So I made five batches of this stuff before I got it semi-right, so here are some trouble shooting tips: 1.) Do not use medium-high viscosity glues like wood glue. M-HV glues make mixing impossible. I made my first batch with wood glue and it became almost completely unworkable upon mixing with a texture closer to over cooked clay than the needed runny pancake batter. 2.) Do not use more than 2x the required baby oil and lemon juice. As my first batch was so hard and dry, I tried adding more baby oil, lemon juice, and lotion to soften it up. The result was much more akin to runny butter slime than workable clay, hard and grainy but it wouldn't hold shape. 3.) Overcooking your clay is better than undercooking. Undercooked clay is liquidy, stick, and a nightmare to work with (think the consistency of runny pancake batter with a few big pieces of potato thrown in). Overcooked clay is firmer and drier (the consistency of paper pulp or lumpy mashed potatoes) and therefore easier to knead. Overcooked clay can also be rehydrated as seen in the video (and only requires a bit more time to knead out the lumps) whereas when you start kneading undercooked clay, you can not throw it back in the microwave and keep cooking it as lotion has already been added. My second, third, and fourth batches suffered from undercooking and remained a goopy mess after I added lotion and tried to keep cooking it. 4.) If the clay is too wet and sticky or your lotion too thin, add more cornstarch. This dries up the clay to a workable consistency and will allow you to knead out the lumps more effectively- no idea how it affects the pull test or working conditions as of yet. 5.) Use a thicker lotion. I was using Lubriderm, a very thin and watery lotion, which required a lot more of it to be used to keep the clay from sticking to my work surface and hands. Pond's uses beeswax and mineral oil, making the product much thicker. I ended up using Vaseline in my last batch and it worked much better. 6.) Beware of your microwave's wattage and the size of the batch you are making. My microwave was a 125 volt/30 watt and it took about two full minutes to make a single batch (following the overcookedvsundercooked guide above). Scaling up your amount will increase the cooking time while scaling it down will decrease it. Also, more powerful microwaves will decrease the cooking time while less powerful ones will increase it. 7.) Substitutions/Basic Conversions lemon juice - lime juice, white wine, 1+1/2 teaspoon mild/white vinegar baby oil - grapeseed oil, vegetable oil, olive oil, or any light/lighter oils 1 cup - 8 ounces, 16 table spoons, 48 teaspoons 1 tablespoon - 1/2 ounces, 3 teaspoons Things I Would Like/Still Need to Test -mixing med-high viscosity glues with water to thin then down -powdered sugar/fine milled flour instead of corn starch -essential oils/scented lotions replacements
@chezlin7 жыл бұрын
Wow, thank you for writing out these troubleshooting tips! This is super helpful!
@Bilyarista20137 жыл бұрын
hi! does cold porcelain attract roaches and be eaten by rats?
@sydneybarajas81467 жыл бұрын
Kaye Padlan do you have roaches and rats
@goulmgo6 жыл бұрын
No Thanks a
@erikergojunzutto6 жыл бұрын
I made my first clay with wood glue as you and yes, it doesn't work. I can't mix because it isn't enough liquid to mix with the other ingredients. :( Now I wraped my clay well and I'll wait for a day but i'm afraid it won't work. :( I used Bison D2 strong wood glue.
@gabyiskewl76788 жыл бұрын
Here's a tip: If you don't want to get your measuring cups dirty do this; Get a disposable cup (Example: Solo cup) and a measuring cup. Measure how much you need for the crafting recipe with water. (Example: You need 1 cup for pva glue. Then you fill up your measuring cup with water up to 1 cup.) Pour the water into your disposable cup. Draw a line with a marker to where the water goes up to. Emptie the disposable cup. Cut around the cup, following the line. Tadaa! You can measure what you need but not dirty your measuring cups. Hopes this makes sense. :l
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Gaby Gunz That's a great tip! Thanks :D
@gabyiskewl76787 жыл бұрын
And you can make any amount of cold porcelain, it just has to be a 1 to 1 ratio. And lemon is optional, but it will help the clay last longer. I made a really small batch and in total it only needed 25 seconds. Keep in mind if it's smaller make the second intervals smaller like 10 seconds instead of 30.
