Civil War Confederate President Wasn’t Tried, Why It Matters In Trump Case | Amanpour and Company

Donald Trump made history as the first U.S. president to be criminally indicted. But he is not the first ex-president to undergo prosecution. In her latest piece for The New Yorker, Jill Lepore argues that the failure of the American government to prosecute Jefferson Davis, former president of the Confederacy, more than 150 years ago, could hold lessons for America as Trump awaits trial. Lepore joins the show.
Originally aired on December 6, 2023
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Amanpour and Company features wide-ranging, in-depth conversations with global thought leaders and cultural influencers on the issues and trends impacting the world each day, from politics, business and technology to arts, science and sports. Christiane Amanpour leads the conversation on global and domestic news from London with contributions by prominent journalists Walter Isaacson, Michel Martin, Alicia Menendez and Hari Sreenivasan from the Tisch WNET Studios at Lincoln Center in New York City.
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[@Ryan-Fkrepublicnz]

We can't "move on" from an insurrection that is STILL ONGOING

[@NopeUghUghAbsolutelyNot]

The Southern education system is one way they've kept their insurrection alive and well

[@kevinjenner9502]

Coups are best left to the experts…CIA Coups overthrowing the sovereign governments of Iran, Guatemala, Congo, Dominican Republic, S Vietnam, Brazil, Chile…

[@lynnerose7891]

It’s been ongoing since the CSA. What do you think white nationalists are?

[@4huntinfun]

As far as I'm concerned, Trump should be permanently exiled to Somalia.

[@bobbart4198]

@@4huntinfun .. Why the HELL would THEY want him ? ..

[@PoggeB13]

If we average American citizens had done what Trump did-including defying subpoenas and gag orders-we would be in jail. That's the whole point of holding him accountable. No one should be above the law.

[@oneleggedguy]

@@bluesroom1 proof maga, evidence, facts , nothing in 3 years can you nasty thug Rep can find! You need education or prison, thinking you were there 3 years ago ?

[@mosijahi3096]

@@bluesroom1what ?

[@jacksimpson-rogers1069]

Not only that, but This One should be below the Indian caste of the Untouchables.

[@lwells3937]

The Rosenbergs got executed for handling one document. Trump stole boxes and boxes

[@rcampbell4967]

Do you believe the same about the alleged crimes of Biden? What about Hilary Clinton who the Justice Department flat out said committed a crime with her private server which was hacked by China when she was SOS? I'll save you the trouble of replying. You don't.

[@chrisjohnston4165]

I have been saying that the Confederacy was never effectively dealt with after the Civil War and that is why we are in such a bad place in this country, and I just happen to run across this writer for the New Yorker, Jill LePore. WOW I am so glad I saw this.

[@dthom4719]

Someone was just on pbs speaking on this hes done a book and he said the same they shoukdnt have been jist let off and even rewarded after the civil war. Now theyre out to do it again after Jan 6. If they had been punished as they should of been perhaps history wouldnt be repeating itself. Stop all that sedition and treason in its tracks

[@user-jv5cu4hz3q]

It's bad education that caused this.

[@user-jv5cu4hz3q]

The south is stuck. They need to move forward, but are afraid to remove the old famous buildings, their claim to fame. Consequently, rot ensues, and poverty.

[@PJ-qf9qr]

Yep. And we had the rise of KKK terrorism and oppression against black Americans; the rise of The Lost Cause of the Confederacy mythology; the rise of monuments to the Confederate States of America; and the creation of a full-blown racial caste system known as Jim Crow laws.

[@annepeiffer-mgr8312]

Book recommendation: _How the South Won the Civil War_ by Heather Cox Richardson

[@madarab37]

Davis was imprisoned at Fort Monroe in a room with an American, not Confederate flag. The room is currently empty. Trump should be the next tenant.

[@elizabethcowles7535]

I also blame President Ford for pardoning President Nixon.

[@dweb]

Indeed. Accountability abstained for a certain set of entitled citizens.

[@trinleywangmo]

Always had me wonder what Nixon lorded over him... or was it, that his advisors told him, not to "set precedent"?

[@newyawkgiants5877]

Same with Lincoln,kind hearts get taken advantage of and abused. You want to be nice, but then the taking keeps on going. I’m dealing with ungratefulness now.

[@newyawkgiants5877]

Kennedy assassination-LBJ/Hoover were attempting to destroy the country;peace and equality. Lincoln N-Illinois Johnson S-Tennessee Kennedy N-Massachusetts Johnson S-Texas. Ended Reconstruction Assassinated Civil Rights leaders. How many Voting oppressions do we need? How many Civil Rights Acts do we need?

[@johnnyllooddte3415]

nixon was never indicted,, he resigned

[@Merzui-kg8ds]

People are "democracy lazy". People have been lulled into believing that democracy is an entity on autopilot, and they can sit and watch democracy happen to them. Democracy is a participation sport. Democracy depends on the participation of "reasonable persons". Democracy is kind of like a garden. If you do not watch the garden, tend the garden, water the garden, till the garden, nurture the garden, you will eventually wake up to an entanglement of weeds. What we have now in our country is an untended garden. Soon enough, people will find out what it is like to live without democracy.

[@jkacz9466]

Bingo 🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯 and right on point with a lackadaisical mindset has put we, the people in our current mess. Outsourcing jobs through NAFTA, FCC VS CITIZENS UNITED, and a host of other problems is our current fiasco. Politicians have sold the people down the river for a buck.

[@bartsolari5035]

@@jkacz9466 Panem et Circenses

[@jkacz9466]

@@bartsolari5035 , That's exactly what America has become. A neverending clown 🤡🎪🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🎪🎪🎠🎡🎢🎢🎢🎢🎢🎢🎢🎢 show. Clowns to the left, and jokers to the right. The two party game system. Really a business party with two factions known as Republican and Democrat. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄. USELESS!!!!

