How to Talk to Progressive Christians (Part 1) With Greg Koukl

[@kimberlyeligio4622]

This is so eye opening to my husband and me. We raised our 2 daughters in active Biblical Christianity. One is married and one is finishing Christian college yet the college daughter who during 2020 ended up getting an apartment because of Covid restrictions about college ended up lonely and hooked to a small group of progressive Christians and in the same college. Now both of our children are on board with BLM and LGBQ marriage and more as of summer of 2020. My husband and I didn’t even know how to talk with them because they shut us down and these are wonderful insights as to how to start those conversations now. God bless you for sharing this.We are heading to get the book.

[@Ephesians5-14]

Wow that's really tough. Don't underestimate your prayers. My mom's prayers brought me out of a decade of new age. Don't give up! Keep praying! Don't let their erroneous beliefs divide your relationship, that's what Satan wants...

[@lindsaybarlow7946]

My parents likely felt the same as you feel right now, but God has brought me out! I will try to pray for you and others in your situation as you come to mind 💛

[@2GunRock]

@@lindsaybarlow7946 I've noticed that the easiest people for the devil to deceive are young people who were born in the church. They're like Adam and Eve. Despite God blessing them with the knowledge of the Holy Spirit and His own direct knowledge, they are just naive enough for the devil to take advantage by telling them about all the good things that tyrant they call God is withholding from them. Frankly it's a lot harder to deceive people who weren't born in the church. You can't lie to them about what they are missing. Been there, done that.

[@beckyharris347]

You are not alone, by a long shot! I'm praying for my child, yours, and countless others who have been deceived.

[@robosborne5527]

@@lindsaybarlow7946 would you mind praying for me and my children too? Thank you.

[@ericamulondo9669]

My perspective changed when I encountered Greg's approach on gardening. Life changing.. Thank you, Alisa for your great interviews!.. Bless you both❤

[@lauriehansel2601]

Seriously change my life about evangelism...I’m a gardener. Thank you! I look forward to spiritual conversations to come!

[@samdung5630]

I get that! I'm a gardener to. I'm more about helping Christians along. As I'm typing this, I'm getting convicted about an opportunity God gave me to evangelize that I didn't take. I think I'm getting some consequences too: (

[@septemberstorrie]

I’m only 6 and a half minutes in, but what he said about having more of a heart for discipleship and Christians really resonated with me. I have been disheartened by past experiences (as someone who grew up in the church) where it seems many churches focus so much on the evangelism aspect (definitely important), but don’t seem to care as much about discipleship. I believe I’m also called to be Christ to the world, but discipleship is big on my heart. I see so many falling away, and I think at least some of it is based on a lack of knowledge. Him saying that relieves some guilt I’ve had about those topics.

[@wk1810]

Absolutely agree! We were in a church which was (and still is) very heavy on evangelism but nil on discipleship. I believe this is a direct result of believing the "free will gospel", which focuses on winning over man's free will and power to reject Christ. When a church believes it must do anything it can to influence a non-believer's reluctance to accept Christ, then what you get are church programs and church teaching/sermons aimed at the goats, while the sheep are neglected or used (abused) as workers to push forward the church's vision. Yes, we are to evangelize, but with such an unbalanced view as what I've described, do you think the church is even equipped to do that - or will even desire to? If your parents preferred the neighborhood children over you - their child - and gave these children all of their attention, affection, concern, care; entertained them in your family home, provided meals only for them while giving you scraps/leftovers, and asked you to give your birthday and Christmas money toward these children's general needs not met w/in the family home - how much love and respect do you think you'd have for your parents or care about these children? Now imagine if your parents had a manual (the bible) to defend why they're neglecting you, and you knew and agreed with the creeds of that manual - in fact, you live by that manual as well. You'd start to feel guilty for going against your parents, the manual, and your own belief in this manual. And you would begin to doubt yourself, deny what you know is an unbalanced view of certain sections of the manual, feel guilty for questioning your parents, and eventually just give in and do whatever they tell you without questioning it anymore. That's pretty much where the church is today. The goats are being fed, while the sheep are over-worked and starved.

[@sidepot]

You believe lies. How wonderful.

[@abundantharmony]

You are not called to "be Christ".

[@erinashley1910]

Yes! Some plant, some water, but GOD makes it grow!

[@mimishella4915]

I have been feeling the weight of evangelism for a while now, and it churned inside of me. Today you talked about how some plant (and turn the soil!), some water....It set me free. I felt such a weight leave me. This was an answer to an actual prayer. God has given me rest knowing that I have harvested but in my older years, I am mostly praying, teaching, proclaiming and edifying. I no longer feel that I have fallen so short. I hope He does allow me to do that again, but in my older years it is fine with me if I tend the fields for others to harvest. Thank you.

[@beeblebrox82]

I personally feel that mature and older women mentoring younger women is vital and often missing in the church

[@SusanLMcGee]

Thanks Alisa and Greg for giving us such an encouraging word. this is how Jesus did his ministry. Its Jewish in nature to ask provocative questions. Wow. so encouraging. I teach on a college campus and this is inspiring. God bless y'all.

[@EdKidgell]

Gardening. Nailed it. [1Co 3:6 KJV] 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

[@robynbaker5516]

This was a fascinating interview Alisa …just bought Greg’s book “Tactics”anniversary edition what a blessing your channel is ..keep the great content coming 🙏❤️

[@wk1810]

This is brilliant! I do this all the time when I disciple Christian women. I ask questions, then use their answers to guide my next question to purposely guide them to think about their answers. It's question, revealed answer, question, revealed answer - until the lightbulb moment for the disciple, which leads to them asking me questions. Beautiful! And when it works, and the person doesn't shut it down, it really can set that person free.

[@sommer8247]

Just ordered your book and his book! So thankful to you both for alllllll the help I know I'm about to get in speaking with my more 'progressive christian' friends. Blessings, Sommer

[@marcusanthony488]

Yes. Get to know people. Meet them as fellow human beings, not as some project.

[@yvonneojoh5574]

Yesssss!!! Completely agree! 🙌🏽

[@wk1810]

Yes. Loving and respecting people will gaurd you against making them your projects.

[@longstreet2740]

True.... However, GOD, Not your friendship, Must be the Endgame. Salvation isn't dependent on relationships.. The person who witnessed to me gave me a very sober Heaven / Hell Ultimatum BUT never pushed the externals of prayer, Baptism etc. I never push anyone, but pray for opportunities, BUT also keep my Doctrine as pure as possible, for there is much apostasy

[@iw9338]

Great reminder 😀🙏

[@veronicaspencelocke2003]

@@longstreet2740 Great point, and keeping the Bible in your mind, praying for the Holy Spirit to help you know what to say, plus as they said, making sure that you know what the 'terms' mean to the other person, are all good things to do. 🙏

[@drlaurav]

I got and read through the Tactics book two or three times!

[@redemptionisnear8553]

I’m a gardener too! Thank you for your encouragement to sow the seeds while discerning the ripe fruit

[@jenniebugs1]

I just ‘gossip the gospel’. In other words, I have learned not to preach at people, but relate and talk normally with them.I certainly identify with being a gardener and have just ordered Tactics.

[@tayh.6235]

Gossip the gospel. I love that way of putting it! I've definitely found a more casual approach is way more likely to get people actually listening.

[@timothymccoy811]

Very interesting, the Columbo tactic. I am in the middle of reading Trey Gowdy's new book: "Does't Hurt to Ask". Same tactict, but different venue examples.

[@MsFireproof777]

Thanks for the recommend! I will check that book out too!!

[@arielmarbury467]

Thank you so much for this. I just ordered Tactics. I've been needing this! I love all of you out there that committed too!

[@lizab8400]

Wow, I always felt like I was a gardener. One of my best friends is a harvester. But, I have felt guilty that I have not done more harvest. However, you just set me free putting together the links of scripture where this was how we are designed as the body. Bless you both.

