Cereal Mashing: How To Gelatinize Rice for Brewing

[@BenG123]

Appreciate the time you guys took to make the video, research, etc. When I use raw adjuncts like corn, I watch what the distillers do. They add boiling water to the adjunct, let it gelatinize, let it cool to 154 or so over an hour, then mash in the grains. I've done this with raw corn and it works out well. I assume it would work for rice too, then your temperatures are not up and down, just one direction. Also much less risk of scorching. Can also use enzymes.

[@rfox2014]

You’re right, it’s hard to find cereal mash videos. I’m planning to do a rice lager next and this is helpful.

[@lazyplumber1616]

You are the OG of brewing, been watching for a long time! Keep it up, you know your shit!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Ha. OG!

[@jauld360]

There are a videos on rice beer, where they boil or pressure cook the rice prior to adding it to a mash. At 9:00 you mention adding malt with the rice, which is not done in the videos below. The processes are different, but I don't know if it affects the end result. I suspect not, but it's just a guess. DrHans: Rice beer, brewday, tasting and recipe! basicbrewing: Instant Pot Rice Pilsner - Basic Brewing Video - May 4, 2018

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

That’s part of the issue with doing something for the first time and trying to learn from multiple sources; they don’t all agree on how it’s done. However, my bet was on those with brewing chemistry knowledge that have written authoritative books/articles on the topic over the years including John Palmer and Ashton Lewis. Simply boiling rice or other adjuncts isn’t “mashing” at all, so if the term “cereal mash” means anything, it would imply a mash involved.

[@jauld360]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY The experts are correct, boiling is not mashing. But conversion takes place when adding gelatinised rice to a malt mash. That's why I suspect that both routes produce a similar result with an appropriate mash schedule and time. I also noticed some Asian rice beer recipes where they add yeast to boiled rice and let that ferment. That's stranger, since there is no obvious conversion process and yeast is not able to process longer chain sugars. I suspect that a lot of the starch is not converted in this process. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4q5d6aKjtynh5o

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@jauld360 I think so too. I think the mashing method in this video does a much better job than simple boiling. I got way more sugar out of the cereal mash than I expected for a much higher OG than designed. I suppose it may be similar to the differences in mash efficiency due to different mashing and lautering methods. None is wrong, but some are more efficient than others.

[@jasonlahti7211]

Ever the pioneer, Larry! Thanks for the video. The one and only time I have ever seen this explained well was via John Palmer's How to Brew.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Yes. His book explains the basics, but it also has some conflicting information making it uncertain as to the right procedure.

[@jasonlahti7211]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY looks like you nailed it, though!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@jasonlahti7211 I think so. I extracted WAY more sugar than I designed, so I think it was a very efficient double mash process.

[@alkjhsdfg]

Good for you for experimenting with rice! We use a lot of rice in our brewery and it's great, more homebrewers should learn about it. The gelatinization ranges you cited for rice are variety-dependent. Short-grain rices will gelatinize at the lower end, long-grain rices at the higher end. Looks like you had some long-grain rice, so the initial rest at 160F wouldn't do much, and the malt enzymes get wasted. You can go straight to boiling the rice (no malt required), then pitch it into your cool mash water, heat everything to temp, and add the malt. That'll save you a good 30-45 min on your brew day. Cheers!

[@gordiefrench5342]

Hi Larry Thank you for all your insightful videos I am a better home brewer because of your great teaching

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

You’re welcome! Glad my vids have been helpful to you.

[@HOMEBREW4LIFE]

Have a pint on me Larry, cheers!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Ha. Will do.

[@tobyhoch7014]

Hey Larry, thanks for your video. I am looking to use rice as an adjunct in a brew instead of sugar.

[@beeroquoisnation]

Great vidya Larry. I was always told we can only learn from leaving areas where complacency resides. I seldom leave the area where complacency resides, but always keep my eye peeled for the moment complacency reveals itself. Cheers buddy. Looking forward to the finale on this one.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Yep. Been getting bored again doing the same old same old over and over again. It was time to try something that I’ve been meaning to do for twenty years.

[@ryanholland9348]

Nice video Larry. I've experimented with rice a few times, but this looks way better than the way I've been doing it. Thanks for documenting it.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Thanks. What was your way?

[@ryanholland9348]

We buy jasmine rice in 25lb bags at my house, and cook it in a dedicated rice cooker appliance. So I double crushed that rice, cooked it in batches, and added it to the mash. It was a giant mess and doing 4 batches in a small cooker was for the birds. I'll run a side burner in my old brew pot and do it your way from now on.

