Chromatic Myths and Tips 3

[@fouellet1701]

I really like your unbiased exposé on chromatic B-griff v. C-griff v. piano accordion choice. I read somewhere that the piano accordion was a marketing effort from the accordion makers after WWII to increase their sales by offering an instrument that was more affordable than a piano yet could re-use some of the same technique, and have piano teachers acquire a larger client base. The only snag is that if you already know how to play piano, only half of your skills will apply, as you also need to learn how the bass side is played! Also, a big advantage of the chromatic, as noted in the video, is its wider range (50+ notes on a medium to full-size instrument) and its "isomorphic" configuration where one fingering for a melody or chord can usually be transposed instantly just by moving your hand a few buttons away from the original position. My first experience with B-griff was on a big 5-row Weltmeister and I sort of instantly got the twist at finding notes, intervals and arpeggios. I found it so natural to put my index finger on a C button and keep going up and down the scales from left to right. For example, like some Russian methods suggest, for a basic C scale, we do (with thumb=1, index=2) 2-4-3-4-3-2-4-2. I later acquired a big Paolo Soprani C-griff and I have used Manu Maugain's method for the treble side, and I sort of got stuck!!! My brain was set to the B-griff left to right flow and I just could not get used to reverse the patterns. But that is just me. I know fabulous C-griff players who play jazz and classical music so it's not the system, it's my brain LOL! I later acquired a 3-row Russian Bayan box and find it so intuitive to play, especially all those Slavic tunes with lots of minor key melodies. I understand the idea behind mastering scales, etc. but I find it that on a chromatic isomorphic keyboard, it is more important to develop fingerings for arpeggios and chords than scales! Music teachers will scorn me for saying this, but most tunes I play have melodies based on arpeggios and only use scales going down in the return parts of tunes. One simple example: the famous "Twinkle twinkle little star" tune played in C, starts with 3 notes of a C6 chord, followed by a down scale back to C. Learning major and minor chords from the beginning is, to me, as important as learning scales. When we teach kids how to speak, we do not teach them the alphabet and the grammar, we teach them how to speak and later get to the technicalities. Same with music, we can combine fun, practicality and theory. Your mileage may vary! Thanks for this amazing video series.

[@orezenoowt9265]

I have just started on the accordion. The note layout of the piano keyboard seems, at least at first sight, to be well organized, and one would conclude easy to learn. The note layout of the chromatic button keyboard seems, at least at first sight, haphazardly organized, and one would conclude difficult to learn. However, your excellent presentation has convinced me that in fact, the opposite is true. So, against the advice of a local accordion club who claimed that I could never learn it because I won’t be able to find books or a teacher, I purchased an inexpensive starter C-Griff chromatic accordion, as well as the Maugain and Palmer-Hughes books that you recommended in another video. I couldn’t be happier. You were correct. The chromatic is actually easy to learn. I am progressing quickly. I play simple practice pieces from Palmer-Hughes Book #1 open mike at the accordion club and they all think I’m a genius.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

Thank you for sharing your story. We wish you success on the chromatic.

[@bonifaz3095]

The traditional keyboard layout IS well organized, and also it IS easy to learn - you can master it within two minutes. The difficulty comes in when your tonic is not a or c or rather not within a minor or c major, because then you have to concentrate instead of just moving your fingers as you do in the key of c. So the actual disadvantage of this layout in general is the difficulty of ad hoc transposition! This could be easily solved by making all keys the same size, then you would theoretically have the most efficient keyboard style, but in reality it would get just too big, you would have trouble playing chords and the keyboard would have to be gigantic. The traditional keyboard is really well thought-out and is skillfully put together (the keys have different widhs!), it is just our concept of "musical keys" in which music is written, that causes trouble. But regarding the accordion I would suggest anybody to choose a chromatic button system even if you were to play only in a minor or c major, because you play the discant side with one hand only and thus will have a rather small interval range of maybe an undecime or even less (if you are a woman) on the so called piano keyboard.

[@MrEmiosk]

Hah, that's where you learn on your own. I am biased in that I myself free hand my instruments until I learn what sound comes from what button/key/hole and then play what I want to play, which is often just random noises until they sting a melody.

[@CiceroINFJ]

Such a great and informative video! Thank you so much for putting it together and sharing it with us.

