christians be gaslighting people

[@meganp6810]

“I’ve made it a point to not be condescending to Christians.” I just want to say that I’ve noticed this very early on and commend you for it. You have a unique ability to share your ruminations without insulting or mocking a group that you now disagree with. You’ve challenged me (a Christian) to look at the ways I fail to give others this kind of respect and grace. Thank you Joe.❤️

[@flightsfeelings]

thank you!! means a lot!

[@beanpie2912]

When I deconstructed from Christianity (i havent left the faith per se), Its like a veil had lifted from my heart. I learned to love people better, I'm more understanding, less judgmental and even some of my socio-political views have changed. When I was a hardcore Christian, I was very pushy and judgmental with my worldview and the evangelism that I was doing more harm than good. Now that I'm not responsible for anyone's eternity anymore, I feel so free. I'm currently trying to marry my faith in Jesus/God with this new, loving, caring and empathetic version of me. Thank you Joseph for unpacking your journey out of the faith in such a graceful manner and embracing nuance.

[@emeraldayz]

Same here! I'm very thankful for this channel. I'm still deconstructing and in the same boat of trying to tie marry things together. There was so much from my own hyper-pentecostal "theology" that just enabled emotional immaturity and judgmental. But out of fear and growing up in spaces that I couldn't question anything, now the freedom of questioning things and being questioned has been freeing.

[@NikkiBramwellOnline]

My own journey mirrors this. The more I divested from "Church Inc." the more freedom, genuine compassion, and human I became. It's been a beautiful journey.

[@thebritneylashaun]

I found you during your Chase God webisode days. I joined the ride on your poetry journey (snap, snap or all ten), your music journey (if my memory serves me correct, your first headliner show was in Orlando and was such a vibe) and your Flights and Feelings podcast. When you created this channel, I subscribed and tuned in as well. I don't hear these videos and think you just ramble for 45 minutes. You process your thoughts very well and I appreciate your perspective the same. Thanks for sharing with us in all seasons of your life.

[@naomiolutayo]

After I left church, so many people minimized my decision down to church hurt. They said that's what taints my view on Christianity (basically saying i'm bitter). No one is denying it had influence on my decision, but saying that completely discredits the effort I put into coming to my own conclusions. I used to be that condescending. Thank GOD I can see that now. And I agree- you do a good job at not targeting Christians and cornering them because of anger. You come off very neutral to me, despite your current worldview.

[@iamdanielmonroe]

I’ve had the same types of convos with an old youth pastor of mine after sharing that I was questioning and deconstructing my faith in wake of leaving a cult (long story) It is disheartening that they often tend to write off genuine questions as a simplistic response to trauma.

[@simon-y2b]

Quick word to say about how I love what you're doing and I'm praying for you. I was raised a Baptist, deconstructed, realised that nothing in this world is as good as Christianity, came back and found out about Eastern Orthodox Christianity. A lot of the challenges I had with Protestant Christianity, I found were due to its disconnect with historic (Orthodox) Christianity. God bless you and protect you man.

[@NikkiBramwellOnline]

Spot on Jo. I deconstructed after helping to plant a church. Still a person of faith and believer in Jesus, but part of my own maturity has included seeing how low the bar of emotionally intelligence tends to be for folks that remain in traditional evangelical/fundamentalist circles. Sometimes it's just laughable how little empathy "Saints" have, let alone the intellectual honesty. It's sort of embarrassing tbh. There's just very little room for christians to hear feedback on how they come off. In short, your videos here are extremely helpful.

[@lamisspoetry]

“If you can’t sit with, then sit out” that’s a bar!

[@openlyopinionated6840]

It is wild to see how our perspectives on things allow some of us to be irrational, at the end of the day we can have different perspectives & it still be all love but some religions don’t think that way 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@ChelBelle723]

As a recently deconverted, whose family and extended family are still either mostly Catholic, Christian, or Hebrew Roots, I can really get where you're coming from. Yes, religious people can be hurtful, but anyone can as you say. What really caused my deconversion was an honest desire to understand the bible, and an attempt to read it only to find a ton of contradictions and things that didn't add up, even in the character of the God it portrays. I'm not an atheist, and I definitely fell away because I did my due diligence and found the bible wanting. But even still I will be told by Christians that I fell away for emotional reasons, that I need to come back to God/ Jesus, or that I'm angry or bitter towards God. I find it's a complete invalidation of my experience. I'm grateful for your speaking out about this in an open and honest way. Ty!

[@jpement]

I almost wish you released this video as a Christian, i.e. when you had a bigger audience of christian listeners because some of these points need to be shouted from the rooftops. As someone who's [slightly] intellectually inclined I get emotional hearing you articulate these things because they are on point! And as a Chicago boy who's found himself in Southwest Sydney Australia, there aren't many folks (christian or otherwise) who dialogue on this level out here. It's a breath of fresh air.

[@LindokuhleTG]

A guilty mind breeds punishment and my ardent belief is many Christian minds are embroiled with an identity of guilt, for themselves covertly and others overtly, and it’s clear as day in the conversations we have and what we think about “non Christians.” Once I stopped indulging in a thought process of guilt, for anything … that gaslighty and preachy aspect of my “personality” vanished, even in the faith conversations. I found an immense joy in all, for all, as all. Really just a countenance of a child … there I found the heaven within.