[@davidhollenshead4892]

NAFTA allowed for more trade between Mexico, America and Canada. People complain that Mexicans gained jobs without considering the US made products they buy. Case in point is household electrical parts. The US got cheaper outlets, switches and wiring but Mexican homes were wired for electricity using US made breaker boxes, breakers, etc. so both nations benefited... @@jkacz9466

[@greenbeans575]

"You don't know what you've got until it's gone" (re: democracy) will be a rude awakening for half of the citizens of our country if he is reelected.

[@orangeofmars2835]

Looks like the Supreme Court can now put an end to the whole question by rightly ruling that a former President is not immune to prosecution.

[@melissahouse3488]

Just like they sided with your baby butchering holocaust... They want to avoid death. They will let him run. Otherwise Biden will be removed, it will lead into civil war. Evidently that is what democrats have declared for some time now.

[@matthewstearns289]

If they don't that means Joe Biden can do whatever he wants.

[@dthom4719]

Asap if the supreme bums i mean court doesnt make sure the treasonous ex pres isnt tried and never let to be pres again then we know we are over run by seditionist bought and paid for judges and we better stop it or americas over as any sort of democracy.

[@irmasimmons172]

REALLY ?

[@upAcreekCAM]

This is so important! What an incredible set of historical facts and insight. Thank you Amanpour and Co!

[@flickwtchr]

So you didn't notice the rhetorical "Those are very strong words" putting the notion of holding Trump accountable on the defensive? I certainly noticed it and it is par for the course for Amanpour and Company that services everything neoliberal (Reaganism, Thatcherism, Neoliberalism......all the same thing) and will shift to a fascist Trump approved media outlet in a heartbeat.

[@philipcollier7805]

Rule of law doesn't mean jack sh!t if we let Trump walk.

[@christophernadzeika7288]

He'd have to be convicted of actual crimes; not the trumped-up BS that the corrupt DOJ and the state attorneys are attempting to use.

[@KeithRowell-ix2qg]

So Biden and his family should be in jail

[@orlock5510]

Thankyou

[@howard7689]

First you have to be able to provide evidence of a crime that you didn't just make up

[@KeithRowell-ix2qg]

O shut up. Biden and his family are going to jail. Ha ha ha .

[@grumpyolddude439]

One key difference being...Davis was not President of the United States.

[@Ryan-Fkrepublicnz]

Another: this insurrection is ongoing

[@kshepard52]

We agree, see my post.

[@edwardlucke634]

tell garland that .

[@JB-uv4hm]

Which they discussed.

[@alphaomega8373]

it was a version, yes he was.

[@Thrankson]

The cost of NOT holding Trump will be greater than any temporary respite the nation may enjoy, I think.

[@Ahtaht227]

that’s a fact. I’ve been saying rip the band aid off and get it over with. This year will be wild😔

[@kollettebryant3432]

Thank you for your INSIGHT and speaking to the issue of not being held accountable. I'm a black American and have ALWAYS wondered WHY the Confederacy was NOT prosecuted for crimes against America. I'm a mother also. I know that when someone, even a child, is not corrected appropriately for wrong doing, it emboldens them. They think maybe there is NO punishment after all, and then they go a little further/deeper into wrong practices and deceive themselves into thinking they can get away with whatever. I believe that's why those who sympathize with the Confederacy feel they can so loudly and publicly proclaim their belief and behavior. IT HAD NOT BEEN DEALT WITH! And, we again suffer the consequences disproportionately! Right the wrong, please.

[@buelan.6525]

You are absolutely correct. And he keeps proving he’s above the law and will take revenge on anyone who disagrees with him. And, like a bad dog who’s never corrected, he only gets more and more aggressive and dangerous.

[@tinynijman9077]

I totally agree with you !

[@Iprevail1972]

Right what wrong, and how? Who would you go after? What you are implying is as abhorrent as what the Civil War was fought over. Are you so polarized and ignorant that you’d support genocide because of your woefully misinformed opinion? Or is it something else? Shame on you and those who think like you.

[@ericvanjames8395]

🤔. . . 👍

[@willstorm8331]

It would have taken an army to keep the jury safe but we wouldn't be facing another trump admin and Nixon would have gone to jail.

[@rickglorie]

America, like every country, has skeletons in the closet that if not adressed come out every once and a while.

[@rodanone4895]

i feel the same. let the unrest occur. then quell it outright and aggressively. I'm tired of people in red hats holding this country hostage... do people not get that Lincoln was assassinated to prevent that trial from happening among other things... remember the vice president was a Democrat named Andrew Johnson. this was supposed to make it a reunion instead of reconstruction... the far right is always rabid, and the left lets them... look at bush in Florida. gore really won. look at the supreme Court, they let the GOP run all over them with fake rules.... this is the historic rabid nature of greed in this country. they tried to coup Roosevelt, they killed the kennedy boys, they killed MLK and Malcolm X... what you point at is just another example of squashing progressive politics in America to "keep civility"... while one side is anything but with impunity over and over.

[@sharongillesp]

@@debmccorkle4845 ???????

[@kennethc2466]

I thank these hosts for openly admitting rich white men in power are above the law that would, and have, jailed poor people who have no power. Time to realize, Americans, your are the serfs of the King and their Lords. Demand otherwise, or forever be serfs. "Immunity for my friends, the law for everyone else' -a famous fascist dictator

[@PaulaMion]

T rump didn't order the Reserves like any other SANE person would have.@@debmccorkle4845

[@kkrolf2782]

COMMENT, JILL LAPORE … We Americans are NOT just shrugging off Jan6 as “oh, well…turn the page…”!!! WE’VE BEEN WAITING IMPATIENTLY, though quietly, FOR OUR “ hired help “ TO SHOW THEIR TRUE COLORS!! We WANT JUSTICE!! We want the SAME KIND of JUSTICE that EACH & EVERY ONE of US PEONS would receive if WE INSTIGATED an INSURRECTION!!