[@frankdilorenzo790]

I did a small one gallon batch of rice as a test. I cooked the rice as I would to eat it first. Then I added it to the water to gelatinize it and used a stick blender on it to break it up. It ended up the consistency of grits

[@themechanicslab]

seems like scientifically you have done this process the best possible way it could of been executed. I'm really interested to see how your fermentations carries out and ultimately your end product. If your end product comes out as expected I will definately use this method for a recipie exactly like this as its the best way Ive seen it performed. Well done. Please keep us updated.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I too am looking forward to the end product in a couple more weeks. Will have a follow up on it here.

[@tmarkk99]

Worth trying at least once! Thanks for showing the process. I have been wondering how to do a cereal mash. But thought it was more like 120deg F. I was surprised.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

The lower temperature you mention could be for other unmalted grains; e.g. oats.

[@TheApartmentBrewer]

Only done it once in that video you mentioned. Good on you for diving deep into the details on this process! It's definitely a useful technique to know, but I would pretty much always choose the flaked versions of these adjuncts instead if the price is reasonable - but it sure sounds like it wasn't!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

It definitely extended my brew day by over an hour which made a great excuse to drink more beer, but it was a long day. Not sure if I want to do it again either.

[@BeerWineandShine]

Its really not that bad once you get good at it, and learn tricks like using liquid high temp amylase. But yes, at first it is challenging, and almost always do something wrong, or at least not correct for efficiency. Lol. Good job for stepping out of your wheelhouse.

[@glajeunesse]

Yes! I've been looking forward to this! I hope you'll explain how you fermented it in your next video! I want to make this beer. Cheers! 🍻

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I plan to cover the recipe when I’ve had a chance to try it in a couple weeks.

[@davidpinnington213]

Hey there from UK. - great timing as I’ve been brewing a beers with corn adjaunct as I can’t get decent malt liquor here but been meaning to try a BudRicer beer

[@gregwisinski7870]

I have been adding instant rice to my mash to lighten the body, 14oz box of rice to 6# of pilsner malt.. The price is right too.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Even minute rice near me was twice the cost of regular rice.

[@perrymattes4285]

Thanks Larry that was a great vid. I’m going to try this next time since I can’t get it at the local brew shop. I live in a small city I just did a batch of pillzer malt and some flaked corn. With voss kvike Under 12 psi. All went well hoping good 👍🏼 things from this batch. Keep up the great videos. I learn every time new things from you.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

It is certainly another trick to keep in the back pocket in case you need it. Hope the beer turns out well.

[@BeerWineandShine]

We do this all the time in the Distilling community. For all the info look there. To gelatinase grains. Bring water to 200°, stir in your grains, cook at 195° for 90 min. The use of high temp amylase will break down the starches to keep from being so think. After 90 min, chill down to 160, stir in all your barley. Target is 155 after barley additions. Let rest for 90 min for conversion. The rest is exactly the same as for beer.

[@beerme_2]

Very interesting process.. hope all is well. Stay safe!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Thank you. Ditto!

[@januszkszczotek8587]

For reference: the mentioned video by TheApparmentBrewer seems to be "EASIER than Pale Lager: Brewing a CREAM ALE with KVEIK Yeast"

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Yes. And that’s one reason why I missed it initially. Wasn’t obvious from the title.

[@1TheLord1]

Thanks Larry. Good to see it done. BTW, did you hit your numbers? Curious if you got the fermentables you calculated you would get with the rice.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I’d have to go back and look at the numbers, but my spreadsheet indicated a 90+% mash efficiency even with adding water to account for uncounted for additional losses in absorption and evaporation from the cereal mash. Something isn’t right though. I assume my assumption for PPG of rice was too low. I have a much higher OG than expected.

[@1TheLord1]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY maybe it's like decoction. You get a bunch of unfermemtable sugars in decoction that end up showing on OG. Well be interesting to see if FG ends up higher. Thanks for the answer

[@williambellavance8784]

Pretty cool, how did your gravity turn out? Did you hit your expected OG? Does your spreadsheet calculate the expected OG from the rice? Missed your videos and glad to see a new one here with a topic not really talked about. Thanks again for performing this and sharing. Hope you do a follow up video on the tasting of this beer.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I way exceeded my target OG even after adding water later on to make up for losses from the cereal mash process. This sort of thing makes me want to do some trials with rice done various ways (cereal mashed, simple boil, crushed vs whole, instant) to see what sugar extraction there are from them all since there are so many different opinions on which to use.

[@williambellavance8784]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY hopefully you record the process. Thanks again for what you do.

