Christian, gay and celibate (or not)? with David Bennett, Taylor Telford & Billy Hallowell

[@PremierUnbelievable]

David tells his full story in this memoir War of Loves www.amazon.co.uk/War-Loves-Bennett-David/dp/0310538106/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1699639659&sr=8-1

[@martinploughboy988]

It's very simple, there are no gay Christians. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (I Corinthians 6:9-11) If there are gay Christians then there also must be sexually immoral Christians, idolatrous Christians, adulterous Christians, Christians who are thieves, greedy Christians, drunkard Christians, Christians who are revilers, swindling Christians.

[@coffeefrog]

I'm going to cry. (*Edit: I am crying!) This must be the most heartwarming video I've ever seen. These two are wiser, kinder, and more honest than most people I know. I want everyone to see this. The answer is to love and respect those who disagree with you so that we may learn from each other and support each other. This is what true goodness looks like. Of course it's hard to maintain a friendship like that--nothing good comes easily. It's this kind of love and honesty that will heal the world. David said he sometimes wonders whether he's doing something wrong, and I see why, but in light of his difficult sacrifice and how loving and humble he is, I think anyone would commend him for doing his very best, especially God. It's not sinful to be confused--he's being honest with himself. I'm not Christian myself, but I hold similar sentiments. I've seldom heard them shared by another person. I can only hope to express my good will as eloquently as these two. Thanks to everyone involved for sharing this discussion. I, for one, am inspired.

[@martinploughboy988]

They are disagreeing with God

[@coffeefrog]

@@martinploughboy988 Only as you have interpreted God.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@coffeefrog As God has clearly stated in His word. It's very simple, God calls homosexuality an abomination & says that those who practice such things cannot enter His kingdom.

[@terryknight5869]

All of these people are ridiculous and ignorant, especially Taylor.

[@TrevonFoxxx]

How is someone denying their humanity inspiring especially when tethered to a baseless theological claim like Christianity?

[@dannorris8478]

The whole video is a lesson on how to turn black and white into grey. Total nonsense and a vivid picture of how “theologians” distort scripture with God talk.

[@ritawing1064]

It hasn't finished yet!

[@dannorris8478]

@@ritawing1064 Couldn’t take it no more had to go wretch in my God talk bucket.

[@jefft5795]

David why would you ever want to put someone in the full fury of God. Both of you will face hell fire for distorting the truth Satan is using u both turn and repent n make Jesus the Lord of your life. This is demonic what your both doing

[@KellyEngstrom]

Really appreciate this discussion, thank you. The humble and loving demeanor of the two guests are commendable, something I aspire to emulate.

[@martinploughboy988]

But they had nothing of Christ in it.

[@yes2112Sawyer]

Dallas Willard once said that the first act of love is always the giving of attention. I am disappointed that some of my brothers and sisters in the comments here seem to suggest this isn’t even worth your attention. I’ll admit Dr Telford and I have areas where our theological perspectives diverge. However when I heard her articulate the gospel it was clear to me this is a woman who has studied the Bible deeply and I would be hard pressed to call someone who believes what she does to be anything but my sister in Christ.

[@andrewjchamberlain]

This is a great conversation, I feel like lots of people should listen to the content AND note the intentionality of David and Taylor to make the effort to reach out in friendship. There's no compromise of doctrine here, but there is love and there is compassion. I'd encourage fellow traditional Christians (side B's in the parlence of this podcast) not to be afraid to listen to and reflect on the Spirit in this conversation.

[@rimanm6934]

Problem is people push selfish desires above God. Those who try shoohorne homsexuality as norm act from selfish desires. What we can talk about their spiritual life, if they cant even sacrfice so little: sexual life. In our time and era with so many enterteiment and porn even though it sin aswell, I doubt it even problem for people be celibate 30% american males are virigns who never kissed woman. And they arent even that religious. All these talks about acceptance and other crap smell like gnostic heresy through and through. Original Christian doctrines even from heterosexuals demand celibacy. Whole Christian religion based around celibacy, selfrestrained as way to reach sainthood That why so many monks and nuns at early time christians. Theese people beleive that through selfretraint and celibacy they can become saints. What people beleive now? That you need be happy? Like really? Since when been happy was even Christian doctrine to begin with Three main Christian ideas: 1. Slavation 2. Divinisation 3. Cocreation with God Protestant only focu on Slavation telling you just need Love God and that would be enough. Salvation basicaly admiting Jesus is God and worship him. But that not enough Forgeting Divinisation and Cocreation with God. Divinsatioin is person try become saint and do as hard a she can to be as perfect as he can. It hard path based on sacrfice for path to perfection. Because since man is Image of God. Be saint is perfect form of worship of God, since we try be perfect image of creator. Co Creation with God is imitating God through crativity and improving things which lead finding more way to worship God. If you gay than you should believe only way to sianthood is through celibacy. It have zero problem for milion straight male to be celibate even without religiosu cause. Cause like I said in our time sex become so outdated most people dont have even time for it cause so many diferent new forms of enterteiment. It not even thayt big sacrfice it used to be. But if you religious man refuse have gay sex is not something that hard to do. So all this talks complete bulshit. Rejecting your desires for Greater Divine Will is small price. But if people start talking that Chsriatinity is about been happy it mean they lost faith and just keep going with Christianity as cultural way not cause they actually beleive And if you dont believe there is no need be christian than and try change christinaity to fit your new selfish worldview. Because it clearly selfishness if small group of people trieng change doctrine which follow bilions of people it nothing more than selfisnhess where they put personal happines above whole popualtion. I am not even talking about sacrifce as worshipoing to God. So these poeple dotn care nor for God nor for other people but only themself

