Cheap vs. Expensive VCOs | Does it Sound Better? - Doepfer | AJH Minimod

[@youtube-administrator-handle]

There is a huge difference that I have noticed between cheaper modules when compared to more expensive ones. Specifically, cheaper modules like Doepfer usually do not ship with a sticker in the box. Expensive modules almost always have some sort of sticker.

[@braintree56]

The most important difference! 😄 I laughed out loud at this!

[@bruceselmon3420]

Slaps to stick on your gear or similar always make a difference. 😂

[@pablobarria296]

@@bruceselmon3420 the sticker always make it sound good

[@homo192]

That's only to make you stick to their brand.

[@griffithmorgan4966]

My VCO came with candy. Definitely a top notch product.

[@CatFish107]

Only about half way through, and wanted to say Doepfer modules always give me the feel of solid lab equipment. Not necessarily luxurious, but certainly not a "cheap junk" kind of deal either.

[@michaelkonomos]

Yeah same. I was very surprised when I first encountered them.

[@braintree56]

I laughed out loud on this one. That's totally accurate! The names of their products make me laugh too - they are just so "on the nose". Basic, Standard, High End. It's just so no nonsense.

[@michaelkonomos]

@@braintree56 yes! I feels like the generic brand at the grocery store, but then you actually use one and it’s like, “oh, okay”. Think it helps that he invented the format. If that wasn’t the case I wonder how we’d feel about them. I’m new to Eurorack but I’ve been surprised by how many “cheap” modules are actually good. I got a used $80 polivoks filter made by Blue Lantern over ten years ago, all dirty and beat up. But it’s great. Not a thing wrong with it. Built like a tank.

[@marizuokereke7347]

Doepfer modules are great. They have a single function design ethos. This can be good if you actually synthesize your own sounds. They can also be repaired easily, so you can keep them in service long after they are no longer manufactured. Try replacing a surface mount jack socket or pot on a Noise Engineering module and you'll see what I mean. I'm surprised that you didn't put the different triangle shapes on the scope to see what was happening. That particular Doepfer seemed to have some additional harmonics. They could help to add character if you run it through a filter and also add additional timbres if used as a modulator.

[@mikegeary8056]

Doepfer is the jam. I have a Doepfer envelope generator from 96. Still works perfectly. Their utilities are great. Highly recommend their quad VCA mixer .

[@robthebloke]

With VCO’s, you get what you pay for imho. 1. Does it accept negative voltages in the 1v/oct input? If not skip (looking at you Erica synths!) 2. Do the CV inputs have attenuators? (Or attenuverters, which are better!). If not, realise you’ll need to add in the cost of extra patch cables, attenuator modules, and the extra HP that will consume. 3. How many waveforms does the VCO output? If the VCO has a waveform select knob, avoid. 4. Prefer VCO’s that have octave select knobs over those that don’t. It’ll be more performative and easier to tune. 5. If you don’t have an octave switch, you sure as hell need a fine tune knob! 6. If there is only 1 tuning knob, avoid like the plague! (It’ll be bloody impossible to tune, so don’t waste your time) 7. Prefer VCOs that have a greater number of CV inputs (to be honest, that applies to all modules generally) 8. Does it have a wave folder? (They’re better when integrated into the VCO in my opinion) 9. What is the recalibration procedure? Eventually you will need to recalibrate the thing. Some require single pot adjustment, some require multi pot adjustment for different frequency ranges. The latter will usually give you better tracking over a larger range. 10. Does it actually sound good? Eg the oscillators on the dreadbox Erebus sound amazing, the dreadbox hysteria sounds thin and weedy. 11. Does the VCO have a sub octave output? If not, you’re going to need two modules to sound as fat, however you’re going to double your workload to keep both oscillators in tune with each other. 12. How big is the main tuning knob? Tiny knobs are extremely difficult to tune. Big knobs are a lot easier. 13. What is the output voltage of the waveforms peak to peak? The Moog m32/dfam oscillators have a wider range than say instruo. That’s the reason they sound so fat (with instruo, that’s why I tend to amp up the outputs a little bit) 14. How stable is audio rate FM modulation? This is the main problem with 3340’s imho. If you’re after FM, triangle cores are usually the way to go. 15. Prefer VCO’s that have both exp and linear FM inputs, over ones that have a single switchable FM input, over those that only have a linear input. 16. Does it have a sync input? If it has both hard and soft sync, even better. 17. How much HP does the module take up? There are some really good 6hp oscillators out there (eg electrosmith VCO and Instruo TSL-2), however they will have compromised HP for some of the features above…. There are oscillators that I love that break most of those rules, but they either have features that other modules don’t, or it’s just a HP compromise. Imho, the 3 best small oscillators are the Intellijel Dixie 2, the Nano Ona, and the Instruo TSL-2 (sadly there’s no octave switch on the latter, aside from the sub output, but it sounds so ridiculously good, you really won’t care) If I ever found an oscillator that hit ALL of those requirements, it would probably be 20hp or more. The Macbeth dual VCO for example is 42hp, probably comes closest to my requirements list, but also has a price tag I can’t justify :)

[@WizardBallz]

Calm down and just get a Doepfer 😂

[@tychoclavius4818]

Or you save money and aim for the features you'll actually use. Not all your vcos need sine out for example. Not all need to track 1v/oct perfectly over 8 octaves. Don't forget to make music! It's about the fun, not the toys. (That said, you could argue that ALL your modules need to be repairable)

[@vincentprimault4380]

Rossum Trident/Triton, not for fatness but for chirurgical tracking.

