Characteristics of Late Romantic Harmony (Book 3, CH 26)

[@AllanLobo]

Thank you KZbin algorithm. A breath of fresh air to watch a straight forward, quiet class with no background music and no yippity influencer tone of voice

[@AllanLobo]

Instant subscribe

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. I use these videos in my theory classes, and they prefer a rather straight forward approach as well.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for all the "Nice" replies!

[@janefrancine]

Nice sir you just got a new sub!

[@szymon200000]

Nice

[@eduardodelarosa7404]

that's the romantic word

[@MiScusi69]

Nice

[@dudezgamez550]

Nice

[@aidanmays7825]

Highly suggest anyone wanting to compose in this style and understand this music more deeply study composition in the way these composers actually learned. Partimento, formal counterpoint, and improvisational practices. Chopin is essentially the first step of breaking from and recombining standard schemata. Life changing study

[@nasirferguson4098]

What recourses can I use? Do you know any other videos

[@aidanmays7825]

@@nasirferguson4098 en blanc et noir has a lot of great videos on these things

[@_sidereal]

I'm curious about how partimento applies to romantic era composition. Most of the partimento resources I've seen were based on the 18th century style.

[@aidanmays7825]

@_sidereal Yes, the resources absolutely are, but they were used to train all of the great composers up through even Mahler, Wagner, Rachmaninoff. Partimento and Counterpoint made up the foundation. The channel en Blanc et Noir has a lot of good info

[@ramonmerinorojas8535]

I am not a musician so I did not understand anything. But even so, this video is really relaxing to watch. You are like the Bob Ross of music theory!

[@bkehlenb]

Glad you found it relaxing! I had a student once tell me that I reminded her of Bob Ross!

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

This made me think about the jazz standard Stella by starlight which started as a piece in a late romantic (film score) style. In Stella there are great number of strong beat dissonances, all of which eventually resolve but jazz musicians treat as colour tones. It strikes me that that is a really good example of the shift from romantic to jazz/colour tone harmony just by interpreting non chord tones differently.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your interesting post! That’s a great connection you make to the nature of Stella by Starlight.

[@johannalvarsson9299]

Look at Debussy, as far as I know Charlie Parker was very interested in it, but it might very well also have been a cross-influence between jazz- and "classical" music. Debussys music is at a point where it is really hard to decide if a dissonance is being resolved or not, even if that sounds weird in the beginning.

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

@@johannalvarsson9299 undoubtedly. Tbh I don’t know enough about Debussy’s music to comment on the specifics. One interesting thread is the influence of sub Saharan traditional harmony on jazz; there’s a paper called something like that (can’t remember the name of the musicologist.) well worth a look if you can track it down. Jazz has its own ‘layered’ way of doing things.

[@JazzGuitarScrapbook]

@@johannalvarsson9299 gerhard kubik

[@bkehlenb]

Yes, Debussy often represents a style where there is a stylistic change with regard to the treatment of upper-structure chord tones. Gershwin often claimed influence from Debussy and other French composers, and the"cross-influence" also seems apparent in Ravel. @@johannalvarsson9299

[@kurthartle5473]

Fascinating! I especially appreciate the analysis of the Mahler, which helps to explain how such expression and deep pathos was made possible.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks - I'm glad you liked the analysis.

[@sciagurrato1831]

Not completely convinced as the Mahler is melody-driven with “colorful” (slightly dissonant) chords. A lyric approach versus the symphonic approach of advanced harmony such as Wagner and Bruckner where the harmonic changes are integral to structure (hence meaning) of the larger composition.

[@jboushka]

I was fascinated with how the Symphony 1 un D Miinor (1901) by Dohnanyi does this kind of thing. He is constantly "setting you up" -- most of all in the closing triumphant fuga that goes back to the first movement for an idea. The symphony is large and set up like a Mahler work (esp the 5th, in 5 movements with rigorous form). While rarely played it sounds very familiar the first time you hear it, maybe because Hollywood has copied from it sometimes in its film noirs of the past. (The harmonic effect does resemble Brahms more than Bruckner and Mahler. The same with the Amy Beach Piano Concerto in C# Minor which is almost another "Brahms" concerto.)

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for the recommendations, John. I'll definitely go back and give these pieces a listen.

[@jboushka]

@@bkehlenb Try looking at the cadenza in the 1st movement the Beach piano concerto at kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXy8c5t-gJqNnpY , using these chromatic techniques. The violent end of the first movement seems inspired by Brahms's first piano concerto, and she brings the same harmonies back in a triumphant finale. Why isn't the played more often? Also look at d'Albert's first piano concerto, finished by age 20, inspired by the Liszt B Minor sonata, but adding on a fugal cadenza that is almost twelve-tonal and then adding on a triumphant conclusion. The work is little known but will sound very familiar even at first playing on YT. Hollywood knows about this work.

