Charismatic Church Governance

[@BobbyU808]

josh would have been a good lawyer because of his ability to see things from an overarching perspective, his ability to reason, and his ability to present complex ideas simply and clearly and in a way understandable to the common man. his church is blessed of god to have such a man in a position of leadership. maranatha

[@AnitaMaartens]

Agreed. I'm also ADhD/dyslexic, grew up in a hyper charismatic environment then jumped straight into ministry person, so every single time he breaks down concepts for digestion, it is sooooooo relatable and often makes me chuckle.

[@marthad1002]

Agree. Michael is a much needed voice in the church at large. What a give to the Remnant Radio to share his wisdom and love for the truth.

[@Tcromb]

Man, I really wish you would have touched on house churches. I've seen a lot of people moving that direction lately and it would be interesting to talk through some of those dynamics.

[@markridlen4380]

Yeah, it's interesting to think about. I have only attended one house church, and it's the one my uncle runs so I might be biased. I don't think they take an offering or anything and they take turns giving the lesson. So in some ways it avoids a lot of the money-specific corruption issues. The potential for excommunication abuse is still there. I also have heard of cult organizations that adopt a house church model, and cults normally take the moses model or presbyterian model, so they aren't mutually exclusive.

[@donchichivagabond1578]

People are moving towards house churches in America since the filthy money hungry and the world appealing nature of the modern-day churches emulate.

[@Charleston4Jesus]

Yeah I have been exploring the house church model and the Microchurch model networks most known Micro networks the KC Underground and the Tampa Underground networks. I do see a move towards a more simpler form of church on a smaller level I think because the larger church model is such a mess and most of the larger church model in America is based on a business model that is not good. House church model also comes with its own challenges. I have seen cults and other legalistic churches adapting to the house church model so be discerning. House church networks should have some kind of orthodox Christian belief statement on hand to look at and go over so you know you not walking into a cult or heretical. I was contacted about a house church in my area that was in alignment with the Restoration Movement. I had no idea what movement that was so I had to research. Its tied to the Church of Christ that in my view is legalistic. So just becareful because cults and other forms have also adapted to the house church model but that should not stop us from seeking it out or start one of our own. There is always going to be cults and legalist around no matter the model of church.

[@markridlen4380]

@@Charleston4Jesus I think there is a general misconception that cults are groups that believe heretical or unorthodox things. A cult actually has a lot more to do with enforcing beliefs and controlling people, to exploit them for money or services. There are many cults which are not religions, for example NXIVM which was a MLM. In this light, an exhaustive doctrinal statement can actually be an indicator of a cult, rather than a deterrent, since the goal is enforcing conformity among members (thought and information control). Steve Hassan's BITE model is a good starting place to learn about the strategies that authoritarian groups employ.

[@Charleston4Jesus]

@@markridlen4380 Yes I know there is many forms of cult like behavior that usually has an authoritarian figure at the top that is controlling. But there is cults like Mormons and JW's that has a man or false prophet that started it that while the language sounds biblical but the doctrinal meaning is heretical and false teaching. Sound doctrine matters. In other nations that is not as free as America say like China. When we look at the explosion of the underground church in China they have a doctrinal statement they have signed onto for that reason so believers will know them by their fruit of doctrine and character. The Underground China network leaders came up with "The House Church Confession of Faith" signed on by Shen Zhang and other House church network leaders in China. There is house church networks in America that have an Orthodox Christian statement of beliefs and may have an add on evangelical missional statement like the Lausanne Covenant. I believe doctrinal statements is important because its hard enough to get people to even try house church because of the challenges. The first thing I check when looking at visiting a church in the traditional model is statement of beliefs on their website because I got to know is this church liberal in theology? Are they progressive? Emergent? Cessationist? OR are they solid in the historic orthodox Christian faith. These other systems have adapted to the house church model too. True even with these statements of beliefs you can still have cult like tendencies in a power structure like we have seen in the larger churches. So the goal of house church model is not to bring the larger model structure into the house church.

