The Ancient HORRORS of the Knuckles Clan - Sonic’s Darkest Lore

[@chaomix]

Should Sonic stories be as dark as the lore of the ancient Echidna tribe? Or do you think they should only be much more light hearted?

[@3talker]

Yes

[@djibyjoof]

Yes actually maybe

[@wills2894]

Idk

[@anidiot542]

A mix of both

[@SuperSonicbros4]

Either a mix both or dark

[@MrNeedleM0use]

I feel like the echidna tribe lore is genuinely amazing. More darker stories would be amazing because this story teaches one not to be greedy

[@JeremyBelpoisX]

Sadly I feel like these are tales which will never be told, thanks to one man's meddling with things...

[@Thylos]

I hope that the next game has a darker story, but a kinda hidden one, so it's still kid friendly !

[@Mohammad-fc9sb]

People kept saying that the sonic franchise was to edgy so they made him say stuff that isn’t funny or serious and now people want that back but it will probably be a vicious cycle that will never end

[@LannyLeArtist]

Yeah

[@loltheocean]

with the sonic resurgence i feel a lot of unfinished lore is finally getting completed like it should be 👍✨

[@donathan2933]

Knuckles and Shadow honestly have the best lore and backstory of any character and it’s good to see the Echidna tribe being discussed

[@MastaGambit]

I'd argue they're the only ones with an effective backstory lol

[@valentinescookies.]

i really hope that Frontiers is a step in the right direction of giving current characters more backstory. ESPECIALLY Sonic. with that mural in Sonic 3, it makes you wonder. i hope they explore that in future games!

[@hamstersandwich9917]

Silver and Blaze have the potential to have as good of a lore as those two but SEGA seemingly doesn't wanna do anything cool with them.

[@sirkjohno0129]

It's interesting how the echidnas' mural of Perfect Chaos was a big influence Gerald into making the Artificial Chaos and the Chaos Drives for Project Shadow, and then by proxy, making Shadow himself.

[@donathan2933]

@@sirkjohno0129 yup. Just like I said

[@zackanderson7440]

I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. One moral I’ve noticed from the sonic series is that playing god with ill intent will always result in disaster, be it the echidna’s within both SA1 and the Archie comics, Project shadow in SA2, The metarex in Sonic X and so on.

[@IN-tm8mw]

Very true, unlike most other games that fight "Godlike" beings for the trills or challenge alone, Sonic Series always comes with a theme of the darkside of seeking Godhood.

[@ataladin87]

Or the people of Soleanna in Sonic 06 Or even Dr Eggman in Sonic Unleashed

[@joshtato5456]

perhaps this theme of "playing god gone wrong" is an evolution of the idea of "nature vs machine" that the classics laid down. after all, playing god is anything but natural

[@IN-tm8mw]

@@joshtato5456 I always saw the pursuit of godhood as a fundamentally "Human" desire and stories surrounding obtaining it thu artificial means a question to weather its product of Human Evolution or Cheating. The dangers of seeking it and what it means after obtaining such power. In context to the lore of the sonic series, i've always found it interesting as to what "Role" does these gateways to godhood (Power Ups?) server to the created universe.

[@donathan2933]

@@joshtato5456that is true

[@normalgraham]

I love how Grandma established the Echidna's civilization, culture, and religion all by herself and within a single generation of her death they already fully transitioned from total pacifists to a brutal empire of death-dealing war mongers. Like, they barely waited until her body was cold. Either the Echidnas were just waiting for her to die so they could immediately begin killing everything in sight or they were just reallyyyyyyyy gullible because that's one heck of an about-face

[@F1areon]

Or at least Pachacamac was; there's not really much word on how the other echidnas feel (except for Tikal ofc) since they're just generic NPCs

[@sirkjohno0129]

​@F1areon you can talk to the NPC echidnas in the past Mystic Ruins adventure field whenever you travel there

[@F1areon]

I know, but other than that they're all just kinda... there. They just say the same messages and that's really about it. @@sirkjohno0129

[@andreasmeelie1889]

In ways it kind of reminds me of the Bible stories. I'm in Bible Study and have learned about how their have been kings that would follow God's lead and worship God. But then after those nice kings their sons or whoever rules after them would be the evil one taking over everything, taking away things from people, worshipping other gods, and not following God's lead maybe even thinking that they are better than God. Yet, they have to learn to accept the love of God and realize that HE is way stronger and knows what HE'S doing is better than any of them. At times God has no choice but to punish them. Chaos isn't God, lol, but the Echidnas should have known better to keep things at peace and that Chaos is far more powerful than them and could very well easily punish them.

[@SisterRose]

I'm guessing that's going to be retconned in the future

[@lynxfresh5214]

I always found it truly interesting that a place called "Angel Island" was associated with genocide, disaster and tragedy yet in current times its usually seen as Knuckles' island paradise.

[@LannyLeArtist]

Yeah

[@demiraykodal468]

I mean, no taxes

[@davin6957]

​@@demiraykodal468No mcdonald's

[@tf_is_this_shit]

@@davin6957 NOOOOOO

[@agentomecha634]

It’s interesting to see that the ramifications caused by actions of both the Ancients and the Knuckles Clan are still being felt in the present day of the Sonic series.

