Classic TBC Feral Tank Guide. Everything you need to know to be the best bear in WoW ! Ft. Toren

[@Scottejaye]

I hope you enjoy the extensive knowledge Toren has to share. Be sure to give him a sub over on his youtube channel! kzbin.info/door/FfABk7aRQjbMUsdI3ZcRdg

[@YarpenZ64]

extensive knowledge is nice and all but his mic is so so bad. Dude needs to upgrade.

[@benshiffler]

"Extensive knowledge" when he didn't even know that Shredding Attacks reduces lacerate's rage cost. Right.

[@xSiC84]

Earthwarden, legs from quest in blades edge and ring from Lower city rep puts you almost at the expertise cap and Is required in my opinion.

[@anytown3821]

Currently in classic, if you click off the debuff of enrage you still take the armor penalty for the duration it would have originally been applied.

[@oceantume]

Not true in TBC Classic anymore

[@zhw3508]

I think we need discuss more about the armor. Although the increased value in reduction is decreasing when you have more armor, the increase in the ability of taking damage is not changing. Assume you have 20k hp and one boss hits 1k without reduction, use your armor for example. When you have 132 armor, you can take 20.25 hits, when you have 682 armor, you can take 21.29 hits, which means 550 armor help you take 1.04 more hits. When you have 2720 armor, you can take 25.15 hits, when you have 3270 armor, you can take 26.19 hits, which means 550 armor also help you take 1.04 more hits. So the value of armor never changes no matter how many armor you already have before reaching the cap.

[@toren4062]

If you have 20k hp and 10k armor we use term effective hp to determine how much dmg we can take. Effective hp is hp*dmg reduction. Thus 20k*45,537. With 20k armor its 20k*62,578 of effective hp and finally with 30k armor its 20k*71,496. All of these are easy attainable by ferals, and all of these are against lvl 73mobs(bosses). As you can see first 10k armor gives approximately double the value of 2nd 10k

[@Gummibrandur]

@@toren4062 Your effective HP is not HP*mitigation, its HP/(1-mitigation). You can verify this by assuming 100% mitigation, then you take no damage and should have infinite effective HP.

[@toren4062]

Oh yeah sorry, effective hp has that formula I fluffed that, looked wrong, but I didnt notice. But still effectivity of armor falls down terribly

[@zhw3508]

@@toren4062 I am not sure about how effective hp should be calculated. It seems to be the total damage from the boss, then we want effective damage*(1-reduction)=20k, isn't it? So effective damage=20k/(1-reduction). Then 20k/(1-0.45537)=37622.41, 20k/(1-0.62578)=53444.82, 20k/(1-0.71496)=70167.22. Both increments are 16722.41.

[@DerJulesWoW]

@zh w you are 100% correct. Armor does not have deminishing returns. Every point of armor adds the exact same eHP regardless of you being at 0 or 30.000 armor. This can be proven by looking at the armor damage reduction formula: DR% = Armor / (Armor + 400 + 85 * (AttackerLevel + 4.5 * (AttackerLevel - 59))) Reduced to a very simple version this turns into: Armor/(Armor+X) Which shows that there is nothing that devalues the stat when you gain more of it. Edit: @Toren : you say that in order to get the last % of DamageReduction (DR) from armor the required amount of armor is a lot more than at low % of DR. While that is absolutely correct, the value of the last % of DR before armorcap is a lot higher than the value of the first % of DR. These two effects completely negate each other which leads to armor having a linear effect on eHP.

[@Sturm_VII]

Just started classic choosing Feral tank and came across this video. Good guide, thank you.

[@frankschwarz408]

42:42 he is talking about the Glistening Fire Opal (4 agility and 5 defense rating) Orange gem from Heroic Mana Tombs. He said "rare ring" but I'm sure he meant rare gem. As he was comparing it to the epic gems from Mt. Hyjal.

[@TurboNemesis]

Intensity is really good for the road to 70. My Druid is currently lvl 65 and feral specced with all the same talents shown here. If you keep and updated set if healing gear on you, you can seamlessly switch to healing in dungeons. It's the most fun I've ever had with an MMO class because I can effortlessly swap between melee dps, tank, and healer. I know once I get to 70 I'll have to commit to a build in order to be viable for heroics and raids but right now the flexibility is amazing.

[@hoggbosss6562]

hey great video all in all 2 thumbs up!!! just was wondering as far as consumes go if we can get a picture of how many buffs/ pots u are able to use .

[@AtillaDaPun]

There is some crazy good information in this vid! Toren is a bonafide galaxy brain!