[@MrStupidHead]

Thanks for taking the time and sharing your insight

[@303machine]

Nano Modules ONA

[@TheNewNumberTw0]

I had a rack with a few AJH modules as well as some others. I ended up selling everything for a 9U almost-all Doepfer rack. I really love it. Doepfer stuff is really robust and it’s well made. It’s way more limited in terms of what each module does but at this point in my life I prefer simplicity over learning complex stuff.

[@braintree56]

I really like the simplicity as well. For me it also makes me have to be more creative with patching. That makes it more fun! You need to have a real understanding of how everything works and devise your own plan. I much prefer that to having a complex digital module with menu diving and button combos to remember... :)

[@thrash2429]

Plus that’s what modular synths are about-assembling a custom synth out of basic modules and patching it in interesting ways. A lot of eurorack stuff feels like individual big trendy modules have stolen the spotlight.

[@fakshen1973]

Here are some additional features to compare: 1. Module depth. If you have a shallow case, some modules won't fit. There's no spec on maximum depth for modules and minimum depth for cases. Caveat empor. 2. Module width. The fewer spaces a module takes up the more you can fit in your rack. But the more cramped the module will feel to operate. 3. Attenuverters. In addition to having modulation ports, those ports can also have their own gain/polarity controls, which is very convenient compared to having to use a 3rd module and two patch cables. 4. You notes rotary switches vs sweepable octaves. Great point. Another would be a selectable single output for your waveform vs individual outs for all waveforms. Individual outs are more expensive. But then you can mix waveforms using a third module to further refine your sound.

[@braintree56]

Great points!

[@oldmossystone]

If you're planning to use multiple oscillators, then most important thing is tuning precision and tuning stability temperature sensitivity etc. The sound is pretty close, but if an osc can't stay in tune over time as ambient temperatures change, or it can't be calibrated precisely over 5 octaves, then it's gonna cost you time and effort. That's part of the dealt with the Doepfer high end osc. better tuning range, precision and stability. If I was going to build a system with 4 identical oscillators, I would take a very hard look at the Doepfer A-111-4 Quad VCO. That gives four precision CEM3340 based stable oscillators in a single package that share power supply etc. It also has a 'master' section and mix output, so a single CV input can effect all oscillators - lots of patch options there! fwiw, saw core vs tri core, waveform sync effect is quite different, more 'classic' with a saw core (soft sync on Doepfer Basic is great!), FM is maybe smoother with a tri core, more gnarly with a saw core, PWM can behave differently (tuning modulation) depending on the core type because of how the pulse is derived. These things are not better or worse, just different, so it's really a preference thing.

[@braintree56]

Great info and suggestion. You are probably right about the A-111-4.

[@jasonbeatty831]

Doepfer modules are all laid out the exact same way, and I love that. I know other module companies do as well, but a full rack of silver doepfer looks lovely.

[@morgan0]

my guess is the really buzzy triangle is from a low quality or uncalibrated saw to triangle shaper. it's possible there's a trimpot on the back that would adjust it and make it a bit more accurate. it's also possible it's simply just using a cheaper design and will always be a bit rougher

[@morgan0]

also afaik sharktooth is kinda like a highpassed square, it's not anything revolutionary

[@morgan0]

i have a noise reap paradox, one of the older models from when it was cheaper. it's dual, with fm and sync, i like it

[@braintree56]

Yeah - I think the low quality is where the savings comes in. I'll check the calibration though.

[@MallardSound]

I often do these types of comparisons to see which filter, ring-mod, noise-source, whatever, best suits a piece. As much as I love patching, I like using a (Doeper) Sequential Switch to make the process more efficient.

[@braintree56]

That's a great idea! I'll have to do it that way in the future.

[@strangersun7721]

There's a high frequency harmonic going on with the doepfer triangle that surprised me. Thanks for the video.

[@braintree56]

Yes. There's a lot going on here that surprised me. Editing this video and, thus, doing some pretty deep listening revealed a lot. Glad you got something out of it!

[@modularbias]

Great vid, agreed on those surprising harmonics w/ the Doepfer triangle.

[@braintree56]

Yeah, that was the biggest surprise for me in this video... I thought things would be much more subtle.

[@videotrexx]

I've found the same with my Doepfer modules as far as the jacks being harder to insert cables into.

[@braintree56]

It's kind of annoying... seems like it would such an easy fix without raising the cost... perhaps?

[@Avaruuskettu]

My Doepfer VCOs jacks feel too loose, the cables almost fall out of them.

[@mntbighker]

Compare the AJH to your Moog gear oscillators. And try out the Chainsaw. My first recommended oscillators (by State Azure) were those AJH. I never bought them. I think my best sounding oscillators are Instruo. Even on KZbin the AJH sounded better to my ear. Comparing pure wave forms us useless. It's when things get messy with FM and stuff that the real character emerges. And that character is what you pay the big bucks for. IMHO

[@braintree56]

That's a good point! I didn't get into the FM and all that.