[@ussmak2902]

Is that a paintball gun in the back on the wall? Good stuff as always Larry!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Thanks! I think you’re referring to my Su-V Gun; a blow torch for sous vide searing and grill starting.

[@ussmak2902]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY No I have to find that vid and watch it to see it in action!

[@qh4007]

Thanks Larry awesome person to person

[@rockspider692]

Hi Larry. I did a feral mash before and came out great. Why did you use brown rice? Does it have a lower gelatinized temp?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

My initial recipe called for flaked rice (which happens to be brown) sold by Briess, so I looked into why and discovered that brown rice is favorable for brewing over white.

[@nicholassmaira9101]

I'm curious if your OG was higher than you anticipated? Last time I did a cereal mash with rice I overshoot my recipe OG by a lot (estimated 1.055 using flaked rice in BeerSmith and ended up 1.071).

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Oh yes. By a lot.

[@ForgetU]

Did you taste the cereal once cooked (lick the spoon?)... After adding the cooked rice, what temp did your room temp water get to?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Never tasted it. The porridge was too hot. I think it was around 105-110 deg when combined with 70 deg water and grains.

[@ForgetU]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY That was a nice experiment. Would it mater brown vs white rice and how much rice hulls did you use?

[@superiordirk]

Liked and subscribed because I need to know how this turns out! The flaked rice is more expensive, but hopefully the cereal mash tastes better? Hope it doesn't end up being a play-dough pilsner 😬

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Welcome! I, too, am looking forward to the finished beer. No play dough please! Lol

[@liviodasilva9799]

I will probably spend 20$ but definitely it’s a good experience for at least one time. Good job

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

It’s really great to at least learn how to do new things even though it’s easier to buy the finished product. Not sure if I’ll do this again, but possibly will since Japanese rice lager is on my to-brew list.

[@jcinsaniac]

THIS IS WHY I LOVE YOUR STUFF! Did you guys make a 5 gallon batch or what? Can't wait to see the tasting. I wonder what the maltsters do to turn it into the "flakes" we cheaters buy at the brewshop? (In other words, would it be possible to make your own flaked rice or wheat or rye? Go to SAMS Club and get 25 lbs of rice and make a bunch of flaked rice for later use?)

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Ten gallon batch. I suppose it’s possible but probably messy and more difficult to do at home. You parboil then flatten them from what I can tell. I thinks it’s just easier to do it the way shown here.

[@beerandbbqhobbyist6464]

Does it matter if you use white rice vs brown rice?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Only slight from what I understand. Supposed flavor, nutrient, and extract efficiency differences. Some people may not notice the differences though. Would be a good experiment to see.

[@beerandbbqhobbyist6464]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY 🤔 you used brown rice right?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@beerandbbqhobbyist6464 yes

[@beerandbbqhobbyist6464]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY from what I’ve read Budweiser uses rice syrup in there tranyfluid. Would make sense in a big production facility like theirs. On Amazon though it’s almost 100 dollars a gallon and it was brown rice syrup but perhaps being so concentrated you wouldn’t need much at all.

[@eroclasting7062]

man, im confused. Why did you have to boil? if rice gels at approx 15 after 20 minutes whats with the boil? and the boil occurs after you add the malted barley, doesnt that kill of the enzymes, defeating the purpose of starch to sugar?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Good question. I had the same question when researching the topic. It turns out that the barley and its enzymes are added to the rice mixture to help loosen the mash to prevent scorching it. It's a mash ingredient (with the rice) which is why it's held at a mash temperature for 20 minutes first. I mentioned this at the 10:49 mark. Then it's raised in temperature to burst the grains and expose the starches.

[@eroclasting7062]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY Thanks for the quick reply!! im very new to brewing/distilling (my final goal).. however im not new to researching. The challenge for me on a rice mash/wort is the Saccharification. Apparently, the rice starch is different than corn/wheat etc. I was not able to achieve a very good conversion using alfa amylase enzyme powder. (I do not want to use any other grains, via purely gluten free) im going to try again, I think i may have had a problem with PH, but i did not measure until 3 days into the fermentation (the fermentation appeared to go well.. bubble bubble bubble. but ph was very low..around 3. Also, ive read more and I see some recommendation to use gluco-amylase as well as alfa? do you know anything about that? thanks!!!!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@eroclasting7062 I do not. Never used it. Sorry.

[@jmsfabrication7821]

Is there a reason you didn't just use plain white rice?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I wanted to replace the typical store bought flaked rice (which is brown) in my recipe with a homemade version, so I wanted to stay like for like.

[@thegeezertour116]

What's with the Ole Miss shirt on your assistant?

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

lol. Not sure. Would have to ask Clay.

