Chambers Kit Vs Kibler Kit Vs TOTW Kit

[@beckflintlocks]

Corrections/ Update information(too much bourbon) 😅: 1.The brass parts from Chambers are investment castings 2.Track of the Wolf uses a 5 axis pantograph (Not CNC), 3. Kibler barrel lugs are also “now milled as part of the barrel”. 4. The lock similar to Kiblers lock is the Chambers Colonial Virginia Flintlock, not the Queen Ann lock, the Queen Ann is the pistol version. 5. Eric von Aschwege did not design every master/kit but is working on the Fowler kit and helped Jim with Brass injection molding. If you think I am an expert you probably drink as much as I do! 🍺

[@danielelliott3659]

Good review anyhow. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It's good to see someone as young as you with a passion for black powder and keeping the tradition going. God bless America.

[@rutrutbella600]

Ty for the video on different kits

[@rickstevens5592]

I don't think "notorious" is the right words to describe anything Chambers does. His work is phenomenal.

[@beckflintlocks]

His work is phenomenal- I used the word in place of famous, or widely known. Just now realizing it can have a negative definition.

[@hokehinson5987]

Those are the top tier condenders for kits. We purchased two fowler kits in .62 cal from 'the setting fox'. The stocks were inletted for barrel & ramrod only. At that time of purchase T.S.F. offered lock upgrades from davis or L.& R. The default lock was sidler style. Both flint or percussion were offered. Also upgrades to double set davis triggers. Furniture was sand cast....wood choice was grades of maple, cherry & walnut.

[@mikewickerham8149]

Very nice video. I’m working on a Kibler SMR right now and just happened to take a break and stumbled onto your video. This is my first build since a TC Hawken 45 years ago. I looked at all the kits you reviewed and came to the same conclusion that Kibler was the best place to start. I really want to build the JP Beck from Track of the Wolf, but I didn’t want to turn $1,200 in parts into a $100 rifle. It’s kind of intimidating, so I think Kibler’s got a good approach to increasing the market for kits.

[@irked4975]

I am looking to buy a kit, and i find this video one day after publishing. Nice!

[@beckflintlocks]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@timbaxter5206]

I got into black powder firearms mid 70's bulding mostly from scratch, bought a barrel blank and made the rest, stock, lock, trigger guard. being a retired now and having worked allot on cnc machines i know how accurate they are. I bought a Jim Kibler Colonial Long Rifle extra fancy curly maple for a winter project. Jim Does an excellent job at programing the parts needed very little fitting only took about 2 weeks and i was done. Beautiful rifle and shoots extremely well.

[@raulmorales9967]

Yep,I started with the Track of the wolf,Worked on it then walked away and come back,nervously working on it till I finished it,Went off the first time I pulled the trigger.Thanks for the video.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

A very thorough and honest review of the available options for building a long rifle, the only reservation I have on the excellent Kibler option is that in years to come, owners of these will say "my grandfather made this rifle", whereas all they did was screw it together as it is a perfect fit needing just a finish, the Chambers and TOTW kits of parts are really a collection of part required to actually make a rifle, ( as of course many of the originals were ),I feel the maker is much more entitled to say "I made the rifle", which gives it an actual value, with the Kibler kit it is just buying a rifle in the white, as you correctly pointed out, however, there are very few builders capable of making an authentic rifle from bare parts, so if one wants a good rifle with very little effort, (the modern way), then the Kibler kit is fine, it just has not been made by you. Many thanks for posting this. Chris B.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

I see your point, but you can do AS MUCH or as Little as you Want? My thing is the Wood working bedding, or repairs, including the finish, and metals finishing polish, passivation/ bluing, or plating, to make any of this type MINE. Just German Silver plated a 1911 slide, Coppered all the doodad's for my son in laws wedding gift. Now He's a Gun Guy, and better shot than "I" with his 1911 in 4 months.

