Guitar Scale Length is the Most Crucial Spec - STOP IGNORING IT!

[@666dreamboat]

Pup distance from bridge + scale length The secret ratios that are often called "tone wood" in electric guitars.

[@mlsoundlab]

Yeah a lot of "that" sound is a physics thing rather than alder vs mahogany. 😂

[@peterPlaysTheGuitar]

funniest comment I've read in a while! Cheers!

[@HunnysPlaylists]

All wood vibrates differently, and tone is vibration. no midwittery changes that.

[@HunnysPlaylists]

​@@mlsoundlab alder vs mahogany IS a physics thing. the different density of the pulp between the rings, the shape and thickness of the rings.

[@666dreamboat]

@@HunnysPlaylists leave ml alone, they actually have audible products to worry about.

[@oxidinstruments]

Very interesting you are certainly intro something with these tests you've been doing. Please continue!!

[@mlsoundlab]

Need to find the truefff!!

[@VMinoda]

it's crazy how many people will tell you an LP sounds fatter than strat because of it being a 5kg slab of wood and not even think about some more obvious differences. LIKE GODDAMN SCALE LENGTH

[@HunnysPlaylists]

valley arts strats had gibson scale lengths and they did not sound like lp's. why are you blaspheming on top of your silliness?

You could also test: Long scale with "thin" strings Vs normal scale with thick strings E.g. where the string tension is kind of the same on both, but the long scale will probably sound clearer

[@mlsoundlab]

Good point! String tension vs thickness influence... wow this went from a rabbithole to a wormhole. 🤯

[@A.J.99]

The longer scale will definitely sound brighter

[@mohitrahaman]

Thats usually why longer scale lengths are used, to retain clarity and to skip using bulky strings to attain the same tension or target tuning on a relatively shorter scale guitar. Try watching The Bunn or Stringjoy to dig deeper.

[@PaTiFoN18]

I used 13-74 on my 25.5 7 string in drop G. Sounds pretty round and bassy. Tension was playable but little hard to press. One thing i noticed is that even if you picking hard the tone is too bass-like and there is almost no chug for me. Doesnt suit for modern metal. Strings needs to be a little saggy.

[@thet740]

@@PaTiFoN18 I don't have any 25.5 guitars in drop G, but I run A# standard on a few with 13-56 (6-strings). My 7s guitars are 26.5'' in G# standard tuning and I use 11-64. If I was in your situation using drop tuning, I'd probably want a thinner pack for your top 6 and one single thick string for the bottom in drop tuning. Maybe 11-48 on top 6s and like a 66-68 on bottom. It could help you get some playability back and maybe even less boominess from the wound strings. Better intonation too as thinner strings intonate more towards the neck side than thicker strings.

[@6oundStudio]

yeah, it feels super weird that it's 2024 and most of companies barely offering any good baritones while bands play in like double drop A and stuff. it's a lot better now than 20 years ago, but the market is still super underdeveloped. and not a lot of people understand that they often don't need a 7-8 string guitar, they just need a baritone

[@mlsoundlab]

Oh heck yes! An extra string with the same scale length only adds 5 new notes. A longer scale can get you an octave lower if you want. The marketing on this stuff is so weird.. 9 STRING GUITARS!!! Why?

[@jackbootshamangaming4541]

7 strings is great though. I got a 7 string when I got back into guitar a few years ago, I play my 7s way more than my 6s. But my main ones are multi scales now, although I loved my fixed scale ones still too ​@@mlsoundlab

[@zacharykim295]

Because of all these metal players they think we want all these extra strings.

[@SeaW4rrior]

String gauge will affect your tone alot too. Longer scale lenght -> smaller gauge -> brighter tone :) for the same tuning ^^

[@dannymolns3573]

So what's the equation for The darkest and deepest bass? Short scale and thicker gauge strings?