[@KathrynLee5456]

God will always be Sovereign and guide us in the timing of how we share the truth of God's word with people. We need to listen to people more than we talk as we garden.

[@lou-annatkinson4211]

Love it Alisa, so grateful Pastor Mike Winger led me to you and you introduced me to Greg. Praise the Lord, I learned so much and received clarity for the confusion I have been feeling about evangelising which I'm not good at, but I do think I'm a gardener. A priest said to me one day that if I'm one link in a person's chain then I have succeeded in helping them to come to Christ. I think, like they say it takes a village to raise a child, it also takes a village to raise a Christian. 😄🙏✝️💟

[@dwightlavine5893]

I love the asking of questions! I’m going back to Muslim at work to ask him to prove why Jesus isn’t The Son of God (which he said earlier). Thanks also that both of you are very respectful. It’s easy to get angry at the false messages out there. It was freeing for me to realize that it’s God who brings the increase!

[@frameshifted1999]

Thank you. I just got the book and on chapter 4 so far . I'm enjoying it and I'm not a big reader. This may be only the 4th book I've read in many many years . Praying this helps me in my conversations with friends and family.

[@gregcook9915]

This was really helpful. Lately it seems that half the times I watch your videos I have to buy another book or start reading another blog. Please keep it up--i just discovered your channel a few months ago and I've already gotten encouragement and great new information.

[@citytrees1752]

As someone still on a journey towards Christianity, Greg's approach is exactly what appeals to me. I don't want Christians throwing their harvest/fruit/beliefs at me in the expectation that I suddenly BELIEVE. I want to take the time to understand the Bible from a rational perspective. I've met a lot of adults over 45 who want the same thing. We've all been educated in the secular system and need a systematic, learned approach to the Bible.

[@LotsOfHats]

this was soo good! My husband introduced me to Tactics a few years back, and I was so thrilled to see this interview. Keep up the good work, Alisa!

[@d.c.sodyssey4783]

... Greg K, awesome material , was there from the early days of STR when Greg was putting out his Tactics materials in lectures, cassettes, and print-outs. I think I still gottem. Memorable!..

[@RanlamSeddit]

To compare to basketball, the sowers are making the assist/smooth pass to the reapers, who get to slam the ball down, but the easy bucket is only made possible by the sower. When a championship is won, the whole team celebrates.

[@Saratogan]

"...the Lord’s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing, in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth, and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will."

[@moomin8251]

Trying to push people into Salvation is a bad idea, let the Holy Spirit do His work. I talked to my son inlaw for years, he got close and backed off so many times, One day I was frustrated and I asked the Lord why he was taking so long to make the decision, these words came into my mind "premature babies are always weak". He got there in the end and took off like a rocket! That was about 8 years ago and he's still going strong.

[@leeannmartin7669]

Excellent faith you have demonstrated! Thank you so much! I remember when I was about 38 , a woman from Florida who prayed for my Salvation and am a Born again believer just recently!!!! Thank you Holy Spirit for your love. God Bless you all !

[@Oktoday-1]

I agree with you. Seek the holy spirit. And then all will make sense. Not some conceptualised set of thoughts as a basis for action. So far he hasnt mentioned one thing from the testament. Nothing, and Im 15 minutes into this.

[@mrbillcollector]

Sorry are you telling me god literally told you "premature babies are weak"

[@1PrincessTae]

Getting Tactics tomorrow and another gospel! Excited to see part 2!

[@tomhitchcock8195]

I say, l will listen to you, then I’ll say what I believe.

[@rubywedderburn6528]

This is absolutely a blessing to me and I'm grateful. Glory to God 🙏

[@clarakesi]

Suuuuper off topic, but I LOVE UR HAIR!!! It's beautiful, keep slaying queen 💕💕💕

[@greganderson583]

I hold to the tenets of 'The Apostle's Creed' as non-negotiable parameters up front and on the table. The rest of the stuff? I pick and choose as I see fit. By the way Alisa, your greying hair is gorgeous!

[@elizabethbittala2779]

This was so great! I am so excited to get this book! Thank you Alisa for mentioning the Atonement... I want to research the different views on this more as this is a huge one esp for my POC Christian friends.

[@debbievernon6901]

This is awesome. i have met people that speak to us about healing and if not see a healing treat you as you are not believer. i am a believer i desire more of our lord. thank you for the messages u have been able to receive in u tube. i look daily to your messages

[@amanda-caton]

I feel like I could chew on this for a long time ! So good

[@lisaperine3870]

Sounds very much like the “life coaching” theory. Ask the questions to draw information out. Love this

[@jeffmuller1489]

Been looking for a fellowship that isn't infected with progressive music and shallow teaching. Feeling isolated here in Thornton, Colorado. Is anybody out there?

[@tronsgard]

Same... There is sweet comfort being alone with the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. I believe It is for a season.

[@glennramalho1017]

Thanks for the hint. I just purchased it now online.

[@FieldsofGrace101]

I just got my copy of Tactics!!! Can't wait to read it 😁😁❤️

[@scottharrison812]

Another point: a perspective from “the other side” (but frankly there is IMO one side - we are all just human beings, fragile, ignorant, lost); as an atheist if I am approached by an evangelical Christian, a Mormon, a Jehovah’s Witness … I will always ask this person what THEY believe and why they believe it to be so … not as some trick but to avoid being browbeaten or suckered into someone else’s “truth”; and it’s surprising how ignorant so many Christians are btw of their own faith - it’s creeds, doctrines, the formation of the text, the different forms of Christianity through the centuries and across the world & the broader history of Christianity (I have Tom Holland’s book and while his perspective is compelling remember this is still a contested space BTW - Grayling is a philosopher not a historian if I remember correctly) - and sadly many Christians are clueless about the Greek or Hebrew texts and where the Septuagint differs from the Hebrew (Tanakh). But the point is I too am ignorant… and is this some shitty battle of who seems the cleverest? Alyosha couldn’t argue with his brother Ivan’s Misotheism in Brothers Karamazov- but it is clear Dostoevsky saw the deeper truth lay in Alyosha’s faith, no? He’s not my favourite scholar by far but ol Bart Ehrman at least exposes this considerable ignorance of the New Testament texts - J Tabor too - evident in conservative, fundamentalist, inerrantist, so-called Bible believing Christians. If they are evangelising or proselytising (or just gardening?) then the asking of questions seems to me not merely some tactic but a two way street where both parties need to be open, vulnerable and authentic. Debates seem silly really when authentic sharing of our human experience of life is more meaningful. Any idiot can argue facts and so what? I’m cleverer than you? I caught you out?! Its puerile to do this.

[@brucesaunders6073]

Thank you for excellent teaching in challenging those in misdirected beliefs. I was able to utilize the use of questions effectively to reveal contradictions to a friend who has believed that the Rich Man and Lazarus is somehow a story of Heaven and Hell.

[@aliciasyme8953]

Why would you believe that the Rich Man and Lazarus isn’t really a story of heaven and hell?

[@lesliejager7900]

There’s just one thing that bothers me… Why can’t I find the sinner’s prayer in the Bible and why did the 10 examples of conversions in the Acts of the Apostles include immediate baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

[@danzilmonk4185]

THIS IS SOOOOOO IMPORTANT. THERE ARE SOOOO MANY UNINFORMED BELIEVERS THAT ARE CAUSING SO MUCH TROUBLE FOR THE CHRISTIAN FAITH.

