NHS safety fears: are less qualified staff replacing doctors?

[@ushapadminiV]

Pa's are meant to work with the physicians and assist them,they should not replace them

[@HappyAwesomePower]

They shouldn’t exist flat out. They offer absolutely nothing to the health service - if you disagree then please kindly explain to me what their role is meant to be. Assist doctors? How? Take bloods? That’s a phlebotomist. Scribe notes? That’s a clerk. Take observations? That’s part of the nursing role.

[@unatwomey7112]

Should anyone have ever trusted the Tories. Sunak skipped one important govt meeting to fly to San Francisco to hawk parts of the NHS. The "let the bodies pile high" guys.

[@James-j4e9k]

They don't. The Physician is the Consultant, only a Consultant can cover a Consultant shift. A lot of these shifts "covered" by both PAs/ANPs/ACPs (most of which are very knowledgeable and discuss all their patients with a Consultant and/or the Consultant will also review the patient if any concerns), are shifts of a junior grade of F1/F2 doctor no higher. They cannot cover registrar or consultant shifts. A lot of the time, these shifts are in places such as ED, have been offered out to doctors, but they did not take the shifts up. The PA/ANP etc then covers it.

[@justadude8369]

@@James-j4e9k A nurse shouldnt cover a doctors shift of any grade. They dont have the same level of training or skills.

[@James-j4e9k]

@@justadude8369 I agree, doctors should cover doctor shifts.

[@kevinwilliams1768]

this is frightening & unacceptable

[@anjusree1561]

PAs cannot replace doctors,it's unfair to patients !!!!!

[@chiragshetty4608]

It's way cheaper so the hospital, surgery etc supports it.

[@piotrwojdelko1150]

they will replace the GP giving instead the pharmacist then,by 2026 every pharmacist will have to be a clinician

[@prasanta5139]

Cheaper long term, but it creates friction when they get £50-55k off the bat compared to junior doctor who has studied specifically for medical knowledge for longer

[@James-j4e9k]

​@@prasanta5139 they get paid mid-point band 6 for one year, then bottom band 7 after that. So nowhere near £50k

[@andrewreece7312]

@James-j4e9k You're clearly a PA.

[@risetv1]

i am confused why there are so many doctors are unemployed but they are happy to replace them with PA's. The GMC are losing all credibility.

[@harismohammad2005]

With the doctors who are unemployed they are often newly qualified doctors aka junior doctors as they were previously known. Now they are known as residency doctors I believe. These doctors often complete their degree successfully but then are left stranded in limbo, as in order to progress in medicine and get a job they have to complete their FY1 and FY2. FY1 must be completed in the UK in the NHS, FY2 may with permission be completed outside of the UK in a GMC accepted country and once FY1 is completed. Many of these doctors are not getting allocated places to complete their FY1 and FY2 leaving them unemployed some have been waiting 2 years for a place! This has led to some of these doctors to seek out other jobs entirely and retrain in another sector. For some they may get a place, but may as well have forgotten some of their medical knowledge due to the timeframe between getting a placement and finishing their degree essentially de-skilling them. PA’s don’t have an FY1 or FY2 so are able to practice as soon as they are qualified. This makes it more appealing to employ them. Really the GMC should create an exception where students can complete their FY1 and FY2 outside the UK and in the private sector.

[@princessa3399]

@@harismohammad2005 If this is the case, more FY1 positions should be provided to allow these doctors to continue their training. The solution should not be to choose PA. In all of this, patients receive lower-quality care.

[@robparker1742]

As a doctor I can add to this, it's not just newly qualified doctors struggling for employment. More and more doctors are becoming unemployed because there aren't enough specialty training places after they finish foundation program (this is despite there being constant staff shortages in every specialty and thousands of unfilled consultant posts that we're not training enough people to fill)

[@harismohammad2005]

@@princessa3399 Indeed their should be however they can’t as @robparker1742 has correctly said their aren’t enough training spots available for these doctors both in FY1 and FY2 and after they finish these programs. Many consultants are often having to train more than a ‘safe’ level of junior doctors under their supervision which they themselves are not happy with doing. It really shows how underfunded and ill planned the future of the NHS has been as the only way to rectify the situation is to either wait until the number of consultants, more senior junior doctors, nurses and pharmacists increase (which will take many many years, especially with the current ‘bottleneck’ so to speak) to expand capacity for the number of doctors who can have a junior doctor placement and specialty placement or to allow training in a different country entirely. Looking at it, the situation is quite frankly a mess their is no way around it, regardless of how amazing an idea is in reducing lists or pushing patients out of hospital we have too few working doctors and allied health staff to support them. The issue has never been the fact healthcare staff are working too slow or inefficiently, it has been there are too few of them. Sadly and horribly many patients will die and have died before this situation gets better as an indirect consequence of this very issue. Funding has still not been adequately provided to sort this issue so it doesn’t look like it’s going to get better rather much worse.

[@edjones3410]

Its a clown show

[@xFF7xGIRLx]

Absolutely! I've seen 4 different doctors at my health centre over the past 2 months to help figure out and treat why I'm having stomach pains, and each doctor is telling me something different!

