Christian Tissier - Bercy 2008

[@nuage7777]

Il est incroyable ce Christian Tissier! Bravo!

[@myristique]

La 1ere fois que je l'ai vu c'était à la télé (Bercy 1998). La démonstration est spectaculaire, on dirait une star médiatique. Depuis, j'ai fait 3 stages avec lui. Il s'occupe de tout le monde, même plusieurs fois, et pas en coup de vent. Il n'a pas du tout la grosse tête. Il dégage une simplicité humaine qui contraste énormément avec son niveau.

[@marquitosneige1341]

Normal chez lui

[@tunisaikido]

Wonderfull Tissier !!!! He's making me love aikido

[@oceanichippie]

@istilius Indeed. Those who say that the techniques are ineffective clearly haven't studied it too well. Aikido teaches that improvisation is the best form of self-defense. But in order to improvise, one has to learn the principles. These principles are taught by means of techniques. It is stupid to think that each attack is answered by a particular technique.

[@Gadni]

I like his style! Light movement! Awesome!!!

[@Scorpio1400]

this form of martial arts is really beautiful! I don't know a thing about Aikido, or any self defense for that matter...But just watching this gives you an idea of how strong and controlled you have to be just to make a demonstration for this. All of these moves look so graceful, like the students and teachers are dancing! but you can also see the power in which they inflict upon each other, and that would be so painful if that strength was inflicted on yourself! I have respect for this art.

[@MrPinoy91]

love how he shows the students under him in this one. they all are trained well

[@guererodelluz]

Awesome level and display of martial arts. Now i have to read the experts...mostly ufc fans who think the world evolve around fighting and mma

[@Tony-.]

so pure and beautiful

[@hahala0]

Ай, какая красота!!!

[@fromanotherstar]

amazing harmony!!

[@Demitrove]

J'adore Christian moi je suis pratiquant d'aikibudo

[@garyfox89]

wow, i guess that's why he's 7th dan. I couldn't possibly dream of ever being that good

[@myristique]

I partially agree with you. I stopped practicing aïkido since september, and practice thai boxing since. But in 9 years of aïkido practice, I had the chance to practice 3 times in a training given by Christian Tissier. And he had said : "come at my trainings, and I'm gonna show you that it is effective". So you should try and tell us what will have happened :) (excuse my english if it's not correct...)

[@kennjay79]

I do agree with the efficiency of Aikido. I wish to dabble in it later in my martial arts career in a dojo. From what I have acquired from it already, though, is angles of attack or defense. I'm a grappler and a Mixed Martial Artist, and I study anything and everything that will make a person submit. I find that suprising wrist locks have gotten me the most wins and that's all from learning aikido basics.

[@night02machine]

their ukemi can never stop to amaze me.... how he trained them till like that??!?!?!?!

[@thejohnou]

@Chad01234 "You will NEVER see one Aikido man retract his strikes and force his opponent to have to predict technique" Well, I'm sorry but I practice this way at every aikido class, for example by doing jiu waza. Many uke don't attack sincerly, and that's a real caveat. But don't give up! Investment in aikido will pay, sooner or later.

[@myristique]

Christian Tissier a pratiqué 7 ans au Japon, mais quand il a commencé là bas, il était déjà 2eme dan France. Or, on peut pratiquer 30 ans en France à raison de 2 ou 3 fois par semaine pour arriver et stagner par exemple au 3eme dan, ou alors passer 7 ans au Hombu Dojo où des cours sont données de 6h30 du matin jusqu'à 20h00 (sauf le dimanche où il n'y a "que" 2 cours) entourré de gens qui visent la perfection. Certains ne vivent même que pour l'aïkido.

[@sakura0jp0aikidodesu]

bienvenu à kyoto Tissier sensei!!!!! i am very glad!!!! but on this thursday, Kawahara sensei passed in Victoria　Canada,so sad..........合掌

[@syimang]

@Chad01234 Aikido is a martial art of self defense.What u learn in dojo is a variations of this art.U might not use everthing that u learned on the street.Few of this basic techniques r very useful but to master & understand it u need to learn variations of techniques(with patience) in this art & it takes 4-5 years to really used it on the street when it is needed.Whatever negative comments about it, i'm sure aikidoka will learn these:1)caution 2)distance 3)reflex 4)speed 5)stability & 6)timing.