[@tonyjones1560]

This comment 👍🏾👍🏾🫡🫡 Joe Sixpack might be about to receive his 10,000th waterboarding session in his cell in a CIA black site…if he could last that long. He certainly wouldn’t be out here campaigning for re-election and talking “mad cash shyt…”

[@lisaahmari7199]

Excellent comment. MILLIONS of us agree with you.

[@LeeZaslofsky]

The main restraint on proper legal treatment of Trump is the fact that he has millions of supporters who would react with violence if he were denied bail. The other restraint, available only to the rich and powerful, is the slowness and pettifogging of law enforcement and the judicial system. Trump has played the system so that it has taken almost three years even to get trial dates set. And it's clear that of his four indictments, only one looks likely to be tried before the election, and he's working to postpone that one too.

[@tim196868]

I love people calling the people on January 6th insurrectionist. 1776 people raged war against the mother country Britain and they were insurrectionist Against tyranny. This country was founded on insurrectionist But we called them Patriots back then. Something I think we all should think about in my opinion. God bless America and truth will prevail.

[@Paul-ng4jx]

Four years later will eight years for Trump. He’s always complaining about something the same bullshit he did in 2016 the same bullshit he did when he lost in 2020 and now he wants to become a dictator day one. That’s what he’s been saying it all is rallies I’m gonna be a dictator day one we don’t want a dictator in our country that means you’re taking everybody’s freedom away and the United States isn’t United no more, he’s gonna be the end of the world. If he gets the president we might as well worry about World War III starting up and all of us are dead.

[@frederickrapp5396]

The most important words from this interview were at 13:05. “It has to be done....We have no choice...” That says it all.

[@DotrOfDt]

Thank you to these strong smart women for laying out the issue so thoroughly well!

[@irmasimmons172]

When you publish your book I will purchase 10 copies

[@ernestchacon4928]

Back in the 1800s there wasn't social media so the times have changed. Why America doesn't get a hold on trump is way beyond me, he's a damn criminal.

[@robopp3400]

Why is a criminal? Because your leftist propaganda machine told you so? These 2 idiots are out of their minds

[@nosuchthingasshould4175]

The question is ‘which America?’ He is a leader of one side in a cold civil war, and the other side prioritises not letting the war go hot over winning.

[@wokeness420]

​@@nosuchthingasshould4175the half that cares about democracy

[@nosuchthingasshould4175]

@@wokeness420 that means you have to defeat the other half.

[@herzfeldji]

​@@wokeness420Do they care about democracy or just holding on to power? I doubt either side cares all that much about democracy.

[@steffski1946]

If cheeto man sinks his teeth into the Presidency this country is done

[@david4096]

Yea cause we probly will have a civil war if he win.

[@Chulitatr]

It's doomed if the SCOTUS justices 'don't' uphold the constitution and disqualify Trump from office nationwide.

[@HKGunPlay]

@@david4096there will be one if he loses. Either way we are screwed. Demonrats want to prevent people from voting because their opinion that Trump committed an insurrection even though it never happened 😂I want you to think about this. If they really wanted to over throw the government why would they go without weapons or means to do so. Why would Trump tell them to protest peacefully and to go home once chaos started. Why do you think it was peaceful until police shot pepper balls into the crown why won’t the don tell us how many feds were there that day. It’s was all a coup plan to hurt trump. Why would Nancy pelosi documentarian daughter be there to film her reactions because it was all planned. Regardless the election was fraudulent and it’s easy to see. What I don’t understand is how Hillary can still claim her election was stolen while Trump can’t. America and the righteous will win. We will make America great again with Trump as our leader. We will stop putting feelings over facts. We will stop paying for illegals and wars we ought not be apart off. We will stop forcing Americans to go green while the rest of the world passes us by because we out source everything even the weapons that defend us. We will bring manufacturing back to America and become self sufficient. Biden has deliberately destroyed our country. He has openly stated he wants to replace white people and make us the minority. They want America to be a melting pot of the world and to destroy American culture as we know it. What I don’t understand is why. Why do they hate Americans so much. Do you care for your neighbors more than your own family

[@alexandermayakovsky6550]

Cheeto Man? He dead.

[@judykinsman3258]

This Supreme Court has lost all credibility!

[@gwine9087]

If presidential immunity exists, why did Ford pardon Nixon?

[@gregwalker6281]

There's a difference between pardon and immunity

[@bipl8989]

A pardon cannot be accepted without an admission of guilt. Immunity means that you may never find out about guilt.

[@PJ-qf9qr]

You forgot to mention the pardon of the president of the Confederacy.

[@lordgarion514]

@bipl8989 You're wrong. A pardon can't be given without a crime being committed, but the president can absolutely pardon someone before they're even tried. Is called a preemptive pardon. With some exceptions, if a crime has been committed, the president can pardon someone, or someones of that crime with no admission of guilt.

[@bipl8989]

@@lordgarion514 It's not wrong. I said "accepted" not "given"..

[@davidcertain2492]

We are not safe as long as he’s on the ballot

[@utubefreshie]

THAT is the problem. And he needs to be taken off it! And the 14th amendment is even more crucial in that regard.

[@lindahoganson8721]

@@utubefreshieCould US voters decide, democratically, to dissolve our democratic republic?

[@ArchaicAnglist]

In the general election of 1860, ballots weren't printed by each state but rather by nspapers: a voter would locate the ballots that showed his choices and submit those at the polling place. In ten Southern states, it was difficult or impossible to obtain a ballot with Lincoln's name on it - yet Lincoln still won the general election nationwide and in the Electoral College. That result underscored the fact that the era in which Southern power and money could dominate national politics and force the acceptance of slavery nationwide had passed, and it's no accident that states started seceding practically before the ink was dry on the newspaper front pages.

[@davidcertain2492]

@@ArchaicAnglist interesting. Your point?

[@david4096]

Lock the plauge they call Trump up.

[@76carmel]

When I was taught about the Civil War in school, a lot of us asked, “What ever happened to Jefferson Davis?”