[@Rene-uz3eb]

Chopin just being tonally ambiguous af. It seems to be very common in classical to include/announce the 4th in an ambiguous chord with multiple tonal centers like a minor or augmented chord, to which (circle of fifth) the harmony is moving to in the next step, kind of overlapping chord progressions, which is maybe what gives classical music its characteristic dissonance. Like on 9:54, that augmented Bb D F# includes the G in the bass which sounds dissonant, but the next step is a G power chord, ie circle move from the earlier D to G. In pop, that G would not be squished onto the augmented chord. 10:51 same going on here, the F being predicted/part of most earlier chords, where instead C is emphasized, before the C chord finally dissolves away

[@johannalvarsson9299]

In 9:54 the actual dissonance is the F#. It is the leading tone that kind of "got stuck" and resolves a bit too late, e.g. a suspension. This is a very common passage, emerging in the 17th century, where it was a rhetorical figure called "mora".

[@williambrewer3150]

You know... a lot of the traits you've mentioned here is fairly decently adhered to in a number of electronic circles. There's essentially no dominant->tonic progression, few harmonic tones in melodies on the downbeat, modulation, if there is any, moves the pieces to very remote key areas sometimes using modes or planar motion, and there's an enormous reliance on movements using thirds. I hear this especially in Japanese electronic music.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. This is an interesting observation.

[@johannalvarsson9299]

Even "mainstream pop" has almost entirely abandonned functional harmony. It just shows that there is no universal theory of music, but that almost all styles require their own set of analysis-tools and concepts.

[@luxinveritate3365]

Thank you for the refresher on romantic harmonic characteristics, its been a while since I've revisited the subject.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you found it interesting.

[@Curocko]

Thank you for the in depth analysis and free information. I compare what you’ve uploaded here favorably against the books I’ve read. Your (detailed) focus on analyzing this chromaticism as arriving from varying tendencies and sources set this above many of the things I’ve read, which will describe voice leadings or functional purposes but rarely talk about the motivations or tendencies that produce this harmonic language

[@johannalvarsson9299]

Agree, but to be fair most of these motivations and tendencies are understandable from a historical perspective, which is why a decent academic schedule of music-theory spans two years. The influence of counterpoint is even more important for music of the 17th and 18th century and it kind of makes me depressed that the popular music theory-channels on youtube basically give you the impression that music-theory would basically be identical with jazz-harmony.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks so much for your comment. I agree that trying to get to the "motivation" is what makes analysis interesting.

[@Curocko]

@@johannalvarsson9299 Yeah I sympathize a lot with that. I guess it's just that even in pretty advanced works I find there's an allergy to speculation about motivations behind the kind of harmonic syntaxes late romantics would tend towards. I agree a lot about counterpoint. A lot of the pop music theory content definitely neglects to address voice leading and contrapuntal motivations for common chord progressions. Sometimes it is frustrating because that exact impression about classical and jazz would lead someone to think classical composers had very elementary harmonic thinking, or were harmonically unsophisticated, since they did not use as much abundant chromaticism.

[@HishamGabr00]

Dear Sir, I am a professional musician, and yet I really enjoy the way you put all information in a form that stick well to mind and evokes curiosity to further investigation. Would you be so kind and tell me how to find your book and, how to find the first 25 chapters to watch? I went to your channel, but there are no separate play list to this amazing journey, found some chapters but not all. Thank you for your amazing take on harmony and thank you for your time.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks so much for your comment! In bottom of the video description, there are links to three textbooks that are available on Amazon. They start with music fundamentals and get as far as chromatic harmony. On your suggestion, I added links to three playlists in the description as well, to make them easier to find.

[@HishamGabr00]

@@bkehlenb thank you so much, and again thank for you systematic refreshment of our knowledge

[@romulo-mello]

an observation: the added 6 on mahler's excerpt seems to me like a suspension of the 5th of the dominant. It can perhaps be considered a 13th chord

[@luxinveritate3365]

Generally if it functions like a 13.

[@johannalvarsson9299]

@@luxinveritate3365 Can I ask what the difference between a (add)6th and a 13th chord is?

[@luxinveritate3365]

@@johannalvarsson9299 add6 is a color. Gdominant 13 would function as a dominant chord with an dissonance called anticipation of E that is sustained or repeated in the following C or A chord.

[@johannalvarsson9299]

​@@luxinveritate3365 Ok, so if we are talking about the last quarter-note of measure 2, then it is clearly a melodic phenomenon that carries no harmonic function but is ornamental. That it is ornamental does not mean its not important, but on a different level than structural (e.g. chord-) notes. But maybe we just come from different theoretical backgrounds. The music-theory in the tradition of Riemann, De la Motte, Gjaerdingen etc. has a very clear distinction between structural and ornamental notes, and such if you call the 6th a suspension, it by definition cannot be a 13th-chord but a normal dominant chord with 6-5 suspension. Thats why I was confused. Maybe the tradition you learned does view things differently, so I am not claiming that what I just said is the only valid way to see things.