[@electriceric7472]

This is a great endorsement for the hardworking dude who runs AI Synthesis! Just as a heads up to anyone reading, it is available in silver and has DIY options as well! Thanks for the video!

[@braintree56]

Yep! I actually settled on these as my main Osc and bought two more. I have three silvers that I put together. I put some big vintage style knobs on them and they look awesome!!!! Abe also talked me through some troubles I was having with the build.

[@quiddam]

the buzziness of the doepfer's triangle would drive me insane, specially since it doesn't have a sine. I would usually want this output to FM other things, and I don't wanna have to run it through a LPF before

[@braintree56]

Yeah - I ended up liking the AI synthesis ones over the Doepfer ones.

[@the_zero_gate]

I gotta say, between the doepfer and the AJH, the AJH's square wave kept a lot more low end juice when playing with the PWM. Same with the AI actually. I'm a big fan of sync'ing so having multiple modes on that (and the slightly tamed saw wave (the sharktooth)) puts the AJH above the others. I have a hard time dropping 350 on what's a "basic" vco, but if you're into OG stuff the AJH is the way to go.

[@braintree56]

Yeah, that price tag is the real kicker here. It definitely has a very specific old school sound. I'm not convinced it's enough to justify the price for me. But.. thats what's awesome about modular. We can each have our own priorities and sound.

[@solarion33]

I went with AJH minimode system as my first system and never looked back .. I prefer them over the others you compared with , there is more "leveling" in them or roundness? less of a volume difference between different frequency's , the others may sound more punchy but its mote tiering to my ears, which is worth the price imo

[@VinceFinemMusic]

Based on sound alone, my vote is for the AI Synthesis. If you're into building 3 more for cost reduction.

[@braintree56]

That might actually be the way I go. I really liked the sound too. The lack of switchable octaves does hold me back. Especially if I'm using it for my intended purpose of changing chord voicing. Being able to switch up octaves at different points is kind of important to me...

[@VinceFinemMusic]

@@braintree56 I'm still pretty new to this hobby so not sure what my input is worth but there are inexpensive octave modules like the ALM Chalkboard that can control 4 vcos for like $130.

[@braintree56]

@@VinceFinemMusic That's a great tip! I've seen those! It's very similar to the Doepfer Precision Adder that I talked about in this video. It would definitely be a solution to the issue, but it adds extra modules and patching... But, yeah! It would work.

[@pixelwash9707]

I was surprised how much difference there was, especially in the square and triangle going also through the filter. The Doepfer possibly even sounded a little better for the sine, but the square and triangle sound more open to me on the Minimod, the Doepfer sounded sort of muffled in comparison.

[@braintree56]

I was surprised at the difference as well... the big thing that stuck out to me was how much I didn't like the triangle wave on the Doepfer.

[@song-mode]

fyi if your gonna use 3 osc's you will most likely need a mixer before going into the filter. depending on the mixer and the gain staging this will change the sound of the overall osc's sound, pre-filter. in many cases the slight and subtle saturation will add its own character to the sound, and if the mixer saturates nicely such as a cp-3 based mixer which is based on moog stuff, this moves something like the doepfer osc or, whichever vco you use, closer to the ajh. it will add some fatness and soften the highend in a nice way. it wont tame all of the extra harmonics in the doepfer's unfiltered triangle but the comparison is a bit weird as you don't HAVE to use it unfiltered, filtering the triangle a bit, easliy removes the extra upper harmonics, so this really shouldn't matter.

[@braintree56]

Great info here. That's one of the things I love about modular is that everything impacts the sound and your sound is subtly unique to you and all your choices. One of the biggest takeaways from this little 'experiment' is that expensive doesn't necessarily mean better. You comment reinforces that idea.

[@dans.8198]

@11:04 That sounds like static noise. I would have stopped right there and returned the module as defective. Have you tried removing jumper JP2 ?

[@braintree56]

Interesting. I just thought that was the budget part of the module. I'll try removing the jumper. Thanks.

[@dans.8198]

@@braintree56 Please let me know if it changes anything. It could also be just a defective module. Can’t believe that issue would be acceptable for Doepfer, even on a low-price oscillator. Also, Doepfer support is great and they can surely shed more light on this issue.

[@KPsTboy]

I have and compared a Intellijel Dixie 2+ and an Addac 701 v2 which both have a sine wave on board. While my aim was to end up with two Addac's (primarily due to lower 2nd hand price) I ended up keeping one of each; though the waveforms sounded identical there was a distinct difference in the sound of the sine wave which I hadn't expected. The sine wave on the Addac turned out to sound really thin, which you'd actually expect, but the Dixie had a soft, more full, character to it. So the decision for the Dixie was based on sound (sine), while the Addac was based on the options (being able to mix the waves before output).

[@braintree56]

I've never tried either of those.. I should give it a go one of these days.

[@PeterSpiegel-z4c]

@@braintree56 really give the Intellijel Dixie 2+ a try. Very stable Oscillator for a good price with many possibilities and a good size in width and depth as well. Also a triangle core based VCO.