[@jeangriffith8017]

Davis walked out a stockade FREE AS A BIRD.

[@ocularpatdown]

Unfortunately, he got away with all of it.

[@JP-vs1ys]

we never even learned more about him than he was the leader of the Confederacy. All the emphasis was on the military battles, not culpability. Shows you ALOT about who was teaching doesn't it?

[@jeangriffith8017]

Yes the post Civil War period is rarely taught in the lower grades. And taught primarily in graduate seminars. So your point is well taken. A middle school student graduates knowing nothing about what happened to Davis. Reconstruction is rarely mentioned if ever. @@JP-vs1ys

[@cdjhyoung]

@@JP-vs1ys Teaching history has always been about the wars, not the peace that followed. Criticizing your high school education fails to realize that that part of your education is to give you an overview of our history. The library in the middle of town is where you go to discover the details.

[@trinleywangmo]

Justice delayed is always justice denied. That's just how it works out.

[@John-zn4lp]

This is a fascinating conversation, and one I can't believe hasn't been brought up before. I've said from the beginning that Trump would have been let go and forgotten if he had just not run for president again. The same would have happened to Jefferson Davis, if he had run again, and he should have been held accountable just like Nixon should have, but neither was running for president again. In Trump's case, we are at "third time's the charm," and he should be held accountable, period.

[@flyrobin5255]

It's like America just moved on from it's corrupt Presidents until we found one that is too stupid to just go away. Trying to to avoid the consequences of his personal court cases put him squarely back to face his government misdeeds.

[@susanbengston3208]

Absolutely!

[@nancyroth]

Actually my faith is very shaken from trump straight to our Supreme Court Justice system 😢😢

[@drugsdelaney2907]

Illegal system

[@Val-uy2me]

@nancyroth As it should be. Who thought women would lose bodily autonomy & half the country would be okay with it?! How many Americans ever thought January 6 could happen? Unless US citizens vote in record numbers in 2024 for the Democrat party, we could lose it all.

[@josephbelisle5792]

With vast amounts of just cause. No President is without corruption but Trump is brazen about it. We have a Congress that does nothing but go fishing for evidence on the current President. And SCOTUS is openly saying its fine to receive bribes. We have Presidents and Congress who appoint right wing religious justices who lied prolifically during their vetting for the position. I could go on for days on how our government doesn't follow the law or act in good conscience or for the benefit of who they are supposed to serve. And it's the fault of both parties though the worst belongs to the Republicans. Trump is a symptom of this corruption and a threat to make it so much worse.

[@cynthiashaw45]

Clarence Thomas shouldn’t decide anything involving the insurrection. His wife might be charged at some point.

[@nancyroth]

@@cynthiashaw45 she needs to be charged 😠😡😤

[@shirleyashanti3031]

I am still mad about Reconstruction because America took the wrong stance, and we've been stuck in the mire and digging out of the muck to no solution ever since. This is a dysfunctional country.

[@virginiamoss7045]

Well, it was about white supremacy then and it's about white supremacy now, still.

[@DennisMSulliva]

@shirely Yes. The army should have stayed in the south indefinitely to protect black people.

[@debhurd8898]

I completely agree. The federal government went way too easy on traitors.

[@soundshaper]

We're one of many, my friend. China looks great on the surface, gleaming and majestic cities, best mass transit systems, but it also has a poor population, people who have no control over their lives, much like our minorities.

[@Moamanly]

@@debhurd8898 They did it again in the 1940s when a group of politicians collaborated with Nazis in a plot to launch a coup. Gutless lack of moral fibre.

[@jamesjackovich5886]

Davis didn't run for president after the civil war either

[@ThatMakesSenseToMe]

Amanpour and Co just never misses. Every video of theirs I have seen it is so refreshing to let experts be given air time to speak. Thank you for all the work you do.

[@KennedyCopy]

it's layered meaning is definitely beyond MAGA and for actual grown ups

[@74artgrrl]

That photograph @7:20 is incredible. They’ve got their hands situated on their fellows shoulders. That’s a solid visual statement for unity. Just… wow.

[@74artgrrl]

The expressions on their faces in that moment in time. There’s a lot of courage and determination there. My god.

[@kevinjenner9502]

GW Bush was tried in absentia by the International Commission of Jurists in Geneva. “The invasion of Iraq was neither in self defense against armed attack nor sanctioned by the UN Security Council authorizing the use of force by member states and thus constituted the Crime of War of Aggression”

[@MrEerwin]

There is never a way to 'move forward' without moving through and dealing with the hard choices offered in the scope of one's existence. This piece of brilliant work shows this eloquently. There is a clear path from the Civil War through Watergate of our country's failing to live up to its most scared ideals. Prosecute Trump and his minions, at any and all cost, or give up any notion of taking American Democracy, The Rule of Law, and our identity and self-image as Americans seriously. This is the choice being offered to America, perhaps one last time. Will we fulfill a vision of ourselves worthy of our legacy and being, or slither away in a false comfort of 'healing' and 'moving forward'? Let's hope the Court is up for this task now before them, less this opportunity fail and add to more great weight and hardship, borne by the historical American. Thanks to Amanapor and Company for their continued great work.

[@CJScrol]

You have to evaluate & accept what really happened before it’s possible to “move on.” 😮

[@Chulitatr]

An official who took an oath to uphold the Constitution ONLY has to be 'engaged' in insurrection or rebellion, 'not' convicted. Trump and the Republicans brought this upon themselves, and knew these charges were coming 3-years ago. The world watched the insurrection live news and the evidence is overwhelming. America & the Constitution & Rule of Law before any billionaire.

[@frederickrapp5396]

Brilliantly stated. You very eloquently express the thoughts and feelings of millions and millions of average Americans.

[@D.M.47]

The South seceded because of the unequal treatment in Congress toward the South related to the National Revenue of which the South paid more.

[@I-Have-Fire]

One thing about this article really stood out…the idea that at one time the Republican Party was once committed to equal rights. What happened?