[@BananaRaccoon]

You should be using bear form in PvP. Pre-bearing stuns and for example, when your healer is in CC to mitigate damage is a key part of feral gameplay and always has been.

[@mladendenni7062]

depends

[@nifeislive]

Any tips for keeping aggro on 4+ mob packs when there are mages blizzing, locks multi-dotting and shammies chain lightning?

[@lek1223]

decide which dps you like the least and dont bother to do anything about the mob that guy is attacking

[@bikespj22]

If the mage is using blizzard they should be slowed. So you want to taunt one stun one charge the one closest to the mage and lacerate one. Just try to keep then in the blizzard. You're not a pally it wont be easy.

[@wowprobeast7543]

@@bikespj22 lots of mages don’t take the slow talent so I doubt it

[@cmack6275]

Swipe as much as possible. Hit target with maul, once you hit with maul switch target and repeat. Landing a maul on each target usually holds threat if your constantly swiping. And if one is moving towards mage because it takes too long use your taunt. If 2 are going towards mage use your stun. If he keeps getting aggro he'll learn the hard way lol.

[@Allexstrasza]

tbh, can't stand playing with druids as tanks in dungeons, keep away and go MT some boss. Just like the channel owner doesn't bother to LoS when pulling or even trying to stun or taunt mobs off dps

[@daethe]

Aldor/Scryer is 100% preference. They are virtually statistically identical in what you will get from them.

[@RoliRegenbogen]

I am watching this every now and then but I kinda cant find the part where he talks about Leggings of Immortal Night vs Beast...can you help me out?

[@childowar]

Did they change the heavy cleft hoof set, cause I made all 3 and I'm only half way to Def cap. Just curious if there's an updated version of this info?

[@zaknefain100]

dem Bears! As a Rogue (which everyone hates these days), I love em.. their TPS is awesome. Go hard, go fast, no problem...

[@frankschwarz408]

Did they cover enchants? 2 percent threat or 15 agility to gloves?

[@OogieTheMad]

If savage fury doesn't do anything for the bear, why take it?

[@TurboNemesis]

Being able to seamlessly switch to melee dps is good. You wont always be MT and sometimes just there isnt anything for the OT to do besides be dps. Bear is most easily able to make that switch. But like they said, shredding attacks is probably the better option anyway since it benefits both bear and cat.

[@Kouraisija]

Very good points, helps a lot with a new druid tank.

[@ziggo6093]

Thanks Scottejaye for this vid

[@Scottejaye]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@MRkriegs]

There is an armor cap and a max amount of armor you could get so this is not realistic for wow but: if you go from 98% damage reduction to 99% damage reduction it is going to take a LOT of armor to do that and it is for simply 1% more damage reduction on the tooltip. If you get hit by 100 physical damage with 98% reduction you get hit a 2. If you have 99% reduction you get hit a 1. Thus taking 50% less damage from that 1% of damage reduction you gained from all of that armor you gained going from 98%-99%. You can use lots of different damage and armor % points though mine is just a very simple way to put it. Am I wrong? I just have never understood this. If you look at the other comments it verifies what I am saying with realistic wow numbers. I am not saying you would want to stack armor for more effective health that Toren is saying but the more armor you get does not get diminished value in that sense. Right?! errrr Like would the same amount of armor it takes to go from 0-50% reduction get you from 98-99% reduction?

[@Gummibrandur]

Its hard to verify since you cant actually get 98% reduction from armour, but yes in theory you should need exactly the same amount of armor to get from 0-50% as getting from 98-99%

[@genestarwind928]

If you go from 98% dmg reduction to 99% dmg reduction, then you are taking HALF as much dmg. This is why armor doesn't have DR. It just looks like it does.

[@MRkriegs]

@@genestarwind928 ok yea. Thanks!

[@Tree-Pyro]

@@MRkriegs I believe the damage reduction from armor is capped at 75%, but if it weren't a 98%->99% would be double as effective, but the graph for damage reduction from armor is logarithmic-ish meaning it it harder to get more mitigation the more armor you have. Meaning even without the hard cap at 75% it would still be impossible to get even 90% damage reduction in practise seeing as you need (if we're assuming it doesn't break from the graph) 100000+ armor to get it this also means that yes, armor does have diminishing returns, unlike how so many others are claiming. The graph I'm talking about it DR%=A/(A+X) where DR% is the damage reduction in percentage from armor, A is armor and X is the constant that depends on the what I belive is level of the attacker. X is (467.5*AL-22167.5), where AL is the attacker's level AND we're assuming AL is over 60, otherwise it would be a different formula.