[@corrosiveabuser]

I've been using the original Doepfer A-110 and A-111 VCO since the late 90s, 4 of each VCO, never felt the need to replace them. As Peter Forrest states in his book, - The A-Z of Analogue Synthesisers - the A-110 is "throughly meaty" sounding. I'm kind of happy I started with Doepfer back in the late 90s, as I was over the Eurorack thing by the time the "scene" became so vast. I'd say around 95% of my modules are Doepfer, never had an issue with any of them, - wish I could say the same for some of the other, much more expensive, brands I've tried over the years, and oddly enough, the modules from other brands I've kept, aren't top dollar modules either, - just saturation and colour modules, which is the one thing Doepfer tends to leave to the others. The thing I really like about Doepfer is the practical approach Dieter takes towards analogue synthesis, plus the fact that most modules tend to have their own attenuators and stuff built in, I've noticed with many other brands one often requires separate attenuator modules, etc, to get the most out of them. I also prefer the utilitarian look, personally I find the overly colourful, brightly lit stuff very visually jarring, really messes with my OCD. If I had the money spare, and wasn't retired, I'd definitely build another big system, - probably Intellijel, with a sprinkling of other brands just to personalise the, otherwise, uniform colour one gets when just using a single brands catalogue. Personally I'd say, the only cheap thing about Doepfer, is the price, - and those awful knobs, they came off immediately. - love to ALL, feel no hate

[@Avaruuskettu]

I agree, I started with Doepfer too, in the turn of the millenia, and love most of the modules. And yes! The knobs are hideous. 🤣A warning about Intellijel though, some of the LEDs are burning holes in my retinas, had to tape them to be able to work.

[@braintree56]

I share your opinion about the Doepfer modules. I really like their aesthetic. I also like that they have a focused purpose to each module rather than cramming a bunch of different functions into each module. I seem to be gravitating towards their stuff more than others.

[@Avaruuskettu]

@@braintree56 Yes, and no cryptic button combinations that force reading the manual after two weeks pause.

[@DaGhost141]

First of all, fantastic video, we need more of these comparisons in the eurorack world! A minor nitpick though, I'd have liked to see a comparison of the waveforms in the scope as well as switching between the VCOs via a crossfader to mroe clearly hear the difference. Maybe something for the future :)

[@jukkauh]

The Doepfer has a discontinuity, a small click, at the lower peak of its triangle wave. This adds a whole bunch of high frequency partials into the sound, which gives it the "rough" sound you're hearing. The A-110 service manual says it can't be calibrated out and makes up an excuse for this flaw: "The small needle pulse and the small plateau of the triangle waveform result from the schematics design and will not disappear while adjustment of P10. From musical point of view these inaccuracies are of no significant meaning. The high end VCO A-111 will not have these inaccuracies."

[@andreasoberg2021]

I have a Moog One and the VCO knobs are fantastic especially the octave shifter. You feel like an engineer in a nuclear power plant. Mini Mod seems almost identical. Point is the physical feeling can be real important.

[@braintree56]

That's a good point. The feeling to the AJH is very good. The build quality is solid. It looks great. I actually replaced the knobs on the AI synthesis VCO with some great vintage knobs and it upgraded the experience for me.

[@tomjansen3432]

The Nano Modules ONA would´ve been an interesting contender... Octave knob, thick and great sound.

[@braintree56]

I've heard great things about the Nano ONA - definitely want to check this one out at some point.

[@binarybotany3218]

Nice to see another banjo playing modular synth player :D

[@braintree56]

Ha! You know, I play a lot of old time music and I often think about how old fiddle tunes are very similar to Modular synth music. You have these phrases which are just these repeated strings of 8th notes. Over and over. With little fluctuations and ornamentations, subtle changes. To me it's the same type of flow when you get into it. Much different than, say, Jazz or Classical music.

[@aallonhuippuveikko1476]

Its hard to compare the sound of the modules if there is any variation in volume/velocity or pitch and especially if different patterns are played from arpeggiator within the sound examples from identical parameter/waveform settings that are being compared. Or is it that the modules take in control voltages with different nominal level or sensitivity? In this video it seems that the volume of the waveform was changing a lot between these three modules. And also within one module there was major volume differences betveen waveforms. Minimod sounded exellent all the way. The other two had some unmusical tendencies. Some octaves felt louder than others with doepfer. Minimod sounds fat and stable. The sharktooth wave was actually very nice in my opinion. Crisper and lighter than triangle. Still same kind of fatness than the other Minimod waveforms. AI synthesis module distorts with great tone in upper octaves. Pitch was bit of or just lower than Doepfer and minimod. That annoyed a lot. AI:s sound has phaser fx like quality in it. Like something wrapped around the sound. in a good way. Minimod sounds pleasant and in perfect tune and loudness on every octave. I have no experience with modular synthesis but I have lot of synth experience. Interesting style of music making. I allways think that good instrument is one with good sound that comes out easily with not too many options how. Was the instrument or music whatever style it functions with same parameters: volume, pitch, timbre and lenght. Minimod sounded the best I think. When making music would that make any difference in the end. I think not, but minimod might feel the most realible one

[@braintree56]

I did not change anything from module to module so any volume differences were how the modules were reacting to the same voltage. It could very well be that they have different nominal levels.... That could be a criticism of the comparison as I would need to compensate to give us an accurate sound comparison... But... I guess there's an argument the other way as well.

[@aallonhuippuveikko1476]

@@braintree56 I´d critisize the modules in this case. As I said I dont fully understand how these modular systems are operated. For this type of test could you do it the way that all modules play simultaniously and can be muted/soloed? That way comparision of sound could be easier and the volume differences measurable.