[@Kuritzu]

5:02 looks great. We dont have that one in Aikibudo

[@Chad01234]

I will look into "Irimi," thank you.

[@thejohnou]

@Chad01234 remember it's a demonstration, people in the audience can be very far. That's why techniques are emphasized to make them visible by everybody.

[@myristique]

It's true that demonstration's techniques are choosen and defined before the demo takes place. I have participated in several demonstrations with my club. Though, good demonstrations are anyway dificult to apply. And most of the time, in a demo, there is always 1 or 2 techniques you make but which were not decided to be made, because when the attack happens, sometimes it's better to do another technique than the one we wanted to do (i don't know if i'm clear) Meanwhile, I tend to agree with you.

[@Dnestroyer]

I study Aikido too and I can only agree with you. People who want to fight cannot study this art because the idea and spirit of aikido isn´t the same as their one. Aikido is martial art that doesn´t start od keep fight but stop the fight.

[@oceanichippie]

@myristique This doesn't take away that Aikido is effective. As long as you train hard and do your best to make it become a second nature, you will manage to defend yourself on the street using Aikido. Agree?

[@Shodan9168]

Wow!!!!

[@colmtrim]

superb

[@pierrebertrand5847]

❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@aikipablo100]

Es inigualable!!

[@danfusavig]

i'm a student of kobayashi ryu but thi is a grat demostration and great teacher! poor uke!

[@sazen9]

@frenchguy09 The aikido style I train in is more of an aiki jujitsu. however we pratictice traditonal segment of aikido. To make aikido work you need to strike the opponent to be able to do any technique. One other thing you guys fail to look at is when demos are preformed they do so from a traditional stand point. With all the different styles of boxing Mixed martial arts, etc of course the demos look eneffective. But 70 -90 yrs ago when aikido was aiki budo that was how the japanese fight.

[@acquiesce100]

Steven Seagal - The Greatest!

[@Chad01234]

Sorry friend, of course you are correct. I think I was using an extreme example. My first karate experience was in 1979 as a child, in a traditional Japanese (JKA) dojo in Seattle, Washington. Anyway - it is just a shame that there isn't one advanced art (Aikido isn't alone in this) such as Kenpo, Jeet Kun Do, Krav Maga, etc., that is shown to be (a) in a free style competition (b) to look anything different than MMA. I want to see a master of any art fight in that art's style.

[@syimang]

@Chad01234 I was in a 3rd kyu ranking when i involved in a car accident few years ago.That guy walked out swearing at me & point a finger right up my face.I used only 2 techniques, that was iriminage & tenchinage.Few of the bystanders stop the fight when i was in the middle of doing tenchinage to him.He got bruises & cut on his face(i do not know how & when he got that), it happens to fast but i'm sure he didn't even touch me!Aikido really works, believe me!I'm going to 2nd dan this year.

[@myristique]

@romain3003 J'en ai fait 3 avant d'arrêter l'aïkido et à chaque fois j'ai été impressionné autant par sa technique que par sa pédagogie. En + il est très accessible (n'a pas du tout la grosse tête) et sait se mettre au niveau de n'importe qui ;)

[@BJPr12]

Does Mr. Tissier follow a particular style or did he create his own? It seems a bit different, yet very effective, specially when performing irimi-nage;I really like it. He's quite an splendid Aikidoka!

[@alexandargabric]

the dude makes it look too easy... at least i'd think so if i didn't know any better... awesome

[@Chad01234]

It's as pretty as it is ineffective. And it's very pretty. Could the incoming attacks be any wider and more amateur for the convenience of the Aikido master? Strikes come at opponents like jabs and crosses and variations in between - but only an amateur, a child, or a drunk would just throw a weapon like that -

[@eliohakim5235]

The move at 0:52-0.55 is yokomen uchi, shio nage .

[@Chad01234]

Wristlocks don't count as small joint locks (like snapping a finger, for example). However, with wrist wraps, etc., compounded with the fact that these are competent grapplers, you will rarely if ever see an "Aikido" lock of any sort in MMA. I can't think of one example, in any vido clip of a single Aikido stylist in any part of the world performing freestyle contact in parts of the world. I love the martial arts - always have - but there's reality and artistry.