@stahppls22937 жыл бұрын
Hi chezlin! After months of having this saved, I finally gave this a try after a commission required air dry material. Air dry clay is rare and expensive where I live so it's not worth it at times. Unfortunately I didn't review the recipe before buying materials and ended up having to replace lemon with vinegar and baby oil with massage oil. It actually worked, the vinegar didn't smell and the massage oil lef tmy hands feeling relaxed after crafting, lol. Thanks for the recipe, bongga girl!
@xiaoxiao..3 жыл бұрын
I don’t have the lemon oil and the baby oil too, so I was looking to see if it worked, so I’m gonna try it!
@littlebeebs13 жыл бұрын
Pretty cool ! I may try to make some . I’m getting into clay and would love to try this kind . It’s so expensive to buy . I want to make flowers and succulents with it . I bet the translucency makes succulents look more realistic. Thanks for the video! 😊
@KittyCandyCupcakes8 жыл бұрын
Great video, thank you! I've been making an air dry clay with just corn starch, baking soda and water and cooking it on the stove. I can't wait to try this out and compare!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
You're welcome! Please let me know how it compares, I'm so curious!
@lexciee11267 жыл бұрын
chezlin it works ! Although it's bit tougher than the porcelain. If you search up Argo cornstarch "play clay" it'll show you exactly what she did
@danielwilliams81834 жыл бұрын
thanks for this video, still helpful to people 5 years out!~
@amberneider74538 жыл бұрын
i found this video very useful. thanks for sharing and also forbthe detail included about color and drying effects. many thanks!
@rue36949 жыл бұрын
Hi! I think you are very creative,especially when you had a solution to an over cooked mixture.Thank you for all the videos and ideas!
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+Ruelen Sarion Thank you :) Thanks for checking out my videos, I'm glad you're liking them! :D
@ZiruVlogz3 жыл бұрын
Wow! Gonna try this soon..
@bunnykawaii9 жыл бұрын
omg u are so freaking creative 💕
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+Lucy Sun Aw thanks :)
@francineharley17278 жыл бұрын
+chezlin can I add in the paint while needing the clay
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Yup! :)
@francineharley17278 жыл бұрын
+chezlin thank you
@nazmabegum79878 жыл бұрын
+chezlin hey did you use double the amount
@mathiasjedidiahmat48194 жыл бұрын
Thank you a lot! I’ve been wanting to make a fairy garden but I don’t have clay. This recipe is a blessing! Keep up the good work!
@candygay52252 жыл бұрын
Your Clay is BEST. Thank you
@Anonymous-dh6wl7 жыл бұрын
This helped me a LOT.
@laurent72168 жыл бұрын
I love this diy! I didnt have baby oil, so i tried olive oil and it worked great! this was really messy to make but definitely worth it in the end! i will have to make this again!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Lauren Tudahl Awesome! Glad to hear that the oil substitution worked out for you! :D
@nezukochan37064 жыл бұрын
Can you make a polymer clay tutorial?
@BetaMaxx_9 жыл бұрын
I was just going to try and attempt to make cold porcelain today when I saw your video in my subscriptions!! Thank you very much!
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+BetaMaxx Haha, looks like the universe is telling you to make some!! :D
@luckydoesyoutude30119 жыл бұрын
+chezlin do you need the lemon or lime juice?
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
Yes, it helps the clay from getting moldy. I've seen in other recipes that you can use vinegar instead, but lemon or lime juice is much more pleasant to smell, haha
@raatanak9668 жыл бұрын
+luckydoesyoutude if you use flour when it's dry it'll break
@lindalambert11737 жыл бұрын
Thanks for your very informative craft videos. Good Job!
@wendyireland60342 жыл бұрын
Thankyou so much for shareing you DIY Cold Porcelain Recipe. 😊❤
@normanshadow1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks, really informative without any gimmicks !
