Top 5 Film Noir With Max Allan Collins

[@orlanca758]

“The postman always rings twice” I always see myself drawn to this movie. Love Garfield and Turner never looked better.

[@old78s53]

I'm glad I found Cereal at Midnight because of these kind of videos. Shocked The Asphalt Jungle wasn't on either list. Five favorites of mine that were not mentioned on either list would be The Asphalt Jungle, The Prowler, Too Late For Tears(love Lisabeth Scott), In A Lonely Place, and Try And Get Me.

[@8176morgan]

I would have to disagree with you with "Too Later For Tears". I thought that it was a terrible movie. Too each his own I guess. My favorites Lizabeth Scott movie would be "The Strange Love of Martha Ivers". A great one to see if you haven't seen it already.

[@12stringblues]

Great video! My personal favorites : Detour (1945) - He Walked by Night (1948) - Thieves' Highway (1949) - The Prowler (1951) - Act of Violence (1949). Of course there are too many to mention and I love all the more popular noirs but I find these to be less talked about gems! Thanks

[@christophermosca4547]

I love classic cinema and looking back Heath . You guys really did an excellent job in discussing some classic noir . It’s certainly whet my appetite. I enjoy tv and cinema and have no qualms about watching older stuff . It’s probably in part from being passionate about history , and tv/cinema but also my parents influence. They got me into older films. Add to that , growing up pre cable , a lot of the programming on the major networks and UHF channels showcased older cinema . It’s kind surprising to see there isn’t a greater interest in these films . Silent films are amazing - it really is an interesting, and different world . Just cinematography and use of sets , lighting , light and shade , along with what the actors , script and director bring to the table . I’ve gotten a very small sample size of Noir recently …… your discussion has me interested in more !!

[@christophermosca4547]

The thought of “that’s too old to be enjoyable or relevant” I think is also permiating the comic book industry. Older eras seem somewhat forgotten now and poo-pop’s; needed story telling ideas such as continuity are looked upon with jaundiced eye , etc ….. yet these things helped build the industry into what we knew and loved . Without these things you wouldn’t have comic books . Similar in many respects to older cinema being “shunned “ (for lack of a better or less exaggerated word.)

[@daveandreahoward8203]

I'd love some more Westlake talk. That guy was amazing and needs more light shone on his body of work.

[@tetrapharmakos8868]

Agreed! The only author I love more is Richard Stark. If only those two could have collaborated!

[@hawkspeak8592]

Great discussion to be part of my morning coffee, and I had a great time arguing back and forth with you guys, ( all five of my personalities argued as well) was a real pleasure. Loved it, thanks.

[@steveabel7066]

Great conversation, Heath, so much fun! I'd really have to rack my brains (and/or rewatch a bunch of movies) to come up with a top five, so I think I'll offer an alternative top five: 1. Must-see directors who didn't have any movies on your lists: Robert Siodmak and Anthony Mann. (I probably like Mann's noirs even better than his more celebrated westerns.) 2. Slightly under-the-radar noir leading men actors who are fantastic in the "genre": Dana Andrews, John Payne, and Richard Conte. Don't know if Richard Widmark could be considered under the radar, but he was also pretty great. 3. In no particular order, some favorite noir actresses who are not Barbara Stanwyck, Ava Gardner, Lauren Bacall, or Lisabeth Scott (all fantastic): Audrey Totter, Claire Trevor, Gloria Grahame, Marie Windsor. I'm sure I'm leaving out some other favorites! 4. Double Indemnity. You guys kept working around this one, but it's a seminal noir and definitely in my top five -- in the proper mood, maybe even my number one. As another commenter above pointed out, the "love story" is in the MacMurray-Robinson relationship, and I think that gives the movie some real heart. 5. A few essential color noirs: Leave Her to Heaven, Desert Fury, and of course Vertigo. Would be fantastic if you guys did another top five on color and/or neo-noirs! Or even just your numbers 10 through 6 picks! Love you, Heath, keep it up!

[@kroman6083]

Here's one of my favorites: Nightfall (1956), directed by Jacques Tourneur. Starring Aldo Ray, Anne Bancroft and Brian Keith. Short and moves quick but still has room for great characterizations. Almost feels like proto- Elmore Leonard.

[@willieluncheonette5843]

great noir. I reviewed it.

[@devonbrooks246]

Thanks for the recommendations. A few of these I watched and plenty I need to watch. Will you and Max do a Top 5 Westerns?