[@45s262]

57:43 David's testimony about Christ's condescension was amazing.. Holy cow David that was amazing.. I'm going to memorize your words

[@martinploughboy988]

You'd do better to read the Bible.

[@45s262]

@@martinploughboy988 We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. - Paul the Apostle Frankly, David's testimony of the condescension of God's Son spoke to my spirit and I know his testimony is true..

[@ElvisI97]

@@martinploughboy988as we all would.

[@meganchristinadunn]

Did you listen to the whole podcast? I had to listen carefully, but I didn’t hear David compromising on the historical church’s stance on this issue.

[@martinploughboy988]

To say you are gay is to compromise, indeed it is to abandon what the Bible says.

[@user-vg2lk6yr1z]

It’s easy to see here that Satan’s question to Eve “did God really say?” Is in widespread use even today. So clever. Satan was a post modernist afterall. God clearly condemns as sin(a violation of his purpose and design)all sexual sins. In the garden God created man and woman and marriage. Agree with God. It will save an eternity of grief.

[@paddycoyle6840]

We need to pray for David and Taylor that God will remove their spiritual blindness.

[@jimgrossman5367]

Homosexual behavior is a sin. It's not a Romans 14 issue And in Romans 14 Paul outlines what is the right answer. That it is okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols. There was a right answer. And scripture elsewhere, even specifically Romans chapter 1, outlines the behavior of exchanging natural relations for unnatural relations as sinful. So you really do not get to use chapter 14 to call homosexual behavior a debatable issue that we should be cautious to not be a stumbling block for when in Romans 1 it was clearly outlined as a non-debatable issue. Should we allow those who profess the gospel yet who say they struggle with feelings of homosexuality to be called our brothers? Sure What if they struggle with sinning in a homosexual behavior? How is that any different from someone who struggles with a heterosexual sin behavior? It's probably not But the clinch pin for the deciding piece of why or how it would be different, is if that brother in the heterosexual sin said that their sin was acceptable because they felt like they wanted to do it. Then we would tell him no you're clearly living in sin contrary to the word. So if the homosexual brother says that their sinful behavior is right and God approved, then no. And double no if they try and use Romans 14 to justify it.

[@DIBBY40]

Nonsense. Why do people not see that comparing heterosexual misdemeanors with homosexuality is ridiculous? Every major psychiatric and psychological body has stated that homosexuality is NOT a pathology.

[@jimgrossman5367]

@@DIBBY40 what every major psychiatric and psychological body has stated is not the standard for truth. God's word is not nonsense. And it's what the speakers were claiming to hold to, was Christianity, and thus God's word. Specifically Romans 14 was mentioned. And that is the context of my reply. Homosexual relations are defined by Romans 1 as unnatural. That's God's word. And that's the standard for truth. Not what psychiatrists and psychologists say. And not all of the profession agree with those bodies btw But none of that is to say that I said homosexual behavior is a pathology. I didn't say it was a psychological disorder. I said the behavior is a sin. As defined by the holy scripture, God's word. God's word also defines heterosexual sins and ways that men and women sin sexually that are not homosexual. So I said both the homosexual act is sin, and the heterosexual sexual sins are sin. And so the clinch pin is if we are going to identify those sins as ok by God. If we do, we are wrong. If we use scripture to do so, then we are doubly wrong.

[@martinploughboy988]

@@DIBBY40 Homosexuality is a behaviour, one that God has condemned. Psychiatry & psychology don't enter into it.

[@DIBBY40]

@@martinploughboy988 Has ignorance now become a Christian virtue?

[@martinploughboy988]

@@DIBBY40 The ignorance is in the pseudo science.

[@SimpleHistoryUK]

Homosexual behavior is clearly sinful according to the Bible. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul lists homosexuality alongside other sins like idolatry, theft, and drunkenness as things that will prevent someone from inheriting the kingdom of God. He then goes on to say in verse 11 that some of the Corinthian Christians used to practice homosexuality but were redeemed from it by the power of Christ. Jesus calls all Christians to deny themselves, resist temptation, and follow him down the narrow path of obedience that leads to life (Luke 9:23, Matthew 7:14). Although celibacy may seem unnatural and difficult, submitting our desires to God's will is the only way to freedom from sin. I care about the eternal destiny of homosexuals, which is why I cannot compromise on what Scripture teaches. Homosexual behavior is sinful and must be avoided by those seeking salvation through Christ. With the Holy Spirit's help, Christians can overcome any temptation - including homosexuality - if they choose to submit to God rather than their own desires (1 Cor 10:13). God loves all people, but He does not accept everything they do as good. We must honor God by resisting sinful desires, even when it's extremely difficult.

