Charles Murray - Immigration and Less-Educated American Workers

[@isatousarr7044]

The debate surrounding immigration and its impact on less-educated American workers is often framed in terms of competition for jobs, but the reality is more nuanced. Immigrants, particularly those with lower levels of education, often take jobs that many native-born workers may not want or be able to fill, such as those in agriculture, construction, or service industries. These roles are essential to the functioning of the economy, and immigrants often contribute to keeping prices low and services accessible. Additionally, immigrants can help create new jobs by stimulating demand for goods and services and by starting businesses. The real issue for less-educated American workers is not immigration itself, but broader economic factors such as wage stagnation, lack of access to education and training, and the decline of labor unions. Instead of viewing immigration as a threat, we should focus on policies that support job creation, wage growth, and education for all workers, ensuring that both immigrants and native-born workers can thrive in the evolving economy.

[@Radnally]

A lot of developed countries don't allow low skilled immigration.

[@angeld5634]

Radnally , low skilled or high skilled , the middle class and the economically disadvantaged are all paying the price. Don't believe me? Go and ask the computer tech who spent a 100000 going through university, getting excellent grades and can't find a job because of outsourcing.

[@zanelelong9912]

How about no immigration

[@JB-kx9bx]

Big cities have to use immigrant labor to build because there's not enough labor skill workers in these places. Unemployed carpenters in Ohio arent any use when the building is going on in Arizona, Texas, Florida, etc. unless they are willing to move on their own dime, which generally people aren't willing to do.

[@cooldudecs]

@@JB-kx9bx Right that drives politics... Gun laws, social policies, Democrats are increasingly having a hard time pleasing so many groups with differing needs...

[@jameshorton3692]

@@JB-kx9bx no, wages just need to go up.

[@OptimalOwl]

Wages have been stagnant for decades. Maybe it's not unreasonable for Americans to demand more than employers are currently accustomed to paying. Maybe if employers didn't have the option of hiring foreigners, they would increase what they're offering. Maybe the country could catch up with its decades' worth of missing wage growth. Maybe Americans would be tempted back to work again.

[@jhonklan3794]

Wages have grown, albeit slowly, for the last decade.

[@abdulrahmanalotaibi6691]

Americans can do guest worker programs the way we do it here on the arab gulf, a foreigner comes here work for sometime and then goes back home no cotizen for him or any of his children. Why do you have to tie working to citozinship?

[@mayac.1345]

No offense, the arab gulf has a different scenario and culture. The guest workers are treated like second class citizens esp if they happen to be of a different religion.

[@OptimalOwl]

@Abdulrahman Alotaibi There are a lot of legal and practical obstacles in the way. In practice, the guest worker program would be used as pretext by hostile institutions and companies to bring in masses of foreigners. They would cost Americans money in various ways, commit crimes, and their children would automatically gain citizenship. But I think the deeper reason is essentially spiritual. We don't have it in us to treat people like that. Once they were here, we would make them our problem, one way or another. We can't not, because it's just who we are.

[@sampathkumar-ej7xl]

@Bike Vids Firstly Y2K being short form of year 2000, the Y2K temporary workers did not come during 2002 but in the late 90s. Temporary workers came through airports getting a legal immigrant status. Some of them coming in from many countries including India stayed on in America after converting to permanent immigration status going through a legal process.

[@Moe.allama2023]

Contrast the treatment of an American in Middle East with an illegal mexican in America. Big diff

[@ThScptc]

The US does have a guest worker program for specific industries and situations. Look up H2-A visas, for agriculture.

[@Jimbo1920]

Charles Murray is so out of touch with reality it's simply pathetic. $10-$14/hour are "good wages?" My 17-year-old daughter makes $14/hour working part-time in the mall food court. That's poverty-level income even if she worked full-time.

[@v12vanquish]

where i lived in pennsylvania 14 dollars an hour is very good money. In california where i live now , it is terrible money. Hes not out of touch.

[@adamsmith3413]

$30,000 + benefits is not poverty level wages. Who’s out of touch?

[@mssha1980]

@@adamsmith3413 yes that is poverty in most of America.

[@rogerweigel7925]

Turns out Trump was more mentally fit to be President than most over the past 60 years. Sounds like Murray’s thought are aligned with Trump.

