Changing Death into Glory | Jonathan Pageau EP 7

This episode was recorded on November 11th, 2021
Tammy Peterson welcomes guest, Jonathan Pageau, once more to discuss a diverse range of topics from a Catholic-Christian point of view. Specifically, touching on the Passion of Christ, the crime He was said to have committed, the tragedy of Pontius Pilate, and more.
Jonathan Pageau is a French Canadian symbolic thinker, KZbinr, editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal, an eastern orthodox icon carver extraordinaire, and explorer of how (underlying) symbolic patterns emerge, develop, and finally manifest in religion, art, pop culture, etc.
Find more from Jonathan Pageau on
Twitter: / pageaujonathan
KZbin: / jonathanpageau
Instagram: / jonathan.pageau
- Chapters -
[04:09] - Jesus and Barabbas
[07:49] - Changing Death Into Glory
[10:29] - Jesus’ Crime
[24:16] - The Dance of Structure of Freedom
[30:24] - True Power Comes from Above
[35:33] - Money Alone Doesn’t Help Anything
[45:09] - The Tragedy of Pontius Pilate
[54:41] - The Crude Dance between Structure and Anti-structure

[@dentellier]

I’m loving your interviews with Jonathan Pageau. There is so much wisdom, sincerity, and humility. I’m super inspired by your journey into faith. I’m looking forward to listening to more of your interviews. Thank you 🙏🙏

[@lukegriner2435]

Love hearing you and Jonathan talk.

[@Chibblechabble]

I love hearing these talks, they strengthen my love of people and Christ. God bless you and your family!

[@danieladimitrova459]

I worked as a social worker for a few years and I have to say I love the way you talk about helping people. It is tricky to find the balance between giving too much of yourself and not giving enough, especially for a young person, who is taking their first steps in the field. It is also hard to know what and how to give. This is a topic that is so close to me and now, that I am occupied in another field, I am realizing that I miss it. Thank you for mentioning it. It would be a pleasure to hear you speaking with someone in the social work field.

[@shaynemoore6736]

I’ve been trying to really limit my online viewing and listening, but once in awhile I’ve been treating myself to a video:) I’m trying to choose something that provides both nourishment and new understanding, and ur videos have been doing this for me:) I do recommend the Freddie and Paul show on Paul Vanderklays channel, lol, cuz it always uplifts me to see people sharing God’s love in everyday language. Your discussions with Jonathan also show this love and I think it is just what our world needs🙏

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

Yes, The Freddie and Paul Show is at the heart of things for me. It reminds me of the Great Medieval Understanding of Mercy, blazing out from their images often right beside the beauty of the cathedral. It is always the person we judge as weaker who shines forth as the example.

[@sherieharkins2460]

Agree on the limitation, very aware I am missing opportunity to hear from God when I am always listening elsewhere, even when the content is amazing!

[@shaynemoore6736]

@@sherieharkins2460 yes:)

[@profeh3346]

Thank God for these conversations - and for Tammy and Jonathan following what seems to me as divine inspiration to create them. Much love and gratitude. ❤

[@calpol3314]

Thank you for sharing this Tammy and Jonathan. I am very much thankful to listen to your conversation at the same time have a deep dive on the scriptures. God bless you both.

[@ericanderson735]

Wow! What an unbelievable conversation, the relation between these stories and modern times is so clear, it’ seems to be replaying its self over and over because we don’t seem to be able to keep this knowledge over multiple generations. It gets lost or muddled up and people stop being so attentive and it all falls apart. So scary with the technology of today ontop of it. Very very frightening.

[@andreiamelo1389]

🙏🙏💕💕 Thank you for those pod casts and spreading those messages. Give hope, knowledge and more wisdom.