[@flightsfeelings]

this journey definitely made me acquainted more with my own humanity and how difficult or grey life and faith can be? and it’s like who am i to judge anyone who is simply trying their best to be genuine and honest and progressing? who am i to judge someone who’s had a completely different lived experience that i may never really fully understand. i can only “do unto others” as i would want them to do unto me, which is, foundationally, simple empathy. and i believe that’s a pretty powerful ethic and even politic.

[@LindokuhleTG]

@@flightsfeelingsAbsolutely! Thank you for your vulnerability in having these conversations.

[@essenceoneessence]

You make an excellent point! That god/Jesus interacted with people in real ways in all circumstances in the Bible. While faith was promoted clear evidence was provided. Whether it was a talking bush, a talking animal, showing crucifixion wounds, audible words from god, heck, even the miracles. We don’t read about believers who believed from claims but they believed based on experiences they all had themselves, firsthand. So what happened?? What changed between then and now?? It’s hard to go along with this if one is being completely honest. This is one of the ways I escaped from this system but you worded nicely. Thanks for this video

[@ChrisCorey]

I’ve always loved the life you live, Joseph. I remember when your chase God webisodes were new each week. I admire the way faith was real to you. And now, it’s easy to see that you’ve always had a genuine nature. You’re providing an outlet for everyone to understand what it is that they truly believe, and I thank you for that. I also see the undying love that you truly have for Jesus. Paul discussed this in the scriptures, and I can see it clearly in you. Thank you for caring for others beyond their false perceptions of you. Thank you for caring for the people who care for you. And most of all, thank you for thinking of the people who are still discovering which way is best for themselves. Your journey is helping countless others navigate theirs. I believe only God could make someone’s love for others truly genuine. Thank you for never giving up on yourself. This is giving people the unspoken strength that they need to survive in this world today. Your content is much greater than people give you credit for. 🙏

[@sking388]

Word. One thing that's been on my mind lately is a story of a buddhist monk [Ji Gong] saving a man that was about to commit suicide - he did so in an unconventional manner, but I believe the moral of the story is the mode of compassion in which he operated in. On the web-page article detailing parts of his biography there was an exposition of this, and it says something I find quite true - which is that often Pity sets up a separation between one and the other, and in doing so gratifies the ego, whereas compassion is more like "shared suffering", e.g. if you can relate with another person. To add on, I learned that compassion is not "grief" in the sense of an immersion in experience that results in anguish, nor "resentment"(imo I think this is because there is not enough understanding - I have a theory that perfect understanding yields love, but lest I digress here - this I just find true in my own encounters & thinking), or "aversion"(imo a lack of love; a means of self-preservation so to speak which is contra to the metaphysical nature of love in the biblical sense: love's mode is that it tends to or is directed to the others' good and not towards one's own self's good). The short exposition ends with the line that compassion is the wish to dissipate suffering. I take it then that this is love's mode in "focus" basically, as in understanding (so in a sense of shared-suffering, or putting oneself in others' shoes - exercising one's imagination to better understand, which is useful in the case whereby if one can't relate initially), and then from understanding focusing on the the good of the other (love isn't self-seeking but seeks the good of the other). But I say in "focus" mode because it allows one to perhaps think more rationally by maintaining a more objective mindset (so as not to fall into anguish, or resentment, etc., and just stay there so to speak - which isn't good imo). One thing I learned from mindfulness (& we practiced this in highschool auditoriums too back then when i was younger), is sort of just stepping outside of your thoughts and observing your thoughts (because we are not our thoughts), this allows for a more true sense of the picture and sort of if you know the truth, then the truth sets you free so to speak (you'd have more freedom & options/utility from a more accurate/better framework to work with - and here I believe the degree to which it is Utilitarian stems from the Truth it holds - that's something that I think is crucial, but I understand we may respectfully disagree here/have different views). I bring this up because I think in essence it's almost the same thing, so the side-stepping comes not from "aversion", but in staying true to the task / sort of reframing to focus on the heart of the matter - the good of the other (afterall love is not self-seeking, but is characterised by the "seeking" of the good of the other), Which could be described as a more "stoic" approach one could say ( I personally noted it because it prevents one from just remaining in anguish, which isn't useful or for a better connotated word if i may - helpful xd). But Of course though, understanding comes first in the order of things (which may indeed bring up some/varying degrees of discomfort as in the nature of "shared-suffering", especially in so far as one can relate with another - though different; but that's the beauty of it i guess - the gift of compassion for any that shares in compassion). I believe even if one person has nice intentions, like the grandma story/example, there can still be deficiencies (because I believe often things come in extents - moral virtues, Truths, goodness, and so on). Like the thing you said where often both things could be true, as in you do care, but you're not perfect so you say something that's not loving and it stems from some unloving trait/deficiency. But the Pity examples you made were funny XD - I really don't like Pity, at all (I think it stems from a lack of love tbh - imo, as aforementioned above). But on the other hand, I also think sometimes in rare/maybe not-so-rare cases, there's no malice behind it at all (as in it could be, in my thinking at least, that some people default to thinking that someone may just be angry/upset at God or something else, whenever they observe something or a certain opinion that's not their own), or that even if there is malice, it could be from an environment or upbringing, or whatever, sort of an "ingrained-&-so-practiced" malice. Then I'm not sure if I could fault them (or at least to what extent), but nonetheless Goodness, Virtue, and so on, comes in extents after all - its just things get murkier in discerning the finer details. In my own experience, and what I've seen, I think most people just aren't as mindful, or virtuous (though maybe just as a result of/to the extent that they're not mindful, or more/something else). Honestly, imo I think this is why the call to bring every thought captive to Christ so-to-speak isn't an exaggeration, but a true-call to "more life". As in the focus on the every-thought part is actually really crucial, and should be practiced and incorporated [mindfully] in this context. Also in before anyone says I'm looking to idols or whatever, i believe God created Truth for humans to discover all over & Truth is not exclusive to a group but God alone, and hence all "truths" can be perceived and learned from wherever & whenever. E.g., Maths [i don't think the Bible teaches this XD but yet it's True XD]. Textually i'd use Exodus where Moses commands Israelites to take jewellery from Egyptians to mean to take from/learn from other philosophies/truths/beautiful things outside of the Church for use (following St. Gregory of Nyssa's exposition on Exodus - where he noted literally even if it didn't happen, allegorically it still stands and holds spiritual truth). Again taking the allegorical meaning which is more than common in the Early Churches. Song of songs make no sense to be in the Bible unless understood spiritually, by the same token all scriptures are divinely inspired only when read through the inspiration[s]. (i mean divinely inspired when written i wouldn't doubt, but the point is only when read through inspiration[s] is it then divinely inspired - in original context / more). After all - "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Taken as whole, Christ preached forgiveness, mercy and not vengeance, and all the good-stuff-and-the-like, even unto the death of his killers for forgiveness because of ignorance, and if the OT & NT God are as purported one and the same, the NT takes precedence in interpretation through Christ as Fulfilment & His Expounding of Truth & Meaning for all of OT & its references/terms and [possible] interpretations. Food for Thought for All