[@tumbleweedtunes]

I play B-griff system (grew up in Russia), so some clarifications about fingering here. Usually, when you play C major scale, you don't use thumb. For C major or any other key started on 3d line you would only need three fingers to play it conveniently and naturally: index, middle, ring. When playing on regular three-line B-griff keyboard, thumb is rarely used, and in most of the cases it only plays supporting role for your hand to let it slide along the griff smoothly. It's basic principle of fingering that's been teached to us, as it's better on learning stage. Thumb is more frequently used in complex melodies and five lines keyboards (like the one on video), however 5-lines keyboard bayans are more expensive hence less encountered.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

Thank you for this clarification. Here in America there is little information about the B Griff system. In this video we did not intend to demonstrate the best fingering. We simply wanted to show how the same fingering could be used in certain different key signatures,

[@jamesreed1969]

Саша здравствуйте! Меня тоже зовут Саша. Я играю на клавишном акордионе и хочу попробовать освоить chromatic button. Какую систему вы посоветуете, B or C? Я живу в штатах и в принципе могу купить любой инструмент, кроме конечно Юпитеррв и АККО) У востановил не мало piano accordions и в принципе знаком с устройством. Заранее спасибо за совет!

[@tumbleweedtunes]

@@jamesreed1969 Выбирать между этими двумя раскладками пожалуй только есть смысл по социальному принципу: какие баянисты есть среди знакомых :-) B griff стандартная раскладка в восточноевропейских странах и на Балканах. C griff обычное явление в запаной европе и сев. америке. Если бы я жил в США и не умел еще играть, просто брал бы С. А так как я уже играю на B, то B и брал бы.

[@jamesreed1969]

@@tumbleweedtunes понял, спасибо!

[@CiceroINFJ]

@@jamesreed1969 Добрый день. И я тоже Саша (уже третий по счету). Я раньше играл на аккордеоне и сейчас собираюсь учиться играть на баяне. Я тоже нахожусь в США и выбрал B system (а не C system.) И скажу вам почему. В России море учебников и самоучителей на русском языке для пятирядного баяна. Многие произведения в самоучителях показаны с проставленными пальцами (то же самое, что и в учебниках по игре на аккордеоне). Следующий момент - это репертуар. Найти ноты знакомых "нам" мелодий будет легче в России и они будут с проставленными пальцами (если такие проставлены) для B system. Я уже с этим столкнулся. И последнее - найти в России хорошего педагога по игре на баяне будет очень легко. Я нашел спациалиста в Новосибирске и он занимается по 45 минут / 1.000 рублей по Skype. Найти учителя баяниста в Америке на B system, да еще и по достуной цене, будет очень сложно. Поэтому я выбрал B System баян для занятй в США. Успехов вам!

[@daisyduke7473]

You’re a good teacher!! I have zero knowledge of a button accordion and really suck at my 1x!! I’m a 75 year old wanna be accordionist whose only background is playing the trombone for 8 years!! Struggling with self teaching. Keeps me busy along with the desire to move forward during my social security years.

[@CiceroINFJ]

Oh, I recognize Yuri Char from Malta! He is awesome! Thank you for sharing him playing French musette as well. How fun! He is an extraordinary musician (he plays several instruments) and is an awesome, awesome guy.

[@yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees]

Молодец, мужик! Очень понятно объясняешь! You have teacher talent! I didn’t expect that I understand different type of accordeon from american person. You explain very clearly. Thank you very much. I am learning to play melodica and it is real pain to transpone melody in another key. I wish there will be melodica with chromatic buttons. P.S. There is no russian amazon because you can get tons of accordeon books on russian torrents for free ;-)

[@danielbauml7435]

Like your videos very much! I got so many useful information and many different and well balanced arguments out of your essays. Thank you!

[@tom5216]

These videos have been great. I’m a piano accordion player who has always thought that I should have gone the chromatic route for exactly the reason you highlight. I.e. transposition of keys. I also have a damaged pinky on my right hand which is curved inwards making it difficult to stretch up to the black keys with it without turning my hand and throwing out the positioning of the rest of my hand. I have always found music where this is necessary extremely difficult. The chromatic system is by its configuration a flatter landscape and I think this would have made my playing life much easier. Too old now, 66 so Ill just have live with the piano accordion though I do feel I could have reached a higher level of play on the chromatic. Thanks for the explanation.

[@stelladavis1798]

It seems to me like b-griff would be more natural. Because when thinking of holding an accordion (I don't have one) your hands tend to curve outwards. This leads me to believe that it would be easier to play, and easier to use the thumb with (since it falls in a line with the rest of the fingers). But I don't really know that much, I've only played a diatonic accordion, and not that often. I'm a guitarist, but I saw some classical accordion sheet music and it looked so foreign and weird that I was intrigued (it was De Profundis, with all the bellows shaking and slides and crazy techniques). And now I want to learn how it works so that I can write études for it. It seems like it would be the best polyphonic instrument ever, but accordion is not mainstream in classical music so no one talks about it. With five rows of easier keys than piano, and a free bass system, you could play some crazy counterpoint if you study it, like I've seen people play Bach's "Ricercare a 6" on a piano somehow (it's a 6-voice fugue for organ, which has 2-5 keyboards and a pedalboard you play with your feet: one voice for each foot, and then two voices per hand) and I though that was difficult, but on accordion it would probably be a breeze (in comparison). And one of the reasons I don't really like keyboard instruments is that I feel they're not as expressive. You can't do vibrato, harmonics, or change the tone color by playing the strings in different spots like you can on a string instrument. But you CAN do vibrato on an accordion, you can adjust the articulation, you can change the timbre, all that.