[@jenisebrooks4308]

I agree and honestly plenty of unscriptural remarried Christians should join homosexuals in the difficulty of being celibate. So many remarry not knowing that God doesn't recognize it just as he doesn't recognize same gender marriages. More needs to be said about that in Christian circles instead of compromising and allowing by stating oh the couple wasn't aware and be given a pass like it's ok.

[@jenisebrooks4308]

And if they remain together as a family as Christians they should be refraining from sex as it would be sexual immorality if the remarriage is unscriptural.

[@emelikeedghill]

appreciate the discussion.. "wrestle in the tension" - a charge to all believers to engage under the leading of the Holy Spirit..

[@adecox6016]

I saw David at Spring Harvest. I went with my own presuppositions and his testimony really helped me see the truth of God's word. Bless you

[@martinploughboy988]

Says everything about Spring Harvest.

[@mr.c2485]

“God is not the author of confusion”. Whoever wrote that is obviously disillusioned contextually or otherwise.

[@alangiaconelli2919]

Belief and faith hinges solely and only on what God said. So the statement “ did god say” and the reasoning developed from that was the very thing to cause the fall. So you who reasons Beware.

[@Koerfy]

I aspire to Dr. Telford's wisdom, empathy and patience.

[@sophielesher8002]

I don’t doubt that Taylor is a smart girl, but here she just sounds like her theology is based on the culture around her. She admitted that her conservative are bringing caused her to live a certain lifestyle (celibate and closed off to homosexuality) and then as soon as she got into a different environment (more affirming), she changed her lifestyle and lived openly gay. She just happen to like one viewpoint more than another and stuck around that culture

[@kaykwanu]

This is so beautiful!

[@45s262]

Marriage isn't essential to being human? Where does it say that in the Bible? And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. The law of eternal marriage and to multiply and replenish the earth is still in effect today.. Those who are not bound by this law, theirs will have an end and they shall be as the angels of heaven. Her example and mine are simply the distinction between marriages sealed by priesthood keys and earthly marriages and unions and bonds that are not..

[@jenisebrooks4308]

It's not the only way to live as expressed by Jesus.

[@candoraudio3159]

Does using the term "gay Christian" carry the same connotations as using phrases like "Gluttonous Christian" or "pedophile Christian"?

[@45s262]

No. You can be gay and still live the law of chastity. Case in point, David

[@iainrae6159]

As a sceptic of religious supernatural 'truth' claims why historicaly have religious priests and clerics had a distaste and fear of human sexuality,female menstruation and shared love between people.

[@billyg898]

Perhaps there is a very recent and new distaste of sexuality, but historically that isn't the case. The history has often seen it as on par with human rationality, one of the most beautiful gifts we have been given. Without going in to too much detail, sex as the pro-creative act is recognized as the act that is most like God's act, because it is fundamentally directed toward the good of others, namely your spouse and the child conceived. A fundamentally charitable act. For that reason, misuse of the procreative act is seen as especially degrading to yourself. It's like promising to give some money to help others, then choosing to spend it on yourself. It's not human sexuality that is distasted, but the misuse of it, like the misuse of charity. But also, they recognize that sexual pleasure is the most intense natural pleasure we can experience, and so the urge to misuse it is so strong and so easy to fall in to. They recognized that serious sins tend to lead in to other sins, as well as a serious failure to be even able to recognize sin at all. Sex, being so intense, is the one that can morally blind us, as well as those we might victimize with it, in other areas very easily, and so we have to be careful to guard our sexuality. I'm sure you would agree that sexual abuse isn't just like other forms of abuse. The impact on the victim, as well as the perpetrator is quite unique. If you think about, they have a point, even if you don't grant everything they might say. I'd say our modern society is evidence of what a sexually unguarded culture results in. We live in the most materially prosperous time in all of human history so far, and yet our moral confusion and degradation is so pervasive.

[@iainrae6159]

@@billyg898 Thankyou for your thoughtful and considered comment.