[@temporoboto]

cool vidas a person who loves folding sine waves all day🙃I guess not having a basic sine would be a hard purchase for me.

[@braintree56]

We all have our priorities! That's whats fun about Modular!

[@ralphbarton262]

Use a resonant filter to make a sine wave

[@marioc64]

There should be a trimpot on that deopfer VCO which should be used to calibrate this triangle wave shape (with an oscilloscope), so it will sound better.

[@braintree56]

I tried adjusting it, but I'll revisit and see if I can improve it. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@braintree56]

I also wonder if the power supply has something to do with it... I'll have to test that too.

[@marioc64]

@@braintree56 this trimpot is needed to have exact resistance, because resistors has its tolerance. You can watch Moritz Klein VCO series, there is one about making triangle from saw wave. It explains a lot.

[@NiamorH]

Back then there was the Bermuda by Noise Reap which was a real bargain if you were in the US and very decent VCO with original sound.

[@AndyVonal]

Thanks Braintree! This was a fascinating video... beautifully demonstrated with intriguing results. New Sub.

[@braintree56]

Thanks! I'm glad you're here! Welcome!

[@Hut-181]

Thank you for this. Really great analysis. I have two of the basic doepfer vco’s and I feel that once I’m done with downstream modulation, effects etc, the differences become even less. I agree with your point about being able to zero out the pulse wave, but maybe decoupling that with a VCA and also handing that over to LFO/automation in a more generative setup would make that issue quickly shrink in significance, which means we can still stay within budget and buy a batch of these things without the wife noticing 😊

[@braintree56]

Yeah - went with the AI Synthesis VCOs. 1. They were the cheapest. 2. The sound is comparable, if not totally indiscernible from the more expensive Minimod.

[@surrogatemarker]

Maybe it was said by another commenter, but conserving rack space HP is another variable to consider beyond price especially if you are adding multiples of the same VCO module. I often find myself shifting modules from my studio rack system (made by Doepfer by the way and is built like a tank with ample power) to a performance case where available HP space is a premium consideration

[@MichaelDowComposer]

The triangle sounds like that because of the saw core yeah. It glitches as the saw resets back to it's start of cycle causing a little spike. It's all explained in the documentation. Not good for normal triangle sounds, but sounds fine for lots of other things and adds a certain grit to patches.

[@boriscat1999]

For most of what you did, once you had a sequence and filter on it, the Doepfer Basic VCO sounded good to me. I think it is pretty critical to have both LFM and XFM on a VCO because certain patches need one or the other. Which makes it a win over the Standard VCO for me. It's lack of a LFM is a deal breaker. And most of the XFM patches I like need a sine or at least a decent sounding triangle, so the Basic VCO isn't my first choice for XFM. I'd rather just get the Doepfer A-110-4 Thru Zero for FM, but maybe these kinds of complex FM patches aren't of much interest for polyphony. Acid Rain Technology's Chainsaw is a 3-voice digital saw wave / supersaw in 4HP. It's not cheap and it is way more limited than any of the VCOs you reviewed, a bit of a one trick pony. But if you're looking to do some very fat sounding stereo polyphony with only saw sounds then it is a slightly cheaper option. I guess I'm recommending GAS. Buy a lot of different VCOs for many different purposes. 🙂

[@braintree56]

Unfortunately, I think you're right though. You have to dig in and try different VCOs out. Plus, even with a video like this - where you could potentially hear a difference - I think you need to play with it yourself for a bit to see if you like it.... I've been using the Doepfer VCO for awhile and never disliked it. So... It's all very subjective. I'll check out your suggestions. Thanks.

[@Stardust_Ziggy]

You described the triangle wave of the AI Synthesis OSC to be warmer. To me it sounds a bit like it is a filtered square wave. This is not surprising giving that square and triangle waves share the same harmonics. It just that the harmonics of the triangle wave are less loud compared to those on the square wave. Anyways, nice comparison - thanks a lot.

[@badoedipus2551]

The mini mod definitely stuck out for me… sometimes more then other times, as my preference. Just looking at it.. I was a little concerned that the doepfer.. might feel a little cramped to me? In my mind.. all vco’s don’t sound the same.. but I’ve never really closely examined the subject… I just have the impression that some really stand out to me as sounding great, and some don’t. When it comes to cost.. I have a thing where my default choice is the cheapest solution.. where I kinda only pay more if something really matters to me.. and then at a certain point.. I really start questioning it.. thinking that maybe it always should matter to me.. and over time my perceptions just kinda evolve.. around the subject of value. But I mean.. in thinking about what to buy next, it’s always this balancing act. Like very often I’ll decide on an expensive option.. where the cheap option seems like the lesser value.. and I just hold off till I get to a place where it makes enough sense to me, as a priority, before I get the thing.. where otherwise I might have gotten the cheaper thing a year or more earlier.

[@braintree56]

This summarizes what happens in my brain very nicely. I have historically gravitated towards the cheapest option - rarely buying anything luxury or more expensive. Sometimes it leaves me wondering what I'm missing out on... I think it's nice to see comparisons like this. It definitely affirms that more expensive isn't necessarily better.