[@pianomanny1397]

I am a councilman in an AG church with the “Moses” model, authoritarian leader who is from the beginning of the the 3rd wave group who has little theological foundation and basically takes a position of “This is a Pastor run church not a board run church”. He has no accountability to the regional or state level leadership and has evaded any level of relationship with those levels of leadership. I said all that to say that Miller’s assessment of this model is spot-on. It is destructive as a board member and does not lead to an enriching church experience. Thanks for an intelligent discussion.

[@davidbull-wo8vb]

This is exactly what I’ve seen and experienced through several levels of contact with regional leadership after 10 months at a local AOG church here in Washington state! I call it the Rambo model! This authoritarian preacher also leads long worship and is the loud voice doing 95% of the speaking, interpreting the many wild tongues, and all the anointing and laying on of hands during extended ministry! The Sunday service runs from 1030-1 😫

[@KM-zn3lx]

@davidbull....I attended my husband's AOG for 3 years after my exodus out of Catholic church. They had a very good biblical pastor att but I never joined his church because of the doctrine of egalitarianism and saying a person is baptized in Holy Spirit only if they speak in tongues. Now, a new Pastor is there and trying to expand the church, he constantly talks about tithing, and hired youth Pastor who makes a show of trying to pump the congregation up during worship. I'm leaving which is a shame cuz I finally got to worship with my husband but ai can't take it anymore. I'm just gonna find a nice Christian church. Baptist are 5 point Calvinist and I can't agreed with that either!

[@KM-zn3lx]

@davidbull...are you gonna leave? It doesn't sound tenable.

[@davidbull-wo8vb]

Yes I’m not going to stay. When I first visited I felt the Holy Spirit impress Numbers 11 on my heart concerning expanding leadership and ministry help through Spirit’s outpouring. I shared this with the pastor before I even thought to call it the “Moses model”. How ironic in hindsight he probably thought I was being like Miriam. He completely ignored my insight and acted dumbfounded as to why I would bring up the passage. He is wild and careless with his Bible interpretations like binding demons/sickness and throat punching the devil…said that we can lose our salvation like we lose our car keys 🤮

[@gregmccarty331]

Love listening to the 3 of youse together ; excellent discussion guys LORD Bless and Keep y'all 🙏❤️

[@tripletgirl2484]

Interesting and informative conversation. For me differentiating what John Wimber and CPeter Wagner believed was very helpful.

[@geneanuts]

In the early '80's a number of men came through our area saying they were "apostles". I believe God raises up leaders. They don't have to go around announcing their calling. I had no idea where that came from until watching this.

[@elizabeth01223]

I totally agree with the comment from @Tromb, I would love to see a show on House churches and what you all think about that model.

[@heathersnyder6047]

Such necessary information and conversation. Thanks!

[@Abbasgirl312]

Excellent teaching!

[@ayushlal6971]

If there is one thing I would want all charismatic to watch is this and this

[@matthewb252able]

Good job gentlemen ❤ this is very helpful. From early on with the IHOP situation I felt like the issues really sprung from not having good governance

[@rissacross1036]

Brisket Chili for the win Michael 💪🏻. My husband made a brisket chili on a smoker that dripped all the flavors into the sauce with jalepenos. It won our church chili cook off big time! Haha

[@dudedarkness]

Josh was out of line... we should all be excited for brisket chili! 😅😂

[@patriciataff2249]

Miller nailed it with the Moses model and Narcissistic leaders…applied to Mike Bickel at IHOP.

[@briannabarclay5396]

Please interview Bishop Mari Emmanuel!

[@gracenotes5379]

Superbly informative and useful episode! Thanks to all three of you.

[@MasterBuildersPath]

A perspective that would be instructional in this conversation is the book, The Call to Follow, Hearing Jesus in a Culture Obsessed with Leadership by Richard Langer and Joanne Jung.

[@geographicaloddity2]

"Pivot" - I can't hear the word without thinking about Ross and the couch.