[@JuditHerman]

This actually made me cry. Thank you for this interview. As for the “obscure traditions” speaking about Pilates’s conversion, this is a major theme in Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita - a true “fractal”, a novel in a novel. (What a genius idea to write a novel about Jesus and place it inside a novel about a writer who writes a novel about Jesus...) - Кто это сделал? (Who did it?) Levi, a disciple of Jesus, asks Pilate referring to the killing of Judas on the same night Jesus was buried. - Это сделал я. (I did it.) - answers Pilate. Levi is speechless, and so it the reader. This is one of the moments in literature when you put the novel down and fall on your knees and pray - regardless of your religion or the lack thereof. In this narrative meeting Jesus was enough to convert Pilate who was set on a path because Jesus had to die in order for the resurrection to happen, it was decided and prophesized long before. You can see the tragedy of Pilate in this painting: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/Ecce_homo_by_Antonio_Ciseri_%281%29.jpg He is begging, almost cowering in front of the angry crowd, trying to bargain for this man’s life, but he finds no mercy with them. And the two women behind him, one full of compassion, the other - with her back turned - filled with grief. She must be Pilate’s wife. She knows. The scary thing is that if you read the New Testament with Bulgakov’s story in mind, this plot actually fits into the biblical narrative. In the novel a stunned Levi asks for a piece of parchment and a pen - this is all he asks of the most important man of the Roman empire who has just offered him a career and a life in safety. And then he leaves. He leaves and we know what he sets out to write... We know because his real name is - Matthew. (Luke 5,27)

[@eli_escoto_]

Amazing stuff! I especially loved the deep dive into who Barabas was and what he represented - then juxtaposing that with the implications that Pilot was wrestling with... "Either the totalising state, or the revolutionary breakdown. That's what happens when you don't have the true purpose, the true meaning." - Brilliant. Our Churches should take a similar approach when walking their youth and young adults through these stories. We have to.

[@quentissential]

Lovely questions. Beautiful answers. Truthful dialogue and good conversation. What a great listen. I enjoy you sharing these.

[@06rtm]

I would love to see these continue

[@fisher5309]

Oh Jonathan is such a great friend to have who can answer all the bible study questions.. Thanks for sharing this Tammy. God bless. 😊

[@sherieharkins2460]

Thank you for sharing this conversation. Appreciate the example of humility in you both, and Tammy I love the questions you are always asking about personal application.

[@DigitalGnosis]

0:50 When Tammy says that "it's more likely that people who try to fix things are going to destroy them" I think that this is an empirical claim and organisations like the Effective Altruism movement have actually quantified the harm and benefits of donating money in particular ways for example.

[@jasonrowe3847]

We cannot be "prepared." It's a matter of being able to sustain ourselves in the face of the misery.

[@janjamroz8125]

Of four fascinating disscusions with JP you had so far this one for some reason was the most interesting.

[@Mercyme57]

Tammy has a stillness and depth that is very engaging; this, combined with the gentle humility of her enquiring is very compelling and attractive. No wonder Jordan loves her so.

[@jackiek4159]

Loved this conversation so much! Thank you Tammy and Jonathan! 🙏🏻💞✨

[@HrvojeSL]

Very interesting conversation. The dichotomy of loyalty to Barabbas and then the emperor is something I never saw. Thank you for this video. Much respect to you both. God bless

[@RodrigoMera]

Great Stuff, I pray the rosary daily and this brought more depth to it. Thanks!

[@duckslinger999]

Thank you again Tammy and Jonathan.

[@TamraGlaserVoice]

More of these please.

[@gerridalton1345]

Thank you both .That was wonderful.God is still in charge.. Continue doing these interviews please.🙏☘️

[@meganturner1456]

You are a beautiful woman Tammy and I so appreciate this discussion

[@ashleygrace7772]

I find these conversations strangely sooothing to listen to

[@silvinasi]

This was a great conversation. Thank you both. I really appreciate the deep understanding of JP bringing light to the patterns in the Story and your bringing it to our everyday life and concrete steps and decisions.

[@yhalee345]

Enjoyed this conversation and Bible Study!

[@so_she_said]

Thank you Tammy for this channel! 🙏🌷❤️

[@nazarethforest8313]

'Bar Abbas' means in Aramaic literally the 'Son of the Father', just like Jesus called himself (therefore the spiritual conumdrum) Thank you for these wonderful podcasts

[@monicsala6639]

You look beautiful! Love the hair cut.