[@mohienamjad3271]

Also, build more hospitals. Get more people on board with a good work culture, and then there's more jobs.

[@JohnJones-k9d]

That happened under Labour, but less work is done now than before.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

Not a bad idea. What have you personally don’t to help achieve anything of this? How is your work ethic? Have u been involved in local fundraising ? What have u contributed to your local community?

[@ElizabethPerez-db1xc]

It is deceitful how they pose as the GP and do not disclse thry in fact aren't. Twice I have been misdiagnosed because of them.

[@MusicLover88321]

Yeah yeah yeah stop with the lies

[@JJ-qd9yl]

Me too. I had one go on a rant about her plantar facitis and saying i had it without an examination when i had ankle pain due to past sprains

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

So u telling Drs don’t misdiagnose? Well done

[@paulsmith1035]

This is the result of the brain drain impacting NHS which is effectively now a training school to export talent overseas once qualified and improve other countries healthcare systems

[@veggienugnugs]

I think this is a move to create an NHS workforce that can't emigrate because other countries won't accept their lack of qualifications

[@frasersteen]

Let's not forget pa's cost more than more highly trained doctors

[@isaacingleby8771]

You mean less

[@mugen913]

He means more

[@frasersteen]

@@isaacingleby8771 I do mean more. A doctor with 5 years of medical school starts on around 2/3rds of what a PA starts on with only 2 years of medical training. That doctor would have to work for (I think) 7 years before they earn more than a PA starting at the same time.

[@James-j4e9k]

​@@frasersteenand an ANP gets paid over £50000 with no training in things like Gynaecology etc or extensive exams testing clinical knowledge...? An F1 doesn't have a GMC number so not quite a highly trained doctor, a registrar or Consultant on the otherhand is. PAs don't get paid near that wage and also have no pay progression.

[@user-fd5qx9hr6q]

@@James-j4e9k that's incorrect information.

[@samjones5449]

Initially a good idea to take pressure off junior doctors by fulfilling some of the more routine tasks on wards - poor staffing levels throughout the NHS has led to them being overused and put in positions well beyond their level of training, often on higher pay than juniors. Job role and pay bands need reviewing and name changed to physician assistant (like in the US).

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

PAs are trained in general medicine, and have strong skills please note they are postgrads! Therefore mature students. They were created to compliment Drs. Supervision is mainly to ensure their task is not beyond their scope. They collaborate with the Drs they are not “assistants” they don’t assist to do anything they work according to their scope of practice. What do you mean by “overuse” that’s a subjective term, the whole healthcare system is facing challenges which has led employers to use PAs beyond their scope but this occurs across every aspects nurses HCAS doctors. Their job role is well define, they pay is according to normal NHS banding why should they have a separate one? Finally this argument they payed more than Junior doctors is so weak is utter nonsense

[@samjones5449]

@ I am well aware of what a PA is - plenty of xp there bud. 1. The problem is they no longer compliment doctors and are simply used as an excuse to not increase training places. Your point about supervision only applies if they are regulated correctly which they often are not in struggling health boards. 2. How can you say the job role is well defined and then say that employers use them beyond their scope? That is my exact argument. 3. A new PA in the northwest is currently paid more than an F1/F2. What is weak about suggesting that a doctor with 5 years medical training + 1 year on the job should maybe be paid more than someone who’s converted a geography degree to become a hobby doctor.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

@ what do you mean by you have plenty of experience? Have u worked with PAs? Or you simply google it and come to conclusion. 1. Who told you that they no longer compliment? How did u come to this conclusion? In 20 years in the UK PAs have done an outstanding job and only now all the bad press this looks so suspicious! I’m not that stupid to believe UK media like most!. Now all is blamed on PAs which is absolutely bad! PA were introduced to deal with the shortage in the workforce! Drs take 5+ years to train. Once again PAs are postgraduate and it 2 years which allows quicker and cost effective way to “boost” healthcare. I read that PAs will be regulated in December. I’m not sure why this was not done prior?! Well, UK government at its finest! This is not the PA fault! Once again their scope is well define a quick google search and some actual reading will make u realise that I’m not sure why you so angry with PAs. Once again define your experience with PAs. PAs are used beyond their scope, there are plenty of articles heck even TV series showing how F1/F2 doctors work beyond their scope and plenty of errors occur! Even if they are regulated reality is far different from the sci-fi scenario u depict. Therefore, it’s not specific to PA!! Once again salary, like I said it’s a weak one because dr will go on and make significantly more after f2!! Too weak of an argument. PAs profession don’t work like that. Also, if junior doctors ops now resident Drs don’t like it they can just move abroad and make real money! Guess what PAs can’t do that!

[@therealrobertbirchall]

A nurse is better trained than a PA and works harder doing all the dirty work as well. And the get sacked if they even think about claiming the are more qualified than the really are.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

@@therealrobertbirchall What do you mean by “better trained” and in what way? Define “work harder” because it seems you lack understanding of how healthcare operates. Nurses aren’t the only ones who work hard! the entire NHS is carried by individuals who sacrifice their lives for others. Everyone contributes, including PAs, doctors, and other professionals. As for being “sacked” that claim makes no sense. Guidance for PAs should come from the appropriate regulatory bodies like the GMC, not doctors or other groups creating their own rules. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here, but it doesn’t hold up.