[@khar12d8]

It's a lot more complex than that. For a start, many of the sexual practices that Jews, and then Muslims and Christians, opposed even liberal secular people would opposed now. So in the Roman Empire rape was completely legal. A Roman citizen could rape his slaves or a non Roman citizen. So when early Christians seem uncomfortable about Roman sexual practices this is the sort of thing they are uncomfortable with. The idea of male female equality and women proudly being able to express themselves sexually was not a thing at all in the ancient world pre Christianity. The pagan Romans were highly conservative about sex. Yes, a Roman could rape who he wanted. But respectable women had to be chaste. A lot of Christian norms about the superiority of men over women and conservative views of sex actually come from the Romans pre Christianity. In fact, Christianity was arguably quite pro women because it told men raping was wrong and against God. The pagan Romans had no issue with rape as long as the right people were being raped. Arguably Christianity and then Islam by extension was influenced by Greek philosophy, such as Stoicism, that prized self discipline and had a generally negative view of sex in general because it represented the animal spirit triumphing over your rational mind. Unfortunately, many Christians today are just traditionalists i.e. they think gay sex is a sin because that's the way it's been traditionally thought of. However, Christianity is a religion of constant reform from day one. And if you understand modern medical science then you know homosexuality is not just about being lustful, it's an innate part of someone. So gay sex in a loving, caring relationship I would argue can be perfectly Christian. But unfortunately some people follow scripture in a very literal way rather than taking the broad principles and taking into account God given scientific knowledge and enquiry.

[@iainrae6159]

@@khar12d8 Thankyou for your informed and articulate comment, much appreciated.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

One thing must be understood, you cannot put the lgbtq plus people in one basket as though it is one happy family, and that is one problem, if someone asked me do I accept the lgbtq plus community I can't not as a group, because I don't believe in transgender, that a man can become a woman or a woman can become a man, there are many gay and lesbian people who do not believe in transgender also,, so these people are separated from the transgenders, so the lgbtq plus community do not accept each other, you may find there are more factions within this group, I being a Christ Believer could argue the support of the Gay and Lesbian community and perhaps some of the other letters, but I cannot support the transgender,

[@billyg898]

Transgenderism is simply just what this confusion about sex eventually leads too though. It's the inevitable outcome. If sex has no purpose related to life-giving love, then sex just becomes another activity. Thus, you get people using it completely separate from life-giving love, which is what contraception, then porn, then homosexual acts comes from. If you accept all of that, then you shouldn't have any problem with incest either, because sex has nothing to do with procreation or being life-giving, right? But, from there, what fundamentally distinguishes the sexes (that one impregnates the other, and one is impregnated) is gone too because sex is seen to have nothing to do with being life-giving. Thus, being a woman or man is completely disconnected from sex and the roles it generates. Thus, a woman can't be related to having a uterus or producing eggs, which is for conceiving and carrying a fetus, and a man can't be related to having a penis and producing sperm, which is for impregnating. So, either we return to sex as being for life-giving love, or we go the other way and conclude that being a man or woman isn't related to sex at all. Of course, I'd say go back to life-giving love, sitting in the middle-ground seems like an unstable position.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

@@billyg898 if you have sex just to produce a child, then when the child is produced that is the woman is impregnated, then sexual activity must cease anything else has to do with sexual pleasure, there are many married heterosexuals who have sexual relations out of sexual pleasure, so even if you use natural contraception that is having sex with a woman where the potential of pregnancy is very low, then you do this out of sexual pleasure, does one simply accepts this because one is using a natural contraceptive, so with what you are saying, we must remove sexual pleasure completely because the only purpose of sexual relations is to produce a child, once this occurs sex has to cease because one does not seek to have sexual relations by the power of pleasure.

[@billyg898]

@@TempleofChristMinistries Thanks for the response. This is a common objection, but it is a misunderstanding. People can do things for all sorts of reasons, but there is a reason why we are the kinds of beings capable of doing certain things. It's not that you have to do it for the reason we are capable of doing it, but you can't do it while actively thwarting that reason. For example, someone can eat(digest is more correct but we can stick with eating) for all sorts of reasons. It could be to quell the feeling of hunger, it could be for a social occasion, it could be just a craving, or whatever the reason might be. BUT, we know what eating is for, and it is for nutrition. Just because you have met your nutritional goal through eating doesn't mean you have to stop eating. But, if you eat in a way that thwarts the nutritive aspect, we rightly recognize such people as having eating disorders. Whether you eat way to much, or throw-up your food to avoid the digestive process, or desire to ingest something hazardous or something, it goes against the nutritive end. Another example is communication, which is to convey the truth. You can talk (or write or do sign-language or whatever) for all sorts of reasons. It could be to tell a story, give instructions, express your opinion or explain your reasoning on KZbin :P, etc. BUT, we know that going against the conveying of truth by lying is disordered. People with a desire to lie have a disorder. If you believe something to be true that isn't, and you communicate it, you are simply mistaken. That isn't lying. It's not disordered because you are using the communicative faculties toward it's proper end, but some external factor has caused it not be achieved. Similarly, you can have sex for all sorts of reasons, such as pleasure, procreation, intimacy, to unite with your spouse, etc. Just because you have sex at a time in the ovulation cycle when a woman may not be able to conceive, it's not actively thwarting the procreative end. You are still using your procreative faculties in their proper way, but some external factor may cause the end to not be achieved. That's the difference. You don't have to be thinking "make a baby, make a baby, procreate, procreate" while having sex. It not about having to guarantee the end is achieved, but simply not to actively thwart the end being achieved. This is why masturbation, contraception, the pull-out method, etc are all problematic but natural family planning isn't. PS: I'd also say that uniting the spouses is a natural end as well. Both it and procreation must not be thwarted.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