[@betterdaysahead3746]

Thank you for sharing this Tammy. It is a blessing. Love you both.

[@camillaluckey4136]

True that sharing often leads to troublesome attachments. But we are led to relationships by divine purpose. As Jonathan said (at a different point) they are salvific. The choice is not ours.

[@seantoal5261]

didn't even know you had a podcast, I'll enjoy listening to this :)

[@zita-lein]

Loved this!

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

This is peak - Godbless it

[@pamelasuarez5318]

7:50 They resemble our choices because as Pilatis took the stance of washing his hands / as if he did not have an authority and left Jesus in the arms of the peoples decision even if it was unjust. The same sometimes we as people or people in our life will could wash our hands to Gods name Also the soldiers show how even in our carnality and evilness they were moved and were part of the plan to complete the scriptures let’s say God was still using them by permitting their mockery to set a point, likewise in our carnality and evil GOD CAN STILL use us so That his name will be glorified, and to put to shame those who persecute us .

[@TammyPetersonPodcast]

Thank you for you reply

[@SB_McCollum]

@37:00 about helping people by means of money, she couldn’t be more right. Once you start giving face to face, to someone you know and who knows you, they start looking your way every time they have something coming up that requires money. They don’t call you because they like you, they call to make sure you’re still willing to give more even tho they have the cash to meet their current need. I’ve had to stop answering the phone every time, “help” can become transactional to people you’ve known for years and the sense of peer friendship disappears.

[@jimmyintheswamp]

I'm just happy Jesus never refuses to answer my calls, despite whether or not I already have what I need to survive.

[@SB_McCollum]

I'm glad, too, but we don't become Christ like by becoming a doormat, it doesn't help them to look at you (or us) to BE their Christ. The person I was thinking of when I wrote this abruptly ended the relationship when I would not submit to their idea of spirituality that would hopefully produce the results they wanted. The had a view that if I didn't perform acts of prayer or giving that supplied their need, then I was Wrong, capital W. They have big needs, but we don't supply someone else's needs, we participate in God's supply as He directs. Sometimes, in our mere mortality, we try to manipulate others into a strangle hold, "You MUST help me or you're not a good Christian." Frankly, the end of that friendship was a great relief, my conscience is totally clear, it needed to end, for their sake and mine. We can't save people, only God saves. @@jimmyintheswamp

[@GetUnlabeled]

Tammy, short hair is perfect for you! Beautiful

[@LiamSeeksTheLord]

This was wonderful

[@the2ndcoming135]

Proverbs 29:10((A.S.V.))✝️

[@manubishe]

10 years ago "Simpsons" lead the public discourse, Today it's the "Petersons" .

[@julieredmond5192]

Tammy!

[@profeh3346]

About the time Jonathan mentioned the parallel to what is happening in our world today - I started wondering if there were any parallels to be drawn with…. (Dare I say it - but if we are to find ourselves within the examples that Christ’s life?!) Trump?! Or is it because I’m listening to this on April 5 2023 - the day after his arrest? Anybody else finding themselves wondering if there is any significance to Trump being arrested during Holy Week?

[@parkermize]

❤

[@MsDamosmum]

I was just thinking if Pilot had listened to his wife and let Jesus go then Gods purpose for Jesus would not have been fulfilled. It made me wonder who caused her to have that dream? This is where I get really confused by region. Sometimes people appear to HAVE TO do the wrong thing in order to fulfil Gods mission?!! It fries my noodle 🤪

[@dok2085]

I don't think so, Jesus did say that scandal must come but woe to the person through whom it comes. The crowd already wanted to kill him and could have killed him themselves 😁 My point is that just because you refuse to be the vehicle of evil doesn't mean that this evil is not going to happen if it must happen. And at the same time the fact that God can use this evil for your good doesn't excuse the fact that you did evil. His mercy is doing this because of Jesus, and mercy is not something people are entitled to have, it is a gift.