[@anilasharma2371]

Should I cancel my forthcoming surgery? How would I know who has the instrument in their hand?

[@sujavadanan6046]

Don’t cancel your surgery. Ask as to who will perform the surgery and let them know about your concern. Good luck.

[@thomasranjit7781]

Please go to India and get it done, period. The best doctors are in India.

[@scarred10]

its always a surgeon ,not just adoctor and never a PA,they may assist however

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

Cancel it and go private for triple the price. Good luck

[@sumz1721]

I made an emergency appt for my children & ended up getting these PAs for their emergency appt. Like hello? What?!!

[@edjones3410]

A recent audit in my region found that on average Physician associates working in GP are making 7 times the amount of referrals to secondary care compared to GPs. Its creating massive inefficiencies, inappropriate referrals, unnecessary investigations and increasing waiting times.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

Same people that complain that they never get referred. Which one do you want ?

[@edjones3410]

@@trashtalktrolling8853Well If people want to see specialists for no good reason, they are going to have to pay for it with higher taxes or longer waits.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

@@edjones3410 how does that link to PAs? Which region do you live in so I can see this audit you’re talking about? What do you mean by “massive insufficiency, unnecessary investigations etc” 7 times? How many PAs work in your region? Because 7 times is a huge claim. Also provide context and what and which referrals? Do you know that these don’t have to be accepted by secondary care many GP referral get rejected too and they convert to advice and guidance. So how is this inefficient? If a PA or GP or nurse refer me I’d be more than happy to be seen. Isn’t the same UK population saying that GPs don’t listen to them few years ago? All u guys do is complain but nothing is ever good enough. When you run out of argument you start saying “tax payers bla bla bla”. There is a culture of being ungrateful for care. Let me ask you this, have u lived in a rural places? Have you travelled and tried to get access to care in other countries? If so, what have you learnt? . You can’t immagine how good you have until you see other parts of the world my friend. Instead of bashing PAs the public should encourage better access to care and actually try to save the NHS. I don’t blame you channels like BBC and channel 4 have prove to us that as long it’s click bait they don’t care who’s lives it ruins. Again, I’ll be waiting for links to this audit you claim cuz for now it’s just “trust me bro”

[@misterfunnybones]

The social improvements of the 20th century are over. 21st century decline.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

Come up with a solution then

[@OliverCampbell-f6x]

@@trashtalktrolling8853 just ban socialism, defund the NHS give each person £500 a year to pay for health insurance. If you spend it on crack you die oh well. The NHS doesn’t work.

[@OliverCampbell-f6x]

@@trashtalktrolling8853 even if we give everyone £2000 a year we still make a massive saving and then the free market and competition will mean we have proper health care.

[@kkr110]

In GP surgeries, there are also Clinical Pharmacists, Nurse Practitioners and Paramedics who diagnose and treat patients. Why are PAs the only targeted?

[@snsn7251]

Because they are the only ones who do not know their boundaries.

[@chrisbronsdon624]

Because when a patient sees a nurse, a pharmacist or a paramedic, they will know they are seeing a nurse, a pharmacist or a paramedic. Patients seeing someone with "physician" in their job title may, and often will, understandably think are seeing a physician - a doctor! Physician associates themselves should be leading the call for a change in their job title.

[@juliegale3863]

@@chrisbronsdon624Wrong, I did not know I was not seeing a GP Doctor. I only sussed something was different when they took some blood, I had in my long life never seen GP doctor take blood, always referred to the practice nurse. As it turned out I had never had better treatment than from this Nurse Practitioner.

[@chrisbronsdon624]

@@juliegale3863 That's a problem then with the nurse then not introducing her-self / himself clearly, and not wearing a visible name badge with job title. I'm a GP, and always wear a name badge. The issue with "physicians associates" is that they are not physicians. It's literally a nonsense title.

[@pierzing.glint1sh76]

@@snsn7251 GP partners are just as bad. though hiring PA's to see the majority of patients so that they can keep more of the money and earn more profit. I know PAs up here in Yorkshire, who see the majority of the patient workload that the GP should be seeing and the GP partner doesnt bother to hire a GP. Because the patients aren't complaining and are just happy to be seen by someone. They even end up trusting the PA's more than the occasional locum doctor hire. This is not safe, but the patients don't know any better. Can we really pin this on PAs and say that they don't know their boundaries? I'm not sure. They also don't know any better and just want to see as many patients and learn as much as possible. If there arent any doctors, they're the ones who are going to be asked to step up and we see this all over the country.

[@aa-bs3dn]

there is something called PA, something between doctor and nurse, i don't understand how a nurse to do doctor's job.

[@scarred10]

they arent nurses and dont do doctors jobs

[@DileepaRanawake]

Good to see this. Increase doctors and nurses wages. More people will want to train as them. We need to ensure our NHS is not destroyed by cost cutting and stealth privatisation. Renationalise our NHS.

[@unatwomey7112]

They voted out the Tories to create the NHS after the war. The same had to be done to save the NHS now.

[@JohnJones-k9d]

@@unatwomey7112the NHS was a conservative idea not Labour, the ones who fought the creation of the nhs were the doctors.

