Ship Chartering : How Ships Earn Even When Not Moving | Chief MAKOi

[@CanConMil]

Leaving For My First Ship Today (Engine Cadet). Thanks For Everything Chief.

[@ChiefMAKOi]

Good hunting!

[@nekoroms]

Sail safely :) and remember to also have fun on the long voyages.

[@Davey-Boyd]

Good luck and happy voyages!

[@manuelaffonso2191]

All the best. What type of ship is it ??

[@MervynPartin]

Work hard and enjoy the experience- it's World travel with wages. A great way to meet other people and other cultures. Note, if the 2/E asks you to check the levels of red and green kerosene for the emergency navigation lamps, he is pulling your leg.

[@rogerblackwood8815]

Aviation is very similar in operation to what you describe chief! There's dry lease, wet lease and hourly rental. Dry lease means the renter pays for fuel, oil but not maintenance or usually insurance. There's normally a monthly minimum usage, 30 hrs is typical and the renter takes the plane to their base airport and pays parking etc. With wet lease the customer is or has his own pilot and takes the plane on an hourly rate all inclusive. There is also something very similar to voyage lease, the customer specifies the journey and the owner supplies the plane with a crew and flies the charter, a lot of PC12's, an 8 seat executive type turbo prop, are rented this way for air taxi type ops. Due to the different licensing systems, the pilot and plane must not be from the same company, but it is an easy work around to save a lot of money. Compared to rocking up at an airport and asking for a plane to take you from a to b which requires something called an AOC, which entails a ton of certification and money! The Lear jets at Biggin Hill go out for around £8000/hr which is way more expensive than the PC12 option and hardly any faster on a couple of hours leg! But I did get a free Perroni the last time I flew on the Lear jet🍺🍺👍👍

[@matthewbeasley7765]

I find the most interesting aspect of aviation is the power hours aspect where the aircraft owner or operator doesn't own the engines, they just pay for the hours the engines turn. It is also pretty interesting the differences in costs and capabilities in aviation vs. maritime. For example, a wide body aircraft is about the same cost as a 100,000 ton ship. They also have similar power levels. A three story tall, uni flow slow two stroke diesel can have comparable power to a pair of GE90's or similar jet engines. But that massive chunk of iron on in the ship is about 1/4 the cost of the two jet engines. The ranges are often similar too.

[@rogerblackwood8815]

@@matthewbeasley7765 I know some PJ's engines are on a programme, you pay a monthly fee and the engines are looked after by the manufacturer. Almost like renting your engines? There's a TBM 930 in our hangar owned by an owner operator, the engine in that is a PT6A 66D, a quick look found an almost new one for only $1.4m!! They have a TBO of 5000hrs or more depending on usage, and an O/H is around the $300,000 mark. So the program is like insurance, if something goes wrong you win, nothing goes wrong it's cheaper to manage them yourself! Interesting comparison with ships and large jets, but the mission is completely different in all respects so it is a bit of apples with oranges? How do you quantify the speed advantage of the aircraft over the weight hauling advantage of the ship? I suppose just for the hell of it you could calculate the time it takes a ship to move say 50,000 tonnes 1000 miles, compared to how many tonnes a plane could move in the same amount of time? A ship would take at 10 Kn 100hrs to move the cargo 1000 miles(disregarding tidal flows for this exercise!). The plane at 500mph, a good rule of thumb for air travel, could make 50 trips of 1000 miles in the same time and move around 100 tonnes per trip. So the plane would move 5000 tonnes to the ships 50,000 tonnes? I guess that's why sea freight is way cheaper than air freight😜😜 I'm not up on fuel consumption of large ships, but the plane would use about 700 tonnes of fuel in this example, what would the ship use?

[@ryteulopki8069]

@@matthewbeasley7765 What is the fuel consumption of PC12 with full load and max distance?

[@howardsportugal]

We imported a load of cement from Vietnam to Rep of Congo...26k tonnes. We got hit with demurrage charges, wiped out the whole profit...and most of the load was then stolen by corruption. We were unloading, about halfway through, when the ship was told to stand-off (put out of port, wait on anchor) because the president, Denis Sassou N'Guesso, had a load of cows arriving. (You can't grow cows in equatorial Africa due to Tsetse) As it was cheaper to ship them alive for butchering than butcher & send in frozen containers, they were sent alive. In shipping containers. From Brazil. After arrival, whilst our ship stood off & the trucks stood idle, or sub-contracted to steal our product from warehouses where customs officials took brown envelopes, the cows were loaded onto & under Chinook helicopters to be flown to Brazzaville for slaughter. I kid you not. You can't hope to run a business under these terms....