[@johnlee-master6916]

And when did Democrats stop being committed to free speech? What happened?

[@jonnieinbangkok]

And the Democrat Party was for racial segregation and discrimination...and still is only reversed! #MAGA2024 #LetsGoBrandon

[@marymccluer1630]

When Johnson, a Democratic president, signed civil rights legislation into law at the behest of MLK Jr., Southern whites felt betrayed and left the Democratic party for the Republican party. Blacks felt the civil rights legislation was a step in the right direction and they joined the Democratic party. Thus, voters had switched parties.

[@doorsfan173]

Liberal Republicans died out or were absorbed by the other party. Parties in the past were very different, and were far less politically homogenous. Your region would determine more about your politics than your party affiliation a century ago. I am deeply oversimplifying, but the Civil Rights Movement and efforts around equal rights was a huge accelerant on polarization and ideological-sorting of American party-politics that we currently suffer through. Think of Strom Thurmond, a Southern Democrat, becoming a Republican in support of Goldwater's presidential candidacy in 1964 (mainly due to shared opposition of Civil Rights); Thurmond was never a socially liberal guy even though we connote Democrats with liberalism in 2023. It just wasn't always the case. Southern Democrats at large were often quite socially conservative, against Civil Rights, pro-Jim Crow etc. Their roots were in the Democratic-Republican party, formed after the founding, and were largely constituted by the "yeoman farmers" (mostly of the South) that Jefferson spoke of in our earliest years as a nation. New Deal Democratic presidents and many New Deal Democrats (not all) were liberals that moved towards Civil Rights along with their liberal Republican colleagues like, just as an example, Thomas Dewey. Republicans fractured, you had the socially liberal Republicans of the Civil War, Reconstruction eras, and so on. As time passed, socially/politically Conservative Republicans like Goldwater, Nixon via the Southern Strategy (his economic policies were more politically eclectic), Reagan reinforcing this with his "welfare queen" rhetoric, courted socially conservative Democrats to the Republican party & this also courted the Christian bloc as well. Again, this is a huge oversimplification of decades and decades of American history, but the TLDR is that the ideologies of supporting/opposing equal rights never died, but what changed was where those supporters and opposers of these ideas chose to affiliate. They've largely sorted entirely within the parties. Obviously, not all modern social conservatives and liberals are supporting the exact same ideas of their past counterparts though. Ideas, norms, and goals of the movements change with every generation, it isn't one-to-one. Just an edit - obv have to gloss over tons of points, can't account for every exception, and need to make big generalizations since this is only a KZbin comment. People write whole books and make whole academic careers out of this question.

[@kshepard52]

Time passed and people and politics changed.

[@brysonwest93]

Amanpour and Company is always worth the time. Thank you.

[@franciscopenaranda180]

Now that we see the product of not prosecuting the law, the courts have to make sure that it doesn't happen again. The judges have to quit hiding under their desk.

[@danjohnson6800]

Amen to that the reticence to making a forceful decision and settling these issues is rampant. Never seen such a duck and cover crowd! No courage to do what needs to be done unless it wasn’t done a hundred times before. Same mentality as letting a gunman run amuck for an hour in a school rather than taking the risk, going in and taking him out. The no balls sit on a throne pontificate and declare oneself important while doing nothing. “Managing” a situation means by definition continuing the status quo. Which in an ongoing assault of any kind means the aggression will continue to take ground. If you never fight back and end it, the bastards take the hill, wear you down and you lose. Being defended by people without the backbone to take flak, get hit, and still get in there and take down the offender is just nauseating.

[@Paul-ng4jx]

They’re not gonna do that though they’re gonna keep hiding their heads under the desk because they don’t want the public backlash coming at them you go against Trump the media fucking hit them hard their families get threatened and everything else and half these people are in their 6070s and 80s so they don’t care anyway they have nothing left to losebesides your pride and dignity and they’re not gonna do that over speaking up against your colleagues that would be blast me

[@JSmithDad]

You can't get past a thing without going through the thing. Avoidance neither teaches nor tempers.

[@dweb]

Indeed. Accountability abstained ever since for a certain set of entitled citizens.

[@Ryan_Christopher]

“Or” not “Nor.”

[@robsaxepga]

I think a more appropriate analogy would be letting Nixon get off with breaking the law. While that wasn't an assault on the republic, it was breaking the law and the government let him off the hook. That set a dangerous precedent.

[@SnapGrunt2]

He got off with a presidential pardon after stepping down😳 hopefully trump can step down before the end of his first term

[@fett713akamandodragon5]

@@SnapGrunt2 If you really think anything will happen to tRump once he's in, and that he would even consider stepping down or leaving office after his next term is done, you're to naive to be helped.

[@Acekhan201]

@@SnapGrunt2 gotta ask, in what world you think TFG is capable of that?

[@SnapGrunt2]

@@Acekhan201 Lemme ask tf is TFG?

[@melissahouse3488]

​@@SnapGrunt2You mean Biden. Let's pray!!! 🙏🏻❤️🇺🇲❤️🕊️🇵🇸

[@r.b.roberts9747]

Amazing! What an incredible discussion between Michel and Jill. Then also what an extraorinary lecture by Jill. All said, what a phenomenol episode!👍

[@Ijs5803]

Loved the reflection on McConnell self interest. Would love him to hear it.

[@robinantonio8870]

McConnell is an evil self serving man who could have stopped Trump from running again by pressing forward on impeachment and declined to do it.

[@catherinereynolds9644]

Yet, drumpf swore an oath to our constitution.

[@susanbengston3208]

Which tfg refuses to acknowledge.

[@deepsixman]

I'd be interested to know if she thinks Ford letting Nixon off the hook is another notch in the same belt?

[@pjpredhomme7699]

how can anyone not think that - I thought it then - I think it now - they did all that revisionist BS - kennedy center courage award to Ford for pardoning him - it was directly responsible for the obvious measurable decline in the executive . Each succeeding republican president has been more illegal , worse how can anyone draw any other conclusion .