[@SeaW4rrior]

​@dannymolns3573 well... probably ^^ If you look at like stoner/doom bands, I think most of them use like regular scale length (often 24.75) and probably kind of floppy strings

[@IcedForce]

The string tension is really interesting stuff and way too often overlooked. There's a lot of things to test there if you're willing. Different bridges would be interesting with probably easiest one being trying tremolo bridge in different setups (mainly hardtailing it with too tight springs vs. floating it with "too loose" springs, I generally favor to keep the tails of my Strats bit higher for more sensitive tremolo arm and having "cheap Floyd Rose"). Then there's the headstock; 3L/3R and 6L tuner setups have quite a difference in string lengths (as in complete length, I had to check and my SG and Strat have almost 4" difference from nut to tuner for e string) which may affect the string tension. String trees which is personally interesting for me, because I sometimes free my Strats strings from the trees to play some odd 0-fret bends and have noticed that taking the trees out lowers the note more than half-step but tuning the string without trees and installing them raises the note by less than half-step. Here is probably also the place for fanned frets which while with 8-strings may allow you to use bass strings and really "downtune" the lower strings, generally should actually take out of the dynamics because you are lengthening (brightening) the lower strings while shortening (darkening) the higher ones. Strings themselves have effect on string tension, the gauge directly and drasticly changes the tuning tension (having a C-tuned metal guitar with 13-56 set is nice but it's fun when you just are figuring things out and don't yet know about anything and put that kind of set to a Strat and turn it into a bow by tuning it to E-standard 😅). Material however, I don't think there's at least as huge difference than with gauges, steel creates more tension than nickel and different flexibility but seems rather small difference.

[@mlsoundlab]

😮 Yeeaahhh...

[@davidvierabarreras]

An underrated feature and very important for the character of the sound. Great info and video!!! 🤟🤟🤟🤟

[@mlsoundlab]

Thanks David! 💪 -Kai

[@A.J.99]

Absolutely! And it's pretty easy to check on any guitar playing, for example, the E note on the 2nd fret of the 4th string and on the 7th fret of the 5th string. The first one gonna sound much brighter.

[@mlsoundlab]

Exactly. Or pluck the thinnest open string and match that note on all other strings possible. Gets fatter and more muffled the shorter the scale length and the thicker the string.

[@DimKAt21]

Killer video series friend! Thank you very much!

[@mlsoundlab]

Thanks for watching! 💪 -Kai

[@garebear6637]

I've really been enjoying these geeky videos recently. Would love to see more like this. They help me to better understand the tones I want to create and how to achieve them in a much more practical way. Stay nerdy!

[@mlsoundlab]

That's awesome to hear, glad you're finding them useful! -Kai

[@SimonMeunier]

Perfect clarity without loosing the "guitar feeling" is 27" I've got my guitars in Drop C in a 27" scale. I find 28" guitar have a more bass guitar feeling and the stretch you have to make to noodle on the top frets is to much hassle

[@mlsoundlab]

I somehow feel like on my baritone guitar there's really none of that "enjoyable" soloing even if I play high notes. Something about the string tension just makes it feel like those higher notes are not "singing" like they normally would with a more regular scale length.

[@SimonMeunier]

@@mlsoundlab Interesting. I should have mentioned that I play 10-52 for Drop C. Which is quite a light gauge for this tuning. But the scale helps. But I'm more of a rhythm player overall

[@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard]

So fascinating. Also applies to bass. Fender PJ Bass and the P Bass should sound exactly the same if you turn off the bridge pickup on the PJ, right?

[@mlsoundlab]

Actually!! Pay close attention to the P pickup on PJ basses. It can be very different to where it is on a P-bass. F.ex. Mustangs/Jaguars have it a little bit differently. A P-bass is my #1 and I also have a Duff McKagan PJ from '87 and that P-pickup sounds 100% correct. 😊

[@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard]

@@mlsoundlab How do you do your frequency analysis? I'd like to do some myself. I'm thinking of using Audacity...

[@timdavis1591]

Since strats and tele's sound better tuned a half step down, ie with lower string tension, does it follow that they would also benefit from shorter scale length?

[@Crispy_Music_2024]

The scale length to use depends on if you play in a band and where each instrument lives in the mix and whether an instrument plays short notes or longer droning notes.

[@jimsliverootsculturemusic]

What are your thoughts on string gauges used for these different scales? Where would you go lighter that expected or heavier than expected?

[@ManlaySound]

One point to consider. You reduce the scale lenght towards the bridge while keeping the pickup fixed. If you keep in mind the proportions, that is equivalent to moving the pickup towards the neck every time you reduce the scale. And I can tell by experience that minimal movement of a pickup position makes a huge difference in bass content. I'd love this experiment done with a piezo pickup under the bridge to eliminate my point from the equation.