[@beaker1068]

Which part of the nhs isn’t private ? GP’s? Hospital trusts ? Dentists ?

[@Preeno]

Wish doctor!

[@FHA11853]

Better than lazy GPs

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

Shein patient

[@whackeryounis]

People working in healthcare have known about this for the past few years. It's taken this long for it to become public

[@mohienamjad3271]

And judging by the shifts in the video... The heads of hospitals are just gonna start using them as filler. People be damed.

[@mrsmunaks]

Someone told me physician associates are doing g+c scopes. These are lawsuits waiting to happen. Scary 😢

[@stepho9999]

Are these Physician Associates working in Private hospitals ? or just NHS hospitals ? ...SIMPLY ASK TO SEE A QUALIFIED DOCTOR and refuse treatment from a space filler with 2 years training A VET HAS TO UNDER GO MORE .

[@scarred10]

you re totally uneducated about the role, theyre not doctor substutes AND THEY DO NOT MAKE CLINICAL DECISIONS IN ISOLATION.

[@stepho9999]

@@scarred10 No matter how much lipstick you put on it ...still corner cutting ...Yes

[@scarred10]

@@stepho9999 the role is safe if suitably implemented but in some cases you hear about they are not

[@stepho9999]

​@@scarred10 I have no confidence in the NHS after all the horror stories of imported so called Nurses with Dodgy qualifications.It is obvious that the Administration needs over hauling from top to bottom.

[@scarred10]

@@stepho9999 nurses usually wont kill anyone since they just administer doctor orders.Most staff in NHS are imported but the nurses are usually good.

[@Danb99977]

Uk is doomed 😢 u can’t get to see doctors anymore what a shock 😳

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

So Drs are saviours of humanity?

[@MAGICALWOLVESSs]

NHS has gone down. Nurses has come down a band to become health care assistants. Bullying is another problem in the NHS.

[@hivemistressherguineapigfa8563]

I'll take a skilled doctor not a cheaper 'associate', thanks.

[@princessa3399]

It's absurd that these associates, with only two years of training, are replacing doctors who have at least seven years.

[@veggienugnugs]

They're paid more

[@zidan6343]

@@princessa3399 The 2 year training figure is misleading and meant for shock value. Yes the PA course is 2 years, but you need a 3 year undergrad degree in order to get in. Most of the time in a healthcare field (e.g. nurse, paramedic, physio etc) with 2 years post grad work experience. So we're talking 5 to 7 years of total training and experiences for PAs. Most PAs I knew have been paramedics or nurses for several years before taking on the PA role because their previous role became stagnant for them.

[@lizmac8819]

That's just working in the NHS ,Bullying harassment and hating on each other

[@lizmac8819]

Try being disabled their attitude is you can work just don't work for us and that's how the NHS treats disabled people

[@ainerush8942]

It's long overdue to remove unqualified staff from the nhs. Nothing replaces the skill of a fully qualified gp. The number of cases of patient deaths,patient harm and early avoidable death because of untreated conditions,have risen year after year. Physician associates were not even opening test results for months so patients were dying. Anaesthesiologists are also being substituted by unqualified associates. That's so dangerous and patients have died but no one is listening to the warnings from qualified anaesthesiologists

[@scarred10]

theres no evidence of substitution ,they take the more routine tasks from doctors and none they werent chasing lab tests.There are no unqualified staff in the nhs they need to be used appropriately

[@mohienamjad3271]

It's the same with counselling too... There is a demand, just hospitals and services don't want to do it.

[@maxc7588]

When will you actually let GP partners do their job and see patients instead of just focusing on their own selfish interests?

[@anilasharma2371]

This is so crazy, can we walk in and act like a doctor, my terminal cancer diagnosis was missed the first time I visited GP surgery, with whom does the accountability lies?

[@scarred10]

any GP can miss a cancer diagnosis and a PA WOULD NEVER BE DIAGNOSING THAT

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

@@scarred10correct. But the holy Drs do no miss. Just quick google u will see. But Hey is the small amount of PAs causing misdiagnosis left and right. Damn.

[@abbasbazzi1707]

physician assistants are all over the place in the states as well, but i don't hear about complaints here.

[@AAA19999]

Insurance Lobbyists ?

[@unatwomey7112]

People go bankrupt in the US from medical costs. People would have to have access to a doctor in the US before they could complain about the care. You look at the difference in life expectancy or maternal health between the UK and the US and it's a good idea not to do what the US does.

[@edjones3410]

You would have to look into what the role of physician associates is in the US, the structure of the US health system is very different. I suspect they are not being used to replace doctors in the US

[@RAO.NUTRITION]

⁠the role of PA s in USA is much more than what PA'S can do in uk. It is much more regulated in uk. PA'S can infact prescribe medication in US but not UK.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

@@RAO.NUTRITIONdo you think that happened over night? Why can’t UK learn?! All they do in the Uk is complain and hence Brexit and here we are.

[@hands2voices650]

I tried to speak to dr I was told by receptionist to go to the pharmacy! We hardly get see drs anymore .

[@helheimpanda]

Pathetic, PA has misdiagnosed my mum 4 times and whenever we requested to see a junior doctor or gp, they said slots are full. She had 3 7mm gallstones that nearly killed her but who do we tell all of this?