[@manuelaffonso2191]

🤣😂😅🤣😂

[@ryteulopki8069]

Welcome to Soviet Union ;)

[@howardsportugal]

@@ryteulopki8069 p.s. - I also lived in Russia, Moscow, for a few months...beautiful city

[@howardsportugal]

@@manuelaffonso2191 it was actually very funny. The level of corruption was so blatent & off-the-scale that it was just what you saw everywhere...the flipside of the amusement is it keeps the people poor & indentured. The people that got richest out of us were the Libyan owners of the warehouses, though they were more interested in storing US aid - indefinitely & at $10,000 a month per 100SqM

[@ryteulopki8069]

@@howardsportugal I am not from Russia. Russia was only one of many countries occupied by Soviet Union. And ideology of SU is still living inside EU. Centralised, corrupted government with little to no space left for normal/common people. Good luck, stay safe!

[@monkeymalletsvideos]

Every economics student everywhere in the world today should be required to watch this video! I spent semesters in Admiralty Law courses and International Law courses, and this is by far the best explanation of how this business works that I've ever heard.

[@santamanone]

So the Voyage Charter is the analogous as hiring trucking company to move your furniture to a new home. While a Barebones Charter is analogous to renting a U-Haul to do the move yourself.

[@nicolasdenis7094]

Not really, consider you appoint a company to move goods to a new destination. The company can then use own trucks, hire trucks or subcontract the trucking. Typically the cargo owner is not involved in the chartering agreement. (Plenty of exceptions though)

[@Gunnr1236]

Fascinating look at part of the industry that most people rarely get to see. Thanks, Chief!! As always, great content!

[@krizzelmaebayos6522]

Hi, Chief! My beau is an engine cadet currently undertaking his onboard training. He told me to subscribe on your channel because your videos are worth watching. Since I got here, I learned a lot about seafaring. All of your videos are awesome and educational. This particular video helped me understand new perspective that are not found in my accounting books. I only knew lease accounting and limited perspective of some shipping terms. Ship chartering is a whole new knowledge to me! Aside from the word "wharfage", I earned a new shipping jargon related to accounting which is "demurrage". Salamat, Chief for imparting your knowledge! 🥰 Keep inspiring us with your videos. Mabuhay po kayo! 😊

[@steveanderson9290]

Great explanation aside, I was mesmerized by the clip of the loading of bags of some commodity into the cargo hold. MANUALLY, a fine example of the old adage "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time."

[@ronblack7870]

i guess it's economics. takes longer to load but if it was palletized the bulk carrier would hold less so would take more ships to carry the same load.

[@ShrienM]

Dear Chief. These educational videos are amazing. Thank you so much for your time and knowledge for putting this together. Really appreciate the knowledge

[@RobertPalomoMusic]

I have read that some cargo ships earn a little added income carrying passengers. A video about that would be interesting.

[@KenNeumeister]

I am sure this only scratches the surface of the intricacies of the business aspects of shipping, with many permutations of the arrangements of the parties involved.

[@beefgoat80]

As always, I learned something I hadn't known beforehand. Great video Chief!

[@capicolaspicy]

Thanks Chief, very informative video well delivered! My father, a British sea captain in the 1930's, was a Ports Superintendent for Kerr Steamship Company in New York City back in the fifties and sixties. It's a pretty amazing industry. Pre-computer dayis of course, so he had a staff of 20 to 30 stenographers that spent their days filling out 5 x 8 index cards so they could cross reference all of the different data points of ports around the world to know which Kerr ships could go in and which could not.

[@orlandomah1186]

Finally managed to join in live... always enjoying your videos, keep them coming

[@ChiefMAKOi]

Thanks for coming! 😊

[@Lost-In-Blank]

@@ChiefMAKOi Yes ! Someone posted later that they resented getting notices of an up-coming livestream. But to me, so long as the notice is within 24 hours of the livestream I do not mind. It is creators who put out the live stream notices 2, 3, 4 days ahead of time that bug me.