@@billyg898 what you believe is if we produce what we are designed for then we do what is right, if we go against this design then it is a disorder, you say speaking the truth is order and to lie is disorder yet, in the time of the occupation that is the Nazis if you lie to them to save life this is disorder yet if you tell the truth which will bring forth murder this is order, that is to protect the Jews, so out of disorder comes order and out of order come disorder, should I write a fictitious book and therefore it is a lie now it is disordered, in the beginning man will leave his father and mother and find a wife they shall become one flash and be fruitful and multiply and this is the order of things, yet now you tell me Christ is a disordered man because he did none of these things, yet I know those who masturbate who are more righteous than those who do not, I know those who use contraception who are more righteous than those who do not, and I know homosexuals who are more righteous than heterosexuals, two people in the Old Testament lied and God considered this as faithful and righteous because it's saved life. Intentionally using natural conception is simply having sex at a certain time of the woman's cycle where pregnancy is less likely is the pursuit of sexual pleasure. Righteousness is judged Beyond the simple order of things.

[@IndyB23]

Curious atheist here, with an honest question: what's wrong with homosexuality?

[@ritawing1064]

Well, it's not a godly answer, but a reading of Nissinen's "Homoeroticism in the Bibical Age" and Francesca Stavrokoupoulu's " God: an Anatomy" (for examples) leads one to the conclusion that this condemnation began in the need to reproduce numbers for the tribe, where women's place was, symbolically and literally, "under" the fertile, rained-down sperm. Thus confusing the all-important societal roles of penetrator and penetratee to no reproductive end was held by many (not all) ancient societies to be anarchistic and socially damaging. From there to bringing in the stamp of a god's command in order to enforce the ban was an easy step.

[@wet-read]

Some people think it's icky. Rather than just say that, they say some cosmic overlord disapproves of it instead.

[@billyg898]

Depends on what you mean by homosexuality. Some people mean the state of being attracted to the same sex. In that case, there is nothing wrong morally there. We would say such a person has a disordered attraction, but it's not wrong to have such attractions. The aim would be to help someone in such a situation if we can. What is right or wrong is about actions, freely chosen actions. If you mean the act of using your sexual faculties with someone of the same sex, that is wrong morally. Someone can have a deeply ingrained and overwhelming desire to steal, like a kleptomaniac, but having that desire isn't wrong. Acting on that desire is what is wrong. The actions are wrong because the natural end of sex is procreation (and unity), and the use of your sexual faculty in non-procreative acts is to actively thwart the natural end of sex. This is also why using contraceptives is wrong, why masturbation is wrong. They all use what is naturally procreative in deliberately non-procreative ways. A common objection is, "well, what about people who can no longer have children, or when a woman is outside her ovulation period? Can they not have sex then?" While this is a common objection, it misunderstands things. The procreative end doesn't have to complete, but you mustn't be actively thwarting it. An analogy is like lying. Communication has the natural end of conveying truth, but if you actively thwart that end, by intentionally conveying falsehoods in order to deceive, it is wrong. Another example is eating. The digestive faculty exists for the natural end of gaining nutrition. It wouldn't matter how much someone loves consuming lethal amounts of oven cleaner, you may not think it is wrong, but I assume you would rightly agree that such a person has some kind of disorder. Or, if there is someone who throws up their perfectly healthy and nutritious food to avoid the digestive process, we recognize has an eating disorder. Now, you might say "Well, eating disorders cause physical health problems", and sure that is the case with eating disorders, but not all disorders are associated with physical health problems. We don't respect consent because failing to do so causes physical health problems. We do it because we rightly recognize that people have dignity, and it is wrong to treat a person as if he/she is not a person. Someone who doesn't grasp the concept of consent has a disorder as well, it would be wrong to violate consent, even if there is no physical health problems associated with it. Dis-order presupposes there is a proper order but it hasn't been realized. But, that's a somewhat long explanation.

[@IndyB23]

@@billyg898 Interesting take - I don't believe that the intrinsic natural end of sex is procreation. Because I don't believe in a creator god that designed sex for a purpose, I don't believe it can be misused for a different purpose (note that I obviously believe sexual abuse etc. is wrong, but the wrongness comes from the harm it causes people, not the idea that sex is only for one specific thing). Evolution has imbued us with sexual urges, with which we do what we will: we procreate if that's what we want, we express love for each other if that's what we want, we hurt each other if that's what we want. Just the same as with any other behaviour trait that evolution has given us: the natural end of anger may be physical violence, for example, but we often make a choice to thwart *that* end, and a good thing too! It's also well worth bearing in mind that homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomenon, both in our species and in others in the animal kingdom. It's not artificial - it's natural, and it has a natural end. It's just that the natural end of homosexual sex is not procreation. The problem, it seems to me, is that you're defining the natural end of *all* sex as procreation, but that's simply not the case: that's only the natural end of heterosexual sex. I understand that you're defining it that way because homosexuality is the anomaly, which you call a disorder, but there's no reason to treat it as a disorder (even if we used "disorder" as a descriptive term for it, there's nothing objectively disordered about it - we define disorders according to the harm they cause, and the harm of homosexuality hasn't been demonstrated here).