[@inyuji]

Echidna tribe lore is definitely interesting. It definitely resonates with real history and how civilizations would rise and fall due to hubris and greeed

[@chaomix]

That’s honestly the scariest part

[@Averagebasementman]

That’s something iv noticed about the adventure games the main conflict is always created unintentionally by a monster who closed off their heart and did something selfish. Indirectly dooming others and the world to a horrific fate that is narrowly prevented by someone with a good heart.

[@brandonwilliams6119]

I love how certain levels of Sonic Adventure could be part of levels from Sonic 3 & Knuckles like Ice Cap, Sand Hill being Sandopolis, and inside the Depths of Red Mountain being Lava Reef. I really love the last story of SA1 where everything comes together, Tikal shows herself after being a very helpful hint guide for you on your campaigns, she explains everything, Sonic wants to make things right for her and Chaos to live in peace for eternity, and to top it all off we get an ending artwork of Tikal, Chaos and the Chao all living in peace together🥹

[@TheFrostedfirefly]

I think what's cool about narratives like the Echidna Tribe's downfall is that for Sonic stories, they're at their strongest when the negative side of the past is used to highlight the hopeful and positive side of the present.

[@comicfan1324]

I’m pretty sure Tikal and Chaos are still with the master emerald in spirit. As we see in sonic battle, chaos can return if the Chao are threatened and in the animated short (that released with Sonic Frontiers) we see Tikal’s soul fly about and the water around the Master Emerald reacts to it.

[@goldenboybenny7511]

Impossible if chaos was in the master emerald he would show up when it shattered in sonic adventure 2.

[@BonitoJoe111]

I love that Sonic lore is important and mostly coherent again after over a decade. The transition from Frontiers to 3&K to Adventure and how they all come full circle (or full triangle) is just satisfying to see now.

[@valemontgomery9401]

Don’t forget that their legacy bleeds into Adventure 2 with the artificial Chaos and the theory that Shadow and Biolizard are inspired by the Sonic and Perfect Chaos murals, respectively

[@donathan2933]

Agreed

[@hamstersandwich9917]

​@@valemontgomery9401 you could kinda argue the same with the Metarex arc with how the Master Emerald is essential to the story and how Knuckles laments the Metarex killing their own kind much like his tribe.

[@vegetafan9922]

There are some Sonic ""fans"" (the same ones who argue about Sonic's shade of blue and quill length on Twitter) that say that Sega should stop having continuity in the games because it only "complicates an already "messy" franchise" and to them I say "maybe if you stop complaining for five seconds and listen to what you're being told then maybe, just maybe your small, miniscule brain can find some semblance of enjoyment out of this series that you are a so-called "fan" of. I will admit that Sega trying to make Prime canon to the games dispite WildBrain obviously never intending it to be with all it's blatant inconsistencies is like Sega trying to jam the wrong piece into a puzzle.

[@donathan2933]

@@vegetafan9922 Sonic can have lore, Frontiers did a great job of that, but making shows like Prime canon is stupid and makes zero sense

[@VoidStorm016]

I like the darker and more in depth stories, and whenever they do it there needs to me a lesson somewhere in there. Adventure 1 and 2 are great examples of that. It's also cool how they also blend nicely into Echidna lore with all the angel island stuff in adventure and how Gerald used all their iconography in 2.

[@Elycha_]

I really like those kinds of lore retelling videos from you and other channels. The Echidna Tribe's story is one of the reasons why I love SA1 and S3&K so much. Those ancient ruins and the story behind them are really one of Sonic's best plot points. And I was really excited when Frontiers dropped new lore on us. But now I have many more questions, I hope one day we'll learn more about the Ancients and the Chaos Emeralds' past.

[@rcjackal1861]

The echidna tribe was such an interesting topic. Sonic X was likely my introduction to it from the snippets they show during the Adventure arc.

[@aaphant]

The echidnas weren't "banished", they weren't pulled into the skies against their will. They *decided* to use the Master Emerald to create Angel Island, isolating themselves and the Emerald from the world to keep it safe. It was a deliberate choice of theirs. Also, they were never pacifists? They were always a group of ruffians. Tikal's grandma kept them from becoming warmongers, but they weren't pacifists.

[@cherubiccherry1619]

I feel like I see so many conflicting takes. Anyone got sources?