[@Chad01234]

My final point is (and Aikido is not the only system that is guilty of this) in demonstrations - moves are telegraphed. That's how a demo works and I understand that. But as a neophyte student walking off the street - I would want to be educated correctly by hands on application. This is why floor systems are so effective - they get to practice at 100% (other than outright strikes and breaks). Martial arts needs to be built around defense that involves retracting, none telegraphed techniques

[@nikyosankyo1278]

my point of view is that we should not compare fighting sports, where obviously not everything is permitted and rules are there for show, with gloves as you say, and martial arts where we find a lot of aesthetic work, but in fights tend to not show as much. For instance "irimi" would be very short, fast and destructive, without the turning and throwing motions we can see in training and demonstrations.

[@istilius]

@Chad01234 Each technique in Aikido is a "story", means it has a story built in by a series of if-then condition througt Uke and Tori interaction. Techniques are not applicable at all, as you see. These serve only to educate the movement, which is why are just called "Techniques" and not combats.

[@Chad01234]

@istilius I can appreciate that reply. It makes sense from what I have seen. So you are saying there is a level of spiritualism involved in the movements? Sort of a move this way and connect to Zen sort of thing? Or am I off base?

[@martineuzenat9954]

arrêter de dire que l'on peut se servir des art matiaux dans la rue ça sert à rien j'ai une fois posé cette question à un 2ème Dan il m'a répondu de m'enfuir que a ne sert à rien de mettre ma vie en danger dans un combat dans la rue l'aïkido c'est une philosophie que l'on ne retrouve pas dans les sport de combat violent où l'on doit taper le plus fort sans réfléchir taper comme une brute sans finesse Ah oui Ke Ho met toi en face de ce grand combattant qu'est Tissier tu verras ton bras va pleurer, il peut très bien casser ton bras en un mouvement ton ne fait pas le malin

[@Chad01234]

@Mike I will humbly have to state that there is a reason why you don't see quite a few "arts" in the UFC or otherwise. The problem as Bas Rutten stated in regards to Aikido is there is a difference between an art and a martial art in regards to what is effective. However, could you please clarify my own naivity and direct me to some video that shows an open combat event or actual unpredictable attacks being used in a demonstration? I cannot find even one. Thank you mate /salute

[@myristique]

Ya déjà eu Christophe Pinna en face.

[@sazen9]

@frenchguy09 Tissier is traditonal aikikai. They are very strict on keeping everyting the same way O sensei created it and keeping in line with the philosophy of takemus aiki. I for one am a ferm believer that you must learn as many different arts as you can to better understand the art you use. Then you can find what works what does not and so on. Demos are just there to promote the awarness of the martial arts not their effectiveness

[@Zhensa]

@TSGJaws well, if someone really want to physically hurt you and even with knifes or some sort of club. i just heared that it is not a very practical martial art.

[@theschnitter]

Well like someone else said: Watch the Japanese Police some Offices are trained in Aikido (not all tho some are in Judo or JuJutsu) 2 Problems I see is that gloves MMA fighters wear in the Ring wont allow most of the Aikido Wrist Locks 2nd you have to be really fast and exact with your Technique to pull off an Aikido Pin against a grabbling Expert. In Aikido you Rely on balanced stence and try to get into Fighting Positon if you cant you actually obey your opponent so..

[@btocp]

No, he definitely earned his belt. Most people give him crap for one of 2 reasons: (1) 'cause he's an actor &, therefore, everything he does is "fake" to them. (2) According to some (I don't know, I've never cared enough to look into it), he somewhat scammed his way into his Japanese dojo... marrying his sensei's daughter in order to work his way in then, abandoning her once he got what he wanted.

[@oceanichippie]

@Chad01234 You are right. You should consult the philosophy of Ueshiba O Sensei to read more about this. Aikido is based around the concept of universal harmony. It was developed to attain self-perfection and to become one with the universe. None of aikido's moves are in contradiction with nature. I run short words to fully explain this and leave a stainless definition, so it's better for you to google it.