[@bartsolari5035]

it's politics, same o, same o...both sides of the aisle love it

[@lynnerose7891]

She says it was because of the abandonment of Reconstruction.

[@lisaahmari7199]

I think it applies far better here. Nixon was a sitting Prez OF THE US. Davis was not. Pardoning the criminal Nixon set this precedent more than anything else.

[@lisaahmari7199]

​Surprising to see such an ill-informed comment as yours on a PBS thread. We must assume you are a MAGA troll.

[@mgbilby]

Grateful for this interview, one of the most insightful tours of Reconstruction era politics I've ever heard, and for the conscientious connections to and appeals for the nation dealing openly and honestly today with the Jan 6 insurrection.

[@markbeames7852]

18 minutes hardly constitutes an, "insightful tour." You need to start reading textbooks (plenty at used bookstores) and auditing some college lectures.

[@PG-wz7by]

@@markbeames7852 Don't be an old scold

[@markbeames7852]

moi@@PG-wz7by ?? 😌

[@user-vy5nd2fe9o]

Jill is wonderfully spoken!!!! 👍👍

[@loogoo]

Well, here's our chance to finally correct that 150-year-old mistake.

[@dweb]

Indeed. Accountability for a certain set of entitled citizens.

[@mrkkg27]

All original parties are long deceased. So are you advocating punishment to individuals for the crimes of their father’s father?

[@loogoo]

@@mrkkg27 oh please - of course not. But a precedent was set then which has ramifications today, and that is what needs to be addressed.

[@mrkkg27]

@@loogoo What kind of accountability are you suggesting that would not entail punishment in some form? What set of citizens?

[@oldreprobate2748]

Let's make sure Trump is the test case by him going to prison for the rest of his life.

[@darbyl3872]

Great insight, not at all biased. What's it like following the herd?

[@johnmccarthy9391]

You assert "bias" where none has been brought forward. The evidence of Trump's criminality is painstakingly outlined and enumerated in the charges laid forth in all FOUR indictments which were returned by federal and state grand juries in FOUR different jurisdictions. I suppose you've read the indictments? Care to comment on the evidence? I thought not. @@darbyl3872

[@barbaradobson9298]

Ok excuse my ignorance…. Jill Lepore is a distinguished Harvard professor and prodigious writer. I have been living under a rock but have now ordered several of her books to rectify this. Looking forward at 74 to be her student via the written page.

[@ranz2355]

When a nation is trying to unify it makes no sense to vilify the former leader of half its populace.

[@theresalee9392]

Thank you for your insight Jill Lepore!

[@KittLove_K3]

Two months after the dismissal of Jefferson Davis' case in Richmond, the question of secession's legitimacy found its definitive answer. In April 1869, the Supreme Court declared in Texas v. White that the Confederacy's act of secession had been "absolutely null." This resounding statement was further solidified in Williams v. Bruffy (1877), leaving no ambiguity about the illegality of secession. These landmark rulings stand as the unshakeable pillars of American unity, ensuring that the question of a state's right to secede remains firmly buried in the past.

[@Rob_Moilanen]

Tell that to that MTG woman who wants to divorce herself from the USA. The Confederacy is very much alive cause of mealy mouth bullshit about being fair to TFG. The USA must never let that southern bullshit rise again to sully those whom died to beat down the rebellion...

[@aliceputt3133]

Except our Radical Corrupt Supreme Court doesn’t follow past Court findings.

[@timothymeehan181]

Lincoln, as usual, weighed in, and brilliantly, on this topic of this so-called “right of secession” in his tour de force “Message to Congress in Special Session, July 4, 1861”, which should be read by every American…🙏🇱🇷🎩

[@cdjhyoung]

Thank you for this bit of history. But, would it be possible for the Country to boot a state from inclusion in the union? Just a thought. The leaders in a few of them are really making a case for exclusion from the benefits of being an American.

[@lynnerose7891]

Unless you’re from TX.

[@verified.my2cents]

For those with the high expectation that "justice" will be served, this is a real reminder of how "justice" has not been effectively and evenly provided throughout the history of the United States, so don't "expect" it now. Complacency is not your friend.

[@joemalonski5004]

Great Job Ms Martin and Ms Lepore. I look for the insights this helps.

[@johnellharris1366]

The residue of human beings continues to cloud the path of justice,not holding persons accountable for injustices is damaging to the heart of the rule of law.

[@letsdance4078]

Jill Lepore is an amazing writer. If you have not read her books on US history, do! Exceptional.

[@OpticsOnOrganisms]

Fascinating information from Jill Lepore...great interview...thank you

[@pablopeter3564]

A bright woman talking, it was worthy to listen her.

[@laurief.9638]

Excellent, and I absolutely agree. Bravo for writing that article.

[@charlottetracy3970]

Jill Lepore is one of my favorite historians.

[@JP-vs1ys]

too middle of the road for me. trump is a damn disgrace and criminal. say it emphatically. all these mainstream media voices dance around what any decent person can see with their own eyes.

[@grouchomarxist5612]

Mine too. I just read "This America: The Case for the Nation." It was eloquent.

[@garethcroson8851]

Of course, Trump wants to use the trial to make his case. So what? Everyone who ever went to trial was trying to make their case. That's why we have trials. In the case of Trump, the sooner the better.

[@oftenlucid]

What a pleasure to watch two informed people have a conversation in a long format. I had never put this current case together with the Reconstruction. That is a very apt comparison.

[@user-rk5vk8cx3p]

Ms Lapore: Thank you, for your research and, most of all, your conclusions. I agree with you 100%.

[@prestonbacchus4204]

Probably the US Supreme court will be deciding this issue: Can any current or former POTUS be barred from holding office under the 14th Amendment or not? Surely the answer must be yes.

[@susanbengston3208]

The Corruption plagued s.c.