[@ritawing1064]

@@billyg898 The real conundrum is why some humans reject sexual behaviour with an entire gender, rather than querying to whom they are attracted. Our near cousins the bonobos give and receive pleasure from each other regardless of gender categories: it is simply a matter of having evolved in a non-competitive situation.

[@mr.c2485]

I thought our identities were not found in this life but in the afterlife. According to the Bible, we are but a “vapor” and this life is but a stepping stone. Why give weight/identity to anything that we involve ourselves with in this life? Our treasures are stored up on the other side…right?

[@konroh2]

This life is temporary, but what we do in this life echoes in eternity.

[@Miruna228]

So sad that I used to promote this channel.. This is the result of the people trying to change the Scripture in such a way just to approve their sinful lives.. but the Word remains the same. Today’s “Christians” are no longer looking for the Scripture to teach them the holiness in which they are supposed to walk and to discipline but just to comfort them and widening the Way.. “18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.” Revelation 22:18,19

[@bigol7169]

A literal reading of passages regarding same sex relations is no more defensible than a literal reading of passages regarding slavery. One cannot be 'the word is the word', and the other 'but you're taking it out of context!'

[@toluwanifemi6722]

The Bible is very clear about Sexual relationship though.

[@alexnorth3393]

Thankfully it's nonsense.

[@Jopasd]

Sounds like you didn't watch the video 😮

[@rubykrueger2297]

Isn’t the point of this channel to allow those conversations? If everyone agreed, this wouldn’t exist.

[@WildGrowthJ]

Well, time to unsubscribe.

[@user-uo3vn7tv4b]

A beautiful example of what we need more of in this world as we evolve spiritually and culturally. Love one another as I have loved you. Thank you.

[@martinploughboy988]

Except there is no real love between them.

[@kk440635NORWAY]

I know English. But sometimes I use Google Translate for certain things that are complicated. I don't know if this is a correct translation, but in the Bible it says in Norwegian "you shall not lie with a man as you lie with a woman". Not sure if it says exactly the same spelling in English What is sex? What is the original definition of sex? There are only two types of sex. So vaginal intercourse and anal intercourse. The word "oral sex" contains the word "sex", but it is a relatively new word, originally it was called something from Greek which, directly translated into Norwegian, is called "oral satisfaction" (I don't know exactly how it translates into English). I agree that children need a mother and a father, so in that way I think we are created for man and woman, when it comes to making a family I believe and have read that anal intercourse is seen as impure in the Bible, for both women and men. So the only way a man can sleep with a man as he sleeps with a woman is intercourse in an anal way. Masturbation is not sex, oral sex is not sex (even if it contains the word "sex"). I can't think of anything nastier than anal sex, imagine having a penis inside a gut, it can't be more disgusting Rape doesn't just apply to sex, I think it also applies to sexual harassment. If you touch private parts against the other person's consent or on minors, you should absolutely be punished. In Norway, unfortunately, rape is usually dismissed in the judicial system, and those who receive punishment, unfortunately, receive a reduced sentence if it is "only" about oral and masturbation because they are sentenced for "sexual harassment" and not for rape. There are also divided opinions among Christians about sex before marriage. Some believe that it is intercourse before marriage that is sinful, because that is all that is sex. While others believe that all kinds of sexual events before marriage are a sin. The phenomenon of "lexicon" is several thousand years old, definitions and statistics are nothing new. And sex has never, not now or several thousand years ago, had any other definition than intercourse. There is a difference between the word "sex" and "sexual". Adultery is more than just sex, and more than just sexual activity. Kissing is not erotic, but romantic, and if you are with one person and kiss another person then you are unfaithful, if you hold hands with a person in a romantic way while you are with another person, then you are unfaithful. In Norway, the sexual minimum age is 16. But two people of the same age (for example, two 14-year-olds or two 12-year-olds) consensually masturbating together or having oral sex together is not prohibited, why not? Because it is NOT sex! But it is forbidden for someone aged 16 to do this with someone under the age of 16, and that is of course a good ban I am homosexual. I was with a man before, a man the same age as me. Unfortunately it ended, but I will probably find a new boyfriend eventually. We never had anal sex, we never had vaginal sex either (because it's not physically possible😅), so I've never slept with a man like with a woman. We did various erotic things (but I won't say what we did), but I can say as mentioned that we NEVER had anal sex. Therefore we are both virgins. I actually took part in an anonymous statistics survey recently. It was about sexuality, one of the questions was whether I had made a sexual debut, in parentheses on the form it said (tick "yes" if you and your partner have had intercourse, all other sexual activity is not considered a sexual debut, if you have not have had sexual intercourse, the answer to the question is "no") I have no intention of getting married, I have no intention of going to the Pride parade, I have no intention of adopting. I live without sex, because I never have intercourse. That's why I don't live with a man like a woman lives with a man, I fall completely outside that category. The Bible does not go into detail. The Bible talks about sex, and then you have to look up the encyclopedia to find out what the word "sex" means by definition, and then I think of the very oldest definitions, these definitions that were written in the same time period as the Bible was written. If I live in a relationship with only oral satisfaction and masturbation together with my boyfriend, I live without SEX