[@LoveAccordions]

I have never before seen such a clear and concise explanation of the B-Griff system. Also, I agree that it is a myth that one system, B-Griff or C-Griff, is better than the other. They are both, as you say, different versions of the same chromatic design layout, and they both share the very same advantages over the piano keyboard. I happen to play the C-Griff version, but only because my first acoustic chromatic accordion happened to be a C-Griff. It wasn't until years later that I learned that the B-Griff system even existed. Thank you Leon.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

Thank you for your confirmation. I’m happy to hear this from a chromatic player of many years. The more we communicate all aspects of the chromatic system, the more informed a choice new accordionists can make. Of course, the piano accordion will always be the more popular choice in America. However, for those who wish to have more tonal range in a smaller, lighter instrument, who like the ability to play in different key signatures using the same fingering patterns, and who are brave enough to split from the norm, the chromatic may be worth considering.

[@swietymikolajbb]

@@RoxysMusicStore "brave enough to split from the norm" : ))) I thought music required musicality, not braveness.. Thanks for your GREAT explanation and advises!

[@alexandermethven]

Well ,composed .i know nothing of button c key accordion box ,im scottish accordion bronze ,.of trad,section perth ...2000.i liked your accordion.👍👍👍

[@serbia-ll1io]

Here you go. B griff lesson book accordionlife.com/product/serbian-accordion-method-book-one/

[@bonifaz3095]

Actually, there are two b-griff systems: the Russian bayan b-griff and the German b-griff (which is rare). The difference lays in the freebass system only: The Russian system has the deep notes on the bottom and requires different fingering than on the right side (like if you were playing the pianoforte from left to right), the German system has them on the top and mirrowed (like the c-griff system) which makes it easier to play both hands together. The Roland bass side can be configured to a melody bass!!

[@monsterparty5324]

This is excellent. Thank you.

[@MST339]

I play PC (computer) keyboard, and B-griff makes fingering more natual (chromatic scale progressively flowing from left to right across letter rows). Playing scales in C-griff on a PC keyboard would require arkward finger twisting.

[@CiceroINFJ]

To answer your question, I don't think it makes any difference in whether B or C system is better suited for any particular style or genre of music. I think it would really come down to training and the overall mastery of the instrument by the person who plays it, regardless of what style of chromatic system the accordion has.

[@Philantrope]

Well explained. Thank you!

[@wernerrisi8203]

From the historic view is the C grip the original and the B grip is its copy in the mirror look. In Switzerland they do call the B grip as "backward chromatic" (rückwärts chromatisch). But to play one or the other layout, C or B, there is only to say that both do represnt all the CBA adventages and the results will be at both the same. It is just all about either or.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

I don't know which came first C or B. There is even a third version that is used in Finland. But as you say, they all provide the same playing advantages and results. The only differences are that the notes are in different places and they progress in different directions.

[@wernerrisi8203]

It were the piano makers in Vienna, Austria more than 150 years ago who did work out the accordion ...and its button layout = C system. There starts the history of the Chromatic Button Accordion CBA.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

@@wernerrisi8203 Thanks for the history.

[@kid992]

Hi great presentation. noticed the 'bumpy' c and f notes on your b griff layout were not in the correct places. changing buttons from c to b layout needs 3 extra 'plain' whites and means moving over half of them around. am enjoying learning bayan but still only play to public on PA. Ron, England.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

How observant you are. Since I myself do not play B-Griff, I did not think to ensure that the C and F notes were “bumpy” style buttons. Configuring my instrument to B-Griff was only a temporary change for the purpose of demonstrating note allocations and corresponding white and black buttons in that system. Besides, not all accordions (my Weltmeister being one example) have such “bumpy” buttons anyway. Are you sure that in the B-Griff system most accordionists prefer C and F to be "bumpy" rather than some other notes? They probably do, but I admit that I myself don't really know. Leon

[@colinhorsfall1678]

my righthand thumb is damaged so i can see a distinct advantage for me to play the B griff

[@fdagpigj]

Where can I read more about the finnish system you mentioned?

[@RoxysMusicStore]

We really do not know much about the Finnish system. We could not find any information on it. Although we do see some people using it, as in the following video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5eXgK2Lr8eUd8k You can tell that it is the Finnish system by the fact that the three adjacent white buttons are in the second row. Other than that, we don't know anything about it. We recommend that you try doing some research the Internet. Our final advice is to choose an instrument for which you can find material that will help you learn to play it.