[@aaphant]

@@cherubiccherry1619 The Sonic Adventure Navigation Guide. It's in Japanese, so a lot of people don't know the lore in it, which is rather frustrating and disappointing. I wish we got official translations. I'm relying on machine translation so there may be errors, but here's a snippet from page 148. "Pachacamac. Chief of the ancient Knuckles tribe. He was bold, brave and daring. The ancient Knuckles were just a bunch of ruffians, but he brought them together with discipline and wisdom, and quickly formed them into a powerful fighting force. The ambitions that had been suppressed by his mother were unleashed by her death, and Pachacamac set out on his path to supremacy." From this we know that the Knuckles clan were violent even before Pachacamac came to power. They were always ruffians even during the time of Tikal's grandmother. Maybe centuries ago they were peaceful, but we don't know. Another snippet from page 157, "Devastated by Chaos' attack, the Knuckles clan were weakened considerably. The surviving Knuckles tribe, using the power of the Master Emerald, levitated the area around the Emerald Altar and took up residence there, monitoring and guarding the sealed Master Emerald to ensure that such an event would never happen again. They also left inscriptions and murals in the temple to pass on the incident to future generations." Clearly stating that the Knuckles clan themselves created Angel Island and willingly isolated themselves.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

@@aaphant I'm pretty sure this going off of lore added after adventure 1 came out.

[@ScapeVEVO]

I always figured "Chaos" got his name and title by the Echidnas who survived and were left behind in the Mystic Ruins, constructing the mural in their demolished temple to warn future generations of this being they now refer to as "Chaos, the God of Destruction" and knowing their old prayers, and the power they unleashed that night, that's also how the Emeralds became known as "Chaos Emeralds" In the Japanese translation, the emeralds are never referred to as "Chaos Emeralds" until after that night. And even in Frontiers, The Ancients can be heard to referring to them as "Chaos Gems" so this detail of the lore remains intact thankfully, cause I personally believe the Emeralds' natural state to be Super Emeralds, hence their size in the past. Well actually ig their natural state is the smaller size since Frontiers shows us this, but clearly being around the Master Emerald pushes them into an ascended state, so that's neat. But yeah the Ancients referred to them correctly, it was the Echidnas who misnamed them as all being Emeralds lol

[@PoisonedOkami]

I've been waiting for your input on the Echidna tribe for so long, I'm so happy you finally done it! Knuckles is my favourite character so seeing more into his background is amazing! Amazing video as always Chaomix!

[@joshmeche1320]

It’s times like these in which I miss old school sonic with elaborate stories and lore. This video made me so excited seeing the overall big picture. I hate how SEGA was regressing back in the 2010s and pandering to classic sonic nostalgia instead of moving forward. But after Frontiers I’m glad that they are innovating and creating exciting stories again. Let’s hope they continue to keep this trend.

[@kingtiger5040]

Yet the best sonic games were in the 2010s(Colors,Generations and Mania) with the best of the 2000s being only slightly better than Lost World

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Almost as if the 00s games were really bad and damaged the brand, so they'd rather try to evoke nostalgia of the time they WEREN'T a laughingstock, and were actually rivaling Mario

[@maryafantalia4357]

​@@kingtiger5040 Blabla, we're going to pretend that Unleashed, Adventure games, Rush games and Storybook games weren't good games. And guess what? They're from 2000s! And before you come back with your "Sonic can't be serious". Remember all the games I quoted, and add IDW comics, Sonic X's Season 3, Frontiers, Dream Team and Riders games to the list, we'll see if you'll keep saying that Sonic can't have good serious stories.

[@snickrdoodle_skywalker]

Woah, this was pretty amazing. I almost finished Sonic 3 & Knuckles and already finished Sonic Adventure, and the lore for Knuckles' clan was pretty dark, but still had a pretty good moral. Great vid, Chaomix.

[@LoganTGaming]

Knuckles has really grown to be one of my favorite Sonic characters, and this backstory really fuels this fascination. A clan, tainted by violence and conquest, pay the price once they attempt to play god. This story, alongside many other things, is why I really love this series.

[@vegasvanga5442]

I will always ADORE the fact that the ancient Echidnas are initially presented to the player as a peaceful civilization, but as you play the game, it's gradually revealed they were in fact a bunch of violent assholes who totally deserved what happened to them. That's some cool-ass shit for a 1998 "cartoon mouse wearing sneakers" platformer imo

[@Kutomi1]

Except the first flashback you see (if you play through Sonic's story first) is one of the last ones chronologically, with the whole place engulfed in flames Or might be THE last one, I'm not sure

[@MajoraZ]

As both a big Sonic adventure fan and somebody really into Mesoamerican history and archeology, i've constantly mused doing a big breakdown of all of the Mesoamerican influences the Echidna have in SA1 and to a lesser extent SA2 and Shadow.

[@tobin7673]

Chaomix you're storytelling and editing is amazing! I remember watching your Shadow lore video and I was like we need more of this and I'm so glad we got this vid!

[@magatsujoji]

The history of the Echidna tribe and what transpired has always been one of my favorite lore when it some to the Sonic franchise, and this video perfectly explains it. Thank you so much for this

[@CheyenneG99]

I for one love the darker lore the Sonic franchise has. It doesn't have to be lighthearted all the time!

[@noob3702]

angel island is probably one of the most important places ever with the darkest and deepest lore in the entire series

[@Averagebasementman]

I do like the idea that the ancients couldn’t sustain their water like bodies on earth so they had to devolve into the chao in order to survive. This would also explain how chaos operates notice how chaos 0 seems to only be able to be in full form for a short period as when ever we encountered him in sa1 he would always emerge and flee in a puddle it would also explain why he wasn’t able to leave the altar in the tikal flashbacks. With out the emeralds power he can’t sustain himself for a long period of time. The ancients being the chao would also explain how they can consume the energy of the chaos drives and get stronger like chaos and can’t really survive without something like chaos energy. God if they really thought of all that when writing the ancients storyline then maybe Sonic writing is starting to turn around.