[@jeffinthesnow]

I can tell I’m gonna like it already

[@annaboshier6680]

Could tell Michael R was not feeling flash on one of the episodes. Now we know! Sorry to hear… that must be painful! Praying for you MR

[@bethelshiloh]

Been saved since 1971. I’ve never been in a congregation where I saw biblical government. Maybe 1 or 2 that attempted. I finally left the building in 2010. I’ve attended a home-group since 2015. Trust me, I long for more community. I can’t really find it anywhere with sound doctrine.

[@Cman1955]

I’m pretty sure that in the case of IHOP that the Kansas City Fellowship Church came first then followed by the Metro City Vineyard when they came under the authority of John Wimber who later released them from the Vineyard Movement. KCF began as a community of 5 independent churches that came together under the leadership of Mike Bickel and the vision for IHOP came later. I got saved in a Foursquare Church (Pentecostal) which was born out of the Azusa Revival. Was started by Aimee Simple McPherson and has grown into a denomination as big as AofG I think. The governing structure is that they have a President with a board under him, then district supervisors who are overseeing numerous churches in their area. Each church is ran by a Pastor with elders under them. Whenever there was a Pastoral change the elders would step down in order for the Pastor to choose the elders that they feel would work best with them. Been a Christian for 44 years and have spent years in Foursquare, Vineyard and Calvary Chapel churches and they all are ran this way. I would have to agree with the elders having more authority but I’ve also seen elders that have tied the hands of the Pastors with what and how to preach.

[@jimjenkins7146]

My church operates in what we feel is the NT model. We have 11 churches in our network, soon to be 13 with new plants in 2025 and 2026. We are lead by a recognized apostle. Each church is led by Elders that are set into leadership after much prayer. We believe in the 5 fold ministry which includes pastor, though we believe a better translation of the word is shepherd. In our network there are a number of recognized prophets, 2 shepherds and 1 teacher. We are believing God to bring in more of those with the a five fold calling on their lives as we continue to grow. Although we are led by an apostle everything is done with prayer and discussion so this is not dictatorship. Any big decision is made by the team as a whole not one person.

[@IAM2388]

Thanks for this video. Thanks for talking about IHOP. I would have liked to have more details about church governance within so called apostolic network, you guys talk a lot about the NAR five fold ministry quoting Bethel but I think we need to hear more about Bill Hammond, and other so called Bishop and prophets. Also wish I could learn more about the way vineyard and foursquare denomination work. Thanks

[@robynmartin9138]

I come from The Uniting church in Australia. The Uniting church is the merging of Methodist, Presbyterian and congregational. It appears to be a mix of all three. It has a synod, elders and the congregation is able to input decisions, both locally and the Synods.

[@salvadaXgracia]

Thank you! Do you guys have any videos explaining step by step what your church gatherings look like on an average Sunday morning? Like Bible based Spirit filled church for dummies? 😂🤩 (My husband is a pastor and I am a worship worship leader so we mostly are the ones who decide the order of service but we come from cessassionist denominations.) Like do you pray for healing and deliverance every Sunday? Do you open a time for experienced prophets to prophecy and/or speak in tongues and is there an evaluation of prophecy? Is there music in the background while you pray for people or is that "manipulation"? How does a very small church get started if no one comes to the front? Do we start teaching on this stuff for a while first so people know it's biblical? Thanks in advance for any advice and always for your show and ministry. God bless!

[@pamelathompson3504]

I just shared a link with you from my church. They go over the liturgy of our service. How it's set up. Towards the end of the video You will find book recommendations by my pastors on how a worship service should be. I really do hope this helps.

[@RachelRamey]

The Southern Baptists' current Baptist Faith & Message literally states that the church is democratic. (And most, 'though not all, have only a single "senior pastor.") All of the charismatic churches I've ever been part of have a very similar ecclesiology: congregational, single pastor, no outside hierarchy. In my own mind, congregationalism is a distinct set of categorization from whether it's elder-led or congregation-led. "Congregationalist," to me, is not a question of HOW the local congregation is run, but THAT the local congregation is its own authority, rather than having a presbytery or a bishop, or something like that. (I prefer elder-led, myself. I believe a "pure democracy" approach is like putting toddlers in charge. It doesn't make any sense to let all of the congregation, including all the spiritual babies, making the decisions. It makes sense to let those who are established as the mature & wise to be the primary decision-makers -- with congregational assent and input.)