[@vb6548]

Since God is infinite and all powerful, doesn't it mean a sacrifice from him is 0, or meaningless?

[@jimmyintheswamp]

Not at all. Only an infinite payment is capable of forgiving an infinite debt. Humanity, being fickle and finite could not possibly atone for their transgression against an infinite God. This is why the Incarnation was NECESSARY (and fitting) for the salvation of humanity. God became flesh in Jesus Christ: 100% divine and 100% human. As the God-man only Jesus could both satisfy the requirements of infinite justice by freely giving His own life as payment AND offer His own humanity to the Father so as to reestablish the covenant between Creator & creature. Even today Jesus advocates for us before the Father for the forgiveness of our sins. This is a fundamental truth of the Christian faith. Is my (woefully inadequate) explanation at all helpful?

[@vb6548]

@@jimmyintheswamp Yes thanks, it made senes to me

[@julieredmond5192]

Goody gumdrops!

[@tristanwarsal3423]

Damn and I thought JP was harsh

[@gusleybighusley6062]

lmao

[@TammyPetersonPodcast]

Hee hee

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

I have a feeling Tammy might love to read Dante’s Commedia…if she hasn’t already……

[@JordonHill]

For me this made the devils trinity appear. The emperor is the anti-father, Barrabas is the anti christ, and the spirit spread by the Sanhedrin is the anti-holy spirit. But I don’t know where/how Pilate fits in this trinity.

[@rasmusmller625]

maybe Pilate is us.

[@Yamikaiba123]

I don't know if Jonathan forwarded you my gospel compilation or not yet, since I didn't read back from him. So here is a link to it on Google Drive, if this makes it past KZbin's automatic bouncer: drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-gHM16cQUIF1igPLf1S4p7S1BRrkYRbj

[@twoshea749]

Tammy - Jordan is getting overly influenced by his new friends - balance and order my dear woman-

[@TammyPetersonPodcast]

Thanks for your comment. What exactly are you referring to?

[@amybowman9906]

Some of the money discussion felt a bit self righteous and lost me. I don't worry about what the person on the street does with the dollar I give them. If I did I would justify never giving to anyone. I've never heard a priest or holy person caution against generosity to anyone for any reason.

[@thesecondlawandthetowerhou6026]

Saint Francis Saint Catherine It isn’t really sacrifice. It is sheer joy of creating meaning. Tripping with the spirits, literally. The saints understood the madness of it all.

[@elektrotehnik94]

Tammy never said she's a holy person :D Neither do I. :D

[@amybowman9906]

@@elektrotehnik94 oh no, I wasn't suggesting that she did, simply saying that some of the ideas are not consistent with what other saints and holy ppl have said, at least within the Orthodox tradition. I believe she is Catholic so I cannot speak for them.

[@elektrotehnik94]

@@amybowman9906 Aha, well yeah, fair enough. . Most of these types of episodes are people stumbling the best we can & this is not "make sure it's according to the way our nomination understands things"... far from it :D But fair enough, I understand.

[@drewsimon9652]

That's a fair observation. I appreciated it because I am surrounded by those who believe, and sometimes myself believe, that if I only earned more to give and provide I would be able to fix it all. However, when I think this, I am reminded of the verse "those who are faithful with little, will be faithful with much." Therefore, what am I doing today that fulfills my purpose? Also, what Jonathan said regarding the nun in a community being more valuable than a bag of money hit hard. Reminded me of the parapable of the widow with 2 pennies vs the Pharisees. The smaller value of money is worth more to God because of the faith, trust, and attention given when it is a much higher % for the widow. Money is not evil or wrong, it is just a tool and requires stewardship; the same can and should be doubly said for one's time and attention, which is sometimes even more important than money. Imagine Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, money can provide all the physical and some of the comforts that allow for higher levels. But the emotional, social and finally spiritual self actualization stages can only be given voluntarily with close attention from a true person.