[@stephenhope7319]

Thanks Chief. Not anything like most people would think. These vessels are really expensive to build/maintain/operate. So it does make sense for an owner to maximize use by chartering when the owner isn't using. Makes sense for a shipper to charter and not buy if they cannot afford to buy a new vessel. So a bit different from the airlines contention that a plane is only making money when its in the air.

[@hamiltontodd8579]

Thanks Chief, excellent explanation of how ships can be rented. Certainly improved my understanding of the process!

[@1600Z1]

Thanks Chief. As always, this video was great. I feel like I have been all over the world with you, and never left my chair.

[@notyhbynorthwest]

Just signed on to your channel. Very impressed with your knowledge and clarity. My family came from a Merchant Marine background. Well, all except me, so I am looking forward to expanding my understanding of all aspects of the industry. Thank you.

[@David-if9vi]

You have one of the best You Tube channels on shipping. From where you are now! I am on the other side of the World. And I can share the wonderful places that you visit. Kind regards, and greetings from Africa.

[@ChiefMAKOi]

Thanks!

[@nekoroms]

Information you share is really great as we normal land bound humans think ships and shipping like its a totally different world and its really not easy to understand what goes on when you sail all over our planets seas and deliver products to our port cities. Stay safe Chief !

[@dennismoro-p2k]

as always, worth my time. thanks

[@ryteulopki8069]

Amazing angle! I love how you bring random info and explain it in real life terms. Keep going! Cost/time of engine overhaul / major maintenance Cost of crew / training World of insurances... what is must, what is common, how much, why to insure, why not to insure...??? Ship ownership... buying used/new, what is the cost of the owner, what is the cost of operator - this is partially cover in above video but please, would go dive deeper in each scenario? ...I bat you have plenty of ideas ;)

[@svsnmurthy2227]

Good information about shipping trade chief

[@ChiefMAKOi]

Glad it was helpful!

[@gregknipe8772]

every insight you offer into shipping either answers nagging questions, or sheds light on aspects i'd never thought to ask about. thank you chief.

[@johnstreet797]

chief yours is one of about 5 channels I watch and believe. Thank you for what you do.

[@rinrat6754]

Very impressive to see how your channel has become more and more technical and day to day relevant, but in an always interesting way.

[@alexcrouse]

A friend of mine was a sailor. He had a cargo that they delivered to a port. Due to a hangup on the receiving end, they had to sit in that port, loaded, for 19 days. The company paid them a daily storage fee to not just dump the ore in the ocean and sail away. He got leave every other day while they ran a skeleton crew maintaining the ship while waiting for the company to come get their load.

[@j.m.3064]

Very nice video!!!! As a chartering professional my self, can say that there are many sub-categories and conditions on vessel's lease but you gave a good explanation to people who are not familiar with the shipping business. Just a note, been idle at port gor long times, awaiting loading or discharge is never been good on voyage chartering, especially on a "good market". Most of the times, the voyage charters will try to pay only a fraction of the accumulated demurrage or even none of it, making ship owners to seek their looses via legal route which takes time and more money, but on long terms bss voyage chartering is always more profitable than time charter.

[@jeffgolden253]

Thank you, Chief, for this explanation. It seems that the ship owner has the most dependable income stream, but the owner also has the biggest investment. Even that income could stop if the charterer's business fails. Unlike what one commenter said, it does not sound like a Bareboat charter is similar to renting a U-Haul for a household move. When you do that, the U-Haul company has pre-authorized your credit card for a little more than the estimated rental, so they know they will get paid. I don't think anyone is plunking down their American Express card for a cargo ship rental. Bottom line is that, the ship owner is in the best position to get all the earnings expected, but everyone is taking a risk. I guess that's why they have insurance companies. But, that's business.

[@nancyhines5942]

I appreciate your videos. Learning more about how cargo ships operate is very interesting. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort. I look forward to seeing your next video. I learn with each one.

[@andydickey]

Thanks - the economic side of shipping is very interesting.

[@jfchonors8873]

Thanks Chief for an interesting video - not only can you explain the mechanical operation of a ship but the business end of the industry as well

[@hanningtonemwagodi5559]

I have been a big fan of Chief Engineer Makoi for the past few years. I feel like I should be given a Marine Engineering degree now.