[@OuterGalaxyLounge]

I appreciate Max's shout out to "The Postman Always Rings Twice." It has to be the sexiest movie ever made with people wearing suits and furs. I have to think that, being so glamorous and coming from MGM, it must have seemed shockingly sleazy for audiences at the time. Great and underrated film.

[@markselsor6048]

Noticed only one comment mentioning 'Scarlet Street' (produced & directed by Fritz Lang). Am surprised there is not more acclaim for this film noir masterpiece. Fritz Lang was the first film maker to feature a serial killer ("M" 1931). Scarlet Street (1945) is his greatest work. A google search gives an interesting look at a great talent. Highly recommend S.S. to all - it is truly great. Thanks to Midnight Cereal - May your channel thrive !

[@stevemoody13]

Thanks for this. I love these conversations.

[@daveac]

Enjoyed that especially with Max giving those extra insights. There are a few other movies that spring to mind but I'll just mention one B&W one I would have included - 'The Stranger' (1946) Directed and co-written by Orson Welles. Starring Edward G. Robinson, Loretta Young & Orson Welles. As to 'colour movies' that are Film Noir - then how about two Gene Tierney movies from the proceeding years Laura (1944) with Dana Andrews, Clifton Webb & Vincent Price - and then Leave Her to Heaven with (again) Vincent Price, Cornel Wilde and Jeanne Crain. Thanks guys!

[@CerealAtMidnight]

I love The Stranger. Isn't Laura in black and white?

[@daveac]

@AtMidnight Indeed - sorry, yes you are right! When I checked on wiki - it showed a colour poster but as you say the film itself is B&W

[@doktorgoulfinger]

I grew up in Burlingame, about 20 minutes down the coast from San Francisco Bogart mentions Burlingame at one point - and every time, I levitate a few inches off the cushion. Another great conversation!

[@Joe_Baeza]

Such a fun discussion between two very knowledgeable cinephiles and historians, Heath. I found that I shared more of your choices than Max’s. I especially loved your choice of GUN CRAZY, which is probably my favorite noir along with THE SET-UP and KISS ME DEADLY. Would love to see more of these types of discussions and rankings series with your guests covering classic horror, sci-fi, serials, etc. Great stuff!

[@TimW-tq2ko]

My top five are: 1. Double Indemnity, 2. The Maltese Falcon, 3. The Big Heat, 4. Scarlet Street, 5. Gun Crazy. One lesser known one I like a lot is Thieves' Highway. Heath, have you seen Orson Welles' lone horror movie? It's Necromancy from 1972. It's not a good movie but I like it since Pamela Franklin is in it.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

I have not seen Necromancy. Looks like it's a Bert I. Gordon movie!

[@TokuAndAnimationNewsNetwork]

I have been waiting forever to see Thieves' Highway. It and Narrow Margin are the last movies i need to complete the LA Noire film list.

[@damianp564]

I could listen to this chat all day. The Set-Up just happened to be in my to re-watch pile so I dug it out. Wow, talk about a lesson in tight, impactful filmmaking. I was too young to appreciate the film when I first saw it on video but now I'm considerably older than the "old man" boxing protagonist played by Robert Ryan. I don't have boxing experience but I can relate to the characters in many other ways including the loss of 20 so called "prime" years. So many great faces in this film. The DVD includes a commentary by the director and Martin Scorsese. The disc upgraded well enough but it was easy to see how a fresh bluray transfer would improve on it. Cheers!

[@kunider9714]

I hope you do a top 5 Neon Noir, or Noir in color 😁

[@TheWaynos73]

Some of my favourite noirs in colour: Body Heat, Red Rock West, Devil in a Blue Dress, The Long Goodbye, Leave Her to Heaven.

[@johnm.withersiv4352]

Our 11 year old daughter has landed a role as Janitor #1 in a stage play based on Noirs. It's a Lighter Shade of Noir by Patrick Derksen. So I'm compiling some noir movies to show her. So far, she's already seen Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Dick Tracy which are color, later examples but pull from the themes and visual story telling cues. That made a good warm up to help her understand the play overall, but she needs to sample some harder boiled noir too.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

You know Max Allan Collins wrote the Dick Tracy comic strip for years? After its creator, Chester Gould, stepped down, Max took it over. He also wrote the movie's novelization! :)

[@shawnmartin7500]

@Max - excellent observation on "Postman Always Rings Twice".