[@manos3003]

Furthermore, these videos can be used for educational purposes, where you can observe things that you could not see before and attempt them in practice. Aikido gives you a base of principles and a number of techniques against attacks, but you should do your own research on even more possibilities. Always friendly, Manos

[@theschnitter]

you won'T get a 10th Dan Blackbelt if you just Train after work, Neverever. I would say for a normal Person who trains at a local Dojo Top End is a 2nd or 3rd Dan and even for that Test he has to go to the biggest Dojo of his country or a special seminar of a really high ranked Master. In germany Blackbelt tests are helt inly twice a year to a max of 4th degree. I didnt used the Rules as an excuse but more as a reminder but actually the rules of Aikido prohibid us from attending things like UFC

[@Chad01234]

@thejohnou Don't get me wrong, I think the art looks amazing. It also has a ton of application into other arts. My regret is the way it's presented in these videos - especially in today's greco roman world of competition (i.e., MMA). It saddens me that I hear kids talk about MMA as if that is an art unto itself (and perhaps it is). I have a friend who is 4th black in Kenpo, and getting students is difficult. They all want "mma" training.

[@theschnitter]

Another Reason is that Aikido can be really dangerous if you just sparing it free. Most Moves are blocked in MMA sports because they have close wrist locks. And I tell ya they hurt!!! Even if you stand in front of your practioneer and dont turn your body to throw another punch it hurt really hard. If i imagine to turn my body for a new punch i would turn myself even more into that lock I never would get that idea. Also nikyo Sankyo and animerocks have good points there

[@fromanotherstar]

Does Tissier Sensei have students that teach his style in the United States?

[@Chad01234]

It is a beautiful and extraordinary art - I have no issue there. But art and effectiveness are two different things. I love American Kenpo - but the sad truth is you won't see the complexity of Kenpo at MMA - you see two guys of whatever style - you instead see various ranges of hand and feet techniques *usually 3 ranges that are various boxing/kickboxing techniques and you'll see submission floor work. I have yet to see anything this pretty in non-rehearsed fighting. How I wish I were wrong

[@syimang]

@Chad01234 By the way, if u have a chance to watch videos of how men harassing, attacking, grabbing, hugging women, u will see how useful these aikido techniques r. Aikido is a defensive martial art or a combat fight..not a 1 to 1 in a 'ring fight'. It defence itself from a brutally/deadly attack(with knife,sticks or even at gun point) & the intention of the attacker is to hurt u badly or maybe rape or kill u not just to win a 'fighting sports' where everybody will clap their hands if u win!

[@timer2202]

What can you tell about kicks in Aikido ? Que pouvez-vous dire des coups de pieds dans l'Aikido ?

[@Chad01234]

Well I will say that I have no doubt that a master will tear apart a guy like me or any other amateur. However, for me, I suppose when I attempt to rationalize the value of the art - I try to place the "masters" of any art in the ring with today's mixed martial arts practitioners. For example, Fedor Emelienko, Mirko Cro Cop, Brock Lesnar, etc., I would humbly love to see if Aikido would work at all against their level of skill or as Bas Ruuten stated simply, no.

[@Chad01234]

While I should have not been so rude (and for that I apologize), you have to admit, Aikido fans, that while the art looks amazing (and absolutely beautiful), you cannot find one video that demonstrates its effects in a free contact event in Japan, Europe, the USA, etc. And I think that is unfortunately true for a number of arts. When folks put on the gloves (even those very thin ones...), it's just kickboxing, and grappling at the level of the athlete - regardless of the art.

[@Chad01234]

@thejohnou I am sorry you actually believe that. KZbin aikido practices in a small dojo or between two people on a close up video. It's the same telegraphed ballet every time. You will NEVER see one Aikido man retract his strikes and force his opponent to have to predict technique - like I said, it's art, nothing more, nothing less. You will never see it in mixed martial arts or ONE video of this in a real fight. Unfortunately!

[@sherman4970]

As uke you learn to flow with the technique until it is just there.A good uke should become a good Tori?

[@Massdojo]

Not to appreciate a martial art and to criticize a master is just ignorance. Telegraphed or not... I'm quite certain he can take care of himself with a skilled opponent in a real self defense situation.

[@nikyosankyo1278]

that there's no technique. response is the same to all attacks, weapons, kicks, grabs... with some minor differences.

[@myristique]

Donc ça ne se compte pas en années mais en heures. Enfin, il est facile (mais inutile) de comparer des pratiquants lamba entre eux. Mais si ces pratiquants sont des Maîtres qui ont passé les barrières techniques, les différences de niveau deviennent invisibles et les différences de style, évidentes.

[@myristique]

Non, perso je n'oserai pas : parce que je sais que déjà en club ne j'arrive pas à le reproduire. Mais uniquement pour ça.