[@francismccabe3265]

Ha! Get some sea time, and take the USCG test!

[@ankersman]

Thanks Chief, please go through the procedure, ranks, years, qualifications etc, that goes into becoming a ship's chief engineer.

[@MrTNuke]

Check out his other videos, he kind of explains the process in several of his older videos

[@LawrenceSeetoh]

This is very informative! thank you Chief .

[@gerardjohnson2106]

Thank you for this presentation. Global markets and shipping affect everyone's needs. Your perspective and knowledge of shipping are much appreciated. 👍👍👏👏

[@SA-76234]

Thanks for all the information Cheif.

[@mattc.310]

Thanks for the info, Chief. Very interesting and explains some of what Professor Sal talks about.

[@Duckfarmer27]

Chief - Another interesting video. Explained basic economic aspects I had never considered, thank you. Maybe you covered it in other videos (I know you have covered specific actions) but who is responsible for overall preventive maintenance - I'm guessing there are different levels that might be contractually required depending upon the type of charter and what not. A complex business model. Keep up the good work.

[@keonikaig9247]

Dang Chief , that was a good one ....thank you ..👍🤠

[@billmccormick3926]

Very enjoyable video! Thanks Chief!

[@nvragn]

Hey Chief I'm loving these Saturday morning videos. Keep up the amazing work. I would think that you would be a pleasure to work for. I imagine you are by the book attention to detail kinda guy. When there is work to do you expect it to be done but when things are slow or whatnot you are all for just hanging out and having a good time. Anyway I will definitely keep sending you some doh for you and your guys. My thing with KZbin is entertainment and in this world we pay for it so what makes this any different. See you in the comment section again soon 👍 🇨🇦 🔧

[@ChiefMAKOi]

Thanks! 😊

[@manuelaffonso2191]

Very informative. Well done.

[@harmizallhamid4003]

And thank U to you too for sharing with us, and gain one more knowledge today.... ❤❤❤😊

[@jameshicks914]

Always great information Chief!!

[@patcaci8882]

Hi Chief , Love your podcasts! Been watching you for 3 years now! Keep up the great work!! Just wondering if that is a Chief Makoi slot machine behind you??Pat from Scranton, Pennsylvania US

[@djcwilso]

Hey Chief, I had an excited double take at the video between 0230 - 0240 as know exactly which terminal you were at and if you were on the Strategic T I also know when. Looks like you "left" a bilge cover behind!! Those cranes are no longer in use so you must have been one of the last vessel to be discharged by that 1960's machinery!

[@firstlast1047]

Thanks Chief. I was vaguely aware of the three major charter instruments, but not the specifics I have been following the Dali allision in the port of Baltimore. Insurance carriers having to look at each shipping container's Bill of Lading to determine ownership of the goods and payout. It is not like USPS, FedEx, DHL. If the buyer doesn't receive...no pay.

[@justindavis1546]

You just taught me something new. Thank you.

[@d14551]

Very interesting. You explain things very clearly.

[@dustymiller7758]

Great explanation and fantastic entertainment Chief.

[@gatorguy7711]

Excellent content! I always enjoy your informative videos. Take care and be safe..

[@drockjr]

Chief, we always love your videos

[@SteamingCupofReason]

Still enjoying this channel. I am not a sailor nor have any kind of connection to the industry. I just have a really deep interest in all thing things big that move. Massive container ships fascinate me the most. One question or topic I would love to see a video on is regarding these behemoths of the seas. My question (or video suggestion) is... How often do ships, like those that you sail on, go into drydock? Is there a specific requirement? What role do you and your crew fill in this process? How does it all work? Hope you can cover this for aficionados like me! Thanks.

[@AnmolPrabhakar-wc4rw]

Chief could you please make a video on what are the options after becoming a chief engineer like becoming technical superintendent or charterer and other options. Thank you

[@garlicandchilipreppers8533]

Interesting, answered a lot of questions.

[@danielplainview926]

Great information! Did you see a lot of chartered ships during covid? I heard companies like Home Depot? Coca Cola, and Wal Mart was using this method to get products to fill their demand in the covid years.