[@crboyd254]

An underrated actor Richard Widmark, Night and the City. with Gene Tierney. Film Noir.

[@tomahawk238]

Fascinating discussion. Would love to hear round 2 with you guys. My personal favorites are Double Indemnity, Out of the Past, In a Lonely Place, The Third Man, Laura

[@curtisevans4100]

Nice discussion, thanks.

[@TokuAndAnimationNewsNetwork]

My top three for sure are Double Indemnity, Touch of Evil, and The Maltese Falcon. Things get dicey after that because I haven't really spent the time to narrow it down, but some contenders are The Third Man, Nightmare Alley, Ride the Pink Horse, In A Lonely Place, Night of the Hunter, and Shadow of a Doubt. I actually have never seen Dark Passage. I would love to at some point.

[@tltatt]

Loved this discussion about favorite film noirs and would love a follow-up with more favorite classic noirs and a video on neo-noir favorites would be great also.

[@Bibliophilo]

These interviews (as podcasts for me) and your unscripted videos are the best videos in your channel.

[@Vino-bv5ic]

Wonderful vlog. The best !!

[@TheAlexZorba]

Heath this stream is in my top 5 cereal at midnight. My favorite is The Maltese Falcon. I read all the Hamett I could. The Glass Key and The Thin Man etc. Mr Collins is right on TMF is a novel come to life. Side note the Cohn bros Miller's Crossing is taken from or is a Tarantino style homage to Hammett.

[@1995yuda]

Thank you so much, this is PERFECT 🙏💙

[@tetrapharmakos8868]

Lovely Conversation. Richard Stark is my mentor!

[@WaverBoy]

Great vid! Heath, super glad that Detour is on your list. And of course, now I gotta give ya my unsolicited top five (with two tied for first place): 1. Detour (1945) / Double Indemnity (1944) 2. The Face Behind the Mask (1941) 3. Three Strangers (1946) 4. The Mask of Dimitrios (1944) 5. The Maltese Falcon (1941)

[@CerealAtMidnight]

Some rare and unconventional films on that list! Excellent.

[@orlanca758]

My top 5 OUT OF THE PAST, SUNSET BOULEVARD, D.O.A, THE BIG SLEEP, THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE, and my honorable mention: 1955 color film “VIOLENT SATURDAY”

[@respecttheface7152]

#1 Blast of silence

[@CerealAtMidnight]

Ah, Christmas noir.

[@TheWaynos73]

My favourites: Laura, In A Lonely Place, The Postman Always Rings Twice, Black Tuesday, Fallen Angel, Detour, Split Second.

[@1van_Ko]

My Top-5 (so far..) 1. Dial M for Murder; 2. The Big Clock; 3. Gaslight; 4. The Enforcer; 5. Brute Force.

[@TokuAndAnimationNewsNetwork]

The Big Clock is so damn good.

[@MrRutty1984]

Great conversation a few of my favourite noirs were mentioned like Gun Crazy fantastic film also Out of the Past. For me my favourite is Double Indemnity followed by The Big Heat so good. I've only really started to watch film noir in the last 2 years so still plenty to discover.

[@dansmith3085]

The blue collar comparison of Noir and hard-boiled stories to the more genteel Agatha Christie type has also been applied to Sword & Sorcery fiction versus Epic Fantasy. Epic deals with kings and queens and grand world changing events. S&S is ground level, personal stakes, dealing with thieves and cutthroats and common people. Hard-boiled and Sword & Sorcery have much in common.

[@steveabel7066]

Great observation.

[@Malvito]

This is such a fun conversation, and, what makes even better is the fact that we have almost everything mentioned here, between the two of you. I also have to compliment the way this conversation, ostensibly about favorite film noirs, is branching out into so many tangents. (OMG, I could listen to Orson Welles stories for hours, probably my favorite being how he demanded a specific fur-lined coat for THE BLACK ROSE, which then found its way into his OTHELLO.) (BTW, Speaking of Robert Mitchum, I have never heard you mention it ... have you heard his album of calypso music? As odd of a pairing as it would appear, it's actually pretty good.) LADY IN THE LAKE and I, THE JURY are on our Annual Yuletide Watch list. This past Yuletide, we were able to add to our Yuletide Noirs; it has been our first year subscribing to the Criterion Channel streamer, so this is our first exposure to their Christmas Noir list. I was also amused at your note about DETOUR and blaming fate. Very Shakespearean; "The fault lies not in our stars but in ourselves." I also don't think it unfair to compare the Tom Neal character to Sisyphus.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

I had forgotten all about Mitchum’s calypso jams. I should refamilairize myself!