[@grazzitdvram]

I'm sure many realize this already but I would like to point out something. In the 90's in rural america you could get into doing construction and within a few short years you could be making close to $20 an hour which was pretty decent. Now if you get into construction you have a high chance of not being around long enough to make your way up that high and most likely you'll find the cap is actually lower than it was 20 years ago. Immigration is out of hand. Yes capping immigration to a more reasonable rate or not allowing companies to import labor or offshore their production will result in higher costs, however it will also result in less people requiring assistance from the government. In practice it should mean lower taxes and higher price of goods, unfortunately it will likely just mean higher prices of goods and government having more money to piss away on some other bullshit. Prices on everything have gone up, minimum wage has gone up but the blue collar wage growth beyond minimum wage has been stagnate. I saw a stat the other day that 50% of america does not make enough to even pay any income taxes. The US is the most well armed and with the most experienced combat vets in the world, hopefully the people at the top of the hill remember this and actually allow for changes before it is forced upon them.

[@josebocanegra4477]

I like Murray, but sometimes, he misses the target. In an impatient society with a large welfare state, you can't seriously advance the promise of social mobility while telling people, whether native- born or foreign-born, they should settle for and take whatever underemployment is available.

[@alexismwangari1956]

He misses the mark a lot😉

[@michaelhiggins2562]

Bear in mind, that Murray said he would not ever vote for Trump. That was before the election of 2016 --- I wonder how he feels now?

[@irenetv1776]

Regarding the strawberries and other crops. There needs to be seasonal harvesting immigrant system that has some sort of exit tracking system . Those that come to America illegally don't go straight to difficult jobs like picking harvest. Its normal to any human to want the best of what they can get. Unfortunately illegal immigrants have driven down wages for better jobs like construction, used government assistance, healthcare and free education which burdens Americans. Which is more prevalent in a bad economy.

[@OptimalOwl]

Dude, just pay Americans enough that they agree to do the job. If you're paying enough, and people still aren't taking it, then you are wrong about what "enough" means.

[@richardalvarado-ik9br]

What about our foreign policy towards Latin America which chose banana republic corrupt dictators who are beholden to powerful drug lords over communism? Pablo Escobar or Fidel Castro pick your poison

[@izzhipp4971]

10 12 14 an hour considered good wages?????? Are you serious??? Do you people have ANY idea how much homes cars children and INSURANCE on all the above cost?????

[@derekpederson1952]

He lays out a proposal, and then lists all the reasons why the negative effects of cutting off low-skill immigration would far exceed the positive effects.

[@izzhipp4971]

He says he's not a trump supporter but what he's explaining is EXACTLY what Trump is DOING. Lmao

[@Eric-kn4yn]

Doesnt mean he supports trump u buffoon

[@marccovitz5289]

Does Murray realize how much per year $10/hr amounts to? $20,000/year. Who can live on that?

[@angeld5634]

Marc Covitz he has a lot of nerves considering his background. That's what the rich like to do: take the field whites , blacks , Jews, Chinese , Asians, aboriginal, and use them against their own. Charles Murray is lucky he came of age in the 60s. A time when it wasn't hard to find a living wage job and home was affordable . He has eaten from the trough and now that his belly is full he wants to criticize.

[@hasen1957]

High school kids. But really if you are an adult into your thirties and don't have any skills to do a job that pays more than $10/hr what are we supposed to do for you? Hand you money just for existing?

[@praytopesci2794]

Do you realize that Murray is proposing to restrict unskilled immigration so to push up the pay of that $10/hr job?

[@DaveWard-xc7vd]

Marc Covitz Someone living within their means.

[@TheFi1thyCasual]

Work more than 40 hours a week then.

[@angeld5634]

Good wages 10, 12, 14 dollars an hour. You should tell your children to take those jobs. Some how I don't think you would

[@roastmaster2000]

angel d I think he is talking about undereducated low skilled people.

[@angeld5634]

They have not dropped out they are stifled out by lack of living wage jobs

[@eggofhjl5530]

They have dropped out. Deadbeat dads, substance abuse and single mothers have nothing to do with wages. These people have lost hope and so they destroy themselves and their communities.

[@4lugan]

Offshore didn’t work. You guys need to bring back manufacturing jobs to the Us. And you need to change the immigration policies. I am telling you this as a Mexican, I benefit from the current immigration policies.

[@tombryant52jumpscoach]

I didn't like the comment about the guy's girlfriend saying maybe you should think about paying the rent and getting one of those $13 an hour jobs now that illegal immigration is being stopped. The problem of women HAVING to be in the workplace but AREN'T taking dangerous, dirty, physically hard jobs makes the female the superior partner and the male only secondary in the household and lower on the social scale. Removing the traditional male role of head of the household which is a prime motivator for men to want to do well. Also there is the idea that with the man not working while supplying the service that creates children, the woman can work in an average paying job and get thousands of dollars in social welfare CASH that she wouldn't get otherwise. LIHEAP, SNAP, WELFARE CHECKS, CHILD MEDICAL CARE, SECTION 8, etc etc.

