CLASSIC VS MODERN FANTASY

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I worked 15 hours straight yesterday to get this done, so I might be taking a break for tomorrow’s video. Something easy and quick.

[@Ekrapf21]

This is a wonderful video!!!!!

[@MRWHO-gt8zo]

Daniel Greene why not say that Classic Fantasy are more base on children and adults like Conan the barbarian,Narnia,Star war,All Tolkien books and wonderful widzard of Oz. Meanwhile modern fantasy are like postmodern one where there are those who are copies of Tolkien race, young adults fantasy and power systems people like Sanderson.

[@ryanratchford2530]

loved the floating head & hands, especially in the woods & the floating head over the background! XD It reminded me of Wii Sims or Extra Credit's cartoon style.

[@livcool6175]

@@ryanratchford2530 I loved when he was swept away by the water 9:11

[@meithstorm7662]

Maybe try something less ambitious, like Pokemon?

[@karelrindo13]

Daniel green has achive his godlike form as he now known as *Daniel Green Screne*

[@christopherbacon1077]

You mean Daniel Greene Screen

[@abigailsullivan3078]

Christopher Bacon 🤣

[@HanZsl]

@@christopherbacon1077 perfect

[@HeadCannon19]

Mochammad Karel Greene Daniel

[@MagusMarquillin]

Serene Daniel Greene Screen. Godhead.

[@derpimusmaximus8815]

I'm not sure if Daniel is coping badly with isolation, or if he's coping LIKE A BOSS.

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

Derpimus Maximus both? Both.

[@thelemmiebee]

Derpimus Maximus His head and arms, at least.

[@Hadrian1616]

This video is part classroom lecture, part invisibility cloak demonstration, part cabin fever extravaganza

[@turtleanton6539]

Its not diffrent from his normal life

[@AngryGoats555]

He’s done it. The lad has turned himself into Rayman

[@Mistborn_San]

Daniel turned into a VR game protagonist!

[@spotted7664]

the* VR game protagonist

[@spencerd6126]

In some ways, Lord of the Rings is a “modern” fantasy novel. Aragorn May be the classic hero, but he’s not the protagonist of the story and he knows it. Meanwhile, the actual protagonist, Frodo, ends up with PTSD. It’s not really that close to books published now, but you can still see how it’s a stepping stone from the “classic” stories like King Arthur

[@davidsandlin9686]

Spencer D I always thought Samwise was the hero of Lord of the Rings.

[@azarishere6442]

@@davidsandlin9686 no it was Billy the horse

[@Lodatzor]

Thank you for understanding the depth of LotR. The movies have done such a disservice to the quality of the story.

[@omkarvarudkar3149]

Well the real hero was gwaihir the wind lord

[@therandominfochannel6619]

@@davidsandlin9686 Sam is the real hero, but Frodo is still the protagonist. The protagonist isn't necessarily the hero. Though I'd say Frodo is A Hero, just not THE hero. The same is true of the other characters in the fellowship. All heroic figures in their own right. But they're kind of like the support and side characters to Frodo and Sam, who it all comes down toin the end. We follow the story primarily following Frodo's quest to destroy the ring, but without Sam's heroic bravery and loyalty it wouldn't have happened of course. I guess there's really allt of ways to look at it haha

[@MaxCadyS]

Let's see here... Modern: - Grittier, flawed characters. - More likely to have morally grey plots and characters - Sanderson revolutionised the magic system, popularising exclusively hard magic systems - Less complex prose - Less allegory - More diverse settings - Subversion of modern tropes is common - More character driven than plot driven (although they're not mutually exclusive - Sanderson does both really well.) - Almost always 1st / 3rd person limited - Many utilise plot twists Some examples of modern fantasy: The Stormlight Archives / Mistborn series, The First Law trilogy, ASOIAF, The Gentleman Bastards Classic: - More contrasted theme (ie. good vs evil) - Softer magic systems - Almost always inclusive of a prophecy - Medieval European inspired setting - Standard tropes without much subversion is the norm - Archetypical characters (ie. muscle bound warrior, wise old wizard, farmer/small town protagonist) - Plot twists are somewhat rarer or not as impactful - Sometimes uses 3rd person omniscient Some examples of classic fantasy: LOTR, The Belgariad, Narnia, Shannara

[@lostmyknife]

Thanks for this! As much as I liked the video, it went straight into deconstructing categories without first establishing what these entail and I was left wondering. Your comment helps a lot!