[@20000dino]

Will you ever talk about the Echidna lore of Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood? Most people overlook that game due to it not being very good, but its story and lore is genuinely really interesting (and, besides a few retcons, it's generally consistent with the Sonic canon till that point, even though it's not considered canon). I haven't seen anyone talk about it here on KZbin, so it'd be great having you do it!

[@SonicX-pd9kc]

I was just thinking about Chronicles being canon! Both Imperator IX and Shade are echindas, and I believe Nestor is one, too, with his ancient tablets. I really feel like they should've made a sonic Chronicles 2 by now because the ending of the game says, "The End", but then when you press the a button, it says, "The End?". I feel like that should indicate another sonic rpg, but it's been so long that I don't think they'll ever make another one. I think chronicles is one of the greatest sonic games, actually, and I love the music! It suprised me when most people didn't like it.

[@ZeeZeeNg]

In Sonic Chronicles, it was revealed that the Knuckles Clan were at war with the Nocturnus Clan. In an attempt to expand the Knuckles Clan's power, Pachacamac, the leader of the Knuckles Clan, attacked the Chao at the emerald altar to steal the Chaos Emeralds. However, Chaos retaliated by transforming into Perfect Chaos and wiped out the Knuckles Clan (as already shown in the Sonic Adventure flashbacks). The demise of the Knuckles Clan due to Perfect Chaos allowed the Nocturnus Clan to be temporarily unopposed, before being trapped in the Twilight Cage. Eventually, Imperator Ix, the leader of the Nocturnus Clan, came up with a plan to break out of the Twilight Cage and conquer the world.

[@Ollie.H-23]

Something that has always confused me was the mural in Hidden Palace depicting Super Sonic fighting Dr. Robotnik in space. Of course, that happens thousands of years after the mural was made, so how did they know? What was the reason for creating a mural with a Super charged Hedgehog fighting a large moustached entity over the Master Emerald. And why specifically was it a Hedgehog? Hedgehogs don't seem to have any interesting history or lore, the Echidnas do, however. If they were going to make the mural about a being with the Emerald's power fighting for the Master Emerald, surely it would've been an Echidna

[@darkspinechronic-1825]

Interesting point there

[@saffie_taffie]

Perhaps a dream? a vision? Prophecies work in mysterious ways. My assumption was that some kind of “divine vision” was given and the mural was depicting the prophecy.

[@Ollie.H-23]

@@saffie_taffie but a prophecy made 4000 years before the event transpires? From other fictional stories that feature prophecies (like Harry Potter) the prophecies are made weeks or months before it happens. A prophecy is made about Harry and Voldemort and the event spoken about happens only 2 years after the prophecy was made.

[@saffie_taffie]

@@Ollie.H-23 There are prophecies in fiction that have been told hundreds of years prior, an example being in Percy Jackson. Heck, if you want to take irl religions and mythologies into account, many have some sort of prophecy about how the world will end, or beings that will rise one day. Even though they may have been told thousands of years ago, they are yet to happen.

[@ChaddyFantome]

We see The Master Emerald show Knuckles that pieces of it are located on the Egg Carrier. It stands to reason the Master Emerald is what gave them insight to write the prophecies, so they could be ready for future threads to the emeralds and such.

[@bluekel615]

This "Sonic's Darkest Lore" series is the new Sonic Bible. Like seriously, how do you explain Sonic lore so good?

[@YeetoTheYeetafic]

Notice that every playable Sonic character in SA1 gets some ancient-ish power-up, Sonic gets the Ancient Light, Tails gets some badge, Knuckles gets digging claws, Amy gets a bow/hairclip etc.

[@am3z_ssbu]

i love these history-focused lore videos of sonic! id love some more mephillis, so maybe a video about him could be cool!

[@captainyuuri2847]

Love these kinds of videos because the echidna clan is one of my favorite parts of the Sonic series. One thing i wish you mentioned would be Sonic Chronicles TDB and it's further expanded lore on the echidna clan. Its one of my favorites and I do wish it was mentioned in this video. One clan being almost completely wiped out by the very being they worshipped and the other remaining tribe being banished into the Twlight Cage filled with other extremely dangerous and powerful beings. Honestly makes me wish they'd return in a future game or at least mentioned again as the Nocturnus clan did also invent the Gizoids. But overall solid video, love the content man! 👌

[@WolforNuva]

Just a nitpick, there is no such thing as "devolve". Evolving isn't about getting stronger, it's simply how a species changes with observation that a creature more fit for their environment will better survive.

[@TheHylianBatman]

This really make Adventure 1 feel like the story's end, and Adventure 2 feel like a new beginning. How very fitting. Echidna lore scares me, though. Because of Penders...