[@alyssiasimmons1256]

Still a Christian and hope to remain one but it’s easy to agree that within Christianity there a are subgroups of thoughts and behaviors towards non Christians that are worth calling attention to. Cool video

[@cyanide_and_]

9:00 I'd say it's being avoidantly thinking deeper due to emotional illiteracy. Because that's what's been modelled in church/church life. No questions/ questioning lest we be deemed weak in faith, so no need to hold space for when people express doubt, when no textbook model answers will simply shut down what's inside us. It's beyond cognitive dissonance, our bodies do bear these stresses over time. Keep on keeping on, keep them at bay - until one day the faith must shipwreck.

[@DavidXavierMoore]

What was the straw that broke the camels back for you regarding Christianity? Was it a particular contradiction or topic/doctrine, etc? Genuinely curious, thanks 🙏🏽

[@flightsfeelings]

many straws. many camels. never one.

[@OnTheEmmausRd]

"Who hurt you?" That is such an ignorant & arrogant question to ask someone who decides to stop following Jesus. Pain can be a reason someone makes that decision and we all know that the church knows to inflict pain on itself - and I have found that the most common way she does that is by NOT LISTENING when those who are in pain are talking (I'm not suggesting you're in pain and we should listen BTW🤣) I think the question is a defence mechanism (and there are many questions like it). I think they struggle to listen and have a rational conversation about the decision you have made, so they reduce it to an emotional response; it's easier than having to weigh up what you're saying and think about what we say we believe. It grieves me that, as a Christian, I've probably resorted to that type of question because I was too selfish to listen as someone shared their heart with me. Thank you, I pray I will listen before I speak.

[@sking388]