[@Chad01234]

Bas Rutten: Aikido in MMA KZbin that - he pretty much sums it up. Like I said - please folks - do not defend your art with "we can't eye gouge in mma" as being why we don't see Kenpo, Ninjutsu, Wing Chun, Shaolin Kungfu, etc....in the octagon. At least attempt a more viable defense - otherwise I'm going to assume Kenpo, Wing Chun, Shaolin Kungfu AND Aikido are just gouging styles...but lo and behold this video has ZERO eye gouging. I want 1 video of Aikido in mma - please.

[@Chad01234]

Effective martial arts needs to be built around defense and offense that involves retracting, none telegraphed techniques. Weapon and empty hand techniques should be built around defending against an advanced attacker who uses speed and precision in their attacks. Using and identifying fakes and feints are as well integral in training. Even a mediocre street fighter can train to fake a straight thrust to the face and then retract and re-thrust a fully dedicated lethal strike elsewhere.

[@kevMcOjika]

why does everyone feel the need to hate on other peoples art??? 'oh aikido would be no good against mma blah blah blah jf thats the case who wolud win between an mma fighter and an iaidoka, i have a pretty good idea who. but the point is the martial art is about more than just scrapping.

[@myristique]

Ca ne répond pas à ma question tout ça :)

[@theschnitter]

Well its only possible to train that if you are able to take ukemi correctly

[@Chad01234]

I'll just say it one last time - the "point" is that there is no way to truly know if any of this works. It's pretty - like many "arts," but there's a ton of excuses as to why these particular arts are never televised in full contact. Until the day comes when a man or woman steps forward and displays effective Aikido techniques in a real fight situation. this will just be seen as "an art." /peace out

[@istilius]

@Chad01234 ... may be, however, rather than spiritual I would say something as didactic or training.

[@myristique]

Comment s'appelle-t'il ?

[@nikyosankyo1278]

so don't believe, your choice :) I agree, you work not only on mental ... this is not Yoga. because there is Martial in "martial art".

[@myristique]

Bonjour, je pratique depuis prèsque 10 ans, soit suffisament longtemps pour me rendre compte que 10 ans de pratique dans cette discipline, en fait, c'est pas beaucoup... Paradoxal non ? Sinon, impossible de dire combien d'années il faut pour arriver à ce niveau. Je m'explique :

[@Red80008]

please excuse my interference. have you ever thought of martial arts being more than comparing muscles, speed and reflexes, more than fighting? miyamoto musashi is the best example: at first he was (had) a weapon. a fierce one. so he always had to fight and barely had peace. there's always one who thinks to be the bigger fish. the key was not to fight (kill) even if it seemed inevitable. eventually, he longed for peace not victory, exchanged his swords for a bokken and remained the best of all.

[@nikyosankyo1278]

probably true, but I doubt they have same lessons like most of Aikido schools, personally I think most of schools are not hard/realistic enough nowadays. no more hell dojos.

[@jammin1881]

@Chad01234 - you can't learn to ride a bike at a seminar........... real time randori and real time training are the only effective ways of practicing technique

[@manos3003]

I'm sorry my friend, but I believe you have misunderstood the purpose of this art. I've been studying under direct disciples of Christian Tissier and I can tell you from my experience a few things. We do not learn Aikido in order to get into a ring and fight, that would defeat the purpose of it being a system of education. It is not competitive, but it can be potentially lethal. We know we can destroy, but we choose to forgive.

[@Chad01234]

It's not that you "Aikidoka" aren't experienced. But there is a HUGE difference between being someone who trains every day for eventual octagon matches and a normal person who trains after work at the local dojo. You can have a tenth degree blackbelt but until you follow the same training and have the youthful vigor (sadly) there is no comparing a professional martial athlete and a regular "Joe Karate." Please don't let the ruleset excuse explain why there isn't ONE aikido master in UFC :)

[@theschnitter]

so We Aikidoka arent that experienced with strong Grabbling so if People are strong and Athletic in withstand in likely impossible Positions on the ground. The Reason behind it is that if it was "Samurai Reality" you would just pull your knife and stab the guy lying on his back in front of you in such a open Position. Besides "reality and artistry" Never forget that there are rules or codes(if you will so) in any martial art/sport UFC is using a Ruleset so is Aikido using one for Training

[@nikyosankyo1278]

man... what's your point, you like a tv fighting show which changed rules at least once (remember the early days, when "small" guys where first?) your taste your right. but there's no shame not being in those competitions, there's nothing to prove, just practice whatever you like and improves your life. by the way I think tv freefight prohibits eye poking, groin kicking, throat smashing etc... that is a shame for a freefight :)

[@Zhensa]

i dont see any anti-kick moves ... im not sure if this would work in a real combat.