[@xplanet2112]

Very interesting this. I have mainly had longer scale guitars for the past 10 years or so, 2 @ 27 inch and 1 @ 26.5 inches and I will have gotten used to their bright sound. They all now have Fishman moderns installed too.. So last year I got another guitar… because Evertune and although this guitar once again was equiped with fisherman moderns it was 25.5 inches in scale. However the difference in tone in this new guitar was very different, much warmer and in some respects it actually sound dull for the cleans despite having the same set of strings on all of the guitars. I did think that among other reasons it was the scale length but this helps to prove that this is one of the factors and that there is nothing wrong with the new guitar!

[@mlsoundlab]

It's good to have variety! Also there are ways to make a guitar brighter like based on these tests - lowering your action. 😮

[@MatthewSwasta]

So shorter scale adds harmonic undertones or removes harmonic overtones, or...changes timbre? Isn't the standard range 82hz to 1397hz with a fundamental of 740hz? A2 @ 440hz is A2 regardless of scale. also, would the appropriate string gauge (tension) change these timbres as well? The proper string tension on actual scale length instruments, that your trying to represent here, may bring back brightness or certain harmonic overtones that are lost in your experiment. The tension lessens with each down tuning in the experiment. That has to have some impact on the harmonic overtones as well.

[@mlsoundlab]

The string gauge comment seems to be a common one. I feel like if I would've changed the strings this test result would've been a bit random. It's impossible to ensure identical string tension. Also some people prefer loose string feel and some people don't. I feel like that might be a separate test to this one.

[@MatthewSwasta]

@@mlsoundlab sure, but with the tedious, time consuming work put into testing each string gauge specific tension, those factors can be scientifically tested and the results can be put forth. Otherwise there are too many variables to have a significant result.

[@ryanbaptiste249]

Valuable info for a guitar builder, thanks!

[@mlsoundlab]

Glad you found it helpful! 🤲 -Kai

[@ianvaldes3073]

I think this is why my multi scale guitar is my favorite guitar. I tune super low and the low strings have clarity and bite while the higher strings are warm and great for leads.

[@Fishplants]

I have 2 Strandbergs exact same pickups / body , Only difference is one has maple fretboard and the other has ebony, Big difference in sound, Ebony is darker and maple is bright. Maybe that's something to test ? 🤔

[@drosspunter]

I've never heard about this or thought about it. Good stuff, thanks.

[@A.J.99]

This particular test is not full correct , because the thicker strings should be used for shorter scale to keep string tension equal

[@mlsoundlab]

I suppose yes but then string thickness messes with things too. Thicker strings sound fatter too... 😮 At least in this experiment the only variable is scale length and yes therefore string tension.

[@VeneliNikolov]

@@mlsoundlabRick Beato test disagrees, 9s can sound as fat as 13s, but I agree with the scale length 100%

[@kimseniorb]

also dont agree. there should be constants with a single exception being the subject of the test

[@jasonjayalap]

If the tension is the source of the darker tone, down tuning would always result in darker tone. Does it? If the same note sounds the same, we can dismiss tension as a factor. And the results stand. If both tension and guage matter in tone, it will be complicated to isolate scale effect alone. Remember that this is with magnetic pickups, not acoustically.

[@RuTnVI]

Great video. I'm starting an experiment along with a Luthier i met. Our goal is to play B tuning on 0.11 string gauge, so we're wondering the neck length we need for my 25" stratocaster.

[@mlsoundlab]

It's all personal really, there's no correct answer. Personally, for B Standard I'd probably want somewhere around 13-60 gauge strings at a 27" scale. 11-54 at 27" would still be good, but it'll be pretty slinky feeling (equivalent to 9-42 in E at 25.5" scale), so it's not for everyone. Check out Winspear's string gauge calculator, it should give you a good idea of how tuning, string gauge and scale length affect the equation. -Kai

[@TreyXanthean-c5h]

Excellent Video Mikko

[@JpeterZoom-gt3pn]

What is the point of testing scale length on the thick strings of a baritone guitar????

[@mlsoundlab]

A baritone guitar doesn't require thick strings to be tuned low. That's the purpose of a baritone scale.

