Christianity Beyond Itself w/Matthew Segall

[@O.G.Rose.Michelle.and.Daniel]

Excellent discussion gentlemen, and wonderful to see you both in conversation! I enjoyed this a lot.

[@sensespacepodcast]

Glad to hear it Daniel

[@jonathanwilner6174]

Thank you for this heartfelt conversation. Here are my thoughts on this in-depth and profound discussion: There is the proclivity to seek stable ground, terra firma. One might revert back to that which offers this stability within a mythical narrative and, indeed, return to one's upbringing or replace the lack thereof with an imagined past. The grown man or woman who was not brought up in this way might seek substitution embracing such a mythos whereby one imagines a childhood rich with such a narrative. Thus, one becomes once more a child, the ideal child as in Isaiah, “[. . .] and a small child shall guide them.” It might offer us a chance to imagine ourselves returning to our past with the desire to reclaim it. However, at times, one might find this pursuit too confining. One then finds his or herself vacillating between this desire to reclaim the past and the straight jacket imposed by it. We have always skated along the edge of the vast sea, the tohu va vohu that ever threatens to swallow us. The immediacy of this moment hangs as a Damoclean sword over our heads. Alas, humanity has been always under this existential threat hence the biblical edict of being fruitful and multiplying. Our personal mortality serves as a reminder of the possibility of the entire species extinction. We have always lived with this uncertainty. Here I beg to demur. The failure to feel the suffering of our neighbor is the context whereby we move beyond ethos to ethics. Loving one's neighbor as thyself does not mean mutually shared suffering. It is the opposite - the inability to feel what the other endures. We are wounded in this manner from birth as embodied consciousness. We are alone and feel the weight of our own individual existence. And this alone drives our ethical initiative. We can only acknowledge what the other endures. We cannot feel what the other person goes through as that other individual. It is this isolation, this solitude that constitutes the basis for all ethical action. Such an evolutionary process is unknown and uncharted because the future is not only concealed but does not exist. We have no future. And from that which we do not possess, this liminal aspect which tantalizes and thrusts us into a perpetual crisis mode feeling the gravity of our mortality and our temporality, is the source of all lived experience. Time moves backwards towards the past, towards history from this unknowable because nonexistent future. We witness this perpetual emergence of experience standing upon the liminal border between the past and future. Immanentize the eschaton - storming the gates of heaven. Well said. Perhaps tierra madre is wending its way back into our mindset. It is alive and well here where I write these notes. She is enshrined in her edicule along the main street here where I reside. Alas she tells me that she is unwell fore her journey. It is interesting that Jeremiah chides Israel for worshiping the Queen of Heaven. They replied in exile within Egypt's upper Nile, (to paraphrase) “We offered incense upon the rooftops to her in Jerusalem, but you told us not to. So, we only worshiped the Tetragrammaton and look what happened. We lost our fair city to the Babylonian armies but now are trying to get back into her good graces.” Jeremiah retorted, “It is because you worshiped her that this misfortune fell upon you.” Hence the verdict falls upon the reader to decide who is right. Then there is mother Rachel buried along the crossroads in the outskirts of Bethlehem crying for the children of Israel who are marched off into historical oblivion to be no more. And then Mary Magdalena weeping in her cave in Southern France. The main river which runs its course through the country wherein I reside is called the Magdalena.

[@PhilosophyPortal]

Fantastic work, both of you. I love the idea of a project that both reconciles with deep layer of Christian tradition while simultaneously opens to a post-Christian/non-Christian secular layer that allows for a real plurality. I think holding that contradiction at the intersection of love/freedom is the key. The challenge is enormous but I think many of the projects in contemporary liminal web/underground theory networks like SenseSpace are up to it!

[@rickmcentee9204]

As a former priest, I really feel your message and it rings true to me. Keep up the good work! 🏆💛🤟🏽. Colonization is like everything - can increase or decrease suffering depending on the intention and application. 👍🏽

[@yourfavoritesteve]

Matthew’s comments resonated with me.

[@BryanMoss33]

Pluralism is the only way. Its where the glory of Love and Freedom can be felt at its deepest levels. Love sees through polarity and melts down road blocks, unlocks prison doors. Love turns its worst enemy into its greatest advocate. This redeeming power should never be overlooked when we confont our own enemies. Until we can love like this we will always give power and life to Love's opposition.

[@BloodStarvedBrotherhood]

It's interesting watching this and seeing just how much I agree on many topics, but then wildly disagree on others due to my idealist metaphysics. In my mind, Jesus was the template for embodying Christ consciousness, which is the state of knowing that all is consciousness and that I am also one with that consciousness. Jesus didn't find doctors and get funding to set up a clinic to heal the sick and feed the hungry, he went to the source and healed and fed them from that. Jesus said that all that he does, we can also do, and even greater still. This is the Christianity I don't find, the kind with true faith and working to be as Christ. Neville Goddard is the best teacher I've found that teaches actual Christianity, and I only found him after experiencing Christ for myself, not as a separate man but as my own self.

[@sensespacepodcast]

Thank you for reflecting and also the link to Neville Goddard, I will have to check him out. I resonate with your sense that the full meaning of the christ incarnate is something experienced first hand, in the now, unfolding through time and between us.

[@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120]

I like pluralism but how do we explain quotes like this, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.", it seems like Jesus disagrees.