One interesting point you brought up though was the idea that you can't separate one good from the other (the Tim Keller example - of the fruits of the spirit), I think it's a very special case of being "all-in" on something (not special as in undoable though). I'd think of that in terms of if you were "all-in" on something, you could still go more "all-in" as you grow in whatever you have more of what's "all-in" (like in Poker or something, so as you gain more chips per-say). So perfect "loving" or whatever-virtue stats, if it could be mapped-out, isn't required, but just that you're "all in" (because after all, that would be impossible imo XD i'd imagine, but two the fact that you can be better is still true, so it makes sense to me while retaining the conclusion of what follows - that you can't have one without the other). This is something I came up with imo, but it's just the way I think about these things - Whatever "chips" given in a moment per-say, to go "all-in" then, would suffice (imo). I think this is important, because in your previous video you mentioned Jesus asking each person to give up a certain thing - I'd imagine the Rich person perhaps is still "virtuous" and a good person undoubtedly - at least or according to my own personal standards, but lacking for it to be complete or "all-in" (perhaps for the Rich person it was his riches). The way I see it is if a part of a structure is compromised, then the whole of that structure is compromised (because the part is part of the whole - like a Jenga or building or a chemical sample, if there's contamination in the smallest amounts in one of the parts it would be like 99.95% pure). But that what isn't required is the building to be a certain type or for the chemical to be the most pristine from the class of chemicals. [This is an imperfect analogy though - partly because we're sinners so idk how to account for that in terms of using an analogy XD, perhaps however this analogy could suffice if just referring to the spirit/will/nous, as it is distinct from the "flesh" after-all, but for simple illustration sake I'll refer back to this]. In terms of the Usefulness of this, I think it's something like if you just tidy up your desk but not the mess underneath it, you're not as diligent as you would want to be/could be (and that it's problematic insofar as it's self-defeating or incongruent). So in this example that would be the 100%, to clean-up both, unless there was also something that in conscience [per-say] is called to attention in the moment. Using James 4:17 & Romans 14:3 as guide here [& for the model i set up]. Or in my own thought experiments, if someone remains loyal but watches porn, sure that is possible so to speak (perhaps even for the whole of the marriage), but somewhere down the line you're, in action / objectivity / metaphysically, placing pleasure above whatever value is important (which is actually then, contra to loyalty or what it means/its essence). So to the person that says I don't get how it isn't loyal if I don't cheat on my partner with another person, it's contrary imo because of the implicit (the part &/or the whole). Hence why I think Jesus expounded on this truth (or clarified the moral truth), that lust is already committed in the eyes so to speak (and not just act; though i would consider thinking an act but yeah language XD - it has its flaws; or maybe just us). Personally, since you're sharing so much and I respect you for that, if i may share a bit - I think this is something that Christ has called me to give up on (i mean i can't hear him/this auditioned to me XD but just so to speak). For the Rich person's riches for me is lust. Now I'm not perfect by any means and I still struggle with this - but imo it's good wrestling and a refreshing one. I was in certain sexual-relations previously (e.g. ex-girlfriend, etc.), but I won't go into too much detail here & I've cut it out so-to-speak. And I've been thinking a lot about this, objectively, and imho [even if i weren't a christian], if i had the same mindset/thoughts it would be a good wrestle [something like the stoics reasonings], the fruits would be rewarding. In times where I felt I have truly followed (all-in, 100%, with all the current chips I had/have so to speak, and not regarding obtaining the max. chips-as that seems impossible, though a good one i'd suppose - Nietszche), I've had more peace & joy, but something even more than that. What I mean, and again, this is my attempt to objectify it or explicate it [though really Language is Imperfect here, not just in its scope but that its reduction robs Experience/Life of its intrinsic qualities], is that if a structure is whole in a sense (even if it's not the best), as long as its harmonious, it allows for more/greater flourishing with whatever its interacting with (i.e. life & the things it has to offer), because its synchronous & more efficacious in that all the parts are in agreement/alignment. It is in such light, that i believe integrity derives its good. Like using the chemical example, when reacted with another chemical, the one with less contamination or greater purity, generates a greater chemical reaction than the one with a lower percentage of purity. In such a way (and again I use this analogy because I find it true experientially; as one thing that always made sense to me is that subjectivity explicates or correlates with/points to something real, whether that real thing is what the person has in mind/not). Using a funny example, like if an attractive woman told me to look out, but I just stare at her boobs (and I get struck by whatever thing I was told to look out for), had I payed attention - perhaps I really avoided it (for example's sake). In essence, I'm not engaging with the things that are more important, or at least, I'm misweighing the worth that things are due, or positively - I'm weighing worth to worth's proper due (e.g. instead of just acknowledging she's pretty & leaving it at that, or running-away as recommended XD - which I realize now is refreshing & wise, i'm giving power or acknowledgement to worths that are not worth as much worth as they are due). As one could grow something's worth [artificially almost], by lusting more or delving deeper into it (so one's voluntary acts furthers one's own effects - e.g. you reap what you sow - so to speak). Same with addictions, or any sort-of-the-like, it all starts in the mind I guess. I think in one sense then, On the same-token, fasting [whatever of choice, overheard "social-media" fasting before too - which is good for the brain imo, though i haven't tried yet xd, though food & social aspects were often the choice back then] is increasing the amount of chips you have, which I think is why so many Eastern Orthodox saints (or figures in the past) had greater experiences/encounters with God [though they're purported/documented as such, and there's less "verifiability"]. Or even just that - Being "all-in" with the current chips you have, allows one to have better/"more" truthful experience in one's journey. This I find experientially true, it's sort of like knowing the truth and the truth sets you free, but that knowing part takes a part/effort from self, so that a person's virtue in a sense directly contributes to the knowing. Almost So that a person's acts are a person's own rewards/detriment (you reap what you sow). Which is what I'd imagine a God that creates voluntary creatures would allow for (as a reasonable mechanism so that the agent has agency into the agent himself/herself - which is fair & rewarding - the reward is its own reward; pleasure from lust is awarded to the person then, more "lust" - i mean this is the "pathway" for addiction pretty much; virtue(integrity) awarded with more virtue - e.g. in day-to-day experiences per say, but moreso/more accurately truth(integrity) is awarded/allows for more truth, which wouldn't happen unless you're "all-in" e.g. in the example i'm explicating, Of course things come in extents, but the real-danger perhaps is integrity works its way bottom-up; if up is the self-expression of self/its outputs/all its actions. This is just me piecing together the puzzle pieces/truths I know, so this is my opinion - but I think it lines up nicely. Basically i'd word the experience as more clarity, shrewdness & greater opportunity costs that follows [as compared to if i were to act in compromise in lust/compromise, where i'd notice several other areas where i experienced "lesser quality of living"/further compromise(s) but not in a good sense - in all honesty, i know/attribute it to those "initial" compromises but i digress too much here, if i were to think back retrospectively, and funny enough, introspectively i picked it up at times if i'm mindful / if i were being mindful (in the moment(s) back then) XD]. That isn't to say though that environment or nature &/or nurture doesn't play a factor (as it does - it would make certain decisions or wills harder/easier), and I think God would surely understand and show Mercy, but it still stands imo-analysis. But wouldn't digress here. P.S.: i guess also the "all-in" analogy came in intuitively, because retrospectively - it's almost like there is an epistemic barrier, and only when "all-in" while stepping in do you realize certain things. E.g. that of purity and its "revelations" (more EO view). but i guess my version is meeting the mystery with rationality to a certain extent (according to my experiential experiences). Or maybe even just not giving into "lust", only after withholding do i realize how inept(latin-sense) lust is, but not during. I think if i recognized in the moment i wouldn't lust though (again truth sets us free - hence why i think its this way tbh imo - that agency is involved so that the reward is its own reward so to speak).