[@diamondog2476]

I always liked and preferred the more serious and story-rich and full of lore Sonic games, like Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sonic 06, the Sonic Storybook games and Sonic Unleashed. And I am happy that Sonic Team finally remembered to retry this approach with Sonic Frontiers, even to a quite lesser extent.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

06 had an awful story though

[@YourLocalNintendo]

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 I feel like the story itself wasn't that bad, it had potential, but the whole hedgehog-human love thing was super weird, and kind of repetitive. (Just my opinion)

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@YourLocalNintendo I dunno, the stupid time paradox story with knockoff Future Trunks and an evil Shadow is just too convoluted and needlessly serious for Sonic. How about the massive plothole about Elise somehow never crying? Or just the fact it was one of the main games that shifted the Sonic stories away from environmentalism and stopping Eggman into these world-ending events. Actually I don't care much for the kiss. It's easy to make fun of but Sonic is fully sentient and capable of consenting, and he doesn't exactly look like a real hedgehog so it doesn't really count as bestiality either. The bigger issue is that it seemed one-sided and she kissed him when he was unconscious.

[@YourLocalNintendo]

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 Bro tbh I agree with most of what you just said, I just think the time paradox thing was kind of cool. Sure, it was really convoluted and needlessly complex, but I find it more fun the more confusing it is. Like decoding a puzzle, it's fun (does that make sense?) And I loved Mephiles, I think he was a great villian. I guess it kind of depends on the player. The kiss wasn't really a problem, I agree it wasn't bestiality, I just thought it was weird and unnecessary, I just wish they had more of a platonic friendship.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@YourLocalNintendo It's dumb because the calamity Silver's coming to prevent isn't anything interesting relating to the main characters. Mephiles should've been an evil Shadow, or it could've been in a future where Sonic turned evil or Eggman took over. Instead it's a villain we only ever see in this game. In the Android Saga, Trunks went back in time to stop robots created by one of Goku's old foes, and the final villain of the arc was created by that same man and a combination of almost all of Goku's previous villains. Toriyama could've made it a random throwaway villain but he decided to do something interesting and thematically significant with it. Like the issue isn't time travel despite a lot of problems those stories tend to have, it just doesn't use it in any interesting or creative way. Let alone the entire plotline is strapped to Elise being a worthless damsel. Not including the issue that Solaris is just another big evil monster that wanted to destroy the world, like Perfect Chaos before it or Dark Gaia after. And the fact Sonic doesn't voluntarily set it off or is even the actual Iblis Trigger at all, which could've done SOMETHING interesting for the narrative. There'd be a potential moral choice there. We don't actually really see what Silver is doing in the future or how he really got here (doesn't help that they don't even want to show who Sonic apparently had kids with), let alone how Blaze relates to this when she had a completely different backstory in Sonic Rush. The story is just too poorly thought out and was probably a product of being rushed, but honestly Sonic has never really had well-written stories. I don't see how you think Mephiles was a good villain, I don't think Sonic has ANY good villains or even good characters. People complain about character degradation, but it's not like these characters were deep or interesting to begin with, and none of them really developed or went through arcs even in their "glory days". The closest was Shadow but even then it was only halfway decently done in one game, a game filled with melodramatic writing and bad voice acting (and the insinuation some spiky rat is the "Ultimate Lifeform"). He just kinda floats around the next few games and angsts a bit. Maybe Knuckles but he gets over that in like one game. When it comes to villains the closest to interesting we get is Eggman himself, but that's solely due to the hints he became the way he is because of the government fucking him over. But that's never explored and he's not given a particularly interesting or entertaining relationship to Sonic, he had something in the original trilogy where he represents environmental destruction and Sonic is a woodland critter defending his home (which was the original reason why there's talking animals running around), but the franchise has been long past that, sadly. Sega will never delve into anyone's backstories or motivations or let them change as people because they want to keep them static and the stories simple like other mascot platformers, but then they introduce a new character or two every game that gets some sort of arc (what I meant before was that none of the core characters are particularly interesting or well-developed), and in the Dark Era especially still tried to put all this pomp and circumstance into the plot. They want to have their cake and eat it too, at least develop the other characters if you MUST keep Sonic static (and God do I hate static heroic leads). To close out on Eggman, unironically one of the best versions is the one from the Boom cartoon because at least he's a massive loser that Sonic at times barely tolerates. A very Doofenshmirtz and Perry the Platypus sorta relationship, it's not like Eggman was ever particularly threatening no matter what the games did. This doesn't include SatAm Robotnik, he was a nice mix of both and probably one of the few pieces of Sonic media with a decent story, characters actually develop, especially Sonic who has flaws and an interesting relationship with both Robotnik and Sally. I know it's the basis for the Archie comics but from all I've seen they were kinda hit and miss at times though they certainly tried more with characterization. Maybe IDW is also good, I hear mixed stuff with it and Ian Flynn is a bit too faithful to the source material so to speak though I definitely think his arm is a little twisted.