[@JpeterZoom-gt3pn]

Oh ok then that makes more sense in this test@@mlsoundlab

[@Ausf.D.A.K.]

Yeah, I recently ordered my first custom guitar and my main priorities were: scale length, fretboard radius, neck profile, neck-through construction, fretwire type, bridge type, headstock design and pickups. Body wood was the least important imo. Neck wood is more important because something like a 3 piece maple is really strong and it will require less adjustments.

[@erickaufmancustomguitars1351]

??? QUESTION ??? Are those guitars intonated and set up for those tunings ? Or are they set up for standard tuning and then you drop it to drop c# or whatever sub tuning you are using ?

[@FrankyFeedler]

While scale length appears to change the tonality, I suspect it to be indirectly. If the distance between the bridge and pickup is fixed across all guitars, then changing the scale length would technically place the pickup at different relative of the string, in terms of how (amplitude) the string vibrates at any point. Just like changing intonation alters how the perfect pitch of a note lines up with a fret, physically. Same and only reason why a neck position pickup sounds different; it registers a part of the string that vibrates with a higher amplitude, thus darkening the sound. On a 27" scale (again - same distance between bridge and pickup) the pickup would register a lower amplitude than on a 24" scale as relatively, the pickup is closer to the bridge-end of the strings.

[@DenariusHaveNarius]

Wait. I believe you said shorter scale gives you more lows but only talk about the higher frequency (3k or 4k or whatever). So did you measure what lower frequencies were more present in shorter scale lengths?

[@jackbootshamangaming4541]

It definitely is. I just got my first fan fret in late Janurary, a Goliath 7 from Orsmby. They have one of rhe most extreme multiscales/fanning of frets, it goes 25.5-27.8" for a 7 string(27.5" for 6, and 28.3" for 8). I ordered their headless Metal V 7 soon after, and man its amazing. I got it in D-G-C-F-A#-D-G tuning, they picked me the guages and did a setup, using 13, 17, 32w, 42, 52, 68, 80. It doesnt have much pitch drift, even at this SUPERLOW tuning.

[@nickk6109]

I think you need to take into account the string gauge you'd normally use.I built my own 28.625" scale from scratch but I use a heavier strings so that would change your test. I wrote my own application to calculate the frequency and fret distances based on guitar scale length, the mass of the string and the tension. The mass (which related to the gauge) then varies for each fret (the string gets shorter for example). The argument with anti-nodes and where the pickup is placed is undone by the fact that as you fret the string, the length changes, the mass changes and so the position of the anti-nodes along the string change with each fret. Also there's not one wave on the string either - your pick actually creates a travelling wave and this creates a very complex waveform as it reflects back and forth between the nut and bridge until it dies out. The pickup would pick that up too. The tension difference and mass of the string also changes this standing wave between the different guitars too. The key bit here is there's not a single answer that fits all. There is a mathematical formula that shows the relationship.

[@mlsoundlab]

Yup you're right. But then it becomes likely impossible to perfectly match tension and string gauge right? Kind of goes to show that the big changes in tone have so much to do with the strings themselves.

[@nickk6109]

@@mlsoundlab One of those things - build it and see what works better for what you want rather than attempt to calculate/simulate it all for every possible situation.

[@philippgrunert8776]

I think placement of the pickups adjusted to the same overtones according to the scale difference ratio would have been suitable as a baseline. Also did you change string thicknesses to have the tension similar? Other than that thank you for undertaking this.

[@jnbovee]

Clicked on video, thumbs up already.

[@TheGeekosDen]

the difference is audible, but it wont matter in the final mix after mastering the song

[@vw9659]

Unfortunately you failed to adjust the relative pickup position for each scale. So we hear different comb filtering. Jim Lill's scale length video equated relative pickup position on each scale. He also isolated the effect of string tension by first testing the different tensions that result for same-tuning at each scale, and then secondly setting the tension the same across scales by adjusting string gauge. So a much better isolation of all the effects involved. You didn't say if you adjusted picking position for each "scale". That has the same comb filtering effect as pickup position. With all those things well controlled, I doubt we would have heard any difference between small scale differences, like Fender's 25.5" and Gibson's 24.75", when tension is set the same (by using slightly higher gauge on the Gibson scale, as many players do).