[@45s262]

If Peter was given the keys that whatsoever he should bind on earth would also be bound in heaven... then if Peter through these priesthood keys bound a man and woman in marriage would they also be bound in heaven? Christ did say whatsoever, then why not use these keys to do what God did in the beginning? Sister, sister.. smh sister.. you are mistaken

[@alexnorth3393]

Please just disregard this abject horror of thinking that being gay or bi is somehow wrong in any way. It's incredibly backward.

[@martinploughboy988]

God says that such a thing is an abomination. Are you saying God is backward?

[@TrevonFoxxx]

@@martinploughboy988well he doesn’t exist but the people who wrote the character definitely made him incredibly backwards

[@martinploughboy988]

@@TrevonFoxxx As you know, God exists.

[@Fair-to-Middling]

I have to add that celibacy within the church has never turned out well (think priests). I'm not saying this will make gay people turn to the dark side. It's just unnatural. My son is gay and was celibate within the church (and elsewhere), but that was not a sustainable position. He needed a relationship with another (he is not a clubber, believe me!). I see him as happier with himself now and more accepting of himself. As a side note, if I hear the phrase, 'Hate the sin, love the sinner', I will scream. 😠

[@SimpleHistoryUK]

I get that celibacy is hard. But Jesus said "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me" (Luke 9:23). We all have to deny sinful desires to follow Jesus. The Bible clearly says homosexuality is wrong. "Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). In fact, Paul says some of the Corinthian Christians used to practice homosexuality but were redeemed from that lifestyle. As he continues in 1 Corinthians 6:11 - "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." I know your son feels happy now, but I believe obeying Christ leads to greater joy. I care about your son's salvation. I hope he can resist temptation and commit to celibacy for the sake of following Jesus. It's not easy, but it's the only path to heaven. "For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matthew 7:14). My prayers are with you both. God promises to give us strength to resist sin if we trust in Him. "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).

[@Nicole-kc1vx]

Why do you view it unnatural? What about people who don't desire intimacy? Are they unnatural? Relationships don't require intimacy, there is not one type of relationship. Weird how you call celibacy unnatural. In the bible it is a very natural path in life, and for those who wish to remain single, celibate is what they are called to be.

[@DIBBY40]

One thing evangelicals seem to do, particularly if they are gay, is place a huge amount of stress and anxiety upon themselves. Their minds go through torturous theological reasoning and thinking trying to win God's approval. Fear of being "wrong" is a constant companion. It happened to me in the 1980s. Thankfully I'm free of evangelical fear mongering now. God bless your son. Stay strong, and don't let the haters get you or him down xx❤️

[@DIBBY40]

​@@Nicole-kc1vxYou are free to be celibate if you wish.

[@Nicole-kc1vx]

@@DIBBY40 already am, I'm taking issue with the person who claimed it's unnatural.

[@SavioursWon]

I know people will misunderstand because LGBT is the new god and any push back is always met with disbelief, but why would anyone who was a murderer claim to be a murdering Christian or why would anyone claim to be a adulterous Christian you can insert whichever sin you like here, when your identity is wrapped up in your physicality and sexuality then you are defeated and therefore you have a problem. Give to God what is God's and to ceasar what is ceasar's. I reject the whole identity politics which is where this discussion is coming from. If in order to be relevant to culture you have to become evil or do evil then you have lost both yourself and culture and Christ says takeout the log before the speck not the other way around. I am sorry that people struggle with the many many desires that people have hopefully though as we daily fight the desires and do not give in to them we will become more like Christ, because he was tempted in every way and yet did NOT sin. You cannot extrapolate Romans 14 and 15 to sexual sin, food was ceremonial, and Jesus dealt with food and its ability to make a person unclean. Let us be careful that we are not trying to plough with a donkey and an ox. Yes God loves us all but that goes for His enemies as well, this is not a good theological standpoint to say God loves me therefore I can goon sinning knowing full well it is sinful. Everything is permissible for me but not everything is beneficial everything is permissible but I will not be mastered by anything, let us be careful about placing anything before God. This is mostly generalization, each case is different and the reasons for sexual deviance varies and should be dealt with lovingly and gracefully but honestly and directly. May God truly direct the hearts and well done to the chap who is fighting hard for a celibate life, may Satan flee, I wish that more people who have normal (hetero) sexual desires would follow the example and wait till marriage and not try and circumvent marriage and sexuality that God designed to suit their desires.