[@RedBlueNinja]

When one video proves how much better the games' stories were in the 90's and 2000's

[@kingtiger5040]

Sadly,a large majority of those games were utter dogshit with 2 being mediocre/okay and 2 being legitimately good

[@elmemearana]

​​@@kingtiger5040okay? Name examples, then.

[@kingtiger5040]

@elmemearana5483 Dogshit:Shadow the hedgehog,Secret Rings,Shuffle,06,Black Knight,Chronicles and heroes Mediocre:Unleashed and the Rush series Good:Adventure 1 and 2(Advance series also included)

[@elmemearana]

@@kingtiger5040 tbh, I would classify Secret Rings and Black Knight as truly mediocre games, since they are actually good if we're talking about story. Unfortunately, I can't say the same to controls. Same thing for Heroes. As for Unleashed and Rush series, these guys really deserve to be in the good position. They have a solid gameplay that still works until this day, a simple but good story, momentum you can gain by memorizing the level's layout, and so on. Yes, both have their issues (especially in Unleashed's case with the Werehog levels), but I think the good stuff surpasses the bad.

[@kingtiger5040]

@elmemearana5483 Unfortunately,gameplay is more important than story though Black Knight is much superior to Secret Rings in every measure(this doesn't mean that you shouldn't enjoy them both). Unleashed basically is 20% peak sonic gameplay and 80% werehog.The game would have been the amazing if the werehog gameplay was as polished as the daytime gameplay and Rush -according to me-has impressive gameplay but poor level design(not Sonic 4 level though)

[@iamlaw8848]

Dang this is some the best lore I've heard in the Sonic Franchise

[@thesmilingman7576]

0:24 no earlier Sonic 2 (which states an achient civilization existed on West Side Island tried to misuse the emeralds and were wiped out because of it in the JPN manual) perhaps Westside South anf Angel Island and maybe even Carnival Island were all part of the same pand mass at some point before the Knuckles Clan decided to use the emeralds in their war against the Nocturnes Clan

[@PaperADRiAN]

Amazing video, I just love good Sonic lore and Adventure 1 and 2 are full of it. But you also made me enjoy Frontiers story more, I really hope update 3 fixes the biggest flaw with it!

[@RosyTheRed]

I love Sonic history. Especially in the adventure games.

[@sm_cheesy3144]

I think 15:22 is an interesting point of discussion, as although we see them move on and ascend to the sky, the Sonic Frontiers Prologue shows they are both still alive and present in some capacity, even if only spiritually. Maybe Tikal's seal keeps them apart of the master emerald, but since Chaos's hatred and rage is gone they now help Knuckles protect the emerald. May be a bit of a retcon but I wouldn't mind seeing them reappear more to flesh out Knuckles's character.

[@zeehero7280]

I imagine that the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald are as old as the Sonic Universe, and were scattered and gathered a few times before the ancients used them.

[@MastaGambit]

Frontiers basically recontextualizes everything from SA1. And for me as an old fan, it's all incredibly surreal. Ian Flynn pretty much opened the narrative floodgates; in terms of worldbuilding there hasn't been anything this significant in the games canon since... I wanna say Unleashed. And then the man also had the audacity to just outright connect the comic book (as well as sonic boom!?!?!) canon to the games with those few bits of dialogue from Sonic and co. mentioning Tangle and Sticks. Like wtf LOL

[@R00M409]

this is exactly why we need an SA1 remake. Imagine these cutscenes without the technical limitations

[@supman64]

I really love these lore videos that you do they’re very interesting and I would honestly like to see more of you discussing about stuff like this.

[@chaomix]

More to come!

[@Averagebasementman]

@@chaomixyay!

[@LannyLeArtist]

@@chaomix hurrah

[@Xipe-totex]

I always wondered if they did sacrifices since they’re based off mesoamerican tribes in particular the Mayans. Tikal was an Important “capital” of the Mayans and even though their far away, pachacamac was similar just far south in Peru So I wondered if they did sacrifices and it’s my head cannon that they did

[@ProdBy.JayLo3]

Echidna tribe dark souls game would go crazy

[@cosmicfails2053]

It was really cool for frontiers to make its story serve to give this kind of background to such a classical part of sonic lore

[@SanicBoi]

I am absolutely loving this kind of content. Keep it up dude! 👍

[@Hynotama]

We don’t know that the ancient devolved into chao, but it would explain Chaos’ fondness for them. We also don’t that a chao mutated into Chaos. It is more likely that one of the ancients became Chaos, perhaps due to not having one of those koco avatars or maybe due to closer interaction with the power of the Master Emerald, maybe an ancient precursor of the Guardians of the Master Emerald. Again, it would explain Chaos’ fondness for the chao. Also Chaos does not reside IN the Master Emerald, but rather he merges with the surrounding waters. He has only been inside the Master Emerald after Tikal imprisoned him inside it and only until the Master Emerald was broken in Sonic Adventure. It also seems like Chaos is more interested in protecting the chao, rather than the emeralds, seeing as how in SA2, Rouge clearly took the Master Emerald into the desert, before Knuckles stopped her. That’s also when Knuckles himself broke the Master Emerald and Chaos was nowhere to be found, further proving that Chaos resides on Angel Island (if the Sonic Frontiers prologue animation is to be believed).