[@EnvirotekCleaningSystems]

Do you have reservations about a home builder who didn't cut down the trees and mill the lumber that was used? What if one guy used a hand saw and hammer and nails but bought the lumber at a lumber store, and another guy used a circular saw and an air powered framing gun, but cut the trees off his own property and milled the lumber on site? Which one is the real builder? What if someone's Grandfather has a build sheet with a detailed parts list and they go to a lumber store and order every single board, nail, screw and piece of hardware to build a shed, would you have a reservation about someone telling a friend their grandfather built it? Do you need to drill an oil well to make the asphalt for the shingles to be a builder? Where is the line? It is kind of a silly distinction to attempt to quantify based of your own perception of what some guy might say about his Grandfather 50 or 60 years from now. Certainly you are entitled to your own opinion, but so is everyone else ya know? Just adding a little perspective that you might not have considered.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@EnvirotekCleaningSystems I think you are being a bit silly here with that statement! Of course I have no problem with a builder making his project with bought in parts, that of course is what most makers did back then, there is no point in making complicate units like a lock. taking many hours of work when a cheap lock could be purchased ready to go from England, probably true for trigger guard castings, but my point is that if a rifle is not signed by it's maker ,then enters the market, or is inherited with the statement "my grandad made this", then that is not at all true, even a rifle built from bought in timber and steel is "made", but a kit is just assembled, if you ever made a rifle then you would understand. Chris B.

[@shadetreemech290]

I'm enrolled in the next Southern Ohio class (March 2024) and we are going to build the Kibler kit. It looks like I've made the right choice and decided to go with them and their recommendation. The 99% done stock sounds good to me. And it looks like there's plenty left to do to keep me busy. I plan to use my firearm to hunt deer in PA. I've gotten about a dozen of them so far with my Tompson Center Hawken FL ML in 45 cal. And I'm looking for a new love. Here's to the Pennsylvania long rifle and the whiskey rebellion.

[@beckflintlocks]

Southern Ohio classes are great! Enjoy.

[@hokehinson5987]

Theres several books on step by step procedures with illustrations on inletting for locks, tangs, and barrels. Using candle soot is the best way to determine high spots in the inletting. A builder needs at least a hand manual drill or electric or bench drill press for lock inletting...most everything else can be attacked with large to medium files wood rasp, jewerles files some good 1/4" chisels...some forsters bits & spiral bits...& patience x10.😊

[@patrickbelongea6896]

Thanks, this answered many questions for me. I was trying to decide between Kibler and Chambers. I think I'll start with a Kibler smr.

[@brokentoe570]

Sorry, they are not Kentucky rilfes . They Pennsylvania long rifles. LOL 😅😅😅. Nice work sir. Thank you for the information.

[@beckflintlocks]

Yes I know that of course! But the terms are synonymous at this point.

[@Real11BangBang]

It's a lot like the term "garand" one term is correct and the other term has been used so much and for so long that it also is not wrong

[@mdbryan9525]

Very cool video. Nice to hear about the differences. You might consider cleaning the lens on your camera. That’ll fix the lens flare.

[@grega2362]

I have a custom and I have wanted a smooth rifle for a while. Two problems, my woodworking skill pretty much ends at the tip of a 24" bar, finishing skill is pretty good, and the man who made mine passed away. Kinda liking the Kibler.

[@ericjohnson8571]

Very helpful information! Thank you’ I think I’ll start with a Kibler kit.

[@michaelstorm8578]

Kiblers instruction videos are very good. I have built a couple of Pedersoli kits from Dixie and was happy with them but they give very little instruction info. Pedersoli does give a good discount on a kit compared to a finished gun. I started with Traditions kits and they are a lot of work to make a fairly nice finished product. Traditions gives very small discount on the kit from just getting a finished gun. I think Traditions barrels are pretty rough but I did get them to shoot ok with a lot of lapping.

[@libertyrogueoutdoors7369]

Just came across your channel! Great video and advice...thank you for really giving an honest over view. Look forward to more! Keep doing what your doing! Semper Fi.

[@richardkibler3870]

Excellent,Thanks for the reviews of some of the best kits available these day's.I know which kit I would invest in,Cheers!

[@beckflintlocks]

Glad to help

[@stephenfields6236]

Big undertaking ! You did a great job. Very well balanced and fair. I’m pretty familiar with these three kits. Nice background music too.

[@olskool3967]

i just finished my 8th Kibler kit, unreal how good they are. the woods runner requires no sanding or wood removal. the SMR is a tad harder but still it is easy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[@beckflintlocks]

Sounds like it’s time for a Chambers

[@TomMJH]

Excellent video! Thank you for making it.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