[@MRkriegs]

@@jerrytillman4072 yo idk what u want me to say. We all understand DR but are u not looking at the math we have already done? U saying we did the math wrong? Ur just saying that's its DR and then mention crit, which we are not talking about. TLDR: ur wrong, we are all right lol.

[@Kaezlo]

In regards to raid hit, in both this and the feral dps nothing is mentioned about Draenai racial playing any role in hit cap. Is 1% hit from a melee class not a bankable raid buff for gearing? Inspiring Presence: Mages, Priests, and Shamans can all increase the chance to hit with spells by 1% for themselves and all party members nearby. Heroic Presence: Hunters, Paladins, and Warriors can all increase the chance to hit with weapons by 1% for themselves and all party members nearby. While this (and Inspiring Presence) probably don't stack, they're still a very handy ability to have, especially when you're facing off enemies a level or two above you. They also go along nicely with Paladin auras.

[@drucilogjones6636]

He mentions about changing form and hope you don't get hit if a GCD is up - but there is a workaround with a GCD Check Macro #showtooltip /script local GCD=GetSpellCooldown("Dire Bear Form")if GCD==0 then CancelPlayerBuff("Dire Bear Form")end /stopmacro [form:1] /use Mana Potion Injector /cast Dire Bear Form() You can change the /use Mana Potion Injector to pretty much any potion/healtstone you desire

[@Padthai_Shrimp]

Nurturing instincts for feral tank? but it says it only works for cat. Does it work hidden?

[@christopherwoods9830]

There are green gloves with expertise in phase 1 from a nether storm quest

[@kloepel]

So is Crit Immunity always needed? For example for easier/farm content?

[@Rewyn09]

No. You don't even always need it for progress at the moment. As long as you won't die to an unlucky combination of hits, including a crit, you don't need crit immunity

[@Dawgzihk]

One question: What about the Fortitude of the Scourge enchant from Naxx? Would you use it over the Aldor/Scryer ones?

[@THKNTV]

I hear a lot of talk about bears pushing crushing blows off the hit table. When is this something they can feasibly do?

[@coldfate1]

Never

[@staplesfoley]

It's never really feasible, there is sets that can do it with enough dodge but they require way to much priority for dodge and leave you lacking else where

[@pieropinocchio8079]

What addons are u using?

[@2konfucjusz]

There is no such thing as "armor diminishing returns" - armor gives less mitigation per point, because that's how % work, with higher % value the benefit is exponential, so the value per point has to go down.

[@jackc6299]

Thanks for the vid. You provided a good overview of Bear towards end-game. Its good to have the direction to head for. My Bear is relatively new in classic, so no raid gear. There is a gap from where I am, to what you are covering. If I get pre-raid BIS (classic) am I good enough to run all the Hellfire and Zangermarsh dungeons?

[@andrewhood4640]

@jack c I know from experience that you are good to tank in quest greens/communal gear. Just limit to one group of mobs at a time. Your group will usually understand if you are open with them about your limits. If they are not understanding, leave. DPS are easy to find

[@johanlahti84]

I don't feel the hit hunting is worth it. Sure it helps on pull. But it is really hard as bear in p1 to find hit. On cat it is hard to not exceed the cap on the other hand. I run like 4% hit when tanking and that feels fine. Though i have shapeshifters and earthwarden so some expertise to remove some parrys and dodges.

[@micahlarimer155]

diminishing return calc that he does is oversimplified. It is not as significant as he makes it out to be because when you go from 10% dmg reduced by armor to 20% you didn't get 10% more, you went from taking 90% total damage to 80% total damage which is 11.11% reduction. Armor does have diminishing returns, but it is not as stark as the simple math he was doing provides. This gets crazier at higher armor values, 70% -> 75% reduction sends you from taking 30% to 25% total damage, a full 16.66% reduction.

[@genestarwind928]

Armor does not have DR

[@johannesgeldermann6661]

Big Mistake in Understanding Armor, it has high Value until you hit the Cap against Bosses. Percentage rises slower, but the higher you go the less you need to be effektive, because if there would not a Cap, you would come closer and closer to Invulnerability. Quick Example: 98% to to 99% is not 1 Percent less Damage, its 50% less. And 99% to 100% would be total immortality from the last tiny 1 Percent! Going for the Armorcap can be a very good thing, especially against crushing blows!

[@Yorashy]

As a druid i want to have dual talents in TBC, not only do we have 4 specs, there are pvp builds too, it'd be good to have at least 2 of them on demand.

[@coocoocachoo7114]

Will you go for Aldor or Scryer ?