[@sstevens1212]

Thanks for this informative episode. I have been a part of independent charismatic churches, Assemblies of God (AG), Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC), Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC), and Anglican Churches (ACNA) and now a simple house church - whatever you call it :-) One point of clarity of global Anglicanism is that (in my understanding) the Archbishops over nations together function as a prebytery - the Archbishop of Cnaterbury does not have authority over the Archbishops. There is no equivalent of a Pope in Anglicanism. So Anglicanism is episcopal locally, regionally , and nationally - and presbyterian globally. I am convinced that a purality of elders in the local church has deep roots in the New Testament and does not rely on how early Christians chose to implement church government (in a more hierarchical manner). Clearly the authority of Jesus is expressed in different ways among His followers who love Him and bear the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. The challenge is for us to demonstrate to the unbelieving world around us in our local communities that we love one another as Jesus loved us. Based on Jesus prayer preserved for us in John 17 and Paul's instruction for leadership in Ephesians 4, the body of Christ in each of our local communities will be led by the Holy Spirit to express the unity of the faith and knowledge of the son of God - when the love of Christ has matured in the hearts of His people to the point where we yearn for that which Jesus prayed. I appreciate the way you for clarified the difference between the Ephesians 4 gifts and the role of local church elders. The role of the Ephesians 4 equipping ministries is to call and equip the church GLOBALLY to express these realities. The role of elders is to lead the church LOCALLY to express these realities in practical and observable ways that the unbeiliving world can see. The church is called to REFLECT the glory of Jesus Christ through our love for God and one another, not ECLIPSE the glory of Christ through our lack of visible expressions of love for one another. It is the reality of Christ being formed in each of our lives as His apprentices what will bring about the maturity and unity that God desires for His people. I am confident Jesus is building His church, and He will bring about His vision for His church - and deal with the things that prevent that from happening. Thanks for all you are doing, brothers. Jesus is Lord. Let us love one another.

[@flowers1-2-1]

👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 well said💯🇬🇧

[@desireewilliams9230]

Josh... Loving the hoodie... Go Blue! 💙 💛 (I'm from Michigan)

[@RachelRamey]

Even under Moses, there were elders.

[@maryannwrayTruthbeTold]

This is soooo good! Question… if a man is led to start a Church i.e., feels called by the Lord to do it how would he go about doing it and appointing elders under the new testament model that you described in 1 Timothy 5, Acts 14, and Titus 1?

[@mamamia5130]

I just have to mention that from the start of this episode (now weeks ago) until this moment (returning to the episode to finish), I have thought many times about smoked brisket chili. I care deeply about said chili cook off and my next chili WILL have smoked brisket; no doubt. 👍🏻😃

[@TheRemnantRadio]

Ha ha! Very good 😀😀

[@richardredmond1463]

This is a very good question. However, the non-denominational streams of churches have kind of shot themselves in the foot in this one by rejecting denominationalism and the hierachies that go with that model AND simultaneously accepting the cessationist position that are no apostles around any more. Where does that leave local church governance? Solely with the local church pastor and his leadership team if he has one. If a problem then arises in the pastor or the extended leadership team that he himself probably appointed, the situation is screwed.

[@ericstansberry7834]

Rick Renner discusses this in his book on Apostles and Prophets.

[@terrikoop416]

Hey, so, my husband was an AOG credentialed pastor (he let it lapsed when some things that were going on were not okay with him. He since kind of regrets that because there’s so many tiny churches in AOG that are trying to fight the seeming NAR infiltration that seems to be happening and he kind of feels like he left them to fend on their own. Off topic, but important none the less.) The churches are absolutely autonomous. I do know that, at least in our state, they don’t really revoke your credentials unless there’s an unrepentant sin issue. The only situations in which a district can take over a church is if the board votes for that (this happened in my parents church after their pastor left and there were some weird things going on) or if a church goes under a certain number of people (this just happened to my husband’s, friends church). That doesn’t always happen, but it seems that recently the districts have been cracking down on churches that have, I think, 10 or less people. It really depends on the state though. As far as church governance or bylaws, that varies vastly from church to church. I feel confident in saying this. My husband and I have several friends that are AG pastors or were and we recently talked about this at length.