[@sking388]

Also Joe if you read this - sometimes i use you or one interchangeably (but in which case to really denote any), and unless specified through context i'm not actually referencing you for any of the matters XD. it's a method of writing i use in my philosophy papers back in Uni days, and most of my professors were fine with it and didn't penalize that usage as was understood back then. Just want to make this clear - as i notice sometimes i still do that sometimes, and its problematic in so far as it can come across as accusative or presumptuous to others, but i mainly wrote in this way back then to better invite the respective reader to "step into my shoes" so to speak in order to gain insight (in which to judge if the position or hypothetical i suggest makes sense or not / has grounds) That's all - Love & Peace as always :) Just Passing by

[@Topg1]

As I Christian, your video encouraged me to do a lot of self reflection. I apologize for my lack of self awareness.I do agree that sometimes as a community we demonize emotions and intellect. I believe that you can be intellectual and a Christian. I appreciate science and my faith. In my opinion, I never viewed the Bible as a science book. Just like I don’t look at the autobiography of Frederick Douglass as a science book. I value them both as truth. The Bible requires belief in the supernatural.

[@jayseth]

I mean the issue really can be elementary, especially theologically speaking. Some Christians just don't read their bible. I mean, scripture is also a very detailed account of what social conduct is about. Especially in the observance of Jesus in the Gospels, and further progression of the church in the book of Acts. Once you drift from the source material (the Word) that's when you stray into terrible conduct territory (Titus 3:2, Colossians 1:10, Ephesians 5:4)

[@YusefEmuna]

It would be really interesting if you navigated these questions via an observation of Islam. The in-between you're often expressing has had so much navigation, both rational and spiritual, within Islam that I feel would be really useful to your process

[@flightsfeelings]

at this point, i don’t believe any specific religion would provide the balance rather than my approach* to religion.

[@levavarts2889]

Agree on many points raised. I think it's really important that this is highlighted, so thanks Joe. Christians have a responsibility to share and uphold The Truth, according to their convictions but I agree that their love and commitment to The Truth, is never an excuse for poor communication, rudeness or just shere thoughtless comments or insults. We should try to hear other out and learn, whilst being truthful to our own personal convictions. In the large scheme of things, I think society has really lost a few vital qualities, such as, being thoughtful, patient and teachable. On the flipside.... Christians are often single-handedly mocked and historically abused and often very publicly too! It's no excuse for poor communication but a comment or topic raised that has been misunderstood on the Christians part, can often trigger hurt on the Christian community's side too. As a result of ALoT of societal disregard, disrespect and out right discriminatory treatments/ Christophobia... even attempts of death towards our Leaders. (Much broader topic here...) but The Loving nature and example set by Christ has often been interpreted as passivist or weak and has often placed us in very vulnerable positions. I see it from all angles. But to make assumptions about a persons reasoning is wild. Ultimately, we all need the Lord and we cannot even change ourselves (as believing Christians) let alone other people. The Spirit has that Mandate. Agree and thanks Joe!

[@AndSarahAppeared]

As a Christian people need to lead with being human like Jesus did. Jesus came as he was and didn’t lead with I am. He allowed that aspect of him to become an epiphany through connection. He fed people out of compassion not out of pride Christian’s are extremely zealous and prideful believing their text is the divine authority is not going to win over the world 🗺️ having compassion for others because Christ led with Love 💚 is the core value that a lot of ppl miss. Therefore running ppl away from the belief and from God. Create in me a clean heart and renew me a right spirit. Christ wants Christian’s to look inward and love outward because we are all dealing with something and all fall short of the grace. Excellent upload 💚💚💚💚

[@OrganicKeesh]