[@Malvito]

@CerealAtMidnight Curious, given your reactions to del Toro's NIGHTMARE ALLEY (I must express my disagreement, but there you go), what is your reaction to the 1981 Rafealson take on THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE? (It only now crossed my mind because I was looking on eBay for the older one on Blu, and the newer one kept popping up; as it stands, at eBay prices, I might as well go new because the Gruv prices are better. EBay is not always the best way to go; I find that the best way to go is with a little patience and a LOT of research. )

[@majortree]

Thanks for the discussion! I'm going to buy some blu-rays of these movies.

[@SnakeNel]

Great video about noir! I would like to see Collins again talking about Donald Westlake, Mickey Spillane, or anything. I can think of at least one classic noir in color (beautiful color!) LEAVE HER TO HEAVEN, and several very good ones A KISS BEFORE DYING, HOUSE OF BAMBOO, VIOLENT SATURDAY, and SLIGHTLY SCARLET. I like your list better than Max's, but he has me wanting to watch THE POSTMAN ALWAYS RINGS TWICE again. I like it, but I don't think it's top tier. My favorite Garfield performances are in FORCE OF EVIL and BODY AND SOUL. I don't think I would kill for Lana Turner. Maybe Peggy Cummings, Ella Raines, Colleen Gray, Martha Vickers.. .I mostly agree about DOUBLE INDEMNITY, but I think the one great relationship (if not romantic) is between Robinson and McMurray. My top five noirs are: 1) GUN CRAZY, 2) OUT OF THE PAST, 3) PHANTOM LADY, 4) IN A LONELY PLACE, and 5) THE ASPHALT JUNGLE. Runner-up would be THE BIG HEAT.

[@steveabel7066]

Excellent point about the relationship between Robinson and McMurray in Double Indemnity. It's the relationship that gives the movie some real humanity.

[@TomFrichek]

I don't need you to give me the recipe to the secret sauce, but how do you get these interviews? 10/10 fricheks

[@CerealAtMidnight]

I could make a joke, but the truth is, I think people can see my love of cinema and appreciate that I don’t dump on things and instead try to talk about what I love. Passion is infectious. Respect and joy open a lot of doors!

[@TomFrichek]

@@CerealAtMidnight hell ya brother!

[@RockyPondProductions]

I am partial to some of the public domain noir films due to their accessibility and overall quality. You can watch films like D. O. A., He Walks by Night and The Big Combo very easily online for no cost. It is worth taking advantage of that. For bigger budget films Out of the Past and Forign Correspondent are other favorites.

[@JimSteele-ck5vu]

Love watching all these movies

[@neild4451]

D.O.A. , the Edmund O' Brien version , hopefully film masters does a release if they do the Wade Williams catalogue.

[@johnlang1933]

I immediately thought of “the night of the hunter” when you started down the street of Robert Mitchum in his “scary”mode…but when the subject is “noir”…I think his personality in “cape fear”and the movie story itself is much more film noir…

[@AndyTempleman-ot6lu]

I don't watch a lot of noir but enjoyed your discussion on this topic.

[@u77750]

Dude! I love Dark Passage! I always felt I was the only one. Thanks!

[@slyfly187]

I like your new direction. I love physical media too -- but I really hate myself because I don't know 90% of the tv/movie's out there and I need someone to tell me where to go .. a lot like the employee picks at BlockBuster.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

Cheers! Also, don't hate yourself, we're all doing our best! I'm glad the channel can be a good resource for movie recommendations.

[@slate49]

Man! What a great episode! Now I’m gonna go back in my collection and watch a handful of these Film Noir mentioned here. Tho I haven’t seen Gun Crazy as of yet-It’s on my list. I’m thinking Drew Barrymore remade the film back in the 90s…and…I hadn’t seen that one either.

[@astonmatthews185]

Fantastic episode, love max.

[@stevealharris6669]

Got Gun crazy,Murder my sweet,The setup & Dark passage on the HMV premium collection (on blu ray) not seen them yet ,maybe today?

[@AMovieFan35]

Enjoyed this conversation and the history behind the films! A little funny how you're stating you're going off the beaten path yet still recommend some of the most well known noir :) Not a criticism, just found that part particularly funny. Also, no picks from the massive stack of KL Film Noir sets from behind you? Frank Tarzi must be crying right now :D Anyways, my two favourite noirs (for today) are My Name is Julia Ross and In a Lonely Place.