[@sazen9]

The point being that you have to adapt aikido to the styles to what you might come across on the streets. Learn thai boxing and learn how to apply aikido techniques to defend against elbows/shin kicks, grapplers and ground fighting etc. Practice gun removeal along with sword removeal. Its good to learn traditonal arts but you need to make it effective and relevent. Just because the demos are staged doesnt mean you can rule it out as an eneffective art.

[@Khaymen223]

UFC fighting isnt proof that somethings combat effective.Aikido seems to be a target in the comments section mainly by UFC fans.Legalize small joint manipulations, and find a skilled Aikidoa willing to break O Sensei's anti competition beliefs and everyone of the UFC fellas would be flocking to Aikido schools to learn it like they did BJJ.Aikido would dominate UFC under that hypothetical rule change.No small joint manipulation rules for an Aikidoa is the same as telling a boxer no punching!

[@myristique]

Si, de la main gauche.

[@piemm88]

4min 08 son uke tombe deja alors qu'il ne lui a meme pas saisi le bras...

[@Chad01234]

@espanolporaplicacion THere's a reason you don't see Kenpo/Wing Chun/Ninjuts/Aikido in mixed martial arts. Anyway, sadly, the martial arts is like a religion for many people - i.e., try telling a scientologist he's wrong. If you have had personal positive experiences with x art, and I make common sense statements, then you will either deny the truth, or empty your cup and begin anew. Don't be fooled by this - I suppose you think Capoeira is a martial art as well? To each his own.

[@akakifrance]

et lave le le banner!!!!

[@Obsyde]

@typhus0007 Bin écoute tu m'appels le jour ou tu veras un gas qui fais de L'aikido battre un gas qui pratique dans UFC ( un sport qui montre vremant l'aspect brut d'un combat). Je te donne un exemple mon ami qui fait depuit 10ans de judo n'a même pas osé déffendre un autre copain ou il etait deux contre lui. Question 10ans de judo qui te serve a quoi ? a rien.... Aprés tu parles du muay thai la je veux bien l'avoué que se sport ( completement différent de l'aikido en passent) et + Dur

[@Chad01234]

@justryingtoimrpove With all respect - the Kenpo Karate guys make the same defense. What you are in fact doing by defending Aikido in that way - is you are saying it is limited to those techniques..i.e., only to illegal techniques. My point is that I have yet to see an Aikido master throw ANYONE around the mat like the telegraphed and obviously orchestrated techniques the art demonstrates as its trademark.

[@Chad01234]

@eliazourosqw I understand why you believe that and I respect the art as an art. But, until you take those techniques and attempt to apply them to someone training in mixed martial arts at a competitive level, i.e., until you see a grandmaster ever step into a bare knuckle competition...you will have zero proof of this being effective in regards to relaying Aikido to the world via a medium such as youtube. Folks watch UFC, Pride, etc these days - you just can't fool the world anymore.

[@theschnitter]

Aikido is a Do in first place.. a Way an Art strictly dirved from Budo that will help you work on yourself not only on your body. and BTW: I don't believe in the thing called "talent"

[@290600kiwi]

très beau, mais pas du tout efficace en applicatif ce qu'il fait, 0:45 bloquage de l'adversaire, stabilisation, et il repart .. de plus le uke amorce sont attaque.. trop prévisible. Juste bon pour la démonstration.

[@Obsyde]

l'Aïkido c'est vremant nul, j'en ai fais pendant 1mois, je trouve que c'est inutile vous avec déjà vus des combats ou le mec va te donné un coup a 2mètre avec le bras déjà tendu ? NON ! Dans un combat c'est " Coups de poing sans prévenir dans la face, je t'attrape par la gorge coup de boule, je te met a terre et je t'enchaine" Faut etre réaliste se genre de combat tu vois ça que dans les films. La seul chose bien ce sont les prises de finition.

[@acquiesce100]

bolloks