[@devinhamb6586]

This, if executed well or okay, could be a very interesting story for Knuckles in the Idw comics. Because Knuckles has barley done anything in idw especially when compared to archie. For the most part he's a minor character at best and background character at worst. In Sonic DX, when Knuckles is shown the past of his people, he only saw the bare minimum. So a story of him learning about the dark history of his clan and how he deals with that info would be interesting for his character.

[@Averagebasementman]

Is it just me or do the chaos emeralds in the SADX flashbacks look more like the super emeralds? I mean the fact they are bigger and on pillars surrounding the master emerald it gives off a Sonic 3 and Knuckles super emerald altar vibe. It could just be me or maybe it was a little nod to those who played Sonic 3 and Knuckles and unlocked Hyper Sonic or at the very least found the secret giant ring knuckles tried to hide.

[@kaijionline]

It’s a ritual to watch Chaomix videos while I eat

[@dNks_BOI]

you actually inspired me to do my own sonic marathon. its a short one where i play all 4 classics, both episodes of sonic 4 and both adventure games. and im starting adventure 1 soon. came out at the perfect time. i might watch this video before i play just to get caught up with the echidna tribe lore.

[@charleschamp9826]

With all the fan characters in the fandom and people making characters based on single lines of dialog, etc. I'm surprised I've only ever seen a single person tackle making Grandma into a character.

[@Poyostar]

Y'know, I'm a little curious if things could've been different here; what if the echidnas weren't wiped out? What if Knuckles wasn't the last of his kind? Hmm... In any case, this is a solid video covering this piece of Sonic lore!

[@jeanlsmrio]

I love world building in any form of media, And the fact that Sonic games from way different eras are all connected in some way like 3&k, sa1 and frontiers is just music to my ears.

[@iheartbacon76]

thanks for this awesome content. I love the more lore based videos of yours!

[@iexist8675]

Eggmans depiction of evil tails is honestly really cool

[@ALegendaryBlueHedge]

1:02 The tonal shift in music in this part was just hilarious

[@chaomix]

gotta stay silly sometimes

[@markdpane]

You know, if you think about it, Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are very similar to each other. In terms of gameplay, both games have a main roster of six playable characters, including Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, plus another major character in the franchise (Amy in Adventure 1, and Eggman in Adventure 2, with the other appearing as a major NPC in the other game), a new major character meant to have a recurring presence in the series (Big in Adventure 1, and Rouge in Adventure 2), and a new anti-heroic character with ties to Eggman, who's apparently killed at the climax of their side of the story (Gamma in Adventure 1, and Shadow in Adventure 2; though as later games would establish, Gamma's legacy would live on in Omega, and Shadow survived the big fall at the end of Adventure 2 at the cost of losing his memory, which he would recover from as time progressed). Both games also have the main style of 3D gameplay, plus treasure hunting stages, shooting stages, a kart racing minigame, and of course, the Chao Garden with Chao Race. The plots of both games are similar too. Both involve an expansion on the lore of one main character's ancestors (Knuckles' ancient tribe in Adventure 1, and Eggman's family in Adventure 2), and we see flashbacks of them during the game, with the actions of one individual of great authority from these times (Pachacamac in Adventure 1, and Gerald Robotnik in Adventure 2) influencing the present day conflict, and also featuring a younger relative of theirs (Tikal in Adventure 1, and Maria in Adventure 2) who wants peace, with their own influence helping the heroes during the conflict (in the form of Tikal herself appearing as a spirit in Adventure 1, and Shadow fulfilling Maria's dying wish in Adventure 2). The plots also have Eggman's forces obtaining six of the Chaos Emeralds, with the last one being held by Sonic and his pals until they lose it near the end, and involve some vicious creature with ties to the ancestors' story (Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Biolizard in Adventure 2), with the climax having Super Sonic fight to save the world from a more powerful version of these beasts (Perfect Chaos in Adventure 1, and the Finalhazard in Adventure 2).

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Exactly, ive always loved that. And im sure they were aware of it, as the climax of the game happens literally at the ME altar, as well as "Madness" being basically the second part to "Danger!" track from SA1, and it is the only SA1 track that gets such a heavy reference in 2. Its like poetry, it rhymes etc etc

[@winterice2022]

This sure was interesting to watch about the knuckles tribe

[@Vantoxify]

God I love Sonic lore, it’s so cool. It’s why I love the world, the characters, and the stories

[@dima_keller]

Why do you have to make such good videos? Now my Sonic obsession is coming back 😭 Oh well guess it's time to install some of the games I haven't played yet 😅

[@hornie_pie_7861]

Makes me wonder, how do the dark Gaia and the light Gaia emerald shrines fit into this?

[@aaronwatson1432]

Yes! This is the kind of Sonic story that I've always loved.