[@Yorashy]

@@coocoocachoo7114 as i did back in the day: Aldor

[@Elennpto]

@@Yorashy i wanna go resto druid at 70, which one should i go for?

[@titologan7432]

16:00 lacerate stackz 1501 times on sabe target, :D

[@cookie_dough6605]

Great video guys 👍amazing content 🔥druid hype 💙

[@Legend011]

Only time i ever really used hurricane is those dumb packs before steam vaults second boss. For swipe vs lacerate for single target, i always just kind of assumed the point when swipe is better as a filler is once you get 4p t6 (15% dmg on swipe)

[@staplesfoley]

Theres a straight AP threshold for when swipe is better than lacerate spam too but can't remember the number haha

[@Rhinopiek]

@@staplesfoley think its somewhere round 2500-2600.

[@southoboy1]

wait, i dont have lacerate, how do i get that

[@Tree-Pyro]

You train it at a starting level of 66

[@Dawgzihk]

Great guide, thanks a lot for sharing Toren.

[@mosquito6581]

Anyone know the power shifting macro to use a health potion or Health stone in bear form ?

[@thatrogueguy123]

Still need?

[@mosquito6581]

@@thatrogueguy123 no ty. Found it

[@henryromero6213]

Where did you find it? Need macros :(

[@mosquito6581]

@@henryromero6213 /cancelform /cast cat form

[@mosquito6581]

Or if your tanking in bear and need to use health potions etc /cancelform / use Major Healing Potion /cast Bear form

[@Kupoinfo]

Thanks for the video

[@reggieledeux8591]

Dude took like 10 minutes to say armor stats have diminishing returns

[@nerffpv723]

That's called "fluffing" and it's very heavily used in business meetings.

[@Gummibrandur]

The armor formula is not really unfavorable at higher armor levels. With the numbers from the video and a fight where you die in 10 hits with 0 armor. Then with the naked case of 1.23% reduction you die in 10.12 hits, but with the chest piece and 6.07% mitigation you die in 10.65 hits. When going from the full set without the chest at 20.49% mitigation you die in 12.58 hits, but with the chest and its 23.65% mitigation you die in 13.10 hits. In both cases the chest piece is letting you survive 0.52 extra hits. Just think about how dodge gets better the closer you get to 100% dodge. Armor would be the same and it would gain more value the more you stack it if every armor value gave you the same mitigation % (just like how dodge rating gives a fixed dodge %). The reduction you are seeing is exactly there to counter this increasing returns, not to give you diminishing returns.

[@toren4062]

That is not true, ita basically case as it is with arp, more you have, thus closer you get to zero bigger the impact. First 1k armor is much more impactful than last 1k in reaching 35th k. Dodge is great because it avoids dmg altogether so no need to heal (thus healing required isnt piling up, but makes room to get a jump) and later that you need around 13-15 agi on gear with kings to get 1% (dont recall exact number, but its the lowest of all classes and avoidance stats).

[@janwolff6220]

this is true

[@sNNNNNable]

Aldor or scryer If you're the only feral in raid and will be tanking and dps'ing

[@tralx5268]

doesnt matter

[@staplesfoley]

Waaay over prioritising maul, the threat multipler was ruined in tbc compared to classic(when it's literally your only decent threat), you now only maul with excess rage, I would never open with it over a mangle or building lacerate, you mangle on CD and spam lacerate with every gcd not used on mangle, lacerate applications even when already at 5 stacks is the most effective threat regen until swipe scales, even on 3 adds as he used as an example you'd be better off lacerating the 3 of them than swiping for now

[@thockyslush]

man i LOVE your content i wanna join for the full versions of these but can’t find the button ? edit: might already be joined 😎 edit 2: no i’m not. how do i join !

[@Stompinwind]

Engage is key prepull

[@MrChopsuy]

after rewachting, the talent part is kinda bad. Improved Leader is useless realy, savage fury is barely any dmg gain because you use mangle if the buff runs out and not for dmg. claw and rake is useless in pve, as pure cat or as offtank. nurturing Instinct doesnt realy do anything aswell only a bit more healing to you WHEN you are cat. Intensity is a must for dungeons and when you go from cat to bear in raids. Primal Tenacity could be cool 10% chance to resists fear/stun but i would put the last 4 points into Feral aggresion. because if you dont have a warri in your grp/raid you can put up a bigger debuff and if you are a cat and use Bite you have a stronger bite.

[@doncheto4825]

3 points for ten rage is worth lol

[@alecmarro8606]

Why would anyone wana know sunwell gear?

[@genestarwind928]

You can't cancel the enrage debuff. The armor debuff lasts the duration, even if you click off the buff.