[@God_is_in_the_details]

If I did have to discuss Church governance 🥱 I would want to discuss with the RR Boys. JK; Church governance is, of course, extremely important.

[@TimelessWisdomDrAnita]

I have always wondered about Matt 18 - the church didn't exist yet at the time Christ was talking through how to handle conflicts. I assume what is translated as "church" means actually "synagogues" or the equivalent of the local Jewish center of worship? Maybe it's a tangential issue, but it's another indication of how authoritative Christ was even before he resurrected.

[@fredkropp2764]

Just one thing I haven’t heard who appointed elders in the church in the New Testament ? If I read it correctly it was apostles or those who were sent by them to do so.

[@joeengers]

Do you have any reference for where I can hear (or read) Dr. Craig Keener discuss how the teaching of "apostolos" not being tied to a Roman boat? I've heard that teaching a good bit, so I'm keen to understand how illegitimate it truly is. Thank you!

[@RoyceVanBlaricome]

Almost thru the video but I've got to make a feedstore run before it closes so pausing and asking a question now because I'll likely forget if I don't. I hear all three talk about the "Moses Model" as if it's based solely on OT Scriptures but what about Rev. 2-3? I haven't actually studied this out but I've heard said that the "angel of the church" is referring to the "Senior Pastor". What do Josh, Miller, and Roundtree say about that and who they are?

[@beatitudespeople]

NAR seems like it’s a worldview (more than just an ecclesiology).

[@markridlen4380]

Like you touched on, I think the big pain point in church governance is bad actors. Gatekeeping needs to be made based on moral character. It's the same reason we have failings in every political system. I kind of lean toward the elder led model, but then you need to come up with some kind of tie-breaker system if there is an even number of them.

[@OliverJPrior]

Do you guys have a book you'd suggest on biblical church governance?

[@BobbyU808]

maranatha!

[@mollyr9149]

What do you think about the book Under Cover by John Bevere?

[@benjaminfirth424]

Thanks for this video! In what ways is “elder-run” different to elder-led congregationalism? Would you agree that discipling is the job of church members not just elders?

[@wystock2692]

Good stuff guys

[@fabianapimentel6114]

Moses model? Did we forget that Jesus is the new and better Moses? There is a central lider on the church and hierarchy was always used for the early church. Talk about how things were in the early church. How the church fathers talk about model of lidership, i read Clemente writes saying that where was the bishop there was the church! What do you say about that?!

[@derchris07]

Hi, can you guys comment more in depths about Miller comment of John Paul II talking in tongues?

[@conceptualclarity]

I cannot say whether or not he was saved but I know he was not solid. He was a Mary- oriented guy. She is who he cried out to when the young Turk shot him.

[@lopezjjeff]

One talk of the round table should be nepotism in the church . Where the pastor / leader get paid and pays his family first and rest of the staff gets crumbs . Especially Assembly of God .

[@righteousroad8680]

Hey at what minute mark does Rowntree share about his exit from pastoralshipbat his church?

[@rebeccanewell3449]

Great episode!

[@maryt.2067]

I believe in the gifts, for the most part i saw a lot of things that sure didn't look biblical to me when I was in charismatic churches. It took me around 20+ years to pray in tongues again after i left them and finally began going to other churches (i've moved a lot so its been several churches) I believe in the calvinist doctrine except that I'm continuationist and a little wobbly on a few things. I have to move soon probably--I love my Presbyterian church so much! I miss charismatic worship--for the most part. I have come to love hymns however. My big thing is-- are there un-crazy charismatic churches? Have things changed in the past 20 years?