[@woofbark4475]

I'm not certain why some would disagree with the gardening idea when we see statements like this in 1 Corinthians 3:6. "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow." Maybe it's because we immediately think of the Samaritan Woman discourse where Jesus stated that the fields are 'White/Ripe for harvest' (John 4:35). Many of us think therefore that Jesus is saying that the sowing is done the harvest is ready like Jesus stated in Matthew 9:37. However, even Jesus mentions that the sowing here was done previously by 'others.' He uses the plural. It could be argued that the sowing, (which is always done through or by God) here was performed more immediately by the woman sharing with the townspeople and the reaping by Jesus himself. And yet, it seems more likely, (due to the Samaritan women's knowledge of Messiah), that Jesus was referring to the work done through the preceding OT prophets. Thus, Jesus statement about the labourers being few and the harvest ready in Matt 9:37 maybe because few were currently in ministry and many of the Jews were already prepared by prophets and John the Baptist; the seed thus already planted. Either way Paul makes it clear that planting, watering and God overall increasing this gardening, is practically necessary and completely Biblical. IMHO. But I could be completely missing something in my interpretations here and so any thoughts are appreciated. God's richest blessing to you all.

[@hwd7]

Watched it a second time around, fantastic teaching.👍

[@edwardfrazier4320]

Great show guys one planets one will water but it is God that gives the increase ❤😊

[@griseldacervantes567]

I have the book my husband and I took a class that when over the book but it was fast passed and a little complicated . I need to read it again. Since the my husband is into this weird doctrine not sure what it is. He even stopped reading the work and attending church. He is saying the Bible is myth after 20 years of walking with God . 🙏

[@Gossie88]

I am the absolute worst at this. 😂 I'm not on the bench I just call stuff out and make people mad 😬

[@nathanlennon5990]

For the longest time I called it 'working the soil'!

[@jonathancampbell586]

We, as Believers, Need to be in the " Drivers Seat " so to speak!

[@rubyhonan854]

This was soooo helpful.

[@christopher4688]

I feel like I am in the wrong meeting room and hearing something I'm not supposed to. (Not a Christian) Got to love youtube algorithm.

[@maxtorres1179]

Thanks for sharing, excellent podcast, God bless you, I am following you from Spain.

[@Mr.biggstrength]

Thank you

[@viljakainu1548]

42:10 A C Grayling isn't a historian, he's a philosopher. Now, many people might wonder if there's a difference. The difference is, the discipline of history looks at empirical evidence and tries to give an interpretation of what happened and why on basis of the evidence we do have. Evidence is like kryptonite to philosophers. They are able to get where they get precisely because, in their (our) discipline we get to think freely without needing to have any evidence for our assumptions and premises. They just need to work on a linguistic level. E.g. P1: All elves like wine. P2: Arwen is an elf. C1: Arwen likes wine. This is called a 'valid argument' which means the conclusion cannot be false. ...If the premises are also true. And every single professional philosopher I know and have worked or spoken with in conferences likes to smuggle in an entire worldview through the premises, if we get down to syllogisms. So you can pretty easily trip up a philosopher by 'pounding the facts'. Remember:'If the law is on your side, pound the law. If the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If neither are on your side, pound the table'

[@lepidoptera9337]

Philosophy is bullshit since 500BC. Religion is bullshit since 5000BC. See how easy it really is? :-)

[@patticarey9016]

Greg Koukl is a treasure in the apologetics world. Tactics has been indispensable in my interactions with unbelievers as well as liberal Christians. Great interview, Alisa! You are a wonderful interviewer! 👍💕

[@gowdsake7103]

Go on then what is your tactic for backing up your CLAIM that a god exists ?

[@deeschoe1245]

Yeah a liar for god whos every attempt at proving a god have been dismantled easily, just like all the liars and their pathetic bullshit.

[@atl3630]

It’s true, Patti, he’s been such a blessing to those of us who engage with the defense of our faith.

[@deeschoe1245]

@@atl3630 defending your delusion! 🤪🤪🤪😂😂😂

[@gowdsake7103]

@@atl3630 Go on then prove god ! GO

[@lilminishlomit]

Progressive Christianity is new to me. But it explains why there are people who called themselves Christians but their views are so different to the Holy Bible. Then, why they didn't just create a new religion?

[@jensbernhard7509]

They did, it’s called Progressive Christianity. So that they can harvest Christians without them feeling they became Un-Christians. Very clever.

[@paulvoit5610]

They have created a new religion. But it is easier and more profitable for them to infiltrate an existing established religion and take their resources (people, buildings, money) than it is to develop an independent new religion. Also, if they started another religion independently then the Christian religion that they hate would still exist. By infiltrating they think they can conquer Christianity from within.

[@coreysanders6709]

(10 mins in) So... is this just a two hour, two-part commercial for home boy's book?

[@hwd7]

I have both editions of Tactics the second even Autographed by Greg Koukl😇 and also recommend The Case For Life by Scott Klusendorf. God bless you all in Jesus' name - Amen.

[@Kara-jc1hd]

Why are these methods manipulative if you’re a progressive Christian or an unbeliever, but if you’re a conservative Christian it’s all good?

[@paulvoit5610]

That's not what he said. He said that some are using these methods in an effort to get others confused and to affirm things they don't affirm.

[@longstreet2740]

14:00 I've been tract planting since 1976. Walmart carts are very good places, where I plant Foreign ( Arabic /Spanish ) being that many employees are a mission field. The Pure Gospel of Grace is what I focus on ... Don't push prayers, Church, Baptism... Not very good at relationship evangelism, being a very private person, been burned by cults, very sensitive to most church gatherings ( Whenever I try to Rejoice in my Eternal Security in Christ , theirs always some 'brethren' who will try to discourage me otherwise )

[@isaiasherrero7889]

struggling with a progressive and i don't know what else to do.

[@alvinsmith4288]

Very good indeed!!

[@Kanne60]

Wonderful interview!! Can’t wait for the second interview 🙏🙏✝️

[@danzilmonk4185]

Great video. thanks

[@worshiptimewithax]

Check out Voddie Baucham he's the best!

[@robertdouglas8895]

If you want to know the truth, you will ask the Holy Spirit for it regardless who makes the claim. If you want to help your brother, then you will. If you want him to stay ignorant, you will do the same.

[@rochellecaffee1417]

The most important thing to pray for is to Know right from wrong….discernment. AND being careful about your choices of “friends”. Read about what Jesus said in John 2. Be kind but be very careful about trusting men/women. Jesus spoke about a very important way of dealing with people when he told the disciples how to meet and share with others as he sent out the 22? They were to share “peace” with those who would listen, but shake the dust off your shoes and leave where you are not appreciated. The Gospel should be the focus. If someone accepts the Gospel, 1 Corinthians 15) then THEY will ask for more info. But. IF THEY DON’T then more info won’t matter, because “you must be born again to see the Kingdom of God”, and that starts with the Gospel. Also you must BELIEVE THE GOSPEL to have the Spirit, to UNDERSTAND ANY OTHER BIBLICAL TEACHING, beyond the Gospel. In a conflicting conversation, KEEP PRESENTING THE GOSPEL, until you are convinced of the non-interest. It doesnt’ take long , an d they will call you a name or walk away. Either way, this is their opportunity to believe, or NOT. The Progressives are not on board with this because the feel so guilty if they don’t MAKE SOMEONE BELIEVE. But the “weaponization of guilt” is controlling the progressives. There are other gifts beside evangelism like the Apostle Paul. Unfortunately, “religiousity” makes people feel important which appeals to their pride. Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit says the Lord. All the gifts were given for the COMMON GOOD OF THE ENTIRE BODY. We each have our part that we must be faithful to do. The Lord brings it all together. Their are many jobs for many people.and it’s all God’s business. My particular job is to pass truthful help and information to “reliable men”, AND to CONNECT GOD’S PEOPLE. I am a trouble-shooter and i can discern when bible is not being correctly interpreted, because the Lord leads me, and He keeps me informed. Everything happens in the Body of Christ by His grace…..always His grace. He has promised that He would KEEP US. KNOW THE TRUTH. You can not argue with the Truth. That is why these CRT people AVOID AND EVADE the Truth. They would rather talk about “love” as the culture sees it. The 4 types of love shared, in a kind way, will destabilize them. KNOW YOUR BIBLE, AND JUST WAIT TO BE NEEDED, THEN STEP IN, PROVIDE WHAT YOU HAVE. THE GOSPEL. Well-placed questions are very endearing to the relationship. help them know what they think. Then you have something to work with. Do you have something in common that you can frame with a change you have made to live more authentically, if you are comfortable with the person. If they seem interested, ask them if there are any changes they would like to make in their lives. Then you have a possible “open door” to share how Jesus has helped you. Just remember, to DON’T PUSH. Take your time and be sincerely interested in their life. If God brings an end that brings Salvation, that is His business. If they don’t, you left a seed. Pray.for them.Respect for the freedom that Jesus gives everyone to have our own point of view. Gentleness and respect. When we show we care by listening, we are being like Jesus. And their view of us has changed for the better. If that is the only thing that happens it is good for the next brother/sister they meet. The Body of Christ is a living breathing organism. We are all connected and we work together even when we are not present. Do we desire to “keep the unity”? Do we desire to help the person understand? Or to shut them up? Nothing is more helpful than giving sincere help.i listen for the leading of the Spirit. Sometimes the Lord brings a stalemate to the situation. Think through what is emotional for you, and have facts handy. The Truth is the necessity, always. Playing a guitar has truthful emotions that you learn to have the Spirit control. Justice is necessary, because all the Laws are just and loving. But God was not able to be loving and just everywhere in the Old Testament. But Christ’s death and resurrection made it possible at Pentecost. He is now with everyone who believes. Don’t be afraid to speak and live His mind.