@dylenmattaliano76227 жыл бұрын
your video is so great thank you so very much it really helps
@sistersarann3819 Жыл бұрын
Thank you, this really helped me understand how to work with porcelain clay :)
@cordypops28397 жыл бұрын
Hey Chez, so i made this clay with normal flour and it seems to have worked well! Will have to see how my craft projects turn out... Thanks for your amazing vids!
@atiyarahman7327 жыл бұрын
Cordy Pops so I can use flour? I don't have cornstarch at home and I wanted to be sure
@matthewlawton92417 ай бұрын
@@atiyarahman732 Generally speaking, no. There are things like salt dough you can make that use flour, but if you try that in _this_ recipe you're not going to get that porcelain-smooth finish. The grains of wheat flour appear tiny to us, but they're actually a lot bigger than the grains of corn starch. Bigger grain = rougher texture and no amount of kneading will fix that in the end.
@nilanjanadas7367 жыл бұрын
I love all your videos! I can find everything on this channel! 😁
@erikasteponic7 жыл бұрын
THANK YOU!!! SO HELPFUL!
@potatobot41403 жыл бұрын
I actually got it wrong the first time. The reason for this was that I microwaved it for the right time but used very little quantity (almost 1/15 of the actually clay) as I didnt have enough material. I ended up cooking the cornstarch in the microwave making it into am unmoldable substance. The second time I made it I used 2/15 of the proportion.. i cooked it a bit too much but was able to save it just by kneading it with lotion while it's hot. The third I made it , I made the same mistake but used kneaded it with lotion and it turned out far better than my first batch. Thx for the very helpful video
@florestista93397 жыл бұрын
Awesome thanks
@itsMarieex8 жыл бұрын
I love this clay! :D I made it a couple times before~
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+itsMariee Yeah! This clay is great :)
@MarkWyn-oy6no Жыл бұрын
How flexible would you say the formula is after drying? Thank you; Wonderful Concepts and Tutorial!
@michellecorbett33238 жыл бұрын
Great video with clear instructions!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Michelle Corbett Thank you! And thanks for checking out my video :D
@michellecorbett33238 жыл бұрын
+chezlin I bought the stuff tonight and tried it out, it works awesome but I do suggest that deep bowls are better than shallow for the cooking part as I used a shallow bowl and it cooked very fast 15 seconds x 2 and it was lumpy
@nezukochan37064 жыл бұрын
It is so useful👍👍👍
@CagtGT4 жыл бұрын
It works like a charm. Mil gracias :)
@AlwaysReading137 жыл бұрын
Just curious is this good for an outside project like a lawn decoration.
@archna_al8 жыл бұрын
just awesomeeee. i made CPC and it was over cooked! i was searching for tips to make it right and bingoooo - ur video. nw am going to add some water and we'll see what happens. Thanks :)
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Archna AL I hope it helped! Let me know how it went, and if you have any more questions! :)
@archna_al8 жыл бұрын
+chezlin hi . i tried n it turnd into a gooey mess. then i added some cornflour n got it like dough consistency. the bits n lumps were still visible and i didnt get the soft tips when pulled apart. :( but am able to make good charms. :D i just have two doubts 1. Eyepins fallout when the clay shrinks 2. i cook the mix on stove. .so at what stage shoul d i take it off the flame. .should it still be a lill liquid-y? or..a good thick ball(that's wat it looked like for the first batch - little overcooked). TIA :)
@omone770 Жыл бұрын
thank you... loved it..who knew!!
@amberlindsey71124 жыл бұрын
I know this is an older video but do you think it needs to sit for the 24 hours before using it. I made some to make a haunted tree with as I didn't want to use that much polymer clay. Just kinda impatient and don't want to wait if I don't have to lol.
@cheolhaoxvii31607 жыл бұрын
*Thank you so much! From the charms you've made with this does it grow molds or something?*
@Kayenne542 жыл бұрын
Addition of vinegar or lemon juice should help prevent that.
@anwaa22585 жыл бұрын
What can i use instead of lemon juice cuz i made a recipe with lemon juice once but it grew mold and i had to throw it out or can i just not use lemon juice?
@spider-man27657 жыл бұрын
Hey there! I was wondering if it was safe to use the microwave for food after doing this. Thanks!