[@ssh4656]

YES FINALLY MORE SONIC'S DARKEST LORE VIDEOS I LOVE THESE VIDEOS THEY R THE BEST. also please make the next episode of sonic's darkest lore let it be the story of solaris and princess elise

[@thenewguyinred]

In the Sonic Movie lore the Echidna Tribe was already power hungry from the start, and the Archie Sonic lore is a whole can of worms that I don’t wanna talk about.

[@Shin_Mothra]

Love it when Chaomix breaks out the dramatic narrator voice.

[@RiCCreate]

Too bad Ken Penders prevents this topic from being explored further. It has so many possibilities for the series to explore.

[@Spoken05]

Awesome content Chaomix!

[@ZetaEntity101]

It's really cool to learn about these sonic facts in these videos

[@thomashallletsplays3340]

Damn this hole goes incredibly deep.

[@real.exotic]

Ayyy a new chaomix video also u sound so serious in the intro

[@self-absorbed5269]

For crying out loud , they never said they created the Chaos Emeralds. They could just as easily be from the same planet , and got ejected to another planet. Because the Master Emerald could neutralize all forms of chaotic energy. As for why and how things happened , open ended writing is good for sequels.

[@TheFlamesOfD]

i've been waiting for this...for so long...

[@EmuEmi]

Amazing video, man!

[@Prime_Legend]

Frontiers feels like a sequel to SA1.

[@TheSwordsman100]

Chaos and Tikal did not go to the afterlife, as implied the image you get at the end they instead both go back to Angel Island. (Both even making a small cameo on Angel Island in Frontiers Divergence) Chaos even helps out and is playable in Sonic Battle and if Ian is to be believed is responsible for holding the oceans in place in Sonic Unleashed. Chaos' continued presence also helps explain why Knuckles OK with just leaving the ME unguarded when he goes off to help Sonic.

[@maryafantalia4357]

Um... For Divergence it was just a flashback.

[@TheSwordsman100]

@@maryafantalia4357 No it wasn't, you can clearly see both Tikal (in orb form) and Chaos (in puddle form, as water doesn't ripple that way naturally) after the flash back around the 1:08 mark in modern day.

[@BlueBlur_37]

There’s just something I didn't understand If Chaos and Tikal moved on the "afterlife" then why did we see Tikal in her glowing form in the Knuckles prologue?

[@TheSwordsman100]

Because they actually didn't, heck Chaos even helps out in Sonic Battle.

[@Its_a_me_mario_wahoo]

Love your thumbnails. They are one of my favorite sonic fan artworks

[@McDanklestank]

A knuckles game where you travel back in time or someone shit learning more about the echidna tribe would be nuts

[@johnnypollack3243]

Keep up the great work and videos chaomix

[@SoranotRoxas]

Back when Sega cared about Knuckles backstory ☺

[@thesmilingman7576]

7:04 I guess this how the war between them and Nocturnes clan started

[@hey_perception]

this was super well done. very interesting

[@Channelgraveyard]

there aint no way nobody didnt die in station square tho

[@QwerpOS]

I'm all for dark lore so long as it has meaning to it, but there is nothing wrong with light-hearted-ness, especially when the world itself is so uncertain and chaotic these days. Helps to inspire hope rather than just going "ah, everything is bad, accept it", because that isn't mature. Personally, I feel that things should be handled like Kirby: relatively fun narratives that become darker over time and also have either or both dark and light backstories for lore and world-building purposes.

[@kingtiger5040]

This

[@wakkaseta8351]

Did you just forget that the meta era of Sonic was a thing?

[@QwerpOS]

@@wakkaseta8351 Do you understand the concept of levity and "lightening the mood", or do you expect a series about a thrill-seeking blue hedgehog with a cool and carefree attitude to go full grimdark? Even dark stories use light-heartedness to ease the tension, otherwise everything is depressing and conveys a lack of hope.

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@QwerpOS Let me guess, you're one of those people who complained that Shadow the Hedgehog the game took itself too seriously?

[@QwerpOS]

@@wakkaseta8351 Nah, I liked Shadow the Hedgehog and found the game goofy and fun to play. What about it?

[@Jon-MichaelMcLaughlin]

B-b-b *BLOOD* but the children Choamix *THE CHILDREN!!!*

[@tracytron7162]

Pretty sure the ancients settled on the Starfall islands first, and then settled on what would become Angel Island *afterwards*...

[@WiIliyum]

This video was very well edited gj

[@cuerdencats4151]

This is super well researched~ Awesome video!!

[@STAXONDECK1]

Sonic Adventure had the best setting and story yet to be topped especially the flashback areas and mystic ruins adventure area and stages

[@Symptomatic315]

Shadow and the Echidnas have so much depth. I wish Sega would explore the Hedgehogs history. Maybe we’d finally get an answer to why male hedgehogs are the only ones able to harness the power of the Chaos Emeralds.

[@kaijionline]

Yippee new Chaomix video

[@AhLottaAntwan]

wow sonic writers where in their BAG with the lore

[@veba_7593]

So I'm not sure, is Knuckles aware of his tribe's history? Or does he even care lol

[@chaomix]

After the events of SA1 he definitely is lol

[@PKGangsta18]

@3:11 And Marble Garden are remnants of Mystic Run