[@taliamink5175]

@@helheimpandathat’s horrific. I hope you made a complaint.

[@helheimpanda]

^ Yeah let me fabricate something that never happened to me and concerned me. I posted this because this is that happened to me. Why would I talk about something that I never experienced. If you like PAs so much you are free to tell your experiences like everyone else.

[@princessa3399]

And there are a lot of unemployed doctors competing for open positions.

[@woodcote103]

unacceptable..its been going on for years..at least 14 years.

[@shuaibellahi6361]

I left the UK 10 years ago due to the PAs getting all theatre and clinic time whilst i was being blackmaiked to work more and look after people on the wards. 4 days off in 9 weeks meanwhilst PAs get paid more and all the training opportunities. The UK reaps what it sows

[@scarred10]

Therre werre very few Pas 10 yrs ago,you are hallucinating

[@shuaibellahi6361]

@scarred10 in Scotland we had 3 in our singular orthoapedics department in a regional hospital. But yeah, sure. "I'm hallucinating"

[@scarred10]

@@shuaibellahi6361 there are very few in scotland even now you just happened to be where there were 3 and orthopedic surgery seems to want them as assistants,same in ireland where I started out as first assist in a private hospital that had no registrars or surgical trainees.

[@shuaibellahi6361]

I assure you I have no benefit in making this up. I already left the UK. This was my experience and given the expansion of PAs since then I imagine the same experience, now, of many.

[@scarred10]

@shuaibellahi6361 as I said thay

[@nolongerhavetowork]

We need more mental health specialists

[@psps2034]

This is what happens when decades of underfunding by successive governments means there arent enough jobs for fully trained doctors to enter speciality training to become GPs.

[@Dronkytee]

Competent and now regulated PAs have worked hard, developed their knowledge within their teams and specialty, and go into work daily to do their best. As l'm sure other professions also do. They are an asset to the teams and patients they serve. I believe more needs to be done with the public regarding modernising healthcare and the developing roles. I would happily see a competent regulated PA, doctor, or any clinician trained to do their job. I think a constructive view, debate and problem solving is important. And though it's easy to be in one camp or the other, doctors misleading the public on this issue is creating more harm. Thousands of patients come across PAs, most feel well served (the ipsos poll) and likely to question the integrity of opposing doctors. Hopefully the Leng review helps clear the air. The abuse toward these hard working PAs is completely unprofessional.

[@gailplatt1]

Well id accept a less qualified dentist if it means i can see 1

[@psychonaut689]

It wouldn't surprise me. It's happened in the teaching, policing and mental health professions.

[@caravanstuff2827]

It just gets worse...stop the world I want to get off!!!.🙁

[@baihui7349]

Healthcare in UK is a joke

[@justadude8369]

Every £ spent on a PA is a gross waste of taxpayer money. Funnel that money into doctors, nurses, radiographers, HCAs i.e. people who actually make valuable contributions to the NHS....

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

What has PAs done to you. Have u seen or been seen by one??

[@justadude8369]

@@trashtalktrolling8853 Waste my taxes

[@zidan6343]

The King's inheritance tax could have paid for every PAs salary for the next few years. Oh wait he didn't pay it...

[@roksanaswiderska5748]

I am a doctor. I have jsut started GP speciality training and ... At the end of it I may be forced to emigrate to Canada/Australia. Many of my doctor collegues already have because after they finished speciality training there were no jobs for them in NHS (replaced by PAs or Practice Nurses). I am not sure of the current state of situaitin, but the government have been paying GP praceices to employ PAs and Practice Nurses (so GP prsctices employed them without needing to pay them salaries themselves). Wheras they had to pay GPs (doctors) out of their pockets. So for an employee it was no brainer to employ someone that could work for them for 'free'.

[@habibrohman-cq1us]

Awful this is happening

[@davedee923]

So what's wrong with good old nurses? Where do PAs sit in comparison? I've a feeling it's somewhere close to the bottom of the nurses' rankings without the advancement propects of a proper nursing career. So why not just train more nurses and those that don't want to make progress can stay at their chosen skill level?

[@scarred10]

because nurses arent mediacally trained,PAs are quite like ANPs but genersally trained.

[@adambretel5919]

PA's are a great concept, being terribly executed by the NHS. Rather than anyone with a relevant science degree accessing the training programme, it should be restricted to existing degree qualified and registered healthcare practitioners with 2+ years post qualifying experience. This would ensure much better standards. Maybe also extend the training a bit. The job title should be changed to remove the word physician as unfortunately the general public aren't lingo savy enough to understand that doesn't mean doctor. Maybe call them Medical Associates instead. I realise this makes it very close to the Advanced Clinical Practitioner role, so maybe there is scope to merge them or adjust both frameworks.

[@codswallop164]

People are only going to get less qualified treatment and longer waits as the assisted dying bill grows bigger than what's being sold right now, check out how Canadians were sold it and it's now the 3rd biggest cause of death... Stay healthy or be a target for the depopulation agenda.

[@paulgyimah2392]

If you can leave the country and go to a place that values doctors. Tired of all this lip service.