[@snidelywhiplash8923]

Thanks for the clear explanation. For the owner of the transport equipment, whether a ship owner or a car rental, if the asset has been hired, they're paid. A day is a day is a day, whether it's moving or not. But what about the charterer, who's hired the vessel and makes money from moving goods from A to B. If the ship is idle awaiting a berth opening, that eats up time that otherwise could be used to transport the next load. One month of waiting in a year could mean losing one or more additional pickups/deliveries. No?

[@sanjayb6995]

Dear Chief, pls do a video on the new scrubber system that the ships are installing .

[@blackbuttecruizr]

Very informative!!!

[@jamesnichols7507]

Chief MAKOi how about a video of how a sailor handles leaving for an extended duty at sea? If you are married with a spouse back at home they will pay the bills, mow the grass, raise the kids, etc. Sure it’s hard on everyone being gone for a long time but at least someone has the watch back home. How do the single saliors handle the extended time at sea when it comes to a personal life back at home? Do they own / lease a Town House, Condo, or Apartment where all the maintenance is taken care of and with the modern day internet you can do all of your bill paying online when not standing watch.

[@barryklinedinst6233]

Thanks for all your videos. Im always amazed by the amount of knowledge you have of your trade .Two questions. What is your favorite port and do you ever haul wheat? And if you do how do you off load it. Thanks and be safe

[@zanesummerfield9600]

Thank you, your presentation was very informative

[@anthonycalia1317]

always informative and interesting. Thank you

[@dannyvc828]

great vid.... and a lot of money is lost when vessel gets detained by Port State Control (hint for an episode) and extensive repairs are needed. Then the ships agent plays a crucial role... If you ever intend to make a vid about our business and connection to the vessel/owners/charterers/suppliers then let me know - If you call Antwerp or Ghent soon then let's meet up - krgds Promar Agencies Belgium -

[@lilo7019]

😎Thank you very much for sharing another great great trip take care All the best😎

[@dereksellars]

Thanks Chief, that was very informative. Looking forward to more. Hurry Up! LOL JK

[@kennethward9530]

Most of the Great Lakes bulk freighters (US Great Lakes) have self unloading conveyor systems because loading/unloading is a higher proportion of time versus transit time, which constitutes much of ocean going freighters. I am surprised there isn’t a market for regional bulk freighters where a similar self unloading system wouldn’t make economic sense.

[@davetaylor4741]

Wow that is interesting. Sounds like the owners are pretty covered. Except in recession. The knock on effect of long delays is still likely to affect the hirer. And those waiting for the cargo. And possibly many other links in the chain. Manufacturing down time. Because a component is missing. In the end there are always costly consequences for someone. The thing I notice with bulk carriers particularly is loading and unloading times. Some places you go to this takes ages. Effectively using a tea spoon. Filling a bucket of water one drip at a time. It reminds me of the arcade game with the claw. Trying to snag a toy that nearly always drops last minute. These huge bulk carriers have been around for years. How come we haven't improved on loading and unloading them with a bucket on a chain.

[@montyollie]

I would love to hear more about what happened after the Ever Given fiasco. Did anyone have to pay? Who was ultimately held responsible? How badly did that effect the world economy?

[@pamelaarescurrinaga8201]

Interesting video - thank you.

[@chrissmith6133]

Thank you chief, good video.👍😎👍

[@edshelden7590]

Great story. very well explained. Thank You. Possible story. How many months supplies does a ship carry for a voyage? How many months. Food, expendables TO?? What kind of company supplies ships and how do they source the food?

[@edshelden7590]

I do not understand telegram ?

[@OhSoCheesy]

This was very enlightening. Thank you! You said they scrapped the ships after sitting there because the company went under. Why wouldn't they just sell the ship to try to recover some money or did the ships deteriorate too much sitting there that long? Thanks!

[@TheDaf95xf]

Stay safe Chief 👍🏻

[@rvdvoorden]

Hi chief we did somevbunkering whit you in Rotterdam

[@ChiefMAKOi]

It's been a while since I was there last.

[@rvdvoorden]

@@ChiefMAKOi correct i think its about 3or4 years back it was in de beneluxhaven

[@thedude2178]

Excellent as ever

[@timtrain35]

Thanks for the video. Does the type of charter have an impact on whether or not crew members decide on a particular contract?

[@torgeirbrandsnes1916]

Great vlog as always! Is voyage… the new term for Tramp? Who will pick up the tab for the mess in Baltimore? New bridge, ship, crew and cargo. Mamma Mia! Keep up the good work. Be safe!