[@sensespacepodcast]

@@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120 That would depend how we interepret it. Obviously this particular line has been used as a basis of exclusivism extensively in Christianity. However, in the broader context of Jesus' Christ teachings it seems very unlikely he's saying 'only me, jesus in particular, no other way to God'. (Let alone, 'only through Christianity' a religion he never claimed to be a part of. From what I've read elsewhere, we can read this much more in the context of the 'I AM'. How we understand the 'I AM' is critical to the meaning of 'through me'. In the context of 'I am that I am', we could say that 'no one comes to the father except through the I am that I am'. In other words, no-one comes to the father except through the realisation of Christ Consciousness. Now, whether you consider Christ Consciousness to be exclusivist or plural is a whole other question. However, in my understanding the small and contractive 'only through me' you describe doesn't feel like the deepest reading we can attain and reflects more of a Christian energy than that of Christ.

[@sensespacepodcast]

@@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120 Another useful thought experiment: If every scrap of christianity, every bible, all knowledge and symbols disappeared from the earth would the christ still be real/true? If so, then there's something omni-present, omni-available about Christ consciousness beyond the Jesus tradition.

[@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120]

@@sensespacepodcast Jesus wasn't apart of Christianity that's clearly true. however, how do we explain Jesus stating clearly that he would build a church and his disciples ought to look after that.

[@SpiritualEvolution14]

The 3rd space is anthroposophy

[@1CASSIODORUS]

In one sense , I very much agree with the spirit of this talk which implicitly points out that Christianity needs to be a mystical Christianity and must transcend itself to be true to itself . That said , my " exoteric" side pushes back with the charge of not really understanding the heart of the Christian revelation and the importance of the death and ressurection of Christ in history. " If Christ was not raised , then your faith is futile " The Good News was that God, out of love , entered His creation in the flesh as a man , defeated death and in doing so reconciled us to Him. There is a tendency among the esoterically inclined to make Jesus a Buddha like figure that brings knowledge rather than the man of sorrows who died for our sins . There appears to be an irreducible opposition between grace and intellection.

[@thenowchurch6419]

I see your points to a degree. There is much more to Buddha and his teachings than intellection. The intellect is chastened in various parts of the Path and the Heart of Compassion is much more the focus, which is not far from the Heart of Christ revealed in His Passion for us.

[@1CASSIODORUS]

Yes. I would go on to say that , by extension, Bhakti and Jnana seem inescapably set against one another . The path of love requires the other and a _real_ difference between lover and beloved . But unqualified nondualism tells us this difference is illusory rendering bhakti to a "lower" level than the path of knowledge.

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@1CASSIODORUS I disagree and challenge you to consider the following. Bhakti progresses until the difference fades in perception and one is in the Non-dual state. The non-dualism of Jnana does not mean that the difference is purely illusory, only that it is not absolute and therefore can be surmounted by the path of the Heart or the path of the Mind. So in my perception Bhakti is not "lower" than Jnana though some may tend to consider it so. Bless up.

[@1CASSIODORUS]

I agree that Bhakti is not “lower”. But it seems to me that those traditions that regard the phenomenal world as lacking inherent existence see differences as _illusory_ or merely apparent . If that be the case , then _love_ would also have to be on the illusory side of the metaphysical divide . As I understand it , this is a part of the reason for the centuries of dispute between the Vaishnavas and Advaitans in India .

[@thenowchurch6419]

@@1CASSIODORUS To the extent that a tradition regards all the differences as merely apparent, I consider it flawed. That is because although accidental factors like material objects and elements can be reduced to points and waves and then to the Void or Absolute Consciousness or Self, individual sentient beings on the human level cannot be reduced to each other or to pure identity with the Self. Of course this is my opinion based on my reading of and experience of certain masters. It seems to me that the Self negated parts of Itself in order to potentiate the creation of individual human souls for the reason of eternal companionship and Divine Play/Bliss. That cannot happen if all is reduced to the one Self alone. It has been a pleasure discussing with you. Be blessed and blissed.

[@rsandy4077]

I feel love from my mother but also from my father and frommy siblings and from my friend. Is it the same? Its love right? Are all the same? Is there any difference? What does God have to do with pluralism? What does Jesus have to do with others? Is all the same since I feel love?

[@newdawnrising8110]

It seems to me that one man alone can do very little. A group working together toward a very clear aim can begin to bring about the change we are looking for. The Christ Revelation is something the modern world has nearly forgotten. Unfortunately we need more than a few experiences to bring about the transformation that we are called to. We need a practice and a way of life that helps us to live more and more in this moment open to the presence of Spirit. We must “Acquire the Holy Spirit” in order to be transformed. Alone we are too weak and too easily influenced by the outer sleeping world. The Orthodox Church is the only institution with the structure and ideas that can lead us to the Way. Real knowledge has been preserved in the Church. Seek and you will find. Knock….

[@thenowchurch6419]

Much truth in this comment.

[@boblove3167]

Whiteheads organism? Jung's synchronicity? Man does not live by bread alone but by every word ... Dia logos. Matt is right ... We cannot "do" it alone. See yourself ontologically as 4 levels of being in hierarchy.... Monos, nomos, oikos, logos. Creature, culture, creation, creator. You must go to a higher level to reconcile divergences at a lower level. Schumacher small is beautiful chapter 6. These 4 levels of being correspond to schelers 4 levels in the value hierarchy. selah