[@JPT2010]

I've saw PAs in my GP practice on 2 separate occasions, 1st time the man gave me a diagnosis and prescribed medication, second time was a long appointment, then they went and spoke to a GP for 5 minutes, came back and told me what they advise. At no point was it explained to me, what their qualifications or even title were. I honestly thought they were Doctors. I will not be seeing them again!

[@galacticvixen]

Everyone complains they can’t get an appointment- you got TWO appointments see by a clinician who acted safely and spoke to a Dr when they weren't sure and appropriately treated you and you are complaining because they aren’t Drs- the state of people these days.

[@skrefurbishedinteriors]

​@@galacticvixenyes this! I saw a pa in my surgery and they do way better than my invisible GP😮! He was kind, listened and I was more than satisfied with the service and my problem got solved! Better than not getting an appointment for weeks! People just love to moan! 😂

[@justadude8369]

@@galacticvixen Ridiculous right? I took a flight from London to Barcelona. Turns out who I thought was the pilot was actually just some guy who worked in the Costa at the airport. All the other passengers were up in arms about it when they heard, said they would never fly easyjet again etc but dont see the problem cause he actually landed the plane just fine.

[@scarred10]

nobody tells you their qualifications ,they state their title and name thats all thats needed.The gp was acting illegally by allowing them to prescribe

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

⁠@@galacticvixenthis person is the average UK person. Always complains no matter what. U hit the nail in the head. 😂

[@nowsheenanwar291]

PAs do not replace doctors PAs ease the pressure for NHS workload Example - if you have a cough or a cold, a PA can deal with that so a doctor can prioritise patients with serious issues like patients with cancer or complicated issues When PAs are gone, good luck getting a doctors appointment, you will have to wait even more longer

[@sumz1721]

I hate them so much. They are NOT Doctors

[@olczi7]

Lets also not forget that a lot of practitioners are forced to do things they aren’t trained in or qualified to do due to lack of staffing.

[@nikw1611]

They have got to order a rapid review this is not acceptable nor professional they are not doctors plain and simple. They are creating a big problem in the long run for everyone and themselves ! that’s more costly , this is a disgrace! How could she claim they’ve gone to medical school when they haven’t , in that case every hospital visitor and patient has especially when plenty of them have been back and forward with the same issue if not worse and no wonder! Plenty patients and visitors have had reoccurring experiences due to exactly this that’s caused worsening issues for them and they probably know more than they do! “Medical school” come on. Iv heard it all.

[@scarred10]

she nor anybody else ever claimed they went to med school, but they are medically trained

[@nikw1611]

“They’re bright enthusiastic individuals who have gone to university to under take their degrees with all the enthusiasm as I did when I went to medical school” she is evidently implying that they are still at “medical school” meanwhile she doesn’t look like a doctor does she, and PA’s are still learning meanwhile they are not fully medically trained they are not Doctors or specialists with a degree like they have plain and simple. Thats the equivalent of having a trainee nurse diagnose patients which is crazy they are medically trained but do not have the qualifications as a doctor l. People may as well in that case ask a school nurse to diagnose them as their medically trained they even know how to slap on a plaster - absolute madness .

[@scarred10]

@nikw1611 nurses do not learn medicine and habe neber diagnosed.PAs do learn a less broad and deep amount medicine at a very accelerated pace because theyre not trying to ne doctors and generaæly wont be diagmosing without consultant supervision.Nobody claims PAs go the medical schoon but they certainly learn medicine, theres mo nursing in it.

[@lee2323]

Its DISGUSTING this needs to stop playing around with peoples lives !!!!

[@MrJukamada]

So PA end up doing work during the day where the work is easy and well supported, and doctors will end up doing night shift because doctors can do their work independently where there is less support and work is more difficult. This is clearly grossly unfair !!! And clearly the system rewards those who are less competent. This must stop !

[@philipdurling1964]

Dr's on the cheap.

[@hydra66]

except they cost more

[@scarred10]

not doctors at all,you havent researched before posting

[@philipdurling1964]

@scarred10 PA's are being used to replace Doctors as part of a cost cutting exercise. No one is suggesting that they are doctors. Try and keep up.

[@Moonlight-sonata-t9r]

I had to have a ct scan for cancer the nurse couldn’t even put the needle properly in my arm he tried twice and had to put it in my hand instead

[@scarred10]

irrelevant to this or any other discussion.

[@AbigailBrown-wk7xl]

I have been misdiagnosed by a pa . This is not fair

[@rachaelray4693]

I’ve been misdiagnosed by a doctor.

[@petertownley7296]

ive been possibly misdiagnoised by doctor i was told by another doctor also more people in uk less doctots means someone else has to deal with shortfalls

[@goc6560]

You should be seeking a legal advice and make a claim if you are telling the truth

[@earnestequivocation6250]

Ooh yessss…..whaddya expect from Tories who don’t have to use them?

[@PaulAlsop-k5j]

There are some very good PA,s out there. If you knew how bad some Dr,s are, you wouldn't complain . I've worked in health care for 40+ years and, on many occasions, had to stop Junior Dr,s from messing up!!

[@woodcote103]

very very true..i know from experience.

[@keithpp1]

Not acceptable.