[@flowers1-2-1]

I'm in the same boat as you (even though I'm across the Pond🤔🙄😬🇬🇧)💯 I don't think you should be looking for an "un-crazy charismatic" church but rather making sure that you are truly on "the narrow road" because how we "do church" is not Biblical in the most part.🥰

[@johnwarren3789]

Elder/Pastor are synonymous. And the biblical model of leadership has always been a plurality of elders/pastors. Co-equal in leading. This idea of a head pastor over elders is unbiblical. Elders/pastors are always addressed in the plural. It's Gods design for better accountability. It amazes me how little non reformed churches do this model. Anyone who wants some great biblical informative writings on this. Look for Alexander Strauchs Biblical Eldership book. Recently redone from BER. Biblical eldership resources.

[@kenesepp]

Baptist Churches have changed over the last decade to a plurality of elders, recognizing the plurality. This has been a shift that has (is) taking place.

[@shawngillogly6873]

Traditional SBC structure is still a thing. Like Methodists, a lot of it comes from the old "circuit rider" pastors. The plurality of elders congregationalism has come in with the Reformed Baptist movement.

[@sneaksyranger]

The primary responsibility of a pastor is to safeguard the souls of the flock. The executive style model of the pastor who hands down the vision/words is an abdication/dereliction of that responsibility. Charismatics lean that way more than some, but the non-charismatic does the same. Just look at Mark Driscoll, Perry Noble, or James MacDonald.

[@JackFoerster-Hunzicker]

Timely episode

[@mollyr9149]

Are we supposed to do Matthew 18 with an abusive spiritual leader?

[@TheRemnantRadio]

You may want to watch last night's episode about IHOP. There are some good points for that exact situation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6HGkoOdpqiUfdE

[@davidward5225]

New Testament church governance is a plurality of elders, period. Nowhere in the New Testament is the idea of “the” pastor, “the” bishop, or “the” priest found. I’ve never seen the so-called “first among equals” work, as the so-called “first” always ends up “more equal” than the rest.

[@maryannwrayTruthbeTold]

Amen. In fact, Paul referred to himself as the least of All Saints. Quite a humble perspective.

[@laurilane5946]

Jeff might win the chilli cook off!

[@elelyon5696]

Is "low church" a condescending term? Are those whose church governance is more structured complex considered "high church?". Why is "low church" even in a believer's vocabulary? Are we not one church regardless of how it's governed or structured? Is the term "low church" not problematic?

[@duncescotus2342]

There needs to be inter-congregational accountability. That's the point of overseers (bishops), whose authority has to be spread around a larger geographical area, as the early church tended to affirm (even if scripture is unclear). Congregationalism is a Puritan hangover.

[@lrlasvegas6427]

17:00 Oh! "NAR-ly," not "gnarly"... haha😂

[@justink4446]

My Grandparents were Lutherans in the 60s and got filled with the Holy Ghost.

[@maryt.2067]

presbyterian is more to do with accountability layers. you have your local church pastor is an elder and we have several others, then several deacons. the church belongs to a group of churches in our area, then a general assembly. All churches have a say about rule changes and all churches own their buildings. I mean you definitely have a say. also the churches own their own buildings in pca presbeterian (conservative believers) so if there is ever a church split the churches can pull out and not lose their stuff. Also the church members vote for elders and deeacons.

[@RevDavidReyes]

As an AG pastor, let me comment on the 16Fundamentals(28:00), if there is any pastor in the AG that doesn’t believe in the 16Fundamentals they’re living in a constant lie. Every year we need to sign a statement that says we believe in the 16Fundamentals.

[@davidbull-wo8vb]

Is the IPE doctrine and the pretrib rapture a part of these 16 Fundamentals?

[@RevDavidReyes]

@@davidbull-wo8vb If by IPE you mean "The Initial Physical Evidence Of The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit" which is tongues then yes- it is the 8thFundamental. The PreTrib Rapture is not. We have the 13th Fundamental which is "The Blessed Hope"- dead believers being resurected. But the exact PreTrib is not.

[@RevDavidReyes]

@@davidbull-wo8vb The 14th Fundamental is "The Millennial Reign Of Christ" but the language used is not necessarily PreTrib. Although most do hold to the PreTrib with that vocab.