[@susiefrederickson660]

“I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers.” 1Corinthians3:6-9

[@worldupsidedown1]

We should never do just one and not the other. Leading people to Christ and making disciples is the great commission as described in the Bible

[@marlew2000]

As a gardener of vegetables and a Christian concerned with the process of evangelism I don’t understand the celebration of not doing both evangelical gardening and harvesting. In vegetable gardening you do both. So why not in gospel sharing? So why is it that readers of Tactics and listeners of this video series seem to want to only be the gardeners? Do we not see a loss of Godly balance?

[@worldupsidedown1]

I agree, it does not seem consistent at all and I was troubled when he stated that he hasn’t led anyone to Christ in 30 yrs?! We’re all familiar with what the great commission is.

[@hwd71]

I highly recommend Greg Koukl's book Tactics, and Scott Klusendorf's The Case For Life. Essential for every Christian's library. Edit: I have the original and updated edition😁 ❤✝️🙏✝️⚓✝️

[@giovannimartini6405]

Atonement seems abuse because too many times we preach it without the incarnation context: "For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way , in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted" (Hb 2, 17-18). God could have saved us in any other way, He's omnipotent after all. He could have just forgiven everyone with no atonement. But the Son Himself chooses to carry our sin, to suffer for us. Making atonement this way is not child abuse, but our Savior choosing to suffer with us, so we can see the seriousness and uglyness of our sins and feel his support in times when life is hard and we can't understand. And of course, because this way He shared all our struggles. "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet he did not sin" (Hb 4,15). "Have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death- even death on a cross" (Phil 2,6-8).

[@marcusanthony488]

Very Catholic understanding.

[@saskiascott8181]

I agree with you; this would be a progressive understanding or a more liberal understanding of atonement - not sure if you were aware of that? Modern evangelicals have a much more black and white perspective- I was taught that believing in Calvinistic penal substitutionary atonement was what it meant to be a Christian, and that it was necessary for blood to be spilled to appease God's wrath ie he couldn't forgive without a blood sacrifice.

[@giovannimartini6405]

@@saskiascott8181 I'm a Catholic (Marcus Anthony realized it 😂😂) so this view doesn't sound specially "progressive" to me. However, I'm familiar with modern evangelical preaching about it and I always thought something was seriously wrong with it, so I like offering my perspective. Christus Victor is a good and very ancient theory too.

[@sojourner8690]

If God would have forgiven without the justice (death) He promised for sin, He would have contradicted His very own nature. Among all of His characteristics, which he is all of these and at the same time, justice must be served. It is definitely for our benefit that Christ has suffered with and for us. God does forgive, but not without justice. Either we receive our own punishment or we are given Christs blood atonement. This truth and faithfulness is the very character of God. He cannot be God and not God at the same time. He is immutable.

[@TheDailywithCharlotteZ]

We can’t save someone or change them, the Holy Spirit does! Realizing that was so freeing.

[@navigodelaney119]

I so love and appreciate STR!!

[@Rightlydividing-wx1xb]

The teaching in the average congregation is shallow and law and grace are mixed together when the body of Christ is specifically addressed in the New Testament Epistles under grace, not under law. Jesus is specifically addressing Israel under law for their righteousness under a specific covenant in the gospels- "bringing in grace" when reading John's gospel, national, earthly promises, which will be ultimately fulfilled after the 70th week of years in Daniel 9:24-27 when Jesus is king on the earth.

[@Js-ox5uc]

There’s no hate like “Christian love”

[@jeremybickel6577]

Let's prove the claim we believe, that believing the 4 things listed in 1 Cor. 15:3b-8 "by which we are saved" leads us to do the 1 thing in Rom. 10:9-13 "to be saved". That's the very core. Romans 10:14a ties the two passages together (and also coordinates Paul with James just in passing), and 1 Corinthians 15:1-3a proves the necessity of those particular beliefs about Christ and His great Gospel work. Keep praying for the siblings who truly are siblings as Christ knows them to be His own, that they would do right (and you and me, too, in all things!), to His glory and our great gladness.

[@peacockprinciples]

Alisa, I think you're a fabulous debater/conversationalist... I've heard you graciously communicate with others and I am always inspired by your exchanges. Also, Greg.. I recently purchased Tactics and I love it! The gardening metaphor is such a great analogy! There is a lot of cultivation that must happen before a harvest. I think the key for gardeners is to recognize and discern opportunities for harvest in their gardening conversations.

[@mariaquaglieri8561]

did any one here ever heard of the bible? This is double speak. Where in the bible does it talk about your garden? Keep talking you heretics, i'm sure you are leading many into hell. Dose the Lord ever get mentioned in your drivers seat. Tactics, game plan? gather information? PREACH THE GOSPEL!

[@marcusanthony488]

@@mariaquaglieri8561 Whoa! You have to know how to engage people sweetie, not just preach at them.

[@ltcajh]

I think I’d rather do a study on how Christ and the patriarchs dealt with this. Some good tips, but I felt like I was at a salesmanship conference.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Try talking about the biblical moment when the talking serpent was tempting Eve to disobey God while God was watching and already knew the outcome. or God was absent and did not know what was happening until later when He went searching for them.

[@nickstuart200]

While Greg is generally correct that WWI was not specifically about religion (like for example the Thirty Years War), it was highly influenced by religion. 1. The way the sides lined up was influenced by the addition of the Filioque clause to the Nicene Creed!!! With the great schism in 1025 where the Eastern and Western church split, we ended up with the Roman and Orthodox church. The Catholic Austrio-Hungarian Empire declared war on Orthodox Serbia. This sucked Catholic (mainly) Germany in on the Austrio-Hungarian side, and Russia on the Serbian side. Read more about how the dominos fell in "A World Undone" by G. J. Meyer. 2. Both sides cast their cause as one of Christian Civilization vs Barbarism. One reason reconciliation was so difficult after the war is that the religious leaders of the day demonized the other side. Fun fact, a common German uniform belt buckle bore the inscription "Gott Mit Uns" (God is with us).