@Jonathan-ui2oi9 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this video !!!!
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+My Name is “Buddy” Wings You're welcome, thanks for checking it out! :D
@CarolineRose24288 жыл бұрын
You can also use flour
@seeja54936 жыл бұрын
Can we make jewellery with this clay? Will sweat spoil the same when we wear it?
@jackiedrowley33518 жыл бұрын
In England joint compound is polly filler .x
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Oh, really? Thanks for letting me know! I'll add that to the annotations :)
@cassandraclose46175 жыл бұрын
Can we use this clay instead of the polymer clay you used in the planter video?
@wagnerab19587 жыл бұрын
Great video! My clay is a little soft, how can I fix it?
@becca52488 жыл бұрын
You are gorgeous!!! And so creative!! DIY slime next pls!!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+OreoCupcakesGames Thank you! I'll add slime to my list of suggestions :) I plan on getting to it sometime, but I have a schedule of projects so it might be a few weeks until I'm able to do it!
@becca52488 жыл бұрын
Yay!!
@irgendeinphangirl1889 жыл бұрын
I love DIY clay recipes, if you still know some, it would be awesome to see them! I hope I will have the time to make the paper clay soon, because I really love it
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+Irgendein Fangirl I don't know any more DIY clay recipes, but if I find any different ones and like 'em, I'll totally make a video for it!
@jenniferqueen97788 жыл бұрын
+chezlin can I use flour please respond quickly
@kaylalockhart25905 жыл бұрын
Do I have to let the clay sit for 24 hours? Will it not work if I use it right away?
@galaxycat58346 жыл бұрын
I was noticing that in this tutorial (and in most I've seen) that when measuring the glue that a dry measuring cup is used and not a wet.. does this make a difference? Or is it really one part to one part??
@rescuerocks3 жыл бұрын
I always made the non cook one but decided to try this tonight. Noticed it to be a lot softer than the non cook version right of the bat. Lets see how it is tomorrow. Thanks
@kathrynmcmorrow7170 Жыл бұрын
Hi. May I ask what your non cook recipe is? Thanks for your time.
@maraly24967 жыл бұрын
can you use regular oil please reply
@zanerobbins76048 жыл бұрын
i recomend sifting the cornstarch because in mine there were chunks of cornstarch😬
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
That's a good tip, thanks! Was it still lumpy after letting it sit for a while? That's supposed to help any lumps absorb the moisture in the mixture.
@zanerobbins76048 жыл бұрын
+chezlin yes there was still lumps after letting it sit for a couple days so i still had to pick them out as i was working.
@_izmak8 жыл бұрын
Hi, I'm subscribed to your channel just yesterday. Love your videos! Can I use a clear glue as long as it's PVA glue?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Janie Kim Thanks for subscribing! :D I'm not sure if clear glue would work. It may, but it would turn white or cloudy looking when you mix the cornstarch in anyway.
@rainbowgalaxy28999 жыл бұрын
Hi!omgosh your so adorable I also want to request something. Can u please mae a cold porcelain charm tutorial any charm btw i luve your vid.
@Chrissy-wr7kk8 жыл бұрын
LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Thanks!!
@flamingomtn6 жыл бұрын
I have a polymer clay piece that can't be baked anymore but needs a bit more product put on to smooth out a boo boo. Will cold porcelain stick to polymer clay or does it need help...glue first or whatever?
@off97767 жыл бұрын
can i use transparent glue
@yuwanolivarez55854 жыл бұрын
Hello just a question we dont have a microwave so can we put it in a stove instead while mixing it until its the right consistency?
@BKaitsuki7 жыл бұрын
I will defenetly do this clay
@lumi54547 жыл бұрын
I made some with flour instead of cornstarch it worked sort of
@unireslife1828 жыл бұрын
Can you substitute baby oil ?? and Thanks for the video .
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+UniRes Life I've heard of people successfully using different types of cooking oil instead of baby oil, but I've never done it personally, so I can't say with confidence whether that works. I'll have to try making a test batch like that someday!
