NOW is the Time for ICF (ICF vs Wood)

[@bkucinschi]

Excellent video as usual, Garrett. Short and to the point, no beating around the bush. Thank you for posting.

[@Challenged1]

Thank you for your kindness!

[@williamwhistler386]

Thank you for this much needed video! a point you touched on in this ICF v WOOD comparison is that besides INITIAL costs there are DURABILITY costs; a stick-framed home is most likely not to even last the length of the mortgage on it in terms of offering a structure that is rot-free, healthy, and of adequate insulative value. Our American house building process has changed little in 200 years. For all it’s attributes that suited wood well to home construction, there were at least two major flaws inherent in wood that had to be overcome every time it was used: It burned easily and when it got wet and stayed wet it would rot. These are essentially issues of durability and while no one expected a wooden structure to last forever, a home needs to last a generation or two at least for our country to grow and provide stability. Fast forward to today: 4 foot by 8 foot manufactured wood sheathing panels are used to reinforce a soft timber 2-inch by 4 -inch (still code legal) structural frame for walls. This is increased to 2 -inch by 6-inch softwood rafters for the roof and maybe a nominally thicker wood-chip and glue processed “wood” panel is used to support the heavier load and prevent wracking. These wood panels are affixed to the framing members by tens of thousands of nails and each panel has 24 feet of linear edges creating nearly a mile of butted joints that must be sealed or at least fitted tightly to separate the inside space from the exterior space. This temple of softwood must then wrapped on the outside with a petro-chemical based house wrap to prevent water leakage and protected from fire with cumbersome, labor-intensive gypsum board to create a reasonable amount of time to allow occupants to escape in case of a fire. applying insulation is yet another labor costly step that is hardly ever applied as it needs to be to create a continuous membrane to prevent heat loss. In comparison, ICF provides an air-tight, well-insulated, rot-proof external wall assembly in a fraction of the time and with 10-20 times the durability. And, no, I do not own shares in an ICF company :)

[@fabiancanada8876]

I disagree :-) I build my house (bungalow) using 2x4s staggered on 24 o.c. on a 7 1/4" plate. For sheathing I used t&g 1x6 boards + let in bracing. On the outside I put a breathable membrane (building wrap). On the inside a vapour barrier (plastic), then 1x4 strapping, then painted drywall (air seal). For insulation I had dense packed cellulose. That wall is well insulated and if there is any moisture it can escape easily to the outside. The wall is strong, and quiet and I am getting all that for almost half the price of ICF. However, that is because I am doing it myself and nobody is paying me for my time.. If labour becomes an issue it would probably be different. I kind of like ICF but if you build yourself it is certainly not cheaper even with the high lumber prices we are currently seeing (a 2x4 for 12 CAD).

[@marcell9378]

We will be building next year. A lot of your content has been on point and very much appreciated. Thanks Garrett.

[@Challenged1]

Glad to help

[@Zorlig]

I think I'll use icf for basement walls at least, I like how easily the built in insulation can be extended across the floor and give you that unbroken layer.

[@CelBloxICF]

Wood is so expensive now. It doesn't make sense to not use ICF for the entire house.

[@fabiancanada8876]

I don't understand how it only can be 5-10% for an ICF. It has to do with labour?! I am thinking of building a 32x50 bungalow myself (8' walls) and the ICF walls came to 18k CAD and the the 2x8 walls came to 10k. Thats 80% more for the ICF ?! My 2x8 walls would be 24 o.c. and have 2x4 staggered so that there is no thermal bridging. I would have sheathing on the outside and dense packed cellulose on the inside giving me about an R27 for the walls (1x4 strapping on the inside to hang the drywall, this is also giving me 3/4" more room for cellulose so a total of 8" cellulose). A concrete pump truck costs close to 1000 CAD. Rebar isn't cheap and I would have to rent bracing to brace the walls. Beside the much higher price, what really turns me off is bracing all the windows (+doors). Just were roughly for the ICF (total about 18k): - 1k for the concrete pump truck - 5k for the concrete - 10 k for the forms - 500 for the rebar - 1k for renting+buying bracing For the 2x8 walls (total about 10k): - 1x4 Strapping 500 - 2x8 1750 - 2x4 1500 - cellulose 2k - vapour barrier 200 - building wrap 250 - nails 350 - sheathing 3500 I kind of like the ICF (even took a Foxx Block training course because I did a foundation with it) but I think I can use the 8k for something else

[@Challenged1]

Much of the savings come from reduced labor and time. The 5-10% difference isn't from wall to wall, it is a difference on the entire build. A 300K build would cost 15-30k more (before the skyrocketing lumber prices) using icf from foundation to roof.

[@fabiancanada8876]

@@Challenged1 Hello Garrett, thanks for the quick reply. Yes it must be the labor thats making the ICF more competitive (not having to put up vapour barrier, strapping, sheathing, insulation, nailing the stuff together,..). However, since I am doing the work myself and nobody is paying me for my time, it is much cheaper for me to build a 2x8 wall. Cheers

[@ppainterco]

Lately, I’ve been wondering if the cost and availability of materials and labor might be making it so that ICF and SIP homes are less costly than stick frame.

[@salvatorehayes2753]

Dang. Now It's Time To Consider ICF. I Considered It Before But Decided To Go Traditional Due To Price. Now Question Is Weather Lumber Will Go Back To Normal / Cheaper Then ICF...

