Why Are Piano Fingerings Insufficient?

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Dr. John Mortensen reviews some history of how keyboard players have approached fingerings over the last two centuries, and then discusses why people are different and why scores don't show you how to play the piano.

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[@DovidM]

I used to believe that fingerings printed in a particular sheet music edition reflect a consensus view of expert players as to how to finger a passage. A teacher I had told me that the fingerings I was using weren’t always optimal, and to try to find different fingerings. I was confused because I thought that meant finding another edition of the same work with different fingerings. What he meant was that I should work out my own fingerings.

[@estakass1482]

I used to ask my teacher to write in fingering for me until I watched one of your videos in which you stated that the student should finger his/ her own music. So I started doing that and I would only ask for fingering help when I was stuck. Leopold Godowsky is the one composer who really gives the pianist helpful fingering. Often he writes various fingering and all are very effective.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Again, it is impossible for "one size to fit all" situations. Thanks for the comment; enjoyed.

[@BjornHegstad]

I'll add to your comment on Leopold Godowsky. In writing his infamous "Studies on Chopin etudes" - monstrous etudes - he generously writes not only a set of fingering throughout each piece; he writes an alternate second solution for smaller hands as well.

[@brucehain]

It's a fascinating subject and a fascinating take by C.P.E. Bach. I was a piano major graduating in 1979, but never caught on to hand position, and hence fingering either, till I was 45 - and it wasn't as if I didn't have teachers who could play anything, and easily. Their coaching certainly helped my technique in many ways, but the revelation came when my cellist aunt was demonstrating something on the piano, sightreading, and I suddenly had this realization about how she located the right keys. It took another 20 or so years to get where I am now, and whereas I had SOME competence before, everything is so much easier now - finally I know what I'm doing. Though it's clear enough that if you don't get to that point by age six or ten you don't stand much chance as a concert pianist, or a rehearsal pianist either. I tend to agree with what C.P.E. says about there being only one way for a given passage, and whereas I used to look at the given fingerings and think they were all wrong (maybe they do that on purpose sometimes?) I'm now more open to experimenting with the knowledge I'll probably eventually find the way. Of course, all the styles are different - and a piece like the Italian Concerto - being so keybordistic - is easier to fathom figering-wise than the WTC, and of course the keys were smaller then too.

[@brucehain]

I used to have a teacher who said "never play pigeon-toed" - and although I took the basic concept seriously for years it didn't gel till age 45. The pigeon is a good example because in playing the piano the hands are in many ways wing-like. I guess the archetypal example is the nightingale fluttering away at the end of Granados's "Quejas".

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Great commentary; thanks for sharing, sounds somewhat like my history: I think we can chock it up to well meaning but incomplete pedagogy.

[@NikhilHoganShow]

Really important topic, great video.

[@benhavey4107]

Compare CPE Bach's treatise with Debussy's introduction to his own Etudes ("Let us make our own fingerings")

[@calebcauthon1117]

dancing metaphor- incredible!

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

A flowing master of metaphor-one of the most robust teaching/learning tools.

[@jorgwinter939]

Bravo! thank you for this excellent video and picking up this important subject. The Schumann example about “finger legato” is really driving home that issue. Also thanks for telling some background about H.M. Theopold… I suffered his fingerings all too often :)

[@seancregomusic]

I’ve been diving into historic fingerings now that I own a harpsichord, and at first it was because I wanted to capture the musical nuances of the Ren and Baroque eras. BUT, I soon learned that it’s just as much about the instrument itself…it’s so much easier to play my harpsichord with historic fingering (e.g. paired fingerings) than modern fingerings. Of course it applies differently to later Bach and Scarlatti than it does to Byrd and Bull, but the overall idea remains the same. And to the point that finger editing always accounts for finger legato even with the pedal…for me it was always about the attack and follow through.

[@DavidArdittiComposer]

Sometimes composers write what you do rather than what the result should be. You see this often in Schubert and Chopin etc. figurations with staccato and phrase markings that are not expressed audibly, because of use of the pedal; rather they are instructions for how to use the hand.

[@jorgwinter939]

I think this topic deserves more videos like this. Are you planning to expand on it ?

[@maxjohn6012]

Thank you for this, it was fascinating. I appreciate why, in context, you stopped reading CPE Bach when you did, but I wanted you to carry on! It might be outside the scope of your channel, but I'd love to see an explanation of the fingering method he goes on to expound!