[@chetplease]

that doepfer triangle is filthy, more or less a deal-breaker.. my perception is that most (like >50%) VCOs don't have octave switching.. off the top of my head the only one i have that does is Godspeed by endorphines. but maybe I'm just trapped in an information silo and it has skewed my perception of reality. i like doepfer modules i just don't have any of their VCOs. for the money, i also really like the 2hp VCO. terrific sound and very small. all that said, my favorite VCO is the Instruo Cs-L, but complex oscillators are perhaps a separate discussion.

[@braintree56]

Yeah, I think the complex Oscillators are their own thing and many of the. Have personality and features that can justify the higher pricetags. These just stuck out to me because they have similar features sets and could be used in the same set-up interchangeably.... as far as switching - I came to the same conclusion you did after the video. It's not that important. I ended up buying 3 more of the AI synthesis VCOs.

[@alexandermontagnet3361]

Without a doubt, the first thing I noticed was the triangle wave, and the Doepfer didn't compare to either. It was somehow noisy, dirty, and muted (if that makes any sense). I thought the AI Synthesis and Minimod sounded so close I could barely tell a difference through all the demos (although, there wasn't enough demo of the AI Synthesis). I never realized until watching the video that the AI Synthesis VCO doesn't have the octave range knob, which sucks, but besides that, I thought the sounds were the same as the Minimod. All of this is such a tough call and it really comes down to money. I will say, from the video I would go with the AI Synthesis, but I wish it had an octave range switch... Do you like the Erica Synths Bass Drum (and Kick)? I think we have discussed before that you did not like their Pico lineup. Do you think the Erica Synths Bass Drum is one of the best and or a must have? I've almost pulled the trigger on it several times. I am already running out of case room somehow and really don't have much, haha!

[@MirlitronOne]

It's a shame you didn't show the basic waveforms on your oscilloscope because there's definitely something off about that initial Doepfer triangle wave.

[@braintree56]

Yeah - this could have been a much deeper dive - but it was already pretty long... Agreed - the Doepfer Triangle leaves a lot to be desired.

[@scaminc]

One thing i dislike about doepfer are the knobs. Very tight and not smooth turning but top notch for everything else.

[@corticallarvae]

The harmonics on the triangle core minimod

[@braintree56]

Good or Bad? What do you think?

[@michaelkonomos]

So maybe the Doepfer triangle sounds like the shark tooth because it is a little sharktoothed because it is a modified saw? Is that true?

[@braintree56]

That was my thought... I can't say definitively, but I think that's a pretty reasonable conclusion. I wonder if their Triangle core Oscillators sound different...

[@michaelkonomos]

@@braintree56 good question! I still have much to learn. And I am learning much from you. Love your videos. In my mind you are in the same league as Loopop, in terms of how good you both are with teaching in an organized and understandable way.

[@AboveTheTrees00]

Ahhh Steevio. Super nice human being. Very approachable as well.

[@braintree56]

I'd love to meet him and pick his brain someday. I only know his music!

[@Avaruuskettu]

The Minimod PWM sounded kind of three dimensional to me, reminding me of Moog oscillators. The Doepfer had a buzzy high end in some modes that I disliked. I have two Doepfer Standard VCOs and one High end one. The Standard VCO has a really nasty oversight where it's tuning can't reach the whole octave. Not sure if it could be a calibration issue though. I really like the Doepfer High end VCO, but I think it's discontinued due to component shortage.

[@braintree56]

Well - if the Minimod is reminding you of Moog Osc. they've clearly succeeded in their goal. The AI might very well be a calibration issue. It was a DIY build and I'm new at this. This is actually the first module that I calibrated myself...

[@Avaruuskettu]

@@braintree56 Sorry, I meant that the Doepfer standard VCOs that I have can't reach the whole octave without external modules, and that might be a tuning issue.

[@braintree56]

@@Avaruuskettu Gotcha!

[@fattyboombatty7736]

Not sure if it is KZbin compression algo, but the AJ Synth VCO sounds so much better, though I have a lot of doepfer kit which I really like. [edit] Weird just listened to the vid on a different computer and they sound nearer, though still different....

[@braintree56]

Yeah - there are so many variables to this - it's hardly a scientific experiment! Different speakers will have wildly different effects on the sound.

[@ChrisAdante]

I wouldn’t personally go down the AJH route as I don’t feel like it offers much over a standard 3340 style vco like in the AI Synthesis module. I’d much rather spend that kind of money on something like the Joranalogue Generate 3 which has way more features whilst having equally fantastic build quality and stability.

[@braintree56]

I think you're right. In fact I decided that I would get three more of the AI synthesis modules. I think they sound great and they are only $110 if you build them yourself. I can spend the extra money on something interesting like a generate 3 if I want to.

[@noenduringcity]

Ouch the triangle on the Doepfer has some nasty roughness to it. Harder to hear on the saw and pulse but it's there.

[@jockcooper8888]

You need a Doepfer A-152 to switch between the oscillators (edit: hah I wrote this comment before I saw you used an A-182-1)

[@wttw4942]

Thanks for sharing this data.

[@braintree56]

You bet! Thanks for watching!

[@okeribok]

Curious if the difference is also visible on a scope

[@braintree56]

There is definitely a visible difference on the scope. It's not obvious, but I'll bet if you A/B'd it, it would become more pronounced. Similar to how the differences in the sounds might not be immediately obvious unless they are played next to each other.