[@JaDeDBrewing]

Hey The Geezer Tour! Haha great question! That was an unspoken shoutout to a friend of mine that used to live near me, then moved to Mississippi and sent me that shirt in the mail.

[@netanelbelgazal753]

I just wonder how much propane did you use in this process? :)

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Good question. I never weighed it to find out. Not much. Would be less than for a regular mash or boil off the main wort.

[@netanelbelgazal753]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY just a hand wave calculation. Let’s assume you use 1/5 tank. So it is 4# of propane ~1gallon and another 5$ for the process :)

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@netanelbelgazal753Good guess, But that wouldn’t be ONLY for the cereal mash though. A fraction of that would have also been used to heat that same proportion of water and grain if it were a part of the main anyway, so it’s not all extra energy used. The addition energy consumed solely for the cereal mash would only be the half hour long boil.

[@netanelbelgazal753]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY Fair point. Anyway, it was a really nice experiment and good content. Thanks for that. Personally next time I would just buy it flaked rice. Morebeer for example sales it for less than 2$/lb.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@netanelbelgazal753 Yes. Definitely. Next time, I’ll plan ahead and order several pounds of flaked rice online.

[@therusticcollectionebaysto7028]

New sub ! Liked 🙏😃😊😀

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Excellent! Welcome aboard!

[@Progfan2010]

I do it just like that, except that I don't crush the rice since it has no hulls, and I pour it inside the barley mash even if it started mashing already. Temperature rises but it's nothing that will provoke any noticeable effect. Also, boiling softly for 15-20 minutes is enough. In my experience, it's wirth it 100%. It gives you more clarity and specially, will let hops shine brighter do to providing a lighter body. Saving a few Dlls is irrelevant at this level in my opinion.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Thanks for the feedback. Without crushing and cereal mashing first, I wonder how efficient your sugar extraction is from the rice. Have you done any experiments and or experiments on the rice contribution of sugars?

[@philcross6037]

Will give this a go but the price of the flaked rice is roughly twice the price as grain in the UK. I don't think I would bother if I had to do all that prep. By the way, thanks for putting the real measurements in metric on the screen as well as imperial, being from the UK it confuses me no end especially as your US Gallons weren't the same as UK imperial Gallon and the UK only use Deg F for hot weather and Deg C for cold and everything else!! We are a bit strange like that as we always use Kg for weight unless it's someone's weight then its Stone and pounds!

[@tobyhoch7014]

The price of 1 kilo of low priced rice is 1/4 the price of malted barley. I thought adding 1kg of rice to the grist would be a way to cheapen the ingredients but still acceptable quality. In America they have a name for this calling the product a "malt liquor". I noticed Larry was using rice hulls though. I have never used rice before so I can't comment based on my own experiences. I wonder what the benefits are for using cooked rice versus plain sugar adjunct.

[@jonthebeau4653]

I use great value instant rice instead of overpriced flaked rice it's about $8 for 5.25 pounds. Instant rice is pre-gelatanized like flakes are and it's always worked great for me without the need for a cereal mash.

[@riskyb250]

You can just cook rice like normal. 2 cups of water and 1 cup rice. Bring water to boil. Add rice. Stir. Put lid on. Cook on very low heat 20-30 min or until done. Then just add that to the mash. You don't have to go through all these steps

[@MrKenward777]

I’ve been doing it wrong all these years hahah I just put cooked rice in the mash……. Whoops,

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

It’s not necessarily wrong. It’s just that you should get better results by performing the gelatinization rest step before the boil. Otherwise, I suppose that you’re only getting partial gelatinization as the rice temperature passing through that range while heating to a boil.

[@MrKenward777]

Thanks Larry! I’m glad you brought yet another technique to light. I’ll be trying this next time I brew a rice adjunct beer!

[@HomeBrewingTV]

Save yourself the time and money, just buy a case of bud light and add a pickle to it! 😂

[@dennisschickling2249]

lol 😆 🤣 😂 Bud SUCKS.

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

Detro!!!

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

@@dennisschickling2249 Ha. He’s referring to an inside joke he tells in one of our collaboration videos.

[@djscottdog1]

Home brew shops take the piss by direct from maltings

[@BEERNBBQBYLARRY]

I usually buy my ingredients from one of the local home brew shops in my area to support them despite the higher prices, but $4.50 for a pound of rice?uhuh.

[@djscottdog1]

@@BEERNBBQBYLARRY the one in Edinburgh shut down but they were £2 a kg and i get it from the maltings for £0.80 a kg.

[@patrickreedy1176]

Damn , Let the other dude explain .