[@prestonbacchus4204]

Yep. They are going to be tested. We will have to see how it goes.@@susanbengston3208

[@johntobin3235]

You might want to listen to some legal scholars who can explain a number of Constitutional defenses Trump has. Bias is the enemy of facts… It helps to get a full story before forming an opinion. Listening to those with similar political opinions doesn’t bode well for objective reasoning.

[@prestonbacchus4204]

"I just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, which is one more than [the 11,779-vote margin of defeat] we have, because we won the state."

[@johntobin3235]

Try reading the 14th amendment. It helps to some extent. There are many strong legal arguments against its usage against Trump or any President in fact.

[@dejuans1328]

Unprecedented times call for unprecedented actions.

[@leslieacoca5876]

Wonderful...Thank you Jill. I did not know this history.

[@suzannehewett2688]

before women got the vote--Jill Lepore thank you for your research and insights

[@take5th]

We screwed up end of civil war, screwed up on Nixon. Let us not do this again.

[@sharongillesp]

What a phenomenal nation we could have been. Imagine the unity among nations it would have spawned. Few of any wars. Climate control worldwide. LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS would have reigned across the globe.

[@susanbengston3208]

Great Hopes Never Die!

[@twhite8308]

Great interview/conversation. I come here for the smart people. I want and expect them to be smarter and more informed than me.

[@sputnikmoonchild]

I can't wait for Jill Lepore's book! It sounds fascinating.

[@janetsecchi5070]

I really enjoyed this conversation.

[@barbaradobson9298]

Jill Lepore is brilliant ! I learned so much listening to her. Now I’m looking forward to her book. She should be a teacher because she brings history alive ! I stand in awe of this young woman.

[@dwightmagnuson4298]

Suggest Cynthia Nicoletti's book.

[@charlesreynolds8795]

How did you not already know all that. Nothing informative here.

[@Val-uy2me]

@@charlesreynolds8795 I absolutely guarantee you that most Americans are clueless on our early-American history. FFS -- we are now a nation that can't agree on facts & a guy like Donald Trump is revered by millions. Half the country thinks Joe Rogan & Alex Jones are really smart. They don't know who Jill Lepore is & could care less about US history. Save your snark and superior attitude.

[@user-hc9kp5zt6l]

Jill Lepore is a fake historian and an intellectual mediocrity. Just thought I would mention it

[@dbadagna]

She's almost 60.

[@atanacioluna292]

Amazing! Wao, I have felt this but could have never understood why I felt this way. Thank you for this personal catharsis.

[@semblt]

During reconstruction the tribes that were invaded by the south and forced to join the confederacy lost their borders while the southern states did not.

[@NopeUghUghAbsolutelyNot]

Yes, Davis was the main topic for the sect 3. This is when MD Senator asked why President wasn't specifically named in sec 3 of the 14th. The question of it applying to presidents was asked, answered, and unchallenged. This is why I don't understand the confusion of if it applies to presidents. They clearly said yes it does in the 1800s

[@eastbaystreet1242]

SCOTUS will not miss that detail in their analysis.

[@Merzui-kg8ds]

14th Amendment wasn't passed until 1868, a little more than 3 years after the Civil War ended.

[@lynnerose7891]

Wow….I didn’t know that……. Oh wait, we all knew that. They barely even mentioned it bc it’s immaterial. She also mentioned that it was ratified after the end of the war. It wasn’t going to happen within a month, much less one year later when Lincoln was assassinated.

[@brendasmart553]

Very enlightening, eye-opening information here, thanks! So much has been ignored and/or with-held from us on our political past, it is amazing that there's even more yet to be revealed...

[@Ahtaht227]

Watching this after his appeal hearing yesterday gives me some hope that we will continue moving forward in holding trump accountable

[@user-wf9id5qq3q]

The interviewee suggests that the failed case against President Jefferson Davis has been ignored by historians, but this is not true. Historians have generally noted that the government dropped the case against Jefferson Davis because they were afraid he had a strong case and would win. The government did not want to risk losing in a courtroom what had been gained on the battlefield.

[@Iprevail1972]

So true. The Constitution was adhered to then. They remember how our nation started. With civil disobedience, then insurrection, then a fight to remove tyrannical authority. Our Declaration of Independence clearly states the necessity of throwing off the yoke and the lawfulness of such acts. So does The Constitution. It was hypocritical then to say it could not happen if the circumstances were the same as in 1776. So now it is illegal to protest the government now? It is easy to claim such when you are the said government or a supporter. Then again. Democracy works this way or it would not be Democracy. What you are proposing is a nation with one political party with all others outlawed and dissent quashed and dissenters jailed or worse? Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

[@susanschaffner4422]

Excellent interview and historical background.

[@joannevandyke5112]

Trial by jury is all we have left in our democracy we can have faith in.

[@bartsolari5035]

O J Simpson

[@Ryan-Fkrepublicnz]

You obviously don't know how our "justice" system actually works. Threatening defendants with 10 times the charges just to get them to plead guilty (even if they are innocent) is not justice

[@julieb7785]

Well...there's the Innocence Project. A probably not-large-enough safety net.

[@evinchester7820]

And access to the courts is slowly being taken away from the people with so called "tort reform" which places tiny judgements that can be awarded to the plaintiffs.

[@cynthiashaw45]

Then get off your butt and vote in the Republican primary to stop him. We decide who goes to Washington. We need to decide better. Stop worshiping political parties, and start electing people by their records. Prove that they are tax paying citizens that have committed no crimes Trump couldn’t pass that test prior to 2016. If you are not ready to block the reelection of MAGA at the local, state, and federal level in the republican primary….why not? Christie 2024 🇺🇸 you can go blue in the general election after you help stop MAGA.

[@jimscott6678]

It is remarkable how much she leaves out. A book by Davis’s prison doctor detailing his mistreatment in prison shifted public opinion in his favor, as did discovery in Confederate official correspondence of ample proof that Davis tried hard to improve conditions for Union POWs.