[@shlomorabenovets4709]

Thank you so much for this podcast. Before moving from San Diego to Nashville in 1993 I fondly remember listening to 3 of my favorite Talk Radio guys on KBRT. Rich Bueler, Dennis Prager and Greg Koukl. I've dropped in on his ministry infrequently over the years but do remember being acquainted with Tactics, Colombo Method Stone in the shoe, et al, probably way before the first book came out. I realized listening to this that I subconsciously have been employing them all along. Thanks Greg. Not exclusively. I sometimes resort to Ray Comforting people with the Law. LOL Also I recently became aware of Alisa thanks to KZbin algorithm which served up her podcast with the young sister who became indoctrinated at Biola into CRT and Intersectionality. When I shared it on my FB page I said I had no idea who these nice ladies were but I highly recommended the podcast. A friend commented that Alisa was a talented musician and had been in a CCM band Zoe Girl. When I was pastoring at Calvary Chapel Franklin and later Cool Springs we used to let bands rehearse when the building was not being used. So I remembered having met Alisa's acquaintance a time or two at that Bldg on Mallory Ln. This is almost like an LSD flashback. LOL. I say all of that to say that it is such an encouragement to be blessed by your current ministry and to see Gods hand upon your life. I never got a chance to hear your band. But I'm listening now! Keep contending for the faith once for all delivered and May God richly bless you my beloved. (said in J. Vernon McGee drawl) PS I am posting under a pseudonym to protect the guilty LOL

[@timothyschumacher7707]

Ok, so i am not sure what or who is a “””Progressive Christian?” Are there persons and or tenants that exemplify Progressive Christianity. They sound like difficult people with difficult views. Assuming we are not Progressive Christians what are we? Like, we are not in the same camp? Their camp is “progressive” right? What is ours? Thank you very much, Tim

[@tayh.6235]

There are articles by progressive Christians you can find online that explain what it means to them. The most fundamental belief seems to be that the Bible is reliable in the same way a good medical journal is reliable. Just as the medical journal could be proven wrong after more evidence is gathered, they believe the Bible is among man's best efforts through the ages but ultimately not something you can truly bank on.

[@1Corinthians6Verses9thru11]

According to this article, the burning of the library of Alexandra has been attributed by different people to originally Julius Caesar, some people tried to attribute it to Christians, and some people attribute it to Muslims, but the conclusion seems to be: we don't really know. See: ehistory.osu.edu/articles/burning-library-alexandria

[@chewy4341]

Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus is an excellent book! I recommend everyone to read it.

[@tomkeller6982]

I'm still confused about why they are termed "Christians?" Are you affirming that that is true, that they actually are followers of Christ?

[@paulsevers7740]

It is interesting that what you are describing as a ? seemingly 'new' departure - 'progressive' Christianity - is hardly at all different to classical Liberal Theology - maybe in the USA you do not have the same long history of theological liberalism that we have here in UK and Europe?

[@BeresheethFarm]

Greg Koukl stated that Paul was trained by Jesus. Where can Greg back this up?

[@BeresheethFarm]

@J DV Verse or verses please

[@allanvanderley193]

... Hi ALISA; Just listened to your interview with GREG-KOUKL part-No.1. You have extraordinary guests of intelligence,insight,and good-humoured articulation. In reviewing a number of your interviews now,I can see you have a specific and occasionally veiled ongoing criticism of ‘progressive’ Christianity. I’m still trying to discern the exact meaning of the term you repeatedly use with pejorative identity by intent. The evidence of your opinion seems to be by collecting well versed like minded ‘traditional’ or ‘historical’ Christian theologians, writers, apologists,and polemicists to discuss a critique of a carefully constructed heresy by an ever evolving rhetorical ‘straw-man’. Personally, I find it rather amusing that you,with the help of many others, expend extraordinary amounts of thought in defining a theological critique at the expense of your calling as a ‘follower’ of the Life,Morals,Teachings,and philosophy of Jesus-of-Nazareth. I can see you are hurting. None of us can know the personal pain of uncertainty you experienced. And,yet; each of us must enter the inquisition of the heart on our own. Your critique, it seems,in my view, as only partially genuine, since your critique and criticism is only by proxy and not entered in an open dialogue of contrarian views. In fact,if I’m not mistaken, as long as you continue to only ‘didactically’ interview a consensus theological peer group, the rhetorical hierarchy of argumentation will only be a self-actualised pyramid. Since,your familiarisation with ‘traditional-historical’ Christianity seems to be that of the American Protestant historical narrative. I thought I might share a broader construct of the biblical narrative that seems not to have entered into your circles’ cognizance. Specifically, I do not think that the terms you use;’progressive’;’traditional’; ‘historical’;’christian’;‘atonement’;‘salvation’; mean what you think they mean. This is not your fault. To help, I attach, in multiple PARTS an explanatory that might offer an alternative perspective. The method of which,similar to your’s,is by the polemical observation of a dialogue between third party disagreement. You are under no obligation to read it. Nor are you under any obligation to respond,nor offer any corrective comment. Love, in His Name always. ... Attachments: ~

[@allanvanderley193]

ii. ... Full, JOSHUA CHARLES/ PRAGER UNIVERSITY: United-States Founding-Fathers - Biblical-narrative Joshua-Charles, May20,2020, Reposted, March09,2021, Museum-of-the-Bible, Prager-University. ... ... Redirecting... ... What were the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers of the United States? There’s been a lot of controversy surrounding this subject. But there shouldn’t be. Because of their prominence, I will discuss George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin-our nation’s first three Presidents, and the man referred to as “the First American”-all of whom, even if some did not individually adhere to orthodox Christianity, were steeped in the Judeo-Christian tradition. Here’s what we can say for certain about their religious beliefs. All of the Founders believed in a transcendent God, that is, a Creator who exists outside of nature. All the Founders believed in a God who imposes moral obligations on human beings. All the Founders believed in a God who punishes bad behavior and rewards good behavior in an afterlife. The notion that any of the Founders believed in an impersonal deity who merely created the universe and then left it to itself is false. All of them believed in a God who, as Franklin said at the Constitutional Convention, “governs in the affairs of men.” Let’s start with George Washington. ... ii. ~

[@allanvanderley193]

iii. ... Washington’s writings, both public and private, are full of references to the Bible. This is certainly true during his eight years as the first President of the United States. Here is Washington at his first Inaugural: “The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.” In all likelihood, Washington was an orthodox Christian. Like Washington, Benjamin Franklin also referenced Bible verses, stories, and metaphors throughout his life. His calls for prayer at the Constitutional Convention were typical of his attitude. Franklin, who had his own unorthodox views, summed up his faith this way: “That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this.” While the religious views of Washington and Franklin are clear, those of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson are more complicated. Adams referred to himself as a Christian throughout his life, but did not believe in traditional Christian doctrines such as the trinity or the divinity of Jesus. Nonetheless, before, during and after his tenure as President, Adams repeatedly asserted his admiration for the Christian faith: “Those general Principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the Existence and Attributes of God,” he wrote. Likewise, Adams spoke of his great respect for the Bible. “The Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more of my… philosophy than all the libraries I have seen…” Those who suggest that Adams was against religion like to quote from a letter he wrote to Thomas Jefferson in which he said, “This would be the best of all possible worlds if there was no religion in it.” Unfortunately, those who cite this line never quote the lines that immediately follow “But in this exclamation, I should have been as fanatical as . Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company-I mean hell.” So, those who quote the first line without quoting the subsequent lines are either unaware of the full comment or are deliberately misleading people as to Adams’s beliefs. Like Adams, Thomas Jefferson did not adhere to orthodox doctrine. Yet he often declared himself to be a Christian. “I am a Christian, he said, “in the only sense he wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to his doctrines...” As one of the leaders of the American Revolution, his views are well known. After all, this is the man who wrote in the Declaration of Independence that “all men… are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” You can’t get a much more explicit statement of belief than that. These four founders - Washington, Adams, Jefferson and Franklin - were practical men with a sober view of human nature. They understood that man is morally weak and that religion provides the best encouragement and incentive to be good. It does so, first and foremost, by teaching that choices have consequences. Not necessarily in the here and now, but most certainly in the hereafter - meted out by a just God. It should come as no surprise, then, that Jefferson, in his second inaugural, asked for, “The favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land.” So, what were the religious beliefs of the Founders? They were diverse. But all of them were rooted in the Judeo-Christian values found in the Bible. ... I’m Joshua Charles, writer and researcher at the Museum of the Bible, for Prager University. ... iii. . ~