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Yeah, but I suspect JM thinks that the younger Bach is not the last word.

[@LApianoplace]

I think the finger legato creates a difference in the speed at which the RH upper and LH lower are hit. Which in turn, changes volume. On today's piano-forte voice the outer notes louder.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Yeah, because if you have to hold one note while playing others, it creates that split second lag causing getting to the new position slightly slower; seems like it has to do with what is going on in both hands. Good detail observation.

[@LApianoplace]

@DavidMiller-bp7et as I thought about it, Dr. Mortensen's makes clear everything changes from the instrument evolving, to the size and hand shape and all that behind . Great information and instructions ☆☆☆☆☆

[@LApianoplace]

@@DavidMiller-bp7et somaybe pedeling would beneficial

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

I started doing my own fingerings for the reasons John cites. Who I am and what my hands and other parts are is unique, snowflake design. I questioned the fingerings I saw in many published versions. It produced a lot of doubt within me-not a good thing in any venue-split focus and conviction. I figured if this was Brubeck's arrangement, he must know the best way to finger it and that was what I was seeing. Not so. Some of the editors do not have a good grasp of fingering. Should I persist with this awkward, for me, scenario or do I have the "right" to change it. I don't have Brubeck's hands or his anything else of his uniqueness for that matter. So, one size does not fit all and it is so freeing to hear John tell it like it is. I thought, if I have to play those inventions like that, I probably can't do it and it was discouraging. I've come to sense that there is a well of commonalities that good players use but what makes the greats interesting is that they are all different in approaches and that is what makes for compelling artistry, uniqueness, not conformity. I take great care to get my own fingering choices done very early; there will always be need to change some fingerings, the fewer the better because they have to be overwritten in muscle memory which takes about 5 times longer than getting it right at first blush. There is need to change at speed and interpretive turns of phrase. Slowly learn and practice, the Rachmaninoff and Perelman method, allows things one can't do at higher tempi. So, I have developed my own system of learning groups, fingerings and moves. This takes a long time and no one reaches perfection but the better I can get it right the first time, the happier piano camper I am. Not nearly enough attention is given to individual hand and body physiognomy, personality, character and temperament. Thank you, Prophet John, for this freedom. What matters is the final result, performing something according to one's vision of the piece, for example, not how the composer wanted it exactly but how this piece, with the respect I give the composer/arranger to undertake to learn their piece for whatever reasons of appeal. How can I make so in so's piece real for me, entertaining and engaging for others? In any case, according to how one envisions the piece and its character. Better fingerings help to untold degrees so that should be a big consideration. Agree completely about finger legato. My musical academy training as a vocalist stressed the legato tone. When I tried to do it on piano for a couple years, I was destined to be disappointed because the piano is not a legato instrument; it has other strengths but that is one of the weakest features. What a blessing invention the pedal was; so freeing and makes it so much easier to move and and all fingers around at the right times and still get a legato-connected- feel without going crazy with awkward appearance, sound and feel. Agree completely with his assessment of why this teaching persists. Like many piano myths, teachers are teaching what they were taught, right or Wrong, best practices or inefficient roadblock; I had many of these teachers and they all sported very glowing resumes. Wonderful topic and unpacking of it.

[@superblondeDotOrg]

What do you do when you get the piano-nazi type of professor who demands using her written fingerings?

[@SirWhiteRabbit-gr5so]

Baroque fingerings primarily used the primary fingers, and occasionally the thumb and less-so the pinkie ...so they rarely played an octave or twelfth. That evolved in the Romantic period.

[@MattScottMusic]

Estonian composer Elo Masing has written a PhD on composing using Laban Dance technique rather than traditional music notation, which seems pertinent. I saw her present it at an architecture event in London but I am afraid that’s all the leads I have!

[@PAULENDERS-u8o]

very interesting thanks for sharing! highlight however was the disco move

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Always powerful and often entertaining analogies. It's what makes the best teachers.