[@luxinveritate3365]

@@johannalvarsson9299 I know that upper extensions started as nonchord tones which is why sus chords exist and even 7th chords were originally prepared and resolved as dissonance. But their use became cliche so they began to be used without preparation. Until they just became chords themselves. I see the 13th and most extensions in that light as a form of dissonance and at times the add6 feels like a say Cadd6 feels like an am7 instead.

[@someguy5261]

It's pretty funny that through the current harmonic era, romantic through the impressionists at the turn of the century, dissonance has taken on a new meaning, there is no need to resolve dissonances anymore as long as they a) Arise through stepwise melodic motion, they can stay as long as they like, or b) came to the sonority through common tone. A frozen non chord tone, very modern, not even in the outer voices, Chopin doesn't break a sweat lol.

[@SamTahbou]

I think i just stumbled upon a fascinating channel, I'll be browsing your channel for a few hours this weekend. Thank you

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. I'm glad you found it interesting.

[@arashkamalian]

Amazing as always, Dr. Kehlenbach

[@bkehlenb]

Hi Arash. Nice to hear from you!

[@theoperacompany5849]

In what world is Chopin late romantic? Mahler’s melodic dissonances in that example always resolve to a triadic note, even if they aren’t always prepared. The appoggiatura is an endemic feature of the classical era 150 years before, and just never died out, but rather intensified.

[@rdpatterson2682]

I hear Ennio Morricone in Mahler’s Adagietto. Hearing it on piano brings that out. thx.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. It's interesting to find these kinds of influences in film composers.

[@helpmaboabb]

The 64k question is .. did the composers think "I'll just write some stuff avoiding linear progression" or possibly "hmm...i like this, but I'll leave it to the scholars to make a living out of it".

[@pjbpiano]

Most of what they wrote was already theorized. They simply applied it practically.

[@joshuacervenkamusic327]

I love this kinda stuff. Subbed!

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your endorsement!

[@janosmarothy5409]

Nice. But maybe I part ways with the analysis of the Chopin excerpt a little bit. I think the linear analysis and Roman numeral analysis both point to the same logic: the progression is a pretty straight ahead circle of fifths sequence, with the diminished 7ths as rootless dominants.

[@simonragnarson22]

The last Bb appogiatura in bar 6 of the mahler reduction is playad as a C in the piano. Just wanted to point that out. Nice video! ☺️

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for watching and listening carefully! I had another commenter a few months back also point out that error.

[@AlexFlavell]

precursor to jazz harmony 🤙

[@dfghdfghuytiu8207]

I was taught to abandon Roman numeral analysis when you hit a sequence. And even as far back as Bach, harmonic progressions are often motivated by melodic movement, rather than the other way round. Especially stepwise movement in the bass.

[@dfghdfghuytiu8207]

On reflection, I think it’s more accurate to say that in Bach chorales, melody and harmony are equal partners. That’s part of his greatness. I learned Harmony 1 in college, but I never got to the part about how it was used by specific composers. I’m looking forward to watching all your videos.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comments and observations. I would have to agree that the Roman numeral analysis is awkward for this and other sequences, and generally when analyzing, it's best and easiest to just point out the sequence. However, the harmonic analysis in this passage does reveal a clear and interesting pattern of half diminished 7 going to dominant 7 around the circle of 5ths - and this matches the chord qualities of iiø7 to V7 in these descending transient key areas.

[@azureNotsure]

Nice. Love this!

[@Todzuum]

I might have to pick up this book 3

[@Joseph-mv3rz]

Im hoping that im right when i think that the tune in the thumbnail is mahlers 5th, adagietto

[@김종훈-i8t]

Thanks for very informative video and so kind detiled explanation!

[@bkehlenb]

You're welcome! I'm glad that you found it interesting.

[@athinaios-1959]

Which book is that???

[@composer7325]

Thank you so much for this brilliant video.

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for watching and for your comment.

[@sandia2beaumont]

Superb analysis! I am very passionate about modern music but I've always felt that for sheer harmonic power and efficiency, the Adagietto from Mahler's 5th Symphony constitutes a pinnacle that may never have been surpassed since (by which I do NOT mean I think that subsequent music was not as good or better). Others may have a different take. I'd love to hear their examples!

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for your comment. I can see why you gravitate to this piece.

[@justintuccimusic]

2:34

[@Whatismusic123]

3:35 of course it looks confusing to you, because the analysis is absolutely horrible. The key of F minor, is never left, there is not a single modulation in that passage.