[@MrChopsuy]

everytime i play the improved Leader of the Pack seems like a waste because of the extremly low heal and most of the time its overheal. i dont see why people like it so much

[@mariuscroitoru4983]

I agree!

[@johanlahti84]

I have it always. But not because it heals in raids. But when farming primals etc. It is awesome.

[@MrChopsuy]

@@johanlahti84 just prehot yourself with rejuv pre pull

[@danstokes1138]

I couldn’t listen to this. Toren’s mic sounds like he’s sat in a well.

[@xSiC84]

No crowd pummeler for tbc, so ima haste potion shift macro for my bear lol. Cheat when and where I can :)

[@michaelvitale7247]

Haste is a lot worse in TBC cuz Maul went from your best threat ability, to your worst. So fast auto attacks are a lot leas valuable (not worthless obviously)

[@xSiC84]

@@michaelvitale7247 I would use it for more rage generation. At least that was my idea.

[@Mr2tonearmy]

You aren't Skarm!?

[@hoit_430]

2 weeks - feels longer bro

[@Scottejaye]

yea probably was alot longer lol

[@mashadarii]

paladin can get more avoidance, guys.

[@staplesfoley]

I assume he means full avoidance, when pala and war talk avoidance they include block which is the largest part of it(I assume because of boosting on pala when high block value when hit by lower level mobs is actually fully avoided) but generally block is not a complete damage avoidance you still take some dmg and depending how hard the boss/mobs are hitting the blocks might be a fraction of the total dmg hitting you, bear on the other hands avoidance is dodge actual avoidance not just mit, which is literally 0 dmg taken

[@InnuendoOutTheOther]

I couldn't listen to this with porn music playing in the background. Don't need music behind commentary, its not FM radio.

[@Scottejaye]

Fair enough, never personally been on a live stream without some good ol’ porn music on in the background though.

[@TheMoldyOne]

I keep hearing how no other Tanks can get as much Avoidance as the druid buy Warriors can get over 100% Avoidance...... Also Unlike in original TBC we can Min max better knowing all gear and stats needed for a fight we can easily push for more DPS. Druids are great but they are way overrated. when you hear them talk about how good they are, and you really look into it they are not really that great. comes down to knowing how to play your class. Late into phase 5 druids have more hp But Damage reduction and Avoidance is no different than a warrior. and early game phase 1-2 a good warrior tank beat a druid. I have not yet seen phase 3-4 druid gear, but I would assume same results. Warrior tank will be the best against single targets druids and paladins will be good against any multiple mobs.

[@omegalul9992]

if moosty sees this VI VON ZULUL

[@mysticvoodoo1264]

Cant understand him thanks

[@MrDulvalius69]

Ugg, bad mic, that bugs me so much. Spend $100 on a headset for fucks sake.

[@Dome31337]

Bear sucks as MT due to crushing blows.

[@bernardberkner3399]

That's why they have that fat health and armor is to be able to minimize the impact of the crushing blow and soak it all up (if they don't dodge it in the first place)

[@toren4062]

As Bernard said, plus nit all bosses crush. Brutallus doesnt crush at all, felmyst does

[@Dome31337]

@@toren4062 You are talking about absolute end game bosses. But what when you start raiding with mostly blue items? You will get obliterated as Bear in Karazhan.

[@Klaital1]

@@Dome31337 There isn't a single boss in Karazhan that hits the tank notably hard. In fact, thinking about it, only boss before tier 6 content that actually hits the tank hard is High King Maulgar.

[@holysecret2]

​@@bernardberkner3399 I have been playing around with a few builds for warrior tank as well as feral tank on seventyupgrades. Warriors seem to have an insane amount of stamina on their items, for instance 91 stamina on the T6,5 helm, compared to 58 stamina on the feral tank T6,5 helm. Based solely on the 8 main armor pieces (bracers, chest, boots, and so on), it's about 150 stamina difference (actually more than that, since warriors have better socket bonuses from blue stamina gems). Taking into account the bear stamina multiplier it should be around 2.000 health or more advantage that a warrior is getting. The result seems to be that the dire bear form and heart of the wild stamina bonus is mostly mitigated for the warrior and both bear and prot warrior (according to seventyupgrades numbers) would have around 18.000 health unbuffed. Could you elaborate further on where that "big health pool" which a bear is supposed to have is coming from? As a feral tank myself I am invested in this issue, but from what I am seeing so far warriors do not have that much of a difference in terms of health.

[@Stompinwind]

This is a no brainer... this is s no brainer... th th th then don't make a video...