[@robertblume2951]

There isn't just 2 epochs.

[@MaxCadyS]

@@lostmyknife this is just my opinion of what constitutes modern vs. classic fantasy. Others may have differing criteria but this is just what I know from experience. There are of course some outliers - The Wheel of Time dips back and forth between the two categories and something like Harry Potter actually has a lot of classical fantasy traits.

[@MaxCadyS]

@@robertblume2951 never said there was.

[@robertblume2951]

@@MaxCadyS by listing only 2 you imply it.

[@BooksByBrecht]

Next up: Daniel using a full green morphsuit with only his eyes visible

[@NaytGaming]

Dis I Like

[@sarahrau1441]

His Jenna Marbles era

[@fairycat23]

I mean... he has pretty, eyes, so I fully understand keeping his eyes visible

[@HughMansonMD]

Eyes and mouth.. 👁 👁 👄

[@Ticcalein]

@@HughMansonMDthat reminds me of something... .... "moisturise me!"

[@wyattcole5452]

I saw his face floating in the sky and I immediately left the video out of fear

[@simoncollignon4437]

It’s a beholder

[@Iluvatar196]

He became the child spren of Honor

[@wyattcole5452]

@@Iluvatar196 thank you for reminding me how depressingly fast time goes, I remember commenting on this and yet it was almost a year ago, das crazy

[@Iluvatar196]

@@wyattcole5452 this pandemic does weird things to our brain

[@Polina-du6ub]

That intro is officially the best one yet

[@ThePreciseClimber]

Praised be our lord, Daniel Greene Screen.

[@MasterDrewboy]

SO FAR

[@DongusMcBongus]

I am here, your lord, your God…… Jagos.

[@hellglaser3450]

If the cover art could be airbrushed on the side of a van its classic

[@arte0021]

Man, book covers today went to total shit, didnt they? Before people hired actual artists to paint great fantasy landscapes , but now its basically " lets put some generic warrior or assassin on the cover and that it' or in some cases its not even a scene or a character but just the title on some pattern.

[@zachbarnes8906]

What about Stormlight Archive?

[@arte0021]

@@zachbarnes8906 i guess thats an exception to the rule

[@craniifer]

I love hunting for old paperbacks and finding psychedelic pictures. I read Warlock in Spite of Himself based on the weird art and I didn't regret it.

[@EmperorSigismund]

@@arte0021 I miss Josh Kirby. That man really could absorb the madness of a Pratchett book and condense it right onto the cover

[@KingMob023]

(Classic protagonist) A farm boy who turns out to be the chosen one, (early modern protagonists) an orphan living on the streets in the big city who turns out to be the chosen one, (modern protagonist) A girl who was born on the farm but comes to the city and lives on it's streets after being orphaned turns out to be the chosen one.

[@DaDunge]

Eh the true classics are all sons of kings. Beowulf and Sigurd/Sigfried are both the sons of kings.

[@shamsham1229]

This intro has left me confused and terrified and mildly aroused.

[@moiissnoneofyourbusiness8957]

ShamSham 12 I felt the same things too 😔.

[@hamburglar8794]

Weirdo.

[@lichqueenmorri]

same but most eccentric, nerdy youtubers make me fell that way

[@ShalomDove]

“I’ve decided it’s no longer necessary to have a body to talk about fantasy..” Day 38 of quarantine: Danile’s sanity is beginning to crumble as his powers increase. This cannot end well...

[@ZlothZloth]

Very modern, though!

[@haillobster7154]

SCP 3812.....