[@ritawing1064]

"...tempted in every way..." really? In the context of this video, you might like to reconsider that.

[@lark8356]

Grace and Peace to you. Being a murdering Christian and a gay Christian isn't necessarily a good comparison. Murdering Christians practice murder. Since a practicing homosexual can't be a Christian, a gay Christian is someone who is attracted to the same sex yet resists homosexual relationships. It's not a sin to be attracted to the same sex. It is sin to be in a homosexual relationship.

[@user-cu3xn4xj3i]

​@@lark8356 It is a sin to be attracted to same sex. It not JUST about stopping a sin...homosexuality...it's in the mind too. If it's still on your mind lustfully then it's just like a person watching or being attracted/lusting to another woman or man. Repentance means hating AND not wanting to do that sin anymore. Praying to God that you will not want that sin.

[@lark8356]

@@user-cu3xn4xj3i Grace and Peace to you. Thank you for praying for me. I'm praying for you. Being attracted to the same sex is not the same as lusting after the same sex aka having sexual thoughts about the same sex. As a married man, I'm attracted to women who are not my wife. I can be attracted to them without wanting to have sex with them. I pray you'll discern the difference between attraction and lust.

[@SavioursWon]

@@lark8356the one who lusts has committed adultery already, Jesus builds fences around the command for good reason, the one who hates has committed murder, do not fool yourself rely only on Christ. Listen to Him Phil 4 "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things" renew your mind. BTW Do not forget that Paul murdered/imprisoned those he would later consider brothers and sisters in Christ we all have some measure of thorn in the flesh. Do not consider the thorn greatly but thank God that it humbles us that grace may shine.

[@UkrainianHimars]

Ik there asmall channel but deep drinks podcast would be a good guest and a cool video idea is "faith during war",You could get a ukrainian orthadox or a israeli jew

[@JohnnyHofmann]

awesome discussion!

[@dannorris8478]

Do yourself a favor and skip this discussion on how to dilute black and white scripture with slippery God talk. Watch a Laverne and Shirley rerun or take your cat for a walk. At least you wont have to listen to and keep from wretching over the ad nauseam self and mutually affirming Jesus love, Saint Andrews and N.T. Wright references, it will be time better spent and your cat will love you for it.

[@bobtaylor170]

This is the first time I ever watched this channel. There won't be a second time.

[@dannorris8478]

@@bobtaylor170 Thats wise.

[@wet-read]

All God talk is slippery, because theology is ontology *ON BLACK ICE*

[@khar12d8]

Do you speak ancient Greek? Have you read it in Greek? Otherwise I have no idea how you can call scripture simply black and white.

[@dannorris8478]

@@khar12d8 As a matter of fact I have read it in the original Koine Greek (not classical), I studied it for two years as a requirement for my bachelors degree. But Romans 1:26,27 is a clear and decisive rejection of homosexual activity as is 1 Corinthians 6:9. One doesn’t need an understanding of Greek to understand it, only an open mind and heart as a consequence of God’s saving grace.

[@sophielesher8002]

this video keeps emphasizing “two very different views” on christianity, but all I see here are 2 very deceiving false gospels that promote homosexuality

[@khar12d8]

You can't "promote" homosexuality. It's part of a human's makeup. God given, one might say.

[@edwarddoheny19]

Thanks for being brave and following God love ❤.

[@martinploughboy988]

God's love requires that you obey God. Neither of these two are doing so.

[@Genevieve2021]

Love the sinner, not the sin.

[@alexnorth3393]

Homosexuality is not a sin.

[@jmjw00]

This is such a lazy way to get out of feeling bad for treating your neighbors awfully. It takes a concept like love, removes any compassion, and morphs it into an excuse for bigotry. And even if not active bigotry, it's the excuse to take the backseat when religious conservatives are actively stripping away rights of those you claim to "love". To me, love is fighting with any individual that I love to live in a way that is in accordance with all of who they are and makes them happy. I don't understand the concept of actively loving someone and yet actively working against their self interest, either via the church and or your vote. If you're not okay with an aspect of someone's character that is so fundamental, you don't love them, period. You should be ashamed for stripping love, at all levels of context, of any meaning the word could possibly have.

[@Genevieve2021]

@@jmjw00 Think upon the very act of homosexuality; 2 men together. Do the parts fit? Is this as God intended? Does this act further creation? The anus is for defecation not sex. Why would I hate those that do this? Is my heterosexuality the sum of me?

[@Joeonline26]

​@@alexnorth3393Yes it is. It is disordered because it is contra-nature

[@herambaanjaneya2041]

Well being a brainless b*tch is certainly one of yours so I would start with that on your rather less than good self before you worry your tiny little mind about anyone else!