[@boblove2912]

Get the Doepfer in vintage black it will sound better. But seriously there is no way the AJH is worth three times the price. We hear with our eyes. The thing with the " rougher" sounding Doepfer is this...you can take the high end off with a filter so it will sound like the AJH but you can't add the high end in to the AJH if you want a more aggressive sound. Well you could with a wave folder but thats not the point. Personally, I prefer Oscillators that can be modulated from one wave shape to another with CV like the Tiptop Buchla as an example.

[@supercompooper]

But the new razamataz omniplexor 5D with Hazaraii and Morp (not morph) is coming out!!

[@braintree56]

You had me at razamataz!!! I need more razamataz in my set-up!!!! :)

[@supercompooper]

@@braintree56 I think I have decided that I'm going to start a business and naming modules for people. Just like Alex Hartmann lays out synthesizers, someone has to dominate the field of ridiculous names for synthesizers, yes?

[@darrenmackay2536]

Watching and listening - I like the AI Synthesis myself

[@braintree56]

I agree. That's ultimately what I went with. I still have the other two, but I have a row of three AI synthesis vcos. I got the silver with some vintage knobs and they look killer! :)

[@wilkinx1]

Not a fan of that AJH VCO, but the price difference is pretty obvious due to workmanship involved. VCO in a chip (Doepfer) is obviously cheaper than discrete architecture VCO (AJH) with transistor-pair matching. Some high-end VCOs even have digital temperature compensation to provide better v/oct tracking stability while keeping its analog sound, that's extra $$$.

[@DP-hw9uq]

Yeah, Doepfer plugs can be a bit stiff… but you gotta twist and pull 😉

[@WithTheGrain]

2 AI Synthesis and with the HP and $ saved add an active switch module like the Beast's Chalkboard Octave Switch (or, if your like me, a diy equivalent)

[@braintree56]

I'm headed in this direction. I just ordered 3 more AI synthesis modules...

[@rexcellencemagee6729]

I had to look at when you did this video, so 2 mo ago your well within my setup time. I only have one Doepfer and it’s a full synth module but the vco can be separated into other modules, obviously. I went mostly with Behringer, 3 reasons, I don’t care about politics, I care about quality and price. I can get 4 modules for the price of 1, so called high end. Next the sound is better than most. I have the 2600 plus 3 more 2600 modules and the 100 series, everything they make plus a second 112 so 5 vco s there. Then some higher end ones the radical technologies RT-311 and Delta CEP A (the swarms are 8 invoices in the Delta and 16 on the 311) with the 400 series filter as well) that’s approx $2800 in modules, power and case just for the RT stuff. Then an Ensemble 16 voices and a Behringer Brains 22 voices, and all the semi-Modular’s I borrow the VCoS from, 2600, Neutron n, several Craves ( My next project is to do 16 craves, then 16 edge, and 16 splice) but for now 1 Subharmonican and a mavis. Dreadbox, all of the semi. The point is my way isn’t unobtainable and it’s unique, powerful, and versatile, The semi modular used as individual modules is insanely powerful! I watched your video thinking of course there’s a difference! I’ve got 8 high end VCOs, Moog, RT, 4m, and Zoia, the Behringer are surprisingly close to Moog! I do intend on getting a utility like DATA before I start collecting the craves and friends. Keep in mind you can’t do this with Moog, they aren’t chainable. And it’s a many year project for fun! Not GAS. I will buy most on reverb or pawnshops so probably a little cheaper than you would think. Imagine two walls nothing but tiles of semi-modular synths! It’s a functional fashion statement! lol, loved the video I honestly think 4 2600 VCOs $320 is a better sounding more versatile set up. In my opinion. Unless you’re one of those NO DIGITAL people, RT Swarm is a great way to go as well, not cheap but 1200 will get you a 24 voice semi-modular! I personally think the RT is the best sounding out there right now! The filters can’t be beat either! Nice job and thanks for sharing your experience!

[@kaszaniarz]

I just want to get A-111-4 for poly, cheapest four CEM3340 in small package (same as in "high end" doepfer vco or in AI synthesis) and have -1/0/+1 octave switch too. Anyway to best compare VCOs is also important to check how they drift in time or how they are stable with frequency

[@braintree56]

Yes! I think you're right. Many other people mentioned stability as something to be considered. The A-111-4 was also suggested for Poly a lot!

[@robertsyrett1992]

MINI-Mods are ok, but TBH the best analog oscillators I found were the the Bermuda from Noise Reap and those didn't even have sawtooth oscillators and were dirt cheap. The PWM and FM on the Bermuda just sounded too good!

[@braintree56]

That's awesome. I'll have to keep my eyes out for those. Dirt Cheap + Awesome is the way to go! :)

[@rayderrich]

The thing is, I do not listen to the raw oscillator sounds ever, they all go through filters (which do sound different between modules), delays, reverbs and more effects. Your video was supposed to save me money, but now I want MOAR VCOs than ever hahaha. Still a nice talk and demo, thanks.

[@tomwright9904]

Software and midi map?

[@braintree56]

Yeah... you could do that. I've used a lot of software to make music in the past. I want my modular system to be screenless (as much as possible)

[@tomwright9904]

@@braintree56 In theory a laptop can ve screenless (just close the screen). It does require staring at a screen to set it up however Also you are getting into doing thung that people don't do thar much...