[@laurensvanulden4367]

Just a tought: if Tolkien is classic fantasy, does it mean Robert Howard, E. R. Eddison or, further down the line, Jules Verne are ancient fantasy? :-D

[@MagusMarquillin]

Does that leave anything for Shelly, Milton, Shakespeare, Dante, Mallory, Ovid and Homer? Or are they all just ancient like Howard?

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

What about Ancient Greek myths? It all becomes labeled under “classic” which bothers me a LOT.

[@laurensvanulden4367]

@@DanielGreeneReviews Ovid and Homer? in the comment of Magus? But... is it fantasy. In that case you should also include the Edda (there's a nice version by Neil Gaiman) and the Egyptian books of the dead.

[@Erik_Armando_123]

Dudes, what about paintings on caverns walls?

[@robertblume2951]

@@Erik_Armando_123 painting has it's own seperate periods from literature.

[@grendelentertainment9642]

I’m 95% sure Daniel doesn’t really have a torso and is really a floating head with floating arms.

[@anthempt3edits]

He's reverse Pewdiepie

[@thatnerdygaywerewolf9559]

The shirts are a lie.

[@csbkota]

He's a real life Rayman ... :D

[@pavelowjohn9167]

9:51 This is probably your strongest delineation between 'classic' and 'modern'. "Flawed protagonists at the front and center". There were certainly flawed protagonists before the 1990s (Elric of Melnibone and Thomas Covenant spring to mind), but I believe that the last 25 years of fantasy writing has seen a marked shift in the popularity of gritty anti-heroes that are supposed to be more "realistic" than the Garions and Samwise Gamgees of the past. What drove this emphasis? That's a subject for another video......

[@francescosirotti8178]

Conan the Barbarian anyone? Fantasy has had anti-heroes and flawed characters since day one.

[@travislee6967]

Dont discount howards lesser known anti hero solomon kane

[@malcomalexander9437]

@@travislee6967 I'd say Bran Mak Morn is lesser known. Same with Red Sonya of Rogatino, and Dark Agens(Sonja is her own character whose creator was inspired by R.E.H's Red Sonya and Dark Agnes).

[@MaxCadyS]

Modern fantasy series seem to put more emphasis on characters than plot, modern fantasy is generally more morally grey than the classic 'good vs. bad', and in terms of writing, modern is almost exclusively first person or third person limited, whereas a lot more classic fantasy is third person omniscient. Funnily enough, Harry Potter is a modern fantasy that feels like much of its structure is written in an episodic classic fashion.

[@DavidScotton]

As I see it we basically transitioned from the era of Tolkien to the era of Martin over the years around 2000. Not that he was the first or only one to do it, but before ASoIaF it felt like the large majority of fantasy, especially fantasy that was commerically successful (Terry Brooks, David Eddings, Dragonlance novels, even Eye of the World) was to an extent immitating or building off of Tolkein. After the success of ASoIaF it seems like grimdark, morally ambiguous, trope-deconstructing fantasy really took off. I definitely see the Wheel of Time as kind of a transitional series, its roots are clearly Tolkien, it's mostly good vs evil, most of the main characters have plot armor (until the last book, damn you Brandon Sanderson), but as Daniel said it has much more complex, flawed protagonists and character growth.

[@ErrdilPhalar]

I chuckled when you listed Rothfuss as an author who is "still putting out content."

[@MaxCadyS]

What, you didn't like the book about fantastical Feng Shui, aka The Slow Regard of Silent Things?

[@ErrdilPhalar]

I just checked and it turns out Slow Regard came out in January 2014...

[@DemonMage]

You don't need to put out a book or two a year (Sanderson) to be an author that is still publishing (Rothfuss). That said, thank God for book four of the Stormlight Archive later this year after the Apocalypse has ebbed.

[@prathameshyemul6195]

George r r Martin is another different level himself

[@NobbsAndVagene]

@@DemonMage *laughs in continuing apocalypse: shreklectric boogaloo* Although for real, Rothfuss isn't publishing. Kingkiller 3 pushed back again. One would think he has no idea how to satisfyingly end it.