[@RevDavidReyes]

@@paulral 🙏🏼

[@StateofTarheel]

The Church of God Ecclesiology is closer to an Episcopal type of governance than Presbyterian or congregational type. The Church of God is very hierarchical.

[@RellGiles]

Josh, when you say the Church of God, do you mean the Church of God in Christ (COGIC)?

[@lW9497]

I've been attending a charismatic church with elders. The problem with this system is found in the details. While they have a general, relational method of raising up leaders, the pathway is not clear--no one is called a deacon for instance. Moreover, certain elders have more say than others, promoting their particular agendas over others. There still is the problem of equality amongst the elders that is not being dealt with. Those with a stronger voice overpower those without. How can a plurality of elders maintain true equality? My church, which holds to the 5-fold ministry has only one person teaching on a regular basis. It would seem that all 5 ministries should teach (actually we have 8 elders). If all elders are to teach (1 Timothy 3:2; Titus 1:9), why is one elder always chosen to speak to the congregation?

[@Benjamin-rp4hq]

I'd see the role of Moses over Israel best seen as a type of Christ, not a model for ministry

[@johnwarren3789]

You are most certainly correct there.

[@H.Nenningger]

Wait. John Paul II was speaking in tongues ?

[@ericaloveskorea]

You should interview Rhema Trayner. I didn’t watch all of the video, but I think some of your view of how charismatics are believing God created the 5-fold to lead the church is missing LOTS of recent context and development that I think is important and SUPER biblical. I think many don’t like the idea of it because of abuses that people have taken by titling themselves apostles. I don’t like it either, but I had to accept that my reason to dismiss it wasn’t biblical. The word apostle means more than missionary if you study and understand the Greek and the role of apostles in biblical times. I’ve had to shift my belief so much more around this but it’s actually in the Bible. The idea of pastors leading churches isn’t in the Bible. Even elders leading is but who were they appointed by apostles? I saw your video with a secessionist where you talked about how the context of the scriptures from 1 Cor showed that there’s no reason to believe that the gifts ended which is why you’re continuationist. In the same way, there’s no reason to say that apostles stopped functioning in the church in the way they did based on scripture. Anyways, I’m new to learning all this but it’s obviously the most biblical model that I’ve come across even after being a part of a house church led by elders for 6 years. I think you should have a dialogue with Rhema Trayner because she knows her stuff and I’d love to see what that conversation is like because she’s so rooted in Scripture and is really humble.

[@ericstansberry7834]

That is not the model of the Church of God (Cleveland, Tn) The church property is owned by the denomination and can be locked if a pastor and congregation deviates from their doctrine. Their method of credentials are handled at state level, and help at headquarters.

[@mahkaimaldonado4471]

this topic has been bubbling up in me for the last month or two giving my church structure. its so odd and unbiblical as i’ve been studying in this past month or two. the pastor gave an example of how he is like moses and from my understanding moses was a shadow of Jesus to come as deuteronomy claims. plurality of elders is the biblical model

[@gregmccarty331]

Oh yeah guys there is a Moses type figure over the church except He's greater than Moses His Name is JESUS King of Kings and Lord of Lords AMEN

[@paulc7190]

reading way too much into all this 5 fold thing

[@jerrycole4098]

CURIOUS.. HAVE YOU GUYS EVER GIVEN FALSE PROPHECIES OR FALSE WORDS . Need to know

[@danielargo7221]

Why don't you just pray and ask God if they have?

[@jerrycole4098]

@@danielargo7221 What's wrong with asking them

[@danielargo7221]

@@jerrycole4098 I didn't say there was anything wrong with asking them. I was making a point.

[@s.edwards6485]

Very interesting, though I find your banter about your weekend plans a waste of time. I’d suggest editing it out of before uploading. I hope you’ll receive this criticism in the spirit in which it is given - to make a good show better. I hope you won’t react like Charismatic “apostles” react to criticism. 😂

[@lindarice4695]

Acts 15 is the rubric. Respect the Body. Charismatic churches are top down. Not a lot of respect for the Body.

[@Tendervittle]

Reggae is the way - stay away from watered down religion