[@allanvanderley193]

0 ... Full-reply-commentary, ALLAN-E.VANDERLEY ... Hi JOSHUA; It is with deep gratitude that I see you having posted a clearly articulated,and well versed argument,for why the American democratic republic is based on the beliefs that its principles and ideas were based on the biblical narrative. Although by trade I am no ‘researcher’ nor a ‘philosopher’ of any note like either you or Jefferson. I was drawn to Thomas Jefferson’s work while young in architecture. By trade - an architect; I saw Jefferson’s work as pure genius and mastery of classical form. Now retired,I have attempted to provide some cultural value to the local town I have lived in for over 60-years,with only minor regional award recognition and academic achievement - Boston. All the while surrounding myself with the many books and works Jefferson inspired,I looked forward to the days I would have the time and peace of mind of having raised three adult children of our own,to begin savoring the moments of historical discovery and deep philosophical enlightenment. With the outbreak of the global pandemic and shelter-in-place protocols,I know longer was distracted with having the need to travel and visit the many global places I’ve wanted to experience,when I travelled the world last on a travelling scholarship. Since,I held off travelling the Mediterranean coasts after exploring my northern-european Anglo-Saxon Nordic heritage,I thought I would have my health,time,and the warmer weather to finally dust my boots,shoes,and sandals with the holy lands. Alas, it was not to be; so here I sit with social-online-media streaming daily into my conscience surrounded by books to devour for appetizers. To ‘flesh-out’ your perspective on the American biblical narrative it may help that a broader global epistemology and etymology be viewed. As such,not being a writer nor an esteemed researcher,I’m afraid I will need to attach a fuller explanatory in multiple PARTS. Please forgive me for the many posted ramblings attached. Specifically, I comment by your wonderfully warm hearted invitation to open minds. The ‘Christian’ narrative is not untrue, but, you have rather; only offered a convenient historical narrative to propagate an explainable common-knowledge view of history to placate the commonly held cross-cultural consensus of global history. Upon drilling down into an intimate examination of history,and tracking the salient factors in trigger points of significant shifts in human destiny, the historical global narrative looks quite different. Attached,I offer a more complete world view in multiple PARTS for clarification: ... 0 ~

[@allanvanderley193]

1 ... I must confess my response seems quite eclectic and disjointed. That’s all on me,and not the audience. My journal is filled with notes and snippets of online conversations and citations, and only really make sense if I can construct a properly formed thesis or treatise with citations. Unfortunately, I am still in the research,recording,and fleshing-out stage. But, quite rightly in the sense that, if; I understand it well enough, then; I should be able to explain it in simple English. Such a process of parsing for me is the real challenge since the study of theology and religion is so cryptic by intent by its authors. But; I can share with you an online dialogue previous that ‘flesh-out’ my above rambled postings. ... Before actually posting previous related conversations. I summarise the conclusions of the matter in this preamble in ‘plain-language’ to ‘plain-people’; 1.] Jesus-of-Nazareth did not die as a Human-sacrifice to ‘atone’* for our ‘sins’. 2.] Jesus simply taught the intent and spirit of the Law through the example of His Life,Morals,Teachings and Philosophy. That is; His ‘New’ Law by ‘Commandment’ created Mankind in the Image of God in a spiritual rebirth as if being ‘Born-Again’. ... 1 ~

[@allanvanderley193]

2 ... I love the incongruity and cognitive dissonance in the biblical narrative of the Old-Testament. God’s ‘chosen’ people were given constitutional laws as a nation of how to live a moral life as a community, and, then; immediately breaks half of the Commandments they were just given - ‘do not murder’;’do not commit adultery’;’do not steal’;’do not lie’;’do not covet’. In theology this is known as ‘predestination’ Old-testament. Which of course was carried over to post First-century ‘christendom’ by the military-industrial complex Roman Empire by the Fourth-century as ‘Augustinian’ New Testament ‘Christian’ ‘Predestination’ allowing for all the ‘religious’ atrocities up until the ‘restoration’ of ‘freewill’,14-th.century; ‘Renaissance’,15-th.century; ‘Reformation’,16-th.century; ‘Enlightenment’,17-th.century; ‘Awakening’,18-th.century. All this began with the ‘Magna-Carta’, 1215, ‘MONSTRANCE’. The ‘REMONSTRANCE’,[‘re’+’monstrance’],1610, reintroduced Freewill First-century theology upon the scriptoriums shifting to the printing-press,[their ‘internet’]. This was picked up by BARUCH-SPINOZA,1670,’Theological-Political-Treatise’; THOMAS-JEFFERSON,1820,’The-Life-Morals-Teachings-&-Philosophy-of-JESUS-of-Nazareth’; and ALBERT-EINSTEIN,1929. JEFFERSON wrote,finding the Words of Jesus was like finding ‘diamonds-in-a-dung-hill’. He removed the ‘dross’ of manipulations of ‘ignorance’ and ‘roguery’ of men. EINSTEIN simply said in a letter to a Rabbi,he merely believed in the ‘God’ of SPINOZA. I just responded at length on a theological group page,explaining the shift when an atheist trolled on a secularist group page about ‘Black People’ and the ‘blessings’ of ‘christianity’. I couldn’t resist the bait so I responded. Since, I’m not afraid to bore the crap out of my close personal Facebook friends. I attach a full text following for your amusement: ... Secular Politics, ANABAPTIST COLLECTIVE/ A-MENNONERDS GROUP: American-Christian Historical-Narrative - How-Black Americans became-christians July28,2020 Facebook-web-page. ... Arnold Neufeldt-Fast deeply convicts me to share what little I know of the American Mennonite Anabaptist historical narrative. I am neither a theologian nor a historian of any note like Mr.Neufeldt-Fast. I am however a deeply convicted ‘christian’ having studied the biblical narrative as an itinerant Gideon practitioner. Most recently as of 2014 and more intensely with the outbreak and shelter-in-place pandemic,I have been engaged in deep rhetorical conversations with a broad range of theological,ideological, and philosophical scientific communities - even secularists and atheists. With the WorldWideWeb online community and online resource network it is impossible not to find substantive material consideration. Although,one needs to find constant discernment in disingenuous argumentation and trolling. In a recent exchange with a anti-religion secularist,[Secular-Politics],I responded to the question of Black people and Christianity. As I responded,I touched upon many of the themes that touches the consciousness of the American historical narrative as it relates to Mennonite doctrine and Anabaptism in general. More specifically, having emigrated from Amsterdam with Frisian ancestral roots,I have been tracking the ‘christian’ narrative as it migrated from the First-century Judeo-christian diaspora to Northern Europe,the mission track of Andrew bar’Jona,Peter’s brother. Although, I have yet not constructed a formal thesis with citations,I have verified some pieces with the examination of the historical and archæological record. Please accept this rough and academically unverified ramble. Feel free to correct any fallacy and inaccuracies,including linguistical irregularities. ... + ... Question, July28,2020 ‘At what point did the Christian religion become a "blessing" for black people’? ... 2 ~

[@thereseshuler2170]

God and Jesus do not need tacticians.

[@kylealford23]

Here is the problem with a man who says that his job is to garden and not to harvest... Those who sow will reap a harvest. If you sow enough, some will come to faith. It is convenient to say that you are a gardener, because gardening is the part everyone likes. When you preach John 14:6 or John 3:17 you proclaim the exclusivity of Christ which demands a response. That makes you unpopular, indeed, but will often lead to opportunities for harvest. Also, if we are to model evangelism for those we disciple, how can we do that without calling someone to repentance? Can we disciple someone without showing them how to do this? Is the claim that you are merely a "gardener" a good excuse not to model evangelism that ushers lost people into the kingdom? Mr. Koukl also said, "in the book of acts, no one prayed with someone to receive Christ. The Gospel was preached and people believed." Actually, some like Peter or Paul needed to tell them to repent and put their trust in Jesus. That is not intuitive for a lost person. That must be explained. I found this interview to be quite disturbing and saw lots of justification for people-pleasing and apathy.