[@teasdaye]

I know I'm replying to a 2-year-old comment, but in case anyone curious reads this, the Finnish system is essentially C-griff with the button row layout shifted by one downwards (row 2 becomes row 1 etc) so that G is on the first row (making it "G-griff") and C in the middle. Basically, you can kind of emulate it a little with a C-griff by ignoring row 1. Incidentally, as a Finnish accordionist myself, I grew to think of the three middle rows as the "base" with the two outer rows as the extras. No idea if other players see it similarly, I never thought to ask, but to me it feels like a natural consequence of that middle C.

[@MrIridium192]

You've nailed it! Thank you!

[@TechTins_Projects]

If books were all equally available, Why would you have chosen B-griff?

[@RoxysMusicStore]

Because at the time many people told me that the B-Griff system was better, and since I didn't know any better, I would have followed their advice. But now I feel that it would have made no difference.

[@reidarlange316]

The b-griff system is the most common in Norway.

[@jonfitzgerald6142]

Just for your information Maugein is pronounced "Maw jan" and the make high end instruments!

[@fouellet1701]

I find the B system much more "natural" than the C system, the fingers just flow naturally ! With C we keep getting our fingers crossed!

[@RoxysMusicStore]

Many people say exactly the same thing about the B system, and others say the same thing about the Finnish system. My experience doing product support in the accordion community over the years is that the system that most people feel most comfortable with is the one that they started with. I have occasionally seen a person switch systems, and you may be one yourself, but this occurs only rarely. The vast majority of the time, what a person starts with is what they think is most natural. If that were not true, then these different systems would not exist. If there truly were a better one, it would have by now replaced the other two. The main challenge in deciding which system to learn, French, Russian, or Finnish, is not which is more natural. They are all equally natural. The challenge is which system can you find books and instruction for in the country where you live. In other words, which system can you most easily learn in the country where you live.

[@fouellet1701]

@@RoxysMusicStore : Indeed a personal preference, I have accordions with C and B systems and I see people playing expertly on a C layout, but for me I find the B system easier to use.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

@@fouellet1701 If you are passionate about the B system and you'd like to see more people play it, we recommend that you help promote it by advising people where to get method books and how to find a teacher. Here in the US, there are no method books on the B system that we, as a music store, could in good conscience recommend to our customers. The little that we have seen is terribly inadequate. Indeed, had there been anything available when I started I probably would have chosen the B system, as you did. But I found no educational material on the B system comparable to what is available from France for the C system. After spending good money on any instrument, it's pretty demoralizing to sit in a room all by yourself and try to learn an instrument with absolutely no guidance. Obviously, those musicians who are passionate about the B system have not done their job in helping guarantee the success of their instrument here in America. And the same seems true for France. From your name I suspect you are from France. If so, I congratulate you on mastering an instrument for which so little information is available in your country. Your musical talents certainly exceed mine. For me, and for the vast majority of Roxy's customers, without high quality instructional material we have no chance of learning the instrument. Luckily for those who purchase a Roland V-Accordion, they can configure it to any of the world's different chromatic systems. Thank you for sharing your passion for the B system.

[@fouellet1701]

@@RoxysMusicStore : I am originally from Montreal, Canada but I have been living in Toronto, Canada for many years. I play mostly Celtic traditional music on diatonic boxes, but also like Slavic and Balkan music, hence my attraction to the B system. I own 2 C-system accordions that I rescued from dereliction and restored, but I much prefer the B's, especially the 3-row Bayan. There is indeed almost nothing available on the B system in North America, and there are probably some historical reasons for that as that system is still associated with the Eastern Bloc and is believed to have been laid out in Russia about 100 years ago. There are a handful videos on KZbin in English but I do not find them very useful... Perhaps I should do something !

[@RoxysMusicStore]

@@fouellet1701 Congratulations on your accomplishment mastering the B System chromatic while living in Canada where there is little in the way of instructional material. For sure anything you can do would help promote the instrument.

[@royking7298]

There is a text on “how to play bayan”. I donatednit to charity or I’d give the authors name.

[@RoxysMusicStore]

I'm sure there are a few, but why is it that over the years I have never received a single title from anyone? The few that do exist must be extremely rare. That's not much help for people who want to learn a new instrument. Besides, many people learn differently, so it would be nice if there were many different books, as there are for the C-Griff system. If people who promote the B-Griff system want it to become popular in America, they need to somehow get good method books produced in the English language, otherwise very few Americans will consider it.

[@nikosboul-akk]

i play c griff but my logic on fingering is 70% b griff