[@ezandman6804]

10:29 Double the voices... Salieri: "Identical? You go to fast. I do not understand." mozart: "It goes with the harmony!" 😃🤣

[@nandoflorestan]

I would love a video about examples of different fingerings on the same passage. On a few passages. I have ruined entire pieces by thinking I am smarter and picking my own fingering. Years later I still haven’t conquered the hard bits…

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Yeah, it's a lifetime of learning and no exactly perfect way to finger that suits all people. This would be a great demo, probably the next step in this direction.

[@gabatar5961]

Thank you! delightful lecture.

[@ScruffyTubbles]

Often fingerings only come together at the last after you've learnt the piece and you have to constantly change them as you learn the piece (they are that individual).

[@DJazium]

Great lesson!

[@elliot2294]

Great video, very informative. What do you mean by grouping? Do you mean finding the phrases and places where the hand might stay in a small range for a few bars where there would be no crossing of the hand? Or is it something else entirely?

[@MasterRancisis]

Check out some of his other videos where he talks about 'grouping and surfacing', part of the 'four pillars of piano technique'. They're golden

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

John is the Prophet, I'm an acolyte but yes, mostly. I learned this from a bunch of teaching input and my own experimentation. I consider a group to be a gaggle of musical notation where I don't, and shouldn't move my hand, to get to the next note; I can play group without moving my hand, use common fingers from chord/note to chord/note. He even features a lesson where he suggests that the music get analyzed and marked, with a comma or something, to mark a change of hand position. Not just twiddling within a position but actually picking the hand and moving to the next group position, done with forearm lateral movement, no matter how small, rather than finger stretching and wrist twisting. I have done a great deal of improvement here but find small niches where I need to use different fingers so I don't move as much. Crossing hands is obviously changing position in the most dramatic way possible. A few bars is possible but yes, perhaps, usually one has to move sooner, especially with more advanced pieces. Moving more and faster. That's my diatribe, but John is a monster authority, practical, yet flexible. Esp re: hand and body physiognomy, a very neglected topic.

[@elliot2294]

@@DavidMiller-bp7et Very informative reply, thank you.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Absolutely. He covers this in detail.@@MasterRancisis

[@superblondeDotOrg]

This is also why all guitar instruction must include tablature. Placement of the phrases on the neck is supremely important when there are 24 frets (2 octaves) on each string. Those who argue against guitar tablature are putting the priority on their own ego not prioritizing the music or the instruction.

[@Jellzorro]

It's why we have fingering and string notation, tablature is not at all required and only leads to an information overload.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Sounds plausible.

[@karlrovey]

Another example of provided fingerings are the Dupre organ editions of various composers (including Bach). They were considered revolutionary scholarship at the time and the standard for how you needed to play Bach (which was fine if you were playing a Cavaille-Coll organ). Now, we know that his provided fingerings are a terrible way to play Bach.

[@km6206]

'unless you're Thelonious Monk' haha!

[@amandajstar]

C. P. E. does say 'the true method' (which he doesn't then delimit). So it's possible that the 'true method' can and did accommodate different hand sizes and types, isn't it?

[@markcbeaumont4670]

Finger legato is not irrelevant with pedalling but it is not as crucial if the sound is desired

[@thekeyoflifepiano]

The fingering at 18:33 could be 5 1 2 5 2 5 etc. I think that would work well.

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

Merci since I just started practicing the Rule of the Octave this week. Should I write down the fingerings for this, or is it better to let it be revealed?

[@maxjohn6012]

I'm guessing and speculating, but I would think that writing down the fingering might help you think more clearly about what works - it doesn't have to be something you stick to (you can change it later as you continue to think about it!)

[@superblondeDotOrg]

No dont write down the RO fingerings because rule of the octave is not actually played through in music, it is just for brief harmonizations. Write down your own fingerings for your musical pieces, not for the exercises. Context in the actual music determines fingerings is what he is saying, not fingerings on exercises.

[@DavidMiller-bp7et]

Yeah, right on. That's what I do.@@maxjohn6012

[@TonyZ492]

I disagree that’s tell me your lack of knowledge, fingering is essential for certain passages

[@fisheatsyourhead]

Well spoken Fingerings are just a guide at best, there is no such thing as a one size fits all. as a man with relatively smaller hands (I can play a ninth but anything beyond is difficult) I see fingerings online and in books designed by those with larger hands who probably didn't stop to think how others would find frustration in seeing what is proportedly a guide that is impossible for them to do properly. Another reason why feedback from someone experienced in teaching is vital.