[@lesliemaple2111]

Your frustration is echoing.

[@sophiapark8859]

Yeah I see what you mean... I think that the idea of gardening is good because sometimes God will call us just to “plant seeds”. However, we have to listen to the Holy Spirit in us and know when it’s time to do other things too (like calling to repent like you said)! I don’t necessarily think he is saying some people are only gardeners, but it might come off like that. We should all be open to do the part God is calling us to do each day and be careful not to limit ourselves when God is not limiting us in those places :))

[@jarredthomas3355]

I'm only 12 minutes in, and it seems kinda like an infomercial, however I've already got the new version of tactics and honestly it's one of my favorite books, I immediately started listening to it a second time after I had finished it the first time because the tips are practical and thoroughly explained, I just wanted a refresher. It has helped me understand how I personally approach conversations even outside of topics about religion. This book helps in general communication, but is extraordinary for learning how to engage people with the Christian world view. I don't really like the how calvinst's protrey the gospel, but none of Greg's Calvinism comes through in the book. He is my favorite calvinist. 🙂

[@Backwardsman95]

Sounds like Christian street epistemology. Just read a book called God Space which gives techniques on how to have spiritual conversations without forcing it a certain direction. Listening and being patient are never a bad idea. It'd be cool to hear Alisa on the Deconstructionists podcast. It's a progressive podcast that hosts atheists and Christians.

[@eliathomas9905]

This is awesome! Thank you for sharing all this wisdom. I ordered the book, DVDs and workbook. Looking forward to learn more.

[@JessicaDumoulin2014]

This was so good, can't wait for part 2! I will definitely add "Tactics" to my must-read list!!

[@martarico186]

I love this!! But why is Alisa looking around much of the time? It's distracting

[@Mark-fw8pd]

Meanwhile, they are sending increasing billions abroad to fund their 'little projects'.

[@CB-fb5mi]

Interesting interview, a few thoughts: Respectfully listening to someone else and asking clarifying questions seems to me, as just the way that two mature humans should talk to one another. Framing that in a 'tactical' way is strange and off putting. It almost sounded at times as if Greg was describing the hypothetical conversation partner as enemy territory that needs to be 'scouted out' before a challenge can be made. I would suggest that the goal of spiritual dialogue is mutual respect and deepened understanding of one another, so why talk about 'tactics' at all? We are all gardening together as humans, Christian and non Christian alike, you don't need a tactical game plan to do that. Asking clarifying questions is the foundation of any respectful, mature dialogue. However, asking questions can be done in a manipulative and trollish way. Asking someone rapid fire questions, demanding a definition for every term and concept they use can be a form of gas lighting. The goal is to force someone to expend energy in a back and forth that is not in good faith and then doubt themselves. Unfortunately I have seen this play out far too often online, even here on the comment section for this podcast. I don't think Alisa does this, at least not in a malicious way, but 'what do you mean by love?' is pushing it. No one who is spiritually mature would have an easy answer for something like that, it should provoke a sacred silence from anyone asked. Any calm, centered, respectful spiritual dialogue should have pauses and periods of silence. If you think a long pause means you have somehow 'scored points' against someone else, then you are not really gardening, you are trying to 'win'. Now that I have talked about mature, centered, respectful dialogue that is not trying to 'win' anything, I am going to get argumentative about some of the claims made in this episode lol. Greg said the burden of proof is on the person who is making the claim, especially a controversial claim, but then said that it is the secular person or progressive Christian who is making the controversial claim and NOT the conservative Christian. I didn't think he could be serious at first. The conservative Christian is not the one making the controversial claim? I remember from my Evangelical days talking constantly about the scandal of the cross, the scandal of particularity, and the scandal of the incarnation. The conservative Christian claim is that every human being is broken and separated from God, but that this was fixed by a Jewish carpenter (who was really God) 2000 years ago when he died on a cross and physically rose from the dead. They also claim that the Jewish carpenter who was really God will return one day to judge the world and establish his Kingdom on earth. Then they claim that the 66 books compiled in the Protestant Bible are God authored and are authoritative to all people at all times, and that they have the correct interpretation of it. Many (but not all) then go on to claim that anyone who has not accepted these truths will be eternally consciously tormented in Hell, but that those who do will live in bliss forever in Heaven. These are stunningly bold claims, and I left out dozens of other equally stunning claims that the majority of conservative Christians make. These claims are more controversial than anything a secular person or progressive Christian would ever make. Even back when I was an Evangelical, I knew that my beliefs were bold and radical. I would never have thought of my faith as so tame that a secular person was the controversial one who had the burden of proof. I find it truly baffling that Greg would say this. The defense of penal substitutionary atonement at the end was flat out ridiculous. The reason that most people become progressive Christians in the first place (and a big reason I became one) was because they saw that a God of love could not possibly have been accurately described in many parts of Scripture. The words put into God's mouth in the Canaanite conquest accounts make that painfully clear. You cannot have an infallible Bible and any justifiable notion of a loving God (well, people try to, I sincerely tried to for 30 years before I gave it up). When confronted with the absurd violence of penal substitutionary atonement or the actions and commands of 'God' in large sections of the OT, the conservative Christian almost always falls back on what I call 'the Nixon defense'. If the president does it, its not illegal, and if God does it, it can't be immoral. No attempt is even made to describe in understandable human terms, how such actions that God is presented as doing could be loving. It is 'love' only through cosmic totalitarian power. "God is all powerful and beyond our comprehension, so even though it might seem heinous to you, it is actually loving...because the all powerful God did it...so it has to be." Don't expect anyone outside your belief bubble to be convinced by that. (Since this post was getting long, I did not even get into the issue that PSA is not taught by Jesus at all, it is only in some interpretations of Paul and most mainstream scholars of Paul dont agree with that interpretation... look up the 'New Perspective on Paul' for reference)

[@bennywalker619]

You see, Greg is coming from a perspective that these radical Christian claims are true. So, if that is your world view, you want to be able to communicate that to others and that is where tactics comes in because Christianity has good reason to be true but those that oppose it's claims usually dont have good reasons or reasons that stand up to objection. Their objections have major flaws but they want the Christian to answer...well the Christian can't answer without first showing you the flaw in your reasoning. So, yes, conversation would be great if everyone was neutral but no one is, everyone holds their own ideas about truth and will not easily budge and so having the right tactic is necessary.

