Charitable Discussion Between Tristan Gabriel (Agnostic Former Preterist) and Ward Fenley (believer)

[@hiruzensarutobi9771]

Great convo

[@pandovski]

Few years ago I watched a Standford lecture by Robert Sapolsky about Behavioral Evolution (I was big into that as an atheist, I have MA in Sociology) and for some reason it really stuck with me in memory. Fast forward me as a Christian strugling with sin and the absolute futile attempts to be in every concivable way sinless in act or thought, i simply couldn't live as a hypocrite and embrace cognitive disonance. I wanted God's grace, all of it, the mercy that has no end for the soul that otherwise can have no peace with God. My greatest argument with Him was the scriptures where i read this switch from free gift and unconditional forgiveness, back into law and tit-for-tat strategy like that lecture from Sapolsky taught. You do good, you get good things, and if you do bad you get bad things. Lordship salvation, need I say more? How is this grace, how can i live and love and enjoy God as this filthy hopeless degenerate. He gives with one hand and takes with the other, I was really angry. Is it a gift or is it a reward (sallary)? Ultimately I said to him I cannot worship this God of conditional love that's same as evolution, pragmatical, cruel, cold. The only God I will worship and love openly with joy is the God of unconditional love. The God that gave me life, faith, mercy, despite who I am. That God will I worship, because there's no hope for me otherwise. Cast me in eternal damnation today if you think I will meet these great merits like Jesus. I cannot. Unconditional salvation because of unconditional love, that's the only way to eternal life, and I am absolute predestenarian, everything has been absolutely predetermined, he made me flawed clay, broken, and showed me how much I need him. Otherwise, who can stand? be honest with yourself brothers. Examiine yourself. You know we are not good. Fast forward few months ago I stumble upon a debate between Robet Sapolsky and Daniel Dennett about predeterminism. It was both nostalgia and actual revisit on these issues. Its the most theological debate between atheists that I recommend everyone wrestling with this thoughts take time and watch. There's followup streams from Harris etc. on the debate. If felt like looking back into my past life, from a hill down at the valley I crossed, carried on his shoulders. Thank you both for this conversation. I lot of memories came back, hence the ramblings. God bless you both.

[@flamingswordapologetics]

These guys, what I call "new IO" all go agnostic or atheist, but like Ward said, they see scripture as the Word of God-in fact, they see how amazingly it all comes together, which is why they become Full Preterist. After, they suddenly see it as myth and nonsense. I actually give some credit to the original IO, most of them still believe its the Word of God. Mythvision is all over the place with mostly nonsense, scholars on there make Bart Ehrman look conservative, some don't even believe Jesus existed lol.

[@JohnO318]

Don Preston has indeed addressed IO on numerous occasions in recordings for the world to see. This man is either ignorant or ......

[@timmartin4216]

Still waiting for an IO response... since 2009! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jWe9Z41sYpWdZ9ksi=dChsJ3J45b1-svns

[@jhand5920]

Don't we have to wonder how an avowed agnostic who claims Jesus failed, prophecy failed can use the scriptures with the word of God to prove or disprove anything? That doesn't even make good nonsense as some say so can someone explain how that is suppose to afford credibility to whatever stand he takes?

[@hiruzensarutobi9771]

Does don k believe in osas?

[@ncmilive]

@@hiruzensarutobi9771 no. He is Church of Christ.