I built my 1st muzzle loader 1858 revolver in 76 at age 11 or 12 from machined but rough castings to polish and salts blued timed and running! today! As a Lover of OLD Tooling and Modern! all these are in my wheelhouse, just never built Ground Up a long gun, only lots of smithing. I would like to Hook? Like a Big Ol Bass! my New Son in Law, and my Daughter on BP Stoners and Cappers! Rifled or Musket Fouler or Not? Got them hooked on Modern. I would Like a Kit with an Interchanging Pan and Nipple for an ease of Marksmanship and or good Black Powder Practices depending on the day? Any Recommendations? Was done easy in history, I must think Someone has this option today in a Kit, or Not, with some smithing required. Happy I Found Your Channel! Thanks! and God Bless! Keep Your Smoke Poles SMOKING! Yes! I CARBONED my Distilled Grains, Decent Powder, Better Rye. FYI to you or any watching your channel. I Inherited a tool yrs ago from a good Buddie. I Just Came to Know what it IS! It Is an INGRAVING TOOL? about 150lbs plus easy total, one part in convex, the other concaved fitting together each Very HEAVY. I used it as a mill, not well, It is WAS Used to HOLD any piece for engraving work with the ability to spin 360 and rock maybe 60 degrees for positioning of the art to the artist. I Know who gave this to Me, he would Love it to LIVE ON and be used. Know anyone? who is an Artist?

[@alexanderbaliko5532]

Very well done review! Happy New Year neighbor.

[@beckflintlocks]

Happy new year!

[@alexanderbaliko5532]

@@beckflintlocks It is for us both. So glad the little one is doing better.

[@guylewis7418]

Thank you for sharing this. This knowledge will be kept in mind.

[@beckflintlocks]

Glad it was helpful!

[@TXGRunner]

This is a great comparison and is very useful. One note for the future: you probably meant "famously" instead of "notoriously".

[@beckflintlocks]

I’ll blame it on the bourbon 🤣

[@beebob1279]

@@beckflintlocks the bourbon. 🤣

[@Noncenx]

Perfect timing on this. I've done a couple of the Kibler kits and think you'll a little off. The newest kit, the Woodsrunner is done on the 5-axis CNC machine however the Colonial and SMR aren't and still require fitting. The Woodsrunner is great for that person who doesn't have someone around to help when they get stuck. But this post isn't to argue with you since I mostly agree, (and liked it) but to ask your thoughts on this ... The Hawkins Shop. I go back and forth between a Chambers build being next build but really want a Hawken kit. But want more than a Traditions or Investarm kit. Or do you know of another Hawken kit I should look at?

[@beckflintlocks]

Kibler plans on doing a Hawken but if I was gonna get one, I would go directly to the Hawken Shop.

[@Real11BangBang]

Excellent review. I was wondering if you ever had any experience with rifle shoppr kits, I've been building one of their model 1774 French muskets and it seems to be a good kit. Pretty advanced considering I took the build your own lock option but definitely worth it. Thanks again Ethan

[@beckflintlocks]

I have they have a little longer wait time depending what your order in The inletting is very similar to Chambers Kit and Track of the wolf.

[@stephenhodges5162]

Great video. Thank you!

[@beebob1279]

I'm starting at building my first flintlock. I want to start with the Kiblers (not sure which model yet). However, I have cherry at the house that I would like to have Kiblers mill for the stock. I just don't think a company would do this for me. The Cherry came from the trees on my father's (now mine) property. He milled and build all the cabinets from the cherry he took from the lot when he built the house. I want to use the Cherry that I removed from the lot. Sort of a father to son thing. Obviously, I'll still pay the full price of the kit and give it a go. I have a Lyman that I have used for years. I just think it would be fun to build from a kit. What do you think? How do I go about this?

[@453421abcdefg12345]

I am sure that Jim Kibler offers the service of machining your own wood, contact him. Chris B.

[@beebob1279]

I already contacted the company and they can do that.

[@hokanut]

That extra meat on the Kibler Colonial is great if you plan to do any relief carving. Go slow, plan your work then work the plan.

[@chuckaddison5134]

Gun prices are doing more for disarmament that any gun control legislation. I guess that includes BP arms too.

[@beckflintlocks]

Your not kidding- that’s probably part of their plan…

[@davefellhoelter1343]

no? just look. Zero paperwork just like a Toaster. they are very available on the cheap, $50 for my last colt 45 army repro. I smithed a new cylinder paw spring from a pens, pocket clip, and refinished her, got het running on All Six cylinders, than German silver plated over Nikel plating of Visa Versa? Now she's a SHOOTER for $50 as good as any of my others. I got TWO long guns in an auctioned lot from RIA shipped for about $600 Very Nice, I still smithed them to what "I wanted". I have purchased NEW Old still in the Box repros (3 45's last yr) very Nice for $150 to $175 at my local pawn.

[@JonIronhorse]

These aren't Lyman kits. Premium locks, barrels, and cnc machined inletting.