I feel like you are the epitome of “discomfort” to the regular, “churched” Christian…lol who unfortunately are the ones who dominate internet comment sections with opinions and determinations…because yours is not the cookie cuter experience they’ve been taught to see, assess, and confront to the ultimate goal of conversion. We’ve been taught very well in church how to save people, but not so much how to simply do life with people REGARDLESS of where life takes them, whether closer to God or further away…in the modern day church we have auto-saving mechanism programmed in us, and it’s the default setting. It takes time, thought, humility, exposure, discomfort, challenge to finally turn that off and just beeeee w/ people. Just be. The modern day (dare I say “western”) Christian simply hasn’t been taught (through example and otherwise) long-suffering in fellowship. I learned it later in life myself, the hard way, when my best friend of 10 years started to drift from the faith we both loved. It was hard. And uncomfortable for me. But not once did Holy Spirit lead me to “save” her, leave her, preach to her, nothing. He simply said “just be there for her Kesh…she needs your friendship..” it broke me as a Christian (👈🏾 God and His love getting in the way of my theology). But it made a better human…..and yet and still, the regular, “churched”, modern day, “western”, prone-to-saving-not-existing Christian is in need of the long-suffering in fellowship I’ve been taught to share..so I will share and fellowship with them on their journey as well, and I hope the same will be offered to me. Enlightenment is accessible to us all, and the sum total of our life is not determined by our momentary thoughts, but where the collective of those thoughts leads us throughout the course of our lifetime…

[@lydiamyers6234]

I would love to converse with you in person…❤

[@Godwill3]

I just want to say all the Christians being mean to you, "just dont get it" I cried when I found out you left the faith, not cause I pitied you but because I know you loved "God" and this would be a big transition much similar to a long term relationship break up. Anyone being aggressive or passive aggressive just didnt get the whole "being kind thing"

[@ashleyallen8094]

I like listening to The Shores to gain new perspective of someone who used to believe like me and now doesn’t. Once I get a break from academic reading, I hope to one day read some of the literature you recommend. But you better let ‘em know they don’t want an in-person Joe Solomon clap back!! This man said the most simple sarcastic phrase to me 20 years ago and it still hurts my feelings 😂😂😂 He’s way more kind in the comments, let him live

[@AshleyNyakairu]

I deleted a comment I wrote on it was basically "you has been hardened fr and knowledge is your idol" and I guess you replied like you didn't watch the video ... And I basically did everything you just said again in the comments ... Why did I write it ? I wrote it because when I was where you were when I left Christianity. That's is exactly what I needed to hear . I think if someone told me. I was angry at God. I would of probably been like no im not but I'd self reflect because I genuinely was trying to see why I couldn't believe. I wanted have faith rationally and suddenly. I came to a phase where blind faith did not work for me no more . I wanted to believe GOD logically and a lot people and my friends where not like this . It was weird I both wanted to believe, but couldn't . I would go to church and sing and think we'll did I just make up this God in my mind to believe in this . Was the worship experiences really God . Where the miracles really real or did I just make them up because I wanted to believe in this religion so so bad . Because my identity who I was in essence was fixed around it so of course I'd believe every coincidence was God or that Christianity was made by man to keep us in order ext sometimes I'd pray and be like . This Is literally a fake God it isn't real this is what they want idk its weird when I explain it . But I was always in juxtaposition always and I just felt like Christians didn't get it and a lot of Christians sadly blindly believe anyways I'm on a tangent... Why did I say this . It was not to condemn. Theres is no condemnation in Jesus Christ as you probably know this verse well !!!!! . I will never tell anyone that they are going to hell if they have left. What would that do absolutely nish . I think you think I am one of these Christians you've described in this video. I am not . I'm different 🤪lmao . I just felt the holy Spirit guide me to say that . Because when I was in the state of deconstruction that's what I needed to hear . I needed to hear that there was a reason for this . Idk with all my readings and books I just felt like why the heck has no one tried to deconstruct like this and if they have why is it so few people . I felt like I had cause me to turn from Christ . But it was God . I do know why he harder my heart in the season , but that's a whole Ted talk but at the time I thought it was silly like I came across that Bible verse and I was like nah my heart isnt harderned it's just an excuse for them to get me to believe This lie THIS FALSE GOD . I had not hatred to God either I genuinely just wanted to understand. But idk Christianity and having a relationship with him just gave me the ick I couldn't do it . I'm telling you this as a testimony your not alone . God does this to people he harderns and softens some people's hearts . I'm telling you this only to so you can think about it because it was when I started realizing my heart was truly harderned when I started to ask more questions relating to it idk . It's 10pm where I am my explanation is really bad I'm sorry . I know what your saying the screwtape letters is fiction btw I'm dyslexic lmao , but read it again . Just read it again trust me there's stuff in there idk your probs gonna have some cool combat to this comment wihc makes sense. Alot of what I said was incoherent but again I'm sleep deprived

[@flightsfeelings]

my sister in christ lol…. for you to have read my comments, watched the video, and claimed to have a similar experience and still double down on your comment is… wild lol. not a flex, but there are levels to this. just because you went through your own deconstruction doesn’t mean that you know what i’m considering (clearly you don’t because you don’t even watch the videos lol). telling me that the screwtape letters should be a go-to is proof our deconstruction is happening at different levels and in different spaces. no i’m not reading screwtape again lol CS Lewis is an apologist for people who just need a little reassurance to stay. he’s not a serious apologist or philosopher. he was primarily a novelist and writer and had some anglican theological and apologetic thoughts on the side . even his “lord, liar, lunatic” argument is based on the flimsiest presuppositions and logical fallacies because he’s not serious lol. and he works for some. for you. not for me. “you think i’m one of these christians you’ve described in this video. i am not. im different.” no you’re not lol you’re the literal textbook example of who im describing. you don’t have the desire or capacity to sit with people and you’d rather just spit out your cold theological dogmas as if that’s fruitful to the convo. you reading a CS Lewis novel don’t make us the same. you going through your own “deconstruction” for a few months don’t make us the same. you needed someone to tell you your heart was hard. that’s you. i’m saying, if you would have plainly watched the video you’d realize that’s not at all what i’m interested in hearing or thinking through. sit this one out fam.