@samuelhugo33872 жыл бұрын
I'm actually a flintknapper and I want to make my own porclelain "rocks" to knapp from, I hope this kind of porcelian has good fractal properties and will flake well because the rocks I have where I live don't do so well
@baylove24678 жыл бұрын
you help me so much;!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+baylove 24 Yay, I'm so glad! :D Thanks for checking out my videos!
@xaviercollard62189 жыл бұрын
Nice diy clay
@estellerentzke694 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video I am going to try this. I would like it if you can make a cala lily out of your clay so I can see how you make it. I want to make some for my daughter to put on a canvas. Hope you can help. 💐
@valentinajaramillo59928 жыл бұрын
This video was really helpful, but can i use lime instead of lemon ?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Valentina Jaramillo Sorry for the late reply! I believe lime could work. I've never tried it and I've never seen people do it, but it's the acidity of the lemon juice that is what you're going for, and I believe that lime is similar. Vinegar would work too. Hope this helps you out! :)
@valentinajaramillo59928 жыл бұрын
Thanks :D
@Bilyarista20137 жыл бұрын
@chezlin what happens to the clay months after? like does it mold? does it go bad? can rats eat them?
@madhuriputta57028 ай бұрын
I found this video a year ago, followed this tutorial and made a batch of cold porcelain exactly like she showed except I used vinegar instead of lemon juice. I’ve been using it occasionally in small portions and it was still amazing to work with without going bad. lol you’re ahead of me- I am replying to a message that’s 6 yrs old. Hope you found your answer! 😊
@florestista93397 жыл бұрын
La puedo pintar después con oil Paint? Gracias
@weatherwax-rj5do8 жыл бұрын
I have copied to a T an after to rounds of 10 secs in micro (800watts) lumpy but mines thick to start with any pointers plz Tia x
@bjuana13 Жыл бұрын
Question can you use this clay to make earrings like you would if it was made with polymer clay?
@jennifercousins45587 жыл бұрын
Hi Chezlin I was wondering if you can use glutinous free cornstarch as that is all I have would it make a difference to the mixture. Thanking you, Jeni Cousins.
@Chemeleon157 жыл бұрын
Jennifer Cousins Cornstarch is always gluten free. It's made from corn. Gluten is found in wheat and things that have touched wheat.
@plushyeti14158 жыл бұрын
Amazing video! Very well explained :3 how long can you keep the clay in the bag before it dries?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Maya Cansdale Thank you! As far as I know, as long as you keep it wrapped up really well it should last for a long, long time. In fact, I still have some of the clay from this batch and it's still good. I don't know if that's normal or not because I don't work with cold porcelain THAT much, but a someone else who works with cold porcelain more might be able to give you a better answer. :)
@heavenlygirl74082 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video! Can I color this clay with acrylic paint? I heard that acrylic paint will ruin the clay. Is that right?
@ansonwu89348 жыл бұрын
If I were to cut down this recipe, would I also need to cut down the cook time by half or quarters etc?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Anson Wu I don't think that would be necessary, but it wouldn't hurt to do so.
@valeriaam73324 жыл бұрын
IS THIS WATERPROOF? After letting dry the porcelain piece, can it be wet? Should I put a sealer so I can use it as a mug and be washable?
@i_like_trainstm35847 жыл бұрын
can i use cooking oil ?
@wajihaadnan50267 жыл бұрын
how can i glaze my cod porcelain goods???
@puckizzy8 жыл бұрын
Love your video. I need help!! I've jacked up two batches of clay. I over cooked it. Guess I needed to take it out when it was still a bit goopy. Anyway, can it be saved if it's really overcooked? (like NO points/teardrop shape when pulling apart, but totally broken/rough edges)????? HELP!?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Karla Littke It's hard to say since I can't see and touch the clay. If it's still soft enough for you to knead then you can probably fix it. Just make another batch but be sure to under cook it and then knead the overcooked clay into that. It'll be messy, but it should even itself out.