[@kirkshirley1319]

My musings on concrete roofs: I have heard of a 7-12 or a 9-12 pitch being done out of concrete. Contractors who have done this say they'll never do it again. The main problem is concrete runs down hill and you need to vibrate the concrete the flow around the rebar, therefore it tends to run down hill faster. As far as aesthetics go, concrete is not a waterproof material. It should be considered as structural only. Concrete shrinks, cracks and turns gray. A cracked roof will leak therefore it has to have a waterproofing membrane coating or traditional roofing material on top. It just seems a waste to put tiles on top of a pitched concrete roof. Stamped concrete roof is out because of its difficulty on a pitched roof and the fact that it would leak. Asphalt tiles on concrete are difficult because you can't nail them. What the building industry needs is a way to have a textured membrane waterproofing material to mimic shingles or the way to attach asphalt shingles to concrete fast. A membrane could be painted to give a 3d effect but what a pain. Pitched roofs can be poured in panels on flat ground them allowed to cure for a few weeks then flown up to the roof via crane. They can be cast in manageable sizes but they will still have to be covered with a waterproofing material. Lifting lugs and attachment plates can be welded to the rebar and cast in the panel as done with tilt wall construction. This method would not need any shoring during curing. A contemporary style house or mansard style roof Are the easiest way to aesthetically top an ICF house and have an concrete roof. Why do we pitch roofs anyway? Water or snow loading. These types of roofs can be engineered the withstand any snow load plus you can have a skydeck.

[@houstonbill]

I always thought need something like Rhino lining / truck bed lining spray the roof with. Just interesting idea not that it would work.

[@boots7859]

I am building a simple 14x24 shed, and looking at ICCF simply because I am not interested in paying a premium for kiln-dried crap white wood lumber. I haven't checked the 'local' Amish prices, however I'm sure they are up as well. Ran across The Perfect Block company, which seems to have an affordable ICCF form which doesn't need bracing for pours. Garrett, any thoughts on TPB's product?

[@Challenged1]

I think it would be great for any garage or shed, or anything that you are fine stuccoing.

[@av1204]

ICF prices are all going up 15% right now. Got notified from two different suppliers.

[@Challenged1]

Yup, I heard that too. Sounds like the raw materials have gone up. Even with that increase, the icf is still the way to go

[@av1204]

@@Challenged1 100% i already built mine. I came for the ICF videos stayed for the mobile home flipping. lol

[@jamez2u]

Hey Garrett, thanks so much for all the videos, I am considering buying a piece of property that was burned during one of the california wildfires and want to have a home that is more resistant to fire than the standard wood frame. I noticed you choose a Styrofoam based icf block, would you suggest that type of block in a high fire danger area? Or would you go with something made from aircrete? How did you go about choosing your icf blocks? Would you choose the same ones again?

[@Challenged1]

If you like a stucco finish, "The Perfect Block" may be your best choice. I used Buildblock and I felt they had one of the best plastic web designs and a great technical manual. I'm happy with my choice. Others rave about Nudura, but I don't have any experience with them.

[@taeganldandfamily522]

Very nice video

[@daddy-orockstarmunchabunch3568]

I’ve been working on getting my build going. I’ve been saying this very thing. Lumber prices are so high the concrete is the way to go. Especially if you build yourself and reduce the labor cost. Question for you, do you think it would be worth it to build interior walls ICF as opposed to wood frame? If costs are similar you could have a much quieter interior as well. Downsides I see are trying to hang pictures and stuff are more challenging with ICF webs, plumbing chases are gonna be needed (I’m trying to place all plumbing on interior walls, especially drains) and if you have wood floor then concrete walls would be impractical unless they go through to foundation. Thoughts? I’m wanting a theater room and considering ICF interior walls for that and “safe” room. Otherwise I’ll probably do wood interior. Also I’ve been very interested in the quad deck flooring with radiant floor heating but as you mentioned it requires so much bracing that cost effectiveness is questionable. Great video and I love your channel. I’m hoping to film some of the construction of mine and post up. Keep up the great content.

[@Challenged1]

If it were me, I'd stick with wood frame on the inside, but I like the idea of icf in the theater room. Just keep in mind you won't be able to have in-wall surround speakers with the icf walls in that room.

[@daddy-orockstarmunchabunch3568]

@@Challenged1 my fear is that as these prices shift interest to ICF it’s gonna push the price of concrete up. I’m hoping to start building in Aug. fingers crossed materials come down

[@stephanied.k.3589]

Pandemic, Canadian tariffs, demand. In that order. Thanks for the video!

[@chrisE815]

2x6 wall calculation: (13.98-5.63)/5.63 * 100 = 148% increase, right?

[@Challenged1]

Correct, I amended in the description of the video

[@jonstolarski]

this would have been nice if you said wtf icf is. for the benefit of those as lazy as me, the answer is Insulated Concrete Forms it's like a linkinlogs lego hybrid building beam.

[@boots7859]

It would be nice if the WTF losers were not so lazy that they couldn't google something, but somehow are not too lazy to commentard....

[@ivisllenas5057]

Hi Garrett, I have several owner builder construction questions. I don't know how to inbox a private message that if you have the time to contact me.

[@tblbaby]

Nobody knows what ICF is. O_O

[@Challenged1]

Insulated Concrete Forms - I've made lots of videos on the subject

[@tblbaby]

@@Challenged1 Thanks. I looked and found it. Every vid has new viewers.

[@Challenged1]

@@tblbaby I appreciate it

[@jonstolarski]

your would-be new subscribers haven't seen your other videos.

[@boots7859]

@@jonstolarski The Internet is both making people smarter, and stupider at the same time. Would really hate it if every video on every subject was forced to regurgitate common knowledge for the idiots who are to lazy to do a simple google, or figure it out from a video... In the coming years, we will have 2 classes of people, smart, and dumber than a box of rocks.

[@johnmirbach2338]

😁✌🖖👌👍😎