[@davidmehari3631]

The holy spirit is Gods form of existance or invisible identity not somebody with its own personalty and body. Jesus christ is the visible identity of God. Meaning God manfisted in a flesh through his word.Remember Jesus have another name recived through the angel " a child is born fo us his name will be Emanuel" Mathew 1:22-23 Emanuel means "God with us" that shows the invisible God manifested in a visible bodly form.1Thimothy 3:16.This was 700 years ago profsised by Isaya 9:6 .when it talkes about jesus as a father and a mighty God for to us a child is born ,to us a son is given and the governent will be on his shoulders.And he will be called wonderful Counceler , a mighty God .everlasing father , prince of peace.so we see here Jesus is both the father and son.not in t2 bodly form but in one body. But we have to remember here that there is only ONE God who is the God of Abraham , Isak, jakob Moses. Isaia speaks about this only God where there is no other God .Isaia 45:21-22 Declare what is to be , present it let them take counsel together .who foretold this long ago ,who declared it from the distant past ?was it not i,the lord and there is no God apart from me , a righteous God and savior there is non but me ."turn to me and be saved all you ends of the earth for i am God ,and there is no other".So we must understand here he is talking about Jesus is not the 3rd or 2nd God when he talks about God ship or divinity. so please read other verses that can help you to know the identity of Jesus Christ .Isaia:43:10-12 , Isaia 44.6 Isaia:64:1-4 Isaia 52:3-6.after we read these verses let us move t the new testament the book of john 1:9 -12 "the true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world , he was in the world , and though the world was made through him , the world did not recognize him.he came to that which was his own , but his own did not receive him . ,to hose who believed in his name he gave the right to become children of God. The reason why the Jews could not receive him was 2 things . 1st he came through a very humble family.2nd He claims not only the son of god but also he Is God .John 14:7-11 "if you had known me ,you would have known y Father also;henceforth you know him and have seen him.this is a very bold move of Jesus that he is telling his apostles they have seen him."don’t you know me, philip ,even after i have been among you such a long time ?Don’t you believe that i am in the father ,and that the father is in me? So we can see the invisible God through Jesus christ who is Son and father at sae time in one visible body.so when we talk about spirit or holy spirit is the inivisibility of identity of God at same time jesus christ. So here we can underline the te is no 3 God identified by , God Father , God son, God holy spirit. this notion takes to the Pagan nation which takes us to wrong direction. The bottom line is the the cause of the Crucifixion of Jesus is the lack of knowledge of the identity of Of Him.The jews worship one God and Jesus can not be the 2nd God. They were correct God is one but he can change his forms. He came with different Human forms . But whe he speak to them As pure God and Human the became confused because of their sin.God is not a confusion God if we approach him humbly and genuinely. The whole world still can not understand the identity of Jesus christ. The Name Jesus the only One name Represents the name Of God . YAHWHE ="I AM" There is only one Name In the whole universe . The Name is Called "Jesus" .this name is the name of Father, Son and Holy spirit. Collosianse 3 :17 FILIPP 2:9-11.I hope at least this gives the opportunity to ask a lot of question .There we can show our honesty for obeying the word of God and how we have concern for truth .

[@stephenjackson7797]

Believe in fantasies much? Channel blocked.

[@so_she_said]

To say that Christ had to die is like thanking Judas for selling him. I disagree the way he presented it. But ok.

[@jimmyintheswamp]

In the context of the sacrificial system of Judaism, Jesus indeed had to die. Not only to fulfill the requirements of God's justice: atonement for original sin and the salvation of the world, but ALSO to fulfill the Messianic prophecies of the Hebrew scriptures.

[@so_she_said]

I said "but ok"... Because I understand but at the same time he should be more careful with the way he is phrasing it. Jesus didn't have to die He did it willingly .... While at the same time it is not a suicide neither is it a complot of God with puppet people because then where is the free will? He said Pilat shouldn't have let him live. No he should, obviously. He just didn't for his own reasons. I was just bothered by the way he said that, it was wrong.

[@charliecampbell6851]

@@so_she_said not wrong. It was God's plan to sacrifice himself.