[@lukalondon8042]

I was always seen by PA instead of doctors at the hospital. Had so many mislead diagnosis and given medication that had severe side affects after given wrong meds

[@scarred10]

PAs dont prescribe so you were given it by a doctor

[@somaanandarajah4075]

I had an unfortunate experience of PA , yesterday from my GP surgery. My request initially should have been seen my Dr to make a recommendation ( this is a request to remove a tube ,due to hospital staffs are off sick and don't have the specialist to carry out the tube removal after 1 week ) sadly this PA asks me why do you want it done.

[@anilasharma2371]

Doctors study and train for so many years before practice ? Why should anyone with any form of degree examine patients? I have never heard of it in my lifetime , get real don't play with patients lives .

[@scarred10]

you dont understand the role at all,theyre not replacing any doctors.

[@chrisbronsdon624]

The job title - physician associate - is misleading, perhaps deliberately?! Patients seeing someone with "physician" in their job title will understandably think they are seeing a physician - a doctor! Physician associates themselves should be leading the call for a change in their job title. The fact that the GMC have now agreed to regulate PA’s will only add to the confusion. The fact that PA’s are paid a higher salary after just 2 years training, than doctors with 5 years of medical school and several years of on the job training, is a scandal.

[@OliverCampbell-f6x]

Defund the NHS

[@lancedsouza1547]

PA…Clue is in the name surely . Surely they should be going the job of an assistant (I.e all the donkey work like submitting requests for investigations etc to free up doctors to actually do their work. Why on earth are they actually treating patients when they haven’t gone an actual medical degree?

[@snsn7251]

The problem is when some PA feel that are Drs and overstep. There needs to be firm boundaries.

[@petertownley7296]

Truth is workloads are getting more less doctors are in the system more people more issues

[@nazmed8141]

Not less doctors in the system less doctors being employed because theyre being replaced by PAs

[@beaker1068]

better than being assessed and denied a doctor by a GP receptionist

[@ChristineFisher123]

It wont be long before the local rubbish collectors will be able to apply for NHS clinical jobs..😂

[@JohnJones-k9d]

Based on my experience of doctors it would be an improvement.

[@K4rmaRules]

We all know this is unacceptable. It needs to stop asap. It's as bad as the DWP deciding disabled people aren't in pain enough or needing mobility needs when they clearly do.

[@balorklub]

Well at least it's PA as in Physician Associate's and not Personal Assistants! Lol

[@veggienugnugs]

Cosplaying as doctors. They're paid more than dr's too.

[@purple_panther04]

>reddit opinion disregarded

[@enonbusiness8156]

Alibaba version of doctors. Good grief!!

[@princessa3399]

😂😂😂

[@dreamcat4]

we know why this happened this was all down to the mass exodus of many doctors emmigrating abroad perhaps a lot went to australia or similar all because nhs during prior tory government perhaps a lot was to do with uk housing crisis the prospects and culture in uk generally sad then all the properly trained doctors left uk and that same housing crisis too... see the nhs then has to pay a lot of budget into its real estate property facilities costs or the power energy bills to keep lights on so those underlying issues isnt due to nhs its uk more broadly speaking and of course also private sector is perhaps another one in terms of availability of doctors also region because in different areas if varies a lot too if we had ways to improve... its hard for now with current general economic conditions so the poor healthcare then also kills economy its like a feedback loop creating conditions if there is fewer young people to support too that nhs burden of older patients costs more as a percentage etc. so its not just about... its not just about "working age workforce" its more about staying healthy period and no matter what age groups be healthy you know guys i myself have been trying to but those uk security services they spent millions of the taxpayer monies to bully me just so that i could not go out anymore exercise and have continually degrading health myself its a total madness of the uk peoples themselves its like... i am being converted to become different nationality person or something as people dressed up as nhs etc continues to bully my harass me in the streets bully harass intimidate ok ok i get it you are a uk citizens who works for that dude whom is the actual bully right at the very top and earns a 6 figures salary to bully me 328th best paid civil sevant in uk or something thanks bro, a bright future to help new government to this very day this is my nth complaint abouts it all lost count long time ago theres at least 3 of them minimum see to hide amongst themselves any blame or they can just rando outsource the blame to any of those other government bodies nhs etc. its a total con but i have sympathies! for the good guys (whom is not the bad ones) so they fake try to attemp rebuilt trust by bullying me again and taking away my spartan little life if theres something they gets wind of then theyre off again, to find another way to exploit the post office scandal type things it can be all over again people commiting suicide etc it never stops no wonder the smarter ones leaves this country it is not a self greed when they genuinely cannot stay here those new doctors etc. well understood guys!

[@taliamink5175]

This is all the governments fault.

[@AbigailBrown-wk7xl]

This is worrying. I should be allowed to see a qualified doctor

[@scarred10]

YOU ALWAYS ARE

[@tommyjack813]

This cannot be allowed to continue. The first action should be to restore their title to physician assistant. The next should be to halt courses offering the qualification.

[@trashtalktrolling8853]

What next commander in chief??

[@hennadesigns3845]

Uk is finished

[@maxc7588]

When will you actually start prioritizing patient care over your own greed and self-indulgence?