[@odelloutdoors3424]

Nice review. Thank you

[@beckflintlocks]

Thanks for watching!

[@brealistic3542]

Thanks !

[@SwampPineDavey]

Great custom build, what process did you use to gray your barrel? I recently purchased a kibler kit as my first step into custom flintlocks and would like to finish the barrel in a similar fashion to yours. Thanks!

[@beckflintlocks]

Natural rust from sitting in my basement, then little blueing that is then rubbed back almost gone.

[@AlanHigh-x4i]

If I ever order a kit it'll be the Kibler Woodsrunner. Why? Because I'm one of those special people who can fck up an anvil with a feather, that's why.

[@beckflintlocks]

That bad? Maybe just have someone build it for you 🤣🤣🤣

[@richardschenk496]

Fantastic review

[@beckflintlocks]

Glad you liked it!

[@sheepsfoot2]

I bought an xtra fancy curly maple pre cut Pennsylvania stock from PECATONICA 😡😡😡. Halfway up the stock is a huge 3 inch knot that snapped as i was fitting the swamped barrel. It also has a 45deg angle crack from the tang to the pre inletted lock area... I emailed Pecatonica photos , they simply responded send it back ! ???? Well easier said than done postage from Australia to the US then return of a replacement + quarantine costs more than the stocks worth . THEY KNEW THIS FOR SURE IT WOULDNT BE VIABLE TO SEND IT BACK !

[@straightup160]

Great video's. Best graphics on the t shirts.

[@beckflintlocks]

Glad you like them!

[@rpb1961]

Beautiful gun you built. Subbed

[@johnmoore8067]

I want to build one of these beautiful pieces. Any advice on where to find a left-handed flintlock kit that would have this kind of pretty wood?

[@beckflintlocks]

Flintlocks.com Jim Chambers has a left handed kit, ask for upgrade fancy curly maple

[@johnmoore8067]

@@beckflintlocks Thanks.

[@johnmoore8067]

@@beckflintlocks Thanks. I'll check it out.

[@BugsBunny-st8lf]

The Kibler locks may look like the Chambers...wich looks like originals... BUT: the quality of the Kibler locks is by far much higher than all others in the marked. In the next few years, no other than Jim Kibler will be on the marked. TOW is already decreasing its product range

[@beckflintlocks]

Time will tell, Kibler kits are pretty much disassembled guns in the white. There is a large percentage of people that enjoy building. And that’s your opinion, i would put the Williamsburg Forge CNC lock against kibler all day.

[@ericjohnson8571]

Where’s the best place to get patch boxes and other brass inlays and hardware? Thanks again

[@beckflintlocks]

I make my own, but you could try track of the wolf

[@garydavis9887]

thx !

[@beckflintlocks]

No problem!

[@Peter-od7op]

Its really hard to beat kibler kits.

[@BobLadal]

i got a triditions kentucky rifel kit and i lost one of the barrel pins. can i use a brass rod as a replacement??

[@beckflintlocks]

I’d use steel or iron. But brass will work in a pinch.

[@edglass9912]

What type of barrels do these folks use. I have heard that Rice makes a good one. Ed from Lynchburg

[@beckflintlocks]

Chambers uses Rice, Track of the wolf you get to pick.

[@robertlittle511]

Cool man cool

[@maplebrew]

Any suggestions / recommendations for left handed? I’ve contacted Jim and he is not tooling up for a 30% market increase. I’d even be ok with a right sided lock as long as the stock is cast on and cheek pad was swapped w patch box

[@beckflintlocks]

Chambers has a left handed kit

[@davefellhoelter1343]

Ned Flander's The Leftorium? in Springfield, Bart's Neighbor

[@wagon9082]

good video

[@beckflintlocks]

Glad you enjoyed

[@strangleholdoutdoors]

Question? Do I need an FFL to build and sell muzzleloaders?

[@beckflintlocks]

Questions concerning law should always be asked to legal professionals.

[@strangleholdoutdoors]

@beckflintlocks8829 well I guess the answer is no. Thanks for the knowledge.

[@henryostrander6282]

No licence on black powder

[@johnmine5609]

check local laws as a few states require ffl transfers.

[@trevorfitzgerald4996]

Do track of the wolf export there kits to Australia Kibler and chambers don't.

[@beckflintlocks]

That i don’t know, if go to their website and give them An email.

[@joeeckley5272]

My pocketbook doesn't allow me to even sniff one of those high priced, overrated drinks.

[@beckflintlocks]

Get them at msrp. $60 just have to be at the right store at the right time