[@mikedamisch]

Me playing A# on 24.75 (with evertune)

[@mlsoundlab]

Evertune helps!! My Evertune baritone has quite thin strings too.

[@AbstractLogic1]

Mikko, there was a post on Nolly's instagram about this a while back that proposed the idea that changing scale length with a normal sized humbucker may be changing something we aren't accounting for. I'll leave the quote here to hopefully not misrepresent it. "The longer the scale length, the more spread apart the overtones are along the string, so your pickup sees a narrower range of harmonics. If you think about it, it's a bit like shrinking the pickups on a regular scale instrument. Shorter scale lengths will mean the pickup sees a broader range of harmonics."

[@taylolz]

This may be why shorter scales sound fatter, it's getting the lower harmonics closer together above the pickup.

[@ToneScientist]

Yeah, that's the pickup's magnetic aperture. I have a video that talks about this on my channel if you want to check it (I'm not allowed to post the link here, it's called "Why do different guitars sound different? Pickup, scale length, nodes and harmonic series")

[@AbstractLogic1]

@@ToneScientist thanks for this info, I'll check it out!

[@francobuzzetti9424]

i think though interesting this is a flawed train of thought, you're just going slightly to a more neck pickup sound the higher in frets you go, objectively speaking the longer the scale the darker it sounds, that's why violins are small and cellos are big despite of tuning, there's also the fact that more tension usually translate to higher harmonics being heard more that's why it's said that shorter scales sound "warmer" which it's a fancy way of saying rolled off high end anyway i still this doesn't matter a guitar still sounds like a guitar, just get the most comfortable(string tension and playability) and best looking one(the best metric there is in guitar)

[@mlsoundlab]

I tried minimizing this effect by pulling the bridge pickup out and placing it against the bridge. 😮

[@JMelodic]

To me scale length gives the most difference to playing feel and tone than anything else

[@mlsoundlab]

I'm starting to think it's the most important spec on your guitar. 😮

[@ToneScientist]

Sorry but that experiment is kinda faulted cuz everytime you shorten the scale, the pickup always stays in the same position but, in relation to the scale length, it's like you're moving it towards the neck actually, so it's no surprise you get a darker tone. If there was a way to move it proportionally to the scale length and also narrow down its magnetic aperture, you'd realize that tone doesn't change that much due to the scale length alone, if at all. I recently made a video on my youtube channel that talks about this too, if you want to check it (I'm not allowed to post the link here, the title is "Why do different guitars sound different? Pickup, scale length, nodes and harmonic series")

[@mlsoundlab]

Check the clip where I show the guitar. I've pulled the bridge pickup out and right up against that bridge to minimize this effect. 😊

[@ToneScientist]

@@mlsoundlab oops, totally missed that part, well done 👍🏼

[@dexterj5615]

I'm gonna use this on my girlfriend as an excuse for buying even more guitars thanks buddy 😊

[@mlsoundlab]

Let's all do this!! 😮

[@picksalot1]

Unfortunately, the term "Scale length" actually defines the measurement distance between intervals, and not string tension and resonance, etc. It is total "String Length" from the fixed/connections of the strings, usually the Tuners, and where the Ball Ends strings are fastened, that define tension and pitch for a particular string gauge. Because Scale length and String Length tend to be related, they are often used interchangeably, but this is incorrect. To get a good pitch performance from a string, it needs to be at a certain tension, and that tension is achieved through a proper String Length and String Gauge. This is why Short Scale Basses require very heavy guage strings so they can achieve a string Tension that sounds decent at a Standard Pitch. If you understand this, you can understand why things like headstock design, such as 3 on a side, 6 on a side, reverse headstock, and headless make a difference. As do fixed bridge, tied and pinned bridges, various types of tailpieces, Tremolo units, string through body, and locking nuts and saddles.

