could borrow against. And that puts a different a spin on the idea that the revenue isn't recorded, because that can sound like the money can't be spent, where under this scenario it could be, but only at interest. Speculative, I'm not a finance guy, but that seems reasonable?

[@CasualAndyGaming]

@@danielhalverson2742 No problem, yes if you note there was an item in the financial statements labelled 'deferred income' it's a balance sheet item as opposed to a profit and loss item. It is effectively a liability showing the company has a financial liability not yet satisfied. The money received enters the bank and this is also a balance sheet item, money received is an asset so the two in principle net each other off (the company is neither in a better or worse financial position) it has the money but it has not yet met the obligation or necessarily incurred the costs to meet the obligation. There is usually no restriction on the company spending that money on day to day operating costs or other legitimate items not necessarily related to the obligation, as by law a company should never be trading insolvent and should be able to meet all it's liabilities. When they can't or think they can't that is when they must find outside sources of funding and failing to do so go into the administrative process 'Chapter 11' US appoint an official administrator in the UK. To see what can be done to rescue the company or realise as many assets for the its creditors if not. Store cards usually have an expiry date at which time the liability is released at this time any unredeemed funds will be transferred from the 'deferred income' and recognised in profit and loss revenue. Plex doesn't expire so will stay as deferred income until redeemed in game or maybe if the account it is associated with is closed. In an insolvency it is likely this liability would be released and the revenue recognised but it would be a moot point only reducing liabilities and reported losses, nothing more.

[@Kaalvoetranger]

​@@danielhalverson2742the explanation you got from Andy was pretty spot on. Simple accounting concepts can be learnt in a few days. The basic 'assets = equity + liabilities' concept will help you understand this stuff a lot. Other concepts you could also look into to better your understanding of business are accrual and reconciliation - you record EVERYTHING that happens this year in 2024. If you get to next year and and stuff isn't properly adding up you can just reconcile.

[@fergus247]

If the CSM didnt exist then the bad people at CCP couldnt white wash their responsibilities and they would be actually fired or resign and EVE Online would be in a better state and offering a much better experience for people and thus have much more revenue. When developers stop taking their game serious because they believe they will lose money, then it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

[@Inarslegend]

Вот что происходит когда нет внятной рекламы и маркетинга, и платежи за ежемесячную подписку довольно высоки

[@danjohnson2027]

I'd park R&D into a third company.

[@jk7878]

Ccp is not eve entirely so let's not link to just eve

[@gamingmatrix7644]

maybe remove gate campers maybe retain new players better. and fix the gap between new players and Old. Isk making is just terrible for long time starting off. while doing nothingg fun.

[@Oridian22]

Honestly bud, you have no idea how to play. Stop talking.

[@86Corvus]

im still waiting for the game to be fun at any point.

[@yisongyang5164]

😂 the game is a joke nowadays

[@kearseymorton2078]

Dev studios are being closed left, right and center right now, some after releasing very successful games, how long can CCP survive? the writing seems to be on the wall

[@dhn2549]

Let's not talk about that evil... xD o7

[@nilau8463]

the writing has been on the wall since 2003

[@CrabydisTyrannos]

Where i can find PA Iceland CFS?

[@jamestfishertweety8534]

Christ, i've spent $1000 bucks this year too(on top of 4, 2 year consciptions)......love the game, hate the gameplay..........lacks content for the explorer i am. My accounts expire next year in July, not sure that i'm going to invest my cash if this is the case, especially if its losing money like this.

[@Lord0fTheCheese]

Thanks for that; always a very informative show.

[@OZeve]

Glad you enjoyed it! ❤️

[@Ramladon]

I played eve for around 4 years. I lost about 10 billion ISK in a single battle back in 2012. Felt it was time to quit and never had a single urge to go back and try again. If I thought about going to another space MMO. I would probably give the newer Star Citizen a run over Eve.

[@Megagon10k]

A virtual good is an intangible asset that is traded in a virtual economy, such as in online games. Virtual goods are by definition nonphysical; their value is determined solely by what users are willing to pay for them. Plex was their 27 million

[@spamprotection9763]

Good, I hope they go out of business. I quit playing in 2023 cause Player GMs doing bias GMing and Internal Affairs just ignores you. The whole game is rigged and there is no sand in the sand box anymore.

[@then33k4]

did you lose a venture in low sec or something..?

[@blackishpariah]

Shut up dude

[@rockhudson4930]

Your wife made you do housecleaning on a regular basis or you are not getting some. Now you have no time to enjoy Eve and took ot on GMs :-)

[@then33k4]

@@rockhudson4930 maybe he alt-tabbed and lost his mining drake to belt rats while playing League of Legends