[@Barichter74318]

Ah yes, mazurka op 6 no 1 in _f minor_ my favorite piece. Also for the sake of everyone's sanity in the classical music community, please touch grass

[@Whatismusic123]

@@Barichter74318 oh I am SO sorry for not writing "sHarP" how could I do such a HORRIBLE thing? Oh lord, what a disgrace I am, to make a silly ERROR, oh golly oh gee Take your own advice

[@Whatismusic123]

@@Barichter74318 average zeannah erose subscriber

[@Barichter74318]

@@Whatismusic123 Oh believe me, i usually hate it when people make fun of others for their small mistakes. But isn't it a little bit ironic that you will insult everyone for their smallest "mistakes" (usually they are not mistakes, they are just things that you don't like) and actually try to somehow justify it by saying everything you like is objectively good and all others are objectively bad. I really hope you will someday understand that music is subjective or make any arguments defending your bullshit claims (which we both know you are not capable of), I would strongly recommend you do literally anything than wasting your time insulting everybody

[@Barichter74318]

Anyways, the reply above is essentially useless since you are so deep in your idiotic beliefs, you won't accept any criticism about yourself. I sincerely hope you get well soon

[@Barichter74318]

Very helpful video. Really appreciate the analysises you gave

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks! And I appreciate your comment.

[@SCRIABINIST]

Amazing video sir!

[@bkehlenb]

Thanks for watching!

[@bentleycharles779]

Brilliant. Thank you.

[@bkehlenb]

I appreciate your comment. Thanks for watching.

[@ApsisApocynthion]

Your analysis of non-chord tones seems too rigid. Ironically, for the very reason you pointed out in the very beginning as a characteristic: horizontal harmony. That F isn't "frozen", it's a pedal tone (very common in Mahler), which resolves later to the Eb. Mahler may play lose with dissonances, but every tone is very deliberate. The term "frozen" is also never really used. I have heard "unprepared" or unresolved appoggiaturas" instead. However, I don't that is what's happening here. The start of Mahler 5th, 4th mov. is super simple. It helps to not overcomplicate things. Also, dominant 9ths are fairly standard for Mahler and his contemporaries. Along with various replacements of the V chord altogether such as: IV, Ct/I, bII, iii, and their variations/alterations. As for the Chopin, when you're dealing with a series of chromatic sequences you just have to remember one thing. A chromatic sequence is the same as a phrase modulation. This a type of direct modulation only supported by a previously established melodic material. So, no point in trying to connect everything in one key. These are a series of short modulations that never establish themselves and travel step wise down until we reach F# again.

[@privatemcs8395]

06:48

[@matthewcassie5741]

Nice

[@scottfoster3643]

Wonderful explanations thank you good sir :}

[@khaledshokry5070]

Thank you

[@thephantonecoop]

Very helpful

[@santiagotrejo1434]

NICE

[@jamesbyrne5131]

nice

[@capedan2797]

Error at 8:24 in the performance: a C-natural in the treble where a B-flat should be. Surprised nobody heard it. Nice, otherwise.

[@RobberZhi]

Or, we heard it and weren’t boorish enough to point it out

[@bkehlenb]

Yeah - kind of glaring!

[@animatechap5176]

Nnnice

[@spatialfrequency6707]

What’s with all the “Nice” comments lol

[@whaijorhujishkomunykvherli7043]

Nice

[@henkvrieling9586]

KZbin is hypocriet

[@armandolasa3717]

Not to be a troll but Roman numeral analysis is for non musicians.

[@BattleCattleSA]

i know what the vocabulary means at this point but it still annoys me.

[@usaroman]

To bad the piano examples are full of phasing problems and very unbearable to listen to😢

[@TTFMjock]

This is all just standard jazz harmony

[@andreparoni]

where do you think it came from in the first place?

[@PastPerspectives11]

☠️

[@johannalvarsson9299]

Exactly not, as jazz-harmony has virtually eliminated the contrapunctal elements, which is very logical for a music that heavily relies on improvisation rather than a rigidly fixed form.

[@TTFMjock]

@@johannalvarsson9299 Bill Evans could easily use these exact piano voicings and voice leading. As for counterpoint, that's more stylistic than harmonic.

[@johannalvarsson9299]

@@TTFMjock Depends on the definition of counterpount, but I agree as long as we look at a single player. What I meant is a) that there is less emphasis on voice leading across multiple instuments/players. b) the focus of jazz-harmony AS IT IS TAUGHT is the chord, not the interval. In notation, you will often see chord-symbols that interpet ornamental melody-notes as parts of a chord. This is a different approach in the conceptualization of harmony than the first point listed at 1:04. Anyway, this is a too complicated topic for this comment-section-format.

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[@unnamed_boi]

(jokes aside, great analysis on late-romantic style harmony !!)

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