[@theycallmetrice]

So I have a few serious questions, please walk with me for a second. Do you think God knows about Joe’s so called hardened heart? If God knows, do you think He can change it? If He can change it, was it necessary for you to tell Joe about it? Now that you’ve told him, how has he responded? Is he grateful? Is he a Christian again? How was your assertion helpful? This is why leading in love is important. When we don’t lead in love, we can do more harm than good by making things worst or not provoking any change at all. A genuine prayer for Joe’s heart would have done more good than this comment. As Christians, we gotta stop trying to be other people’s Holy Spirit. We can’t do what He does. We don’t have the range. Let God do whatever He is doing in Joe’s heart without your interference. He is more than capable. He saw Joe’s journey and knew how it would turn out long before you or I did. Let God do the work on people’s hearts.

[@sking388]

Yoo Ashley - i think CS Lewis has a gifted intellect per-say (a great fiction-fantasy novelist & has interesting/insightful thoughts, and in such light an intellectual thinker) - but that Joe is definitely right, in that it's never that clear cut. Just because he's a good thinker doesn't mean he doesn't have his own potential short-comings (as do all of us). I bring this up because to suggest one person as a be-it-end-it-all authority, is definitely something that should be cautioned (for good reasons, even if granting valuable insight). Not that you can't suggest a good-book recommendation per-say, i think the point i'm really getting at is that's two very different things. For instance, CS Lewis spoke highly & referenced George MacDonald as his "master" - in terms of thought/writing - yet they clearly delineate in certain views, e.g. regarding "Hell" & more (but that alone shouldn't suffice, perhaps as a first-pass, what's called for though is actually delving deeper into exegesis & theological territories as a whole - on eschatology, soteriology, et al. - these things should go hand-in-hand imo afterall, as truth should be synergistic & consistent - if we're working with the truth to begin with, so it should be analyzed/approached as such then if this is something we wish to investigate, and so carefully, on the same token - if it's not true to begin with, i find it then as you map other truths to it you'll discover more of the falsities in light of the truths per-say): CS Lewis is probably closer to Tim Mackie in his views of Hell, yet i think even Mackie is very careful to allow for different interpretations on what this means (probably owing to his scholarship in hebrew & more, but probably Greek as well, and i was surprised and delighted to see this - that he encourages/challenges rethinking of meanings & terms), and as a result he's often [intentionally] ambiguous about these kinds of things - in prudence though imo [which is good]. I think following CS Lewis' line of thought, it probably hints at the idea that there would be some that remain in Hell "for eternity" (many renderings/interpretations again for a broad perspective, but basically non-stop in his view), but MacDonald would disagree. If i take CS Lewis' description, Even if it's locked from the inside as Lewis would describe, i think on the same vein that a different/better eschatology imo (as worked out by Bulgakov or MacDonald) yields a completely different conclusion. This just goes to show it's not all that clear-cut at all [insight should be carefully analyzed & weighed - in different dimensions & weighing them altogether (as well as in different respects); what i mean to say here is even if [e.g. granting] Lewis is closer to truth about one particular aspect, the rest doesn't necessarily follow - it could go any way, whatever is true/the truth may be - which may be something that is completely different to us / what we have in mind]. So the point i'm trying to make is it isn't that clear cut at all, and it may be tempting to default to one or another (but caution is called-for here). And Even the passage on Hardening isn't as clear-cut as one might think, but is deep rooted in many different interpretations (Both dependent on the rendering of meaning & the whole theological outlook, as a whole - here the initial could influence the latter, and the latter the initial, in my estimation, a sort of trial & error and whole-picture approach is the most prudent thing imo). In essence, there's many schools of thought & ambiguities. I guess the truth starts off where it's clearest though (& that may grant more insight / guidance into the rest so to speak). And you're right that you're different - But we're all different after all :) 💙 Same but different haha - we're all Humans and united as such, but we're each different with different experiences & views (and make-up!) But here I think Joe is really trying to wrestle with and investigate things (as do I & many others, which is why i really appreciate him - Honestly, at the end of it I don't know what would come of me or any, but I can only hope for Truth & at the very-least to stay True to myself so-to-speak), and it's not helpful to make a be-it-end-all case on one book/author (Unless you have good reasons for it, and i'd be willing to hear you out on that XD) Also if you paid attention to Lewis' own conversion, after talks with Tolkien and his other colleagues/friends in his younger days, in his own introspection / description [which i find to be a key distinction in his thoughts/i'd say one of his strengths] is more of a mythical one & i don't think he was able to pin-point it to any particular intellectual conversation/talk. But that of wind & scenery [he'd probably call these his encounters]. That may be onto something or not. I think one thing that Lewis was getting at, but perhaps not explicated as such per say, is this sense of wonder & discovery. In the sense that in our scientific discoveries or inventions, we're merely just discovering things, if one is to "come up" with mathematical or really any formulae, it is but in "finding out" / discovery. This reinstills within me a sense of humbleness and wonder, [which i think is crucial to any pursuit], and a good way to live imo [as i think it reframes the experience most truthfully/accurately]. Honestly, in my walk I've come across many great thinkers (in sciences, mathematics-but more so modal logic, religion, arts, philosophies, etc.) all of different backgrounds and beliefs (atheists, christians, agnostics, etc.). So I think when it comes to faith and its experience, there's probably something else at play here (referencing the above), I have a theory on how to explicate it perhaps but lest to rob it / deny it of its magic & wonder through unfair reduction by a mere mortal such as myself :) Also i think i can relate a bit to what you're saying Ashley, in that at times i remember it used to be tiring (of intellectual pursuits), but i don't see it anymore so. In the light of curiosity and wonder per-say. I also found that you can learn a lot by reading through for instance the replies of scholars to one another (sometimes in the face of disagreement, it would be best to see how one answers for oneself, and to try to weigh what is said from opposing side(s) - and not the authors themselves/schools of thought - so it's done fairly & in good light, and also sometimes Google searches aren't the best - i remember way back i'd just look up answers on gotquestions or blogs, there are dedicated forums through which may be of better help/use, e.g. where scholars engage - as a first-pass it could yield onto rewarding fruits in further pursuits), and also to venture beyond and read those of the others, and altogether to wrestle with it in fairness to the best of ability. Plus never be too quick to judge or come to a certain idea quickly, but a more slow & prudent process, almost as if holding onto a belief only if from conviction. A simple epistemic rule that i found of help/use may benefit you: which is simply to hold onto the belief that [in all-honesty to yourself] makes the most sense, because that's the best that you could do afterall [a more stoic characterization - but at its base its basically an epistemic theory that involves probabilistic factors/thinking], and when faced with new-challenging ones, simply to work them out in love & prudence [with courage & wonder], and follow where "it" leads. Basically just following your conviction, but with a good temperament [courage, honesty(& with mindfulness), openness(a sense of willingness to pursuit), & shrewdness to the best of one's ability in the face of all the possibilities you may come across]. But in my own estimation, i think much yet remains a mystery, but with that wonder :) & hope + Love of course XD