[@richardalvarado-ik9br]

Why should a electrician or welder leave Germany, Canada, or the Netherlands?

[@angeld5634]

Lifted out of poverty? Then why are there more economic migrants than ever before

[@angeld5634]

Freedog13 they are not coming to America because of just wars. Not everywhere there are wars but immigrants are coming from everywhere because economically almost every country in the world has gotten poorer while a few have gotten mega wealthy and they use the mean to show wealth . Well if I made a dollar and buddy made a dollar and f&$k head made five million. The mean of all three numbers would be high but it does not mean buddy and me are not staving. That is why they are coming

[@angeld5634]

Freedog13 so what about those who are coming from countries where there is no war?

[@robertburatt5981]

Doesn't the whole issue revolve around what is needed in society ? Surely the societal need is not narrowed to and limited by the "hard" sciences, such as physics, math, biology, chemistry, etc.(!)

[@ElRecopilador-wz9dn]

Supply and demand, my friends: there is a demand for undocumented labor because it is cheap, so there is a supply. As simple as that.

[@DarrowOfLondor]

He didn't really say how more Americans working low skill jobs would increase the egalitarianism that he desires. Can someone make that connection for me?

[@theturkanabus3610]

Cutting immigration would shrink the labor supply, leading to an increase in wages for Americans working in low skilled jobs This would somewhat close the gap between the rich and the poor Also, to afford these higher wages, the super salaries many CEOs get would have to be reduced

[@porphyrios24]

Simply beautiful.

[@raywarzecha]

Charles Murphy is a know it all.

[@MrDanielfff777]

True

[@stevemcgee99]

I'd like to find a city where this is happening. I'll move there.

[@angeld5634]

stevemcgee99 where what is happening

[@MrDanielfff777]

@@angeld5634 ?

[@angeld5634]

When it comes to wage you are out of touch with reality

[@s0medebr1s]

wonderful. thank you for posting.

[@rogeralsop3479]

Numbers matter.

[@FaiqFerozSultan.]

🙋

[@violetgruner707]

Young men would rather have a computer job than handy man, farm worker, roofer, etc. Best Buy, Target, are more attractive. Farmers do not want to baby sit Americans who do not work fast enough to bring in the crop and it is costly. Illegals are simply more experienced.

[@zanelelong9912]

Naw send them back

[@Bronxguyanese]

God bless Charles Murray

[@praytopesci2794]

How do you figure Murray is advocating for people to take $10 an hour jobs? Sounds to me like he is looking for ways to push wages up. And by the way, do you know he is a proponent for a guaranteed minimum income?

[@angeld5634]

10 dollars an hour? Why don't you try living on that with your family. Good luck pal

[@janicep1508]

$10 an hour is for entry level workers, in other words, teenagers. Then they eventually advance. You have an entry level job before you have four kids. You have four kids after you reach management or rise above the basement. Geez, is that a difficult concept? Learn to feed yourself before you have kids.

[@angeld5634]

Janice P you are a very ignorant person. You sound like you have not completed high school. It's these 10, 12, 14 dollars an hour jobs that have resulted in the great number of Americans who are living one pay check from destitution or to self medicate with opioids and/ or alcohol. As for the four children that you speak of you are a poor excuse as a human

[@ryanyates1491]

angel d People choose to use opioids and alcohol. If they stopped spending money on that stuff, they might be able to invest some of that money.

[@angeld5634]

Ryan Yates I agree it is foolish for people to spend their money on drugs and alcohol especially since it is likely to lead to addiction. However, as a society we must be willing to acknowledge that emotional poverty due to the harshness of life, mainly as a result of our current economic climate and its ramifications has lead many to seek refuge in an altered existence- a state of addiction. Not everyone is the same. Some people just cannot cope and we must have compassion for the harmed to say enough is enough of this economic violence.

[@ryanyates1491]

angel d I refuse to feel sorry for drug addicts.

[@lewspeedwagon6330]

Don't like Trump.. goo Charles...

[@ms9625]

You complain...

[@violetgruner707]

I do not think that Americans will work and speed of illegals. We cannot expect strawberry farmers to babysit those who do not work fast at backbreaking work. Salaries is just part of the problem. Workers who quit at lunchtime would cost farmers too much. A timely harvest is what farmers must have....

[@OptimalOwl]

I think we need to expect them to do exactly that, in seasonal farming and in other menial jobs. Have them pay enough to attract Americans who have some degree of actual motivation. If that means paying a lot more - then _good._ Make Americans _want_ to work practical jobs again.