[@CB-fb5mi]

You cant have it both ways. Either so called historic orthodox Christianity is a radical claim that 'demands a verdict' from those presented with it, or it is a common sense mainstream belief that is not making a bold claim. The first option would bear the burden of proof, the second would not. I think it is pretty obvious that conservative Christians are making bold, radical claims. Greg talked hypothetically about 'if the DA comes to your door and says you robbed a bank, he/she would be the one who needs proof'. Well, who literally knocks on peoples doors to share their religious beliefs and seek conversions? Its not secular people or progressive Christians. For decades (not as much today), it has been conservative Christians who have gone door to door witnessing to people. For decades, they have stood on street corners handing out pamphlets, telling people to give their life to Jesus or else. They are the ones who are making the 'claim'. The burden of proof is on them. I know the majority of conservative Christians don't actually do that kind of direct evangelism, I certainly never did (my approach was basically what Greg described, planting seeds in the context of relationships and what not). However, in America (for those reading and listening who are from the US), I would say conservative Christians are still the one making the radical claim and have the obvious burden of proof, even if they don't actually go 'door to door'. Thats because in the American context, you cannot separate this discussion from the historic cultural hegemony that Christians have had in this culture, and from the political activities of the Religious Right who have been fighting against Christianity's decline in cultural power since the 1970's. They have been the ones who want their prayer in public schools, 'their' ten commandments at courthouses, their definition of marriage to be law, their view of human origins taught in public schools, and their sectarian institutions to be tax exempt. You don't hear Muslims, Jews, Mormons, Buddhists, Atheists, or progressive Christians saying that they need to take 'their' country back. Conservative Christians have made a claim over this country in a way no other group has, and thus the burden of proof is on them to back that up. There is another issue at play here, that I think I need to mention. Conservative Christians usually claim that secular humanism 'is its own religion', and they think that it operates in a mirror way to theirs. As a former Evangelical who now identifies as both a secular humanist and a progressive Christian, I can tell you this is not true. I think it is fair to say that every human being is animated and motivated by a personal and communal story of meaning (and certainly not cold rationality). It does not follow that every human being has a 'religious worldview', only conservative Christians talk that way. Over the last few hundred years, conservative Christians have created a mental grid of religious propositional truths, and this is the lens through which they see everything. Because they have this mental grid, they think everyone else has it too. They don't. Most people who are not conservative Christians have much less of a need for certainty and much more comfortability with ambiguity. They have much less of a desire to convert others. This is what is so hard for conservative Christians to understand: the rest of us are not playing their game. Secular humanism is not another religion like yours. It is a personal and communal story that gives meaning to its adherents, for sure. But it does not have some kind of 'worldview' that mirrors yours, it functions differently.

[@bennywalker619]

@@CB-fb5mi For someone who calims to be comfortable with ambiguity you seem pretty certain about what all non- conservative Christians believe and are comfortable with. You also seem to demand a great certainty and objective reason from Christian beliefs that you don't seem to care for in your own beliefs; because you state that Christian claims are radical and none of yours are. I agree that Christians are to give evidence for what they believe however, not to no end. Let me ask this, what do you mean by progressive Christian and a secular humanist?

[@CB-fb5mi]

​@@bennywalker619 I am going to break my response into two posts, this is 1/2. I am speaking from my experience of being a devout Evangelical who was especially concerned with apologetics and Christian 'worldview', and then becoming a Christian humanist. I don't claim to know how every single person thinks. I do not think that it is really debatable that conservative Protestants have more of an emphasis on absolute Truth and a need for certainty than other religious folks or secular people. Even conservative Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodox believers don't have the same rigid mental grid of beliefs as conservative Protestants. Just browse through the 'What We Believe" section on an Evangelical churches website (notice the length and specificity), and then go the website of a synagogue, mosque, mainline Protestant church, Catholic, or Orthodox church and look at their 'What We Believe' section, most of the time they wont even have one at all! Even in the realm of the secular academy (which many conservative Christians would call the 'church' of secular humanism), their entire discipline is based on admitting how much they don't know and then asking questions and testing hypothesis. So, I think you can see that I am not demanding more certainty from conservative Protestants, I am just acknowledging that they themselves want more certainty and less ambiguity than pretty much any other major faith group in the world (I suppose some fundamentalist sects of Islam might give them a run for their money in that regard). As far as conservative Christian claims being more radical than that of others, just compare the stated beliefs on a website of a typical Evangelical church with a typical progressive Mainline Protestant church. Take these two as random representative examples: browse for 5 minutes or so on each and think about which is making a more specific, controversial, radical truth claim... ccseportland.com/ (Although not super long, they have a full statement of belief and even a statement of what they dont believe in) www.trinity-episcopal.org/ (I couldn't even find a propositional statement of belief, just general encouragements to love, be in community, and practice intellectual curiosity) The more specific the truth claim is, the more controversial it is, and the more burden of proof it has...

[@CB-fb5mi]

@@bennywalker619 This is part 2 of my response... You asked what I mean by progressive Christian and secular humanist. I should say to start with, that for some those are separate categories, for me personally they are not. I identify as both a progressive Christian and a secular humanist. What is a Progressive Christian?: Many people have this orientation to faith, but it is not very common for people to self identify with this label, but it is slowly getting more common (which I guess is why Alisa felt the need to do this podcast). It is easiest to define by what it rejects from conservative Christianity. Defining it by what it affirms is more complicated, because its affirmations are so varied from person to person (but there are commonalities). I will focus on four big issues: the Bible, Sin, LBGTQ, and God. 1. The Bible Progressive Christianity rejects the notion that the Bible is an infallible/inerrant divine constitution. It affirms that the Bible is a library of human authored books about their experience of wrestling with what they called God. It is a human diary not a divine constitution. Many progressive theologians call the Bible a 'wounded text', in the sense that the moral and spiritual backsliding that is a part of every human journey is included in the pages of the Bible. Sometimes the cruel and vindictive thoughts and feelings that the human authors naturally felt were expressed in the text as the actual words of God. This dynamic plays out most noticeably in what Christians call the Old Testament, but is present in the New Testament as well, even in the words attributed to Jesus. It is a sacred text because of this wounded human journey that takes place on its pages. In regards to divine inspiration, Richard Rohr sums it up when he says ‘it is only inspired insofar as it inspires us’. 2. Sin Progressive Christianity rejects the notion that human beings are inherently broken and separated from their Divine Source. Any so-called ‘gospel’ that begins with separation from God because of sin is not good news. I, and most other progressive Christians, would say the only gospel message worth sharing is that everyone is inherently connected to divine love and participates in sacred mystery. The only ‘fall’, is falling into shame and losing belief in that inherent connection and belovedness. Our mistakes and shortcomings have consequences, but as Richard Rohr says, ‘we are punished by our sins not for our sins’. 3. LGBTQ Progressive Christianity rejects the toxic patriarchy that is the heart and soul of conservative Christianity. It fully affirms the LGBTQ community as beloved just as it is. Conservative Christians have wrapped their whole faith up in an All-Powerful-Protector-Monarch-Father-God, so it is easy to see why LGBTQ affirmation and inclusion is so threatening to them. The LGBTQ faith witness scrambles the gender binary, and calls into question the notion of God as masculine protector and monarch. Given this dynamic, the easiest test to see if a Christian faith community is on the path of life and liberation is whether or not it has an open and affirming stance towards the LGBTQ community. Christian faith communities that are not open and affirming, while they can be loving and warm in many respects, have closed themselves off from the movement of the Spirit, and are not moving towards abundant life and liberation. You could say that they are blaspheming the Spirit. 4. God Progressive Christianity rejects the notion that God is some sort of cosmic monarch. Conservative Christians describe God as an all powerful, all loving, personal being who has a plan for your life. Progressive Christians generally do not. Progressive Christians acknowledge that God is generally portrayed in Scripture as a monarch, but they emphasize that the character of ‘God’ changes and evolves considerably though the course of the Bible. The biblical authors continually re-imagined what God might be like, and progressive Christians proudly carry on that tradition of re-imagining God. Over the last hundred years especially, many progressive Christian theologians have spoken of God as the ‘ground of being itself’, instead of a personal omnipotent being. A theologian (maybe Karl Rahner, but I cant find the quote online to make sure) once said, “we in the Church would do well to stop using the word God for 50 years since we have no idea what we are talking about, and use ‘Divine Mystery’ instead”. I personally don't do much 'God' talk at all (except on posts like this for the purpose of clarity). I try and think and talk about the Sacred Mystery that all humans are somehow caught up in. What is a Secular Humanist?: Definitions abound online, I dont have much to add here. I would note that very few people self identify with this term, it is more commonly used as a pejorative by conservative religious folks towards those they perceive as enemies. I have embraced the term for myself, because I think it encapsulates my belief that this life is all we can count on, and that no divine figure is coming to save us. Our personal life and human community is only what we choose to make of it. I find that to be both liberating and terrifying, and I wouldn't trade that for my former Evangelical certainty for any price.