[@TR-707]

i think something must be said about what a cheap or expensive or gifted or whatever else module or synth makes your brain feel and do you get to ride your creativity with it. We are opinionated critters and a lot happens just because we are who we are in the moment. The obsession with cost and budgeting and fear of missing out or fear of sounding like trash because your gear sucks or someone will point out that you used a clone or you have too much money is one thing that needs to be forgotten when you are an artist

[@braintree56]

I 100% agree with this! I also play guitar and have owned dozens of guitars throughout the years - some very expensive. I have reduced my collection to one main axe. It cost me $300. It just feels best to me. There's something indescribable about it... In this case I decided to go with the AI synthesis modules. They were the cheapest, but I think I connect with them because I built them from kits! One the reasons I wanted to make this video was to show that it doesn't matter that much. I'm happy the comments have been all over the place because I think it reinforces that point.

[@wackerburg]

Dieter Doepfer is the emperor of Eurorack universe and I always prefer his designs. He's not a marketing clown like some other folks in that realm.

[@ninando_]

The octave rotary switch is important to me, so my choice is AJH. However, in terms of sound quality, I wouldn't say it's significantly better. Great video!

[@braintree56]

Thanks. Yeah, I thought the switchable octaves were important to me, but, as others have posted here, there are other modules to work around that. (The Doepfer Precision Adder and ALM Beasts Chalkboard for example). Ultimately I decided to go with three more of the AIs.

[@ArkaHtun]

you could have got a thru zero fm oscillator for the price of the AJH , then you start hearing big differences jouranlogs generate 3 . those are pretty old designs .. you also could get. pizza or pony .. if your talking about bang for buck . and range of sounds .. also when you start distorting or making fm patches things can start sounding really different .. defo be happy with the deeper for standard stuff squares and triangles saws .. if you make music with a few voices and tuning becomes an issue , thru zero fm and temperature controlled circuits to keep things tight cost a wee bit more .. look at generate 3 its a beauty

[@braintree56]

I'm going to have to put that next on my list!!!

[@rasmusniklasson1704]

Great Review, guess I will go with the Doepfer for the moment

[@braintree56]

It's a great Oscillator. I ended up buying more of the AI Synthesis ones.

[@mutedsounds2k]

What about the classic Doepfer A-110-1, which also features a sine wave?!

[@braintree56]

A great option. I dont have that one... But for the sake of this video I think this one was probably better anyway because it highlighted the differences and is cheaper. But, yeah, the A-110-1 is probably closer (and still much cheaper) to the MiniMod.

[@ResAffolterSoundproductions]

Danke!

[@braintree56]

🙏❤️

[@Shlobalobadingdong]

I'm looking to buy my good bud a cool and unique mod for his setup. I don't even know where to start. I would like to stay in the 150-175$ range. Anyone willing to give me a nudge in the right direction.

[@braintree56]

Hard to say without knowing what he already has... But... The AI Synthesis VCO from this video is in that price range! There's a link in the description.

[@kaykramer9045]

When you hear all those oscillator inside a patch (with more voices), you won't realise any difference anymore. At the latest when the sound goes through a filter...

[@braintree56]

Yeah - you're probably right. I went with the AI Synthesis VCOs. They are cheaper and I like that they are DIY.

[@PatternRecognitionMusic]

It's a great time to be into synthesis - there are so many options ranging from $100 Dreadbox and Behringer modules right on up to just about however much you might feel like spending. Some may sound better than others in a critical listening environment, but to be fair, once you start talking about actual use cases the biggest challenges will come from tuning stability and patching versatility. The beauty of it is, most of the rest is highly subjective - only you can really decide if you think something sounds good, and if it SOUNDS good, it IS good.

I like the doepfer..

[@braintree56]

Everyone is different! Love it.

[@spaceman103]

23:49 hard to describe? It’s called: GAS😊

[@evanwilster]

who's has ever listened to a track and been like "yep that eco has a triangle core" that's a no for me

[@braintree56]

Ha! Yeah...

[@averagepainter]

actual content starts at 5:30

[@clusterchord1]

ai synthesis is cem3340 i-e- a triangle core, and these traditionally have cleaner triangles and sine waves. saw core oscillators provide un-ideal but sometimes sonically interesting triangle and sine with little fuzzy overtones that aren't supposed to be there (classic example are early rolands like sh2/9, jupiters, and old moogs etc). with that, agreed triangle on doepfer wasnt that nice here. comparing the two saw core designs, i noticed AJH has slightly tilted, brighter top end, where Doepfer is darker. overall all AJH demos always sound little brighter compared to vintage counterpart that they are shooting for. which may or may not be a good thing, depending on what one fancies.

[@braintree56]

Great examples! Thanks for the comment.

[@BlackMan614]

Build quality, manufacturer support and components used come into play. Not something you discover doing a 'sound comparison'. If you have owned a Malekko module you know what I am talking about. Build quality - poor. Manufacturer support - non-existent.

[@jamesb8573]

Definitely not worth the extra grand or more for the AJH unless you are specifically going for a mood sound and have money to burn.

[@braintree56]

Yep. I'm not and I don't! :) Bought 3 more AI Synthesis modules.