[@mlsoundlab]

Are you saying that if there's more string in the headstock after the nut then the string tension has to be different for the same pitch? 😮

[@picksalot1]

@@mlsoundlabYes. Longer "string lengths" require more string tension to achieve the same pitch. When tuning strings of different lengths to the same pitch, the longer string will need higher tension to match the shorter string. This is because the longer string has a greater mass and vibrating length, requiring more force to reach the desired pitch. Imagine holding a string weighing one pound between your hands at shoulder width so it is hanging loose. To lift that string so it is now parallel to the ground will require a force "X" to lift that mass. If you double the length of string, you will also automatically double the mass if it is the same gauge, and that will require 2X force to lift the string so it is parallel to the ground. Look inside a Grand Piano. The Bass strings are very long and thick, and the Treble strings are short and thin. By varying the Mass/Gauge, and Length of the strings, a workable amount of tension can be applied to the strings to bring them up to a standard pitch. Imaging the amount of tension it would take to tune up a "long" Bass string to the "short" treble string's pitch even if they are the same gauge. There is a big difference in mass between those strings due to their length, and the tension needed to be applied to the string is "distributed along its entire length of the string." Regular frets and saddles affect the "scale length," but do not define the "string length" and how that affects string tension.

[@squidcaps4308]

Would've been nice to see average spectrograph, since string length should emphasize the fundamental frequency more, not less. We can be fooled by harmonics, hearing more prominent 2nd and 3rd can create an illusion of stronger fundamental frequency too. Specially when distortion is added, which does give way more harmonics than fundamental. The harmonics of a shorter neck should be more complex, not less. Less complex give more fundamental, which should give more low. But of course, it does reflect to both directions, up and down when the fundamental is "choked", and more clarity, simpler harmonics when it is the right length. There is "worlds longest piano" videos here in youtube that has the sound of a piano with "proper" string lengths and it is quite harsh and way less complicated than a "truncated" piano that is the piano we know. So, we expect more harshness with longer strings at the low note, and less "being broken", whereas shorter strings have to be more complicated, "sweeter".

[@james2578]

you should buy a light bulb

[@t23c56]

This test doesn't really show anything unfortunately. ------------|-- normal pickup ------|-- extreme shortened scale length You'd have to also keep the pickup at the same fraction of the string length for it to show what scale length does on its own. I suspect that the majority of the sound change you hear is due to the pickup just sounding more like a neck pickup. I don't disagree with your results though, longer will have more tension obviously, just that you haven't isolated one variable. This also really clearly illustrates the tuning stability of shorter guitars.

[@r-d-v]

Are you sure it’s scale length and not string tension? I know they’re related but consider this: the scale length adjusts the string tension and the position of where the harmonics vibrate along the string. In your experiments you changed the position of harmonic resonance on the string, but the string tension couldn’t stay the same. I’d be interested in the same test, but where you restring each time to keep the string tension as close to the same as possible. Thick strings on a 24” scale length could alleviate some of the muddiness

[@Chris-MusicTheoryAndFretboard]

Rick Beato tested string thickness with his "Does Size Matter?" video.

[@sasha-v4j]

this is real research !

[@peterstephen1562]

Invalid test procedure here. You are ignoring the effect of using string not tuned to there intended tension. You are cultivating an aura of rational analysis but in three videos from you that I have watched the reasoning is faulty.

[@HunnysPlaylists]

All wood vibrates differently, and tone is vibration. the different density of the pulp between the rings, the shape and thickness of the rings. I will never not be amused by the grapefruit-level intellects who will be "skeptical" of tonewood just because it requires a bit of abstract thinking to understand; but will push the importance of minutia to compensate. valley arts strats (which had gibson scale lengths) were no less bright than fender ones, just easier to play. What then: you don't care, it's about looking like a "kid who reads" not actually being reasonable. grapefruits will start talking about the make of frets and pickguard material determining tone, but categorically deny the vibration and stability of THE MATERIAL THAT 90% OF THE GUITAR IS MADE OF just because "believers" (LOL) recognize that wood has physical properties as well.

[@vidamansa1337]

what are your thoughts on jim lill

[@HunnysPlaylists]

@@vidamansa1337 What and who?

[@HunnysPlaylists]

@@vidamansa1337 Is he the guy trying so sell $3000 plywood guitars in 2010?

[@vidamansa1337]

@@HunnysPlaylists google is your friend

[@HunnysPlaylists]

@@vidamansa1337 oh, he makes videos?

[@nathanclave]

Next is evertune vs fixed bridge please!

[@mlsoundlab]

This would be a good one for sure! -Kai

[@mlsoundlab]

Kai did you make clips before the mod!?!?

[@steponmeirene]

Jim Lill debunked this one

[@mlsoundlab]

Jim Lill is awesome! I think he only used a telecaster type scale though?