@puckizzy8 жыл бұрын
+chezlin Thank you. I'd read that somewhere too. I tried adding more lotion and a bit of water. I'll try another batch & undercook it. I hope I can save it. If not, it's cheap enough, right?! Thanks for your quick response!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Good luck! Let me know how it goes :)
@puckizzy8 жыл бұрын
Well, it didn't work. =( I added an undercooked batch while still hot, to the cold over cooked batch & ended up with the same consistency. Gonna dump it all and start from scratch!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Aw man, I'm sorry! Good luck with the new batch!
@zoponex32243 жыл бұрын
thanks for this! i have used polymer for years, but am excited to try this. you are cuter than a button, btw.
@daphneperez49927 жыл бұрын
i honestly thought i wasn't going to do it on the first try. I had been looking for easier ways and I like to thank you for this tutorial
@ViolentOrchid9 жыл бұрын
super cool.
@chezlin9 жыл бұрын
+ViolentOrchid Thank you! and thanks for stopping by to check it out~
@charliejacobs84468 жыл бұрын
I live this video
@luigisupershemckinwhepper45773 жыл бұрын
Oof this is old I was 7 when this was out
@laurakinney5695 Жыл бұрын
Can you still use your microwave to heat up your food even after you have used it to cook air dry clay which has glue in it?
@MrErossc7 жыл бұрын
Quite interesting.
@d.e.murray51055 жыл бұрын
Can this be done on a stove?
@atelier142.creations Жыл бұрын
I made my porcelain and even though when I stretched it and it has the pointy ends somehow looks a tiny bit crumbly on the sides. Even though its super soft. 😔
@udaykaria41845 жыл бұрын
Can v mak faces also nd emboss work with this clay
@Beccaworstell8 жыл бұрын
That was fun to make!!! Nice and messy!
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Becca Worstell Yay! I'm glad to hear it! :D
@afrojajahan54604 жыл бұрын
What happens when cold porcelain meets water. Does it melt? Can It be used to make food bowl?
@dissanayake2 жыл бұрын
Miss um from sri lanka. Can you tell me that glue is edible glue or Or the kind of glue we use most often
@xoas21323 жыл бұрын
can you use your regular home use microwave or should you do it another way?
@mnxenx0024 жыл бұрын
is it possible to use gas stove instead of microwave oven to heat the mixture?
@GayFaerietales7 жыл бұрын
The subtitles lol 👌🏽👌🏽
@finn83917 жыл бұрын
Does it crack after drying? also I saw in the comments that we needed to seal it with glaze but I really want to keep the matte look of it
@probablytired12657 жыл бұрын
Aetheris Dreamicus Glazes can be bought glossy, satin, or matte
@clarakyme8 жыл бұрын
i like the translucency... but i guess that goes away if you add color (since the paint isn't translucent). I wonder if it will be translucent if i use something like gel food coloring to color it?
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+Clara Me There's only one way to find out! :) (I've seen people color cold porcelain with food coloring, but I've never seen how it looks after it dries.)
@zamorarocio138 жыл бұрын
I made some beads with my clay and they all cracked do you know what I could of done wrong
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
+zamorarocio13 Hmm, the clay might have been overcooked. Or it might have dried too fast. Fortunately, with cold porcelain you can just fill in the cracks with more cold porcelain to try to fix it :)
@hayleewatt51754 жыл бұрын
1 cup glue 1 cup cornstarch 1 tbsp lemon juice 1 tbsp baby oil/olive oil Lotion
@florenceiheme6 ай бұрын
❤
@vinsueringamer23888 жыл бұрын
Can you substitute the baby oil for vinegar
@gabyiskewl76787 жыл бұрын
Floralizzy// Gamer no, but you can substitute baby oil with any other type of oil. Or you can substitute lemon juice with vinegar.
@queenie57738 жыл бұрын
hi i just wanna ask if i can use it right away once its done or i have to wait for like 24hrs? thank u..
@chezlin8 жыл бұрын
Yo should wait the 24 hours (or overnight at least). It helps to make sure everything is completely absorbed so you won't have any lumps or anything.
@tanvisv46436 жыл бұрын
what kind of glaze can we use for cold porcelain or air dry clay
@FinalFantasyIXIIII5 жыл бұрын
How durable is this stuff once dried? I'm planning on using it for a mask, but if it comes out fragile I don't want to.