[@molkakaminski]

NHS Drs are working for free in Gaza!!!!

[@jgw58]

Let's face it, it was clear 30 years ago that when AI came of age one of the first jobs that could be replaced is that of GPs. And, hopefully, lawyers.

[@jonnypoundland4118]

3 year nursing degree, 3/5 years post graduation experience and then completion of a 2 year masters.

[@AnthonyD-yy2in]

There is no white privilege in Britain. We all suffer.

[@gailgray1819]

I have been a Physician Assistant for 18 years. NEVER have I presented myself as a Physician. We are trained as part of a medical team. Perhaps you should do a more thorough job of research

[@AlOh-2]

Stop letting so many people in and the doctors will have less people to treat 🤷‍♂️

[@sonyse2t5]

What is next....how about new 'physican dentist' to screw up people's teeth😂

[@scarred10]

all dentists are doctors,way to show your ignorance

[@anjusree1561]

Just let us join ! We are graduated doctors who are waiting for our first jobs in NHS after getting GMC registration after PLAB exams

[@AylaFMD]

@anjusree1561 We already have enough homegrown doctors in the UK that need jobs, we don’t need any more IMGs diluting the workforce

[@DrDarling-j8z]

^ yeah right after basically making imgs pay 1000s of pounds, spend years of their time spending to give the exams set up by GMC to become qualified doctors by UK standard, now you say this. Maybe tell your government to stop stealing money and conducting this exam, if this is their intention to begin with. If Imgs aren't allowed to work in UK, stop those exams but you thieves won't.

[@DrDarling-j8z]

^ If that's the case then why is your government conducting exams to recruit foreign doctors. Imgs are spending 1000s of pounds, spending years of their time to become doctors by standards your government has setup. After all of that, now you say this? If this is your intention then you are stealing money from those Imgs. Stop those exams but I bet you won't because you are a bunch of thieves.

[@DrDarling-j8z]

If that's the case then why is your government conducting exams to recruit foreign doctors. Imgs are spending 1000s of pounds, spending years of their time to become doctors by standards your government has setup. After all of that, now you say this? If this is your intention then you are stealing 💵 from those Imgs. Stop those exams but I bet you won't because you are thieves.

[@DrDarling-j8z]

^ If that's the case then why is your government conducting exams to recruit foreign doctors. Imgs are spending 1000s of pounds, spending years of their time to become doctors by standards your government has setup. After all of that, now you say this? If this is your intention then you are stealing from those Imgs. Stop those exams but I bet you won't because of your immoral practices.

[@rosesargz2016]

PAs go through vigorous examination and training in hospitals before they are qualified, its not just a degree. They also cannot prescribe without a doctor signing off so they are still under a doctor people have misinformation doctors have misdiagnosed and got things wrong too.

[@phantomone408]

PAs in Leeds were ordering x-rays, something that can only legally be done by a doctor or dentist. There are many examples of PAs practising well beyond the scope of what they should be doing. Yes, doctors make mistakes, despite years of training and rigorous examinations. How is it a solution to replace them with someone less qualified? Every plane that has crashed had a pilot at the controls (except hijacks of course). Would you advocate people who have not completed pilot training flying aircraft as pilots crash too?

[@harismohammad2005]

@@phantomone408Pharmacists and nurses can also order X-rays by the way not just doctors and dentists.

[@charlieh9725]

@@harismohammad2005not in the uk

[@harismohammad2005]

@@charlieh9725 Yes in the UK it’s been going on for quite a while now.

[@TheynotLikeus-m7s]

Lets all just sit at home and complain to yt. Not like its affecting our lives is it🙄

[@adrianwilson2635]

Most probably better than doctor's

[@ilakha111]

This is an easy fix. Doctors need to do two things, cost so much that the NHS trust can't afford to use them and second, stop being so egotistical. Everyone of us who works either in the private or public sector is replaceable so act accordingly. Doctors for many years have priced themselves out so much that consultants are refusing to see patients who are in critical care, because it's outside the 9-5pm workday. Get back to basics and stop charging the NHS a bucket load and AP's won't be needed. It's that simple.

[@mugen913]

Nonsense

[@Bringon-dw8dx]

1) Doctors of many grades cost less than PA’s 2) Consultants do see people out of hours, HOWEVER this shouldn’t regularly need to happen as their registras should be able to handle most things

[@edjones3410]

You crazy bro, I make 60-70K working as a GP with over 15 years experience as well as covering weekends. Train drivers earn more, the government has destroyed the profession. There are GP colleagues out of work moving abroad and leaving the profession, no jobs for newly qualified doctors. You will have no doctors left, the pay and quality of life is better in other countries and other professions.

[@j.a.motteux2785]

Pfahahaha it's because joe public squeal they want a more bloated state sector and yet lower taxes. "Ordinary working people" will need to pay higher taxes, pay for their own healthcare, or accept that public services will get worse.

[@ilakha111]

@@edjones3410 No, you're crazy bro??!? We've tried it your way of paying you a load of cash and you still complain and whinge. so my way seems a legitimate alternative. Until you lot start getting on the same page with the rest of the public, then we have something to work towards, until then stand on your job and keep serving the people of the country silently and being paid very well.