[@dfitzerl]

So, by being good you can avoid being tried?

[@jeanniebuckmaster1158]

She articulates very well

[@thomasjamison2050]

History repeats. First as tragedy, second as farce. - Karl Marx

[@lisaahmari7199]

In this case: both.

[@thomasjamison2050]

@@lisaahmari7199 The Civil War was tragedy. This time it will only be farce unless Trump manages to get elected and sworn in. Then it will be tragedy. He can't destroy the country, it will ultimately destroy him, but he can do a lot of damage along the way.

[@louroc425]

Comedia tragedia

[@cliffordpearsonjr.9748]

Yep.....biden sure IS a farce!

[@rsotis]

Only imbeciles quote KM.

[@1dash133]

The fact that prosecutors chose not to proceed with the trial of Jefferson Davis over a century ago has no effect on the trial of Donald Trump today. That is just playing a game of "what ifs" in trying to compare the two. The differences between the two cases are much more striking than their similarities.

[@susanbengston3208]

We Know they’re Both Racists and Traitors.

[@joannprymek5667]

Great history lesson. Very well done. Thank you.

[@senecaute6072]

Really important contribution to our current political conversation! This was news to me - shows how the prosecutions of Trump are even more vital to the survival of democracy than I'd thought.

[@MrMagi95]

That’s the problem today, They moved on and we have this mess now.

[@TheJojo01902]

I think what Lepore says is this - it is a very uncertain business to put a former president on trial, there are no guarantees of acquittal or of conviction, but to do nothing (to have no trial) calls into question the entire legal system on which our nation is based. Or, to do nothing is extremely messing and to do something is extremely messy.

[@susanbengston3208]

She said it’s Absolutely Necessary to hold tfg accountable, No Choice but to Prosecute him Fully!

[@richarddetriquet9642]

This topic is very interesting. The temper of the post Civil War times is very challenging for us to understand. My difficulty with most discussions revolving around the Civil War is that issues are often obscured by our 20/20 hindsight and entangled within contemporary political and social issues. In 1865, there was a real danger of massive political violence in the South and that the peace might only be maintained through indefinite military occupation. The fear was that a protracted insurgency might result. The country had already paid a huge human cost and was tired of war. Overwhelmingly, people North and South, wanted to move on. Of course, there was a price paid in leaving many issues unresolved. The 2021 attack on the Capital and The Civil War are vastly different affairs. To lump them together does a disservice to understanding either.

[@kal2487]

Thank you for being logical about this.

[@richarddetriquet9642]

@@kal2487 Thank you. The underpinnings of the riot at the Capital may require years to get some perspective and make sense of. I'm reminded of a question asked of Chinese leader Chou En Lai in the 1970s. He was asked by a French reporter if he thought the French Revolution had been successful. Chou answered: "I dont know...its too soon to tell".

[@kal2487]

@@richarddetriquet9642 I'm not expert but I took a Civil War history tour, and my understanding is their main consideration was wanting to stop the horrific bloodshed, which was shocking even back then. The January 6th event is a completely different thing.

[@richarddetriquet9642]

@@kal2487 You're right. Imagine over 700,00 Americans dead. And our population then was around only 31 million. Thanks again. I hope you stay interested in learning .

[@Ahtaht227]

This was wonderful thank you

[@teresalegler2777]

Excellent interview. Lots of good points.

[@mossydog2385]

Jill LePore is incorrect, at least in this instance. The _country_ does _not_ "want to move on" - politicians do, and they do for two reasons, they believe that they are our betters and deserve privilege that no ordinary citizen enjoys and they don't want to be held accountable for their own treachery and utter lack of ethics or morals. Is there a danger that politicians could receive unjust, political prosecutions? Yes, but there are myriad ways of avoiding that. Are _some_ people held in thrall to the cult of trump and might they commit acts of violence? Yes, unstable, gullible and violent people have always existed and yet we have prevailed. I strongly believe that it's far more the privileged few who see their own behaviour reflected in trump that "want to move on" because, in one way or another, they want to preserve their privilege which, once again, no other citizens enjoy.

[@mossydog2385]

..

[@lynnerose7891]

No she isn’t.

[@cynthiashaw45]

She is wrong if she thinks we want to let trump go without making sure this never happens again. Trump and his helpers need a good reason to stop running roughshod over the will of the people. We need to exercise our right to vote in the republican primaries to shutdown MAGA from reelection. They need to see us making a clear statement that we can and will pull together to be heard. We didn’t invent this system but we better learn how to work it. Our vote is the only real tool we have. Spend it wisely. Stop being political sheep. Nobody married a political party. It’s not possible to be unfaithful.

[@dbadagna]

Very educational, thank you

[@douglasmelton2613]

Very well said. 100% correct

[@deborahedelman2659]

Great discssion...thank you!

[@Saturday8pm]

What we have here are a myriad of examples of when The Law had no balls. 🇺🇸

[@david4096]

Cause of money .If he dident have money on his side he allready be locked up.

[@timlewis7218]

Youve been hypnotized by the media.

[@kevynnedallaire1815]

*What a profoundly knowledgeable and articulate guest! She is spot on! Well said!*

[@juancana457]

This reminds me of the disgruntled, approximately-half of America when R.M. Nixon didn't get tried. Ford's presidential bid was partly tanked by his pardoning Nixon.

[@JJMHigner]

Henry Wirtz was The only Ranking person from the confederacy officially tried and convicted of war crimes equivalent and hung at his trial due to his horrific treatment of prisoners at andersonville. New york had a similar prison but no one was convicted over that. Anyways, Since he was a swedish national technically speaking it probably didn't offend anybody.

[@ShankarSivarajan]

_Vae victis,_ as the old saying goes. The same kind of "victors' justice" was dispensed against Germany after the Second World War .

[@evanclumb9358]

This was really great work!!

[@detectiveofmoneypolitics]

Economic investigator Frank G Melbourne Australia is following this very important and informative content cheers Frank 😊