[@toothgnash]

In your reader poll - I'd be curious about the ages of the readers. Since the genre is always changing - people's idea of what divides modern from classic may have a lot to do with when they came of age as readers. Thinking of the old douglas adams quote about people's response to technology: "Anything that is in the world when you're born is normal and ordinary and is just a natural part of the way the world works. Anything that's invented between when you're fifteen and thirty-five is new and exciting and revolutionary and you can probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're thirty-five is against the natural order of things."

[@lordofdarkness4204]

toothgnash I would say most of his audience are teens and young adults who read adult fantasy

[@mandisaw]

It's apparent from the comments certainly that this is a classic "small reference pool" problem. When people think that Elric/Moorcock or the various Conan stories are "lesser known"...

[@alexm2134]

Daniel being swept away by the water xD 9:12

[@paulfelix5849]

"No fantasy author writing in the 80s that reads like something being written now." Michael Moorcock. Started on the early 60s. Latest book released 2017 (to my knowledge). Still the same.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

Good old MM, I read the Elric Saga back when I was 13, 14 years old, quickly followed by the Corum books and I think, in a way, that they ruined me for "normal" fantasy, at least until I was old enough to appreciate different styles. For a time, I even owned the Blue Oyster Cult CD with the song "Black Blade", co-written by Moorcock himself. Now those were the days, when a fantasy author could help craft a heavy metal song about a soul-drinking demonic sword from his books....

[@malcomalexander9437]

@@pavelowjohn9167 He also wrote two albums with Hawkwind: Warrior on the Edge of Time, and Chronicle of the Black Sword. WotEoT is more tangentally related to the Eternal Champion mythos, Chronicle is specifically about Elric(except for the song Needle Gun, which is about Jerry Cornelius).

[@malcomalexander9437]

Moorcock also did two other songs with BOC: Great Sun Jester, and Veteran of the Psychic Wars.

[@paulfelix5849]

Good to see people who know their Moorcock lore. The man might also be credited with inventing the concept of the "multiverse" used so much now.

[@fergalmoore862]

Early Elric is very different to the Post 60s Elric.

[@finkz5674]

Want to has more flowery fantasy. Something about that stylistic kind of language really helps immerse me into the fantasy world, especially if it takes place in a pseudo-medieval timeframe.

[@zoebrugg7594]

Thank you! (Runs off to write in classical style fantasy.)

[@CDMVIDZ]

Agreed, 100%. If you've not read it already, the MEMORY, SORROW, AND THORN series by Tad Williams is the epitome of Flowery Fantasy: lush, gorgeous prose that entirely surrounds you and transports you into his fully-realized world of Osten Ard. It's a series and a story inseparable from its style; the lushness is the point, and the pleasure of those books.

[@CDMVIDZ]

Also: wrote that last comment before I saw the tweet that references THE DRAGONBONE CHAIR. So...never mind!

[@newdivide9882]

I agree with that. It further helps to separate the story from the real world because, “Real people don’t speak that way today.”

[@jeffmiller6025]

I largely agree. When I was a wee baby nerd in the 80s, this exact discussion was happening and took the form of “Modern Fantasy” being LeGuin, Herbert, and (post-Empire) Star Wars vs. the “Classic Fantasy” of Tolkien and Lewis. Which, like it looks, involved a lot of discussion of Modern in terms of genre busting and problematizing binaries. Then, in the 90s, if you weren’t doing Sandman or Vlad Taltos... why were you writing? And Jordan, et al. were considered throwbacks to Tolkien, but even more overly wordy. We read and loved them all, but they were definitely considered “Classic.” Etc. Etc. Etc. All of which to say: it’s weird being old enough that this debate is just itself cyclical and funny. And old.

[@mandisaw]

Pretty sure I've been through exactly this debate as a high-schooler after-hours at the local sci-fi convention back in the early 90s. But I've gotta say, back then you were very likely to have if not read, at least heard of or seen, books by sci-fi/fantasy authors throughout the decades. Scanning the shelves at the bookstore, or talking to fellow fans of different generations was far more informative than just listening to internet echo-chamber blogs all referencing the same bare handful of authors/stories.

[@MirlieTheCat]

Me: amused, shaking with laughter😂 My