[@orlanca758]

Out of the past! My first choice! I see it once or twice yearly

[@willieluncheonette5843]

My top 7 in no order are Vertigo, Touch Of Evil, Kiss Me Deadly, Out of the Past, White Heat, The Lineup and Shoot the Piano Player (If Night of the Hunter is a noir (maybe it is) it would be in here.)

[@baltog5214]

I would love to see a top 5 westerns with you and Max

[@michaelmcgee8543]

Yes!

[@orlanca758]

Second best “The big sleep”

[@TBCOGR]

I love Ann Savage's bitchy, over-the-top performance in "Detour." You really love to hate her by the end. And I love how it's not just an unreliable narrator but a narrator who kinda doesn't expect us to believe him by the end. "Sunset Blvd." has one of my favorite tragic plot tropes-- the "I love you but we can never be together because I hate myself more." (It's like Catwoman in "Batman Returns.") Not sure if it's technically noir, but I'm always kinda haunted by the final scene of "I Am a Fugitive from a Chain Gang." Our protagonist, who has spent all of this time trying to stay noble & law-abiding despite the worst string of luck imaginable, is finally reduced to being the petty thief that the justice system was always convinced that he was. [SPOILERS for "Dark Passage"] Heath, I love ya, but I gotta push back at least a little about "Dark Passage." Too much of the plot hinges around the one-in-a-bajillion coincidence that Lauren Bacall's nosy neighbor also JUST HAPPENS to be the woman who killed Humphrey Bogart's wife. Maybe, in another movie, it could have seemed like tragic fate conspiring against them. But here, it just feels contrived. But the first-person POV is a neat camera gimmick.

[@ayzworld]

Great video. You gotta get Charles Ardai on ✌🏽

[@joshua2814]

Well, I added the ones I haven't seen to my watch list. I have a hard time defining what film noir is unless it has most of the stereotypical elements. But I do agree "Sunset Boulevard" belongs there (and is great).

[@dmk7700]

Kiss Me Deadly / Gun Crazy / Asphalt Jungle / The Killing / Shield For Murder

[@RC-qk7qw]

Any recommendations for someone trying film noir for the first time?

[@edbalsam2154]

I think one of the best movies to not just dip your toe, but to dive head first into when it comes to film noir and the darkness that it holds is Scarlet Street directed by Fritz Lang and starring Edward G. Robinson, Joan Bennet and Dan Duryea. It's not a polished heavy hitter like Double Indemnity or Maltese Falcon and very few of them reach that level of perfection. Scarlet Street gives you a great introduction into a tale of a man's descent into darkness thanks to his own desires letting him be led into hell by a femme fatale. It's also in the public domain, so you can watch it easily on KZbin if it isn't streaming anywhere.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

Every movie mentioned here would serve as a stellar entree into the dark world of film noir. These are some of the best films noir has to offer.

[@ayzworld]

I’d start with the postman always rings twice. It goes down easy. ✌🏽

[@RC-qk7qw]

That’s very much appreciated. Thanks for the suggestions.

[@ayzworld]

@@RC-qk7qw very welcome!

[@georgemurrell8464]

Would you classify "L.A. Confidenial" as Film Nior.

[@CerealAtMidnight]

Absolutely, though I’d call it a neo noir, since it’s color and from the 1990s. It’s one of the most noir movies made in the last 50 years.

[@danhurst9048]

Film noir,art deco and women have this in common...you know what they are when you see them,but they're hard to describe

[@ArvidRanta]

If you in your wildest dreams think that The Maltese Falcon is more of a film noir than Out Of The Past...idk man. I don't even consider TMF a true film noir. While OOTP is the perfect Film Noir.

[@roberthealey526]

My favorite noir adjacent movie is Body Heat

[@brettrobson5739]

Glad to see Ulmer's Detour in there, but no Siodmak no likey.

[@noneofyourbusiness1114]

I’m surprised the third man wasn’t on this

[@BoneClock919pm]

You're both way off on the remake of NIGHTMARE ALLEY. Its a 10 out of 10.

[@michaelmcgee8543]

Man in the Eiffel tower.

[@kunider9714]

Too bad Kiss Me Deadly has probably the worst cover image that Criterion ever released

[@TokuAndAnimationNewsNetwork]

You haven't seen their Citizen Kane 4K cover, have you?