[@keithrosenberg5486]

Very well done! I am guessing that the Baltimore Key bridge event is going to be the fault of the owner/crew.

[@bladewiper]

Main engine lube oil. Is it replaced or replenished as needed ? What type of filtering is used ? Might make for a interesting video. Thanks.

[@CubbyTech]

I was hoping you were going to tell us about a real world example - like when you were waiting for some time to discharge your cargo.

[@santamanone]

You mentioned legal claims that might arise. That begs the question of what court has jurisdiction to hear those claims? The courts where the contract was signed? The courts in the country where the ship’s registered? The country where the ship is when the claim arises? Or perhaps elsewhere?

[@lukahierl9857]

I dont know anything about ship chartering, but usualy the court is specified in the contract.

[@MrPeterschmit]

Hey Chief, just found your channel. Could you please do a video about siu, nmu, mmp, and any other unions? I was a seaman for a while in the 80s and I'm curious about the whole situation. I don't even know if siu even still exists

[@whiskey5jda]

Very Informative. Ty

[@atsekoutsoube]

Excellent

[@fountainvalley100]

I would imagine that the contracts have all the rates listed. One rate for while at sea. A different rate for in port transferring cargo (or waiting to transfer). A third rate when the ship is out of service due to mechanical problems.

[@duran9664]

I suggest u start ur videos with ship horn. The famous annoying one. 😊

[@ohasis8331]

That was so absorbing that the video seemed to be ending even as it was starting.

[@wickedcabinboy]

Maybe you could address the status of the Dali in light of each of the forms of chartering.

[@derryneathhoman-james1434]

Presumably there is also the maintenance benefit? In a few of your videos you take advantage of those down-time periods at anchor or at port to do those jobs that can only be done when equipment is able to be shut down or just aren't suitable to do at sea. If you didn't have these 'lucky' pieces of waiting time you would have to take the ship off-hire for a couple of weeks a year to do them at port?

[@primus108]

I very much enjoy your videos. You explain complex things very well. Please explain why your name is in all upper case letters except the "i" at the end which is in lower case. Also, how is your name pronounced?

[@tsuchan]

Thanks, that's interesting. Although it mostly just transfers the question from the ship owner to the leaser. I got the bit about temporary storage, but $10,000-$30,000 per day (potentially plus port charges is some super-expensive storage. How do they stay in business while haemorrhaging this amount of money?

[@Garth2011]

Interesting...up to $900,000 per month ! Plus fuel, crew, maintenance, port fees etc. Makes you wonder how much the profit margins are to the lessor.

[@andydelarue9344]

Thanks for that , now how much and how long. To build , to sail and to scrap

[@christopherleblanc9599]

do the bulkers ever get used as temporary dry storage , i have a road transport logistic back ground and we often would lease out trailers to customers for temporary extra storage during high volume seasons or temporary construction Renovations of existing logistic facility's it was cheaper and more convent then renting or building that extra capacity into their businesses because often their land foot print meant they would have to road haul that product off site at a very high handling and transporting cost ,rather then simply a employee with a fork lift or shunted at their existing site could get at product in temporary storage with ease and at a very reduced cost for both handling and transporting it when required , im thinking , bulk cement , ect, that must remain dry but the port or consignee lack enough storage too except the full shipment in one discharge cycle say large scale construction infrastructure for cement where they would not normal;y order in that volume thus lack the necessary infrastructure too except full shipment , but would do so over say a month /season of the mega construction project , would this be a bulk rate per day of use /plus the inital loading and voyage to consignee port ?

[@Lost-In-Blank]

Also, in many jurisdictions, if you build a storage building you pay property taxes on it. If you use a parked trailer for storage -- no property tax. And here that is true even if that trailer stays there for years and years and never moves. In my part of Canada, a lot of old trailers end their lives as long term storage.

[@Trains-With-Shane]

Chief, How, if at all, is shipboard I.T. stuff handled? Like if crew members need help with their laptops, phones, media devices, etc? Is there somebody on ship or does it typically wait till they are in port?

[@dennis2376]

Thank you.

[@HesderOleh]

If there is a time charter, the company paying for the boat chooses the route, but the owner pays the insurance. How does that work with differing insurance rates for different routes based on risk?

[@RobertPDeMott]

very intersting