[@leahjames6870]

Ma’am, what in the world are you talking about, you are all over the place😩

[@13579hee]

​@@leahjames6870 That's a Christian for you! 😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[@ashalley]

Thank you

[@tbg78714]

All of this! And I think it’s okay to be mad about some of ways following religion caused us to feel and that be enough to leave the faith. I never had any factual qualms about the evidence in the Bible. I believed it intellectually, but it did nothing to change my heart and affections toward God. I got tired of trying to make myself love God in a way that I honestly didn’t. I got tired of how guilty and shameful and fraudulent I felt because of it. That was more than enough for me to leave, and I’m better for it. What may be empowering for some may be disempowering for others, and that should be okay.

[@candacejordan1816]

I am sorry for the hate that you have received from Christians. It’s unhelpful in my mind and you seem to have a lot of valid questions. This is coming from someone who was once agnostic and is now Christian. I have a question for you however. No pressure to answer if you’re uncomfortable btw. What caused you to adopt the Christian belief system in the first place? Not trying to suggest it was a false conversion, I just want to hear your story. Im interested in the beginning of your journey before you parted ways with Christianity.

[@flightsfeelings]

because i loved jesus.

[@jaybrick8973]

I think Christians should be praying for you if they feel you are in the wrong not asking who hurt you because everyone has been hurt by something its part of the human experience.

[@theycallmetrice]

Joseph. Talk to the people one time. You out here preaching sir. Somebody turn to your neighbor and say “sit down. or shut up!” 😂 Nah but for real this is straight facts. Jesus has charged us to love God and love people. The Bible says to love our neighbor as ourself. Baby if you don’t love yourself just say that cuz some of us do a terrible job at loving people. Treat people how you want to be treated and I can’t be convinced that some of y’all really want to be treated the way you treat people. Stop trying to do God’s job of drawing people to Him. Decide whether you finna plant or water but let God do His job of giving the increase. God doesn’t need you to beat people over the head with scripture. He needs you to represent Him well by having your fruit of the Spirit on display. If you ain’t got no fruit don’t worry about where Joe finna spend eternity, you have more pressing issues. Worry about yourself. Mind your business. Work out your own salvation. Look to Jesus as your example, who did He have the most smoke for? The Pharisees. Why? Cuz of their religious spirits. They were so pressed to correct and judge everybody else that they couldn’t see that their own hearts were far from God. Let God be the judge of people’s hearts and decide where they’re gonna spend eternity. You worry about your own heart posture and whether your life is one that He will be pleased with. Joe, you alright with me man. Run your race sugar. I’m happy to just sit and hear whatever you want to share about your journey. I know that God sees and knows you and your journey so you are in good hands. I’m always rooting for you.

[@trillj0sh]

🔥🖤

[@MrAveryBrown94]

Thank you for this, Joe. I’ve been in a recent space of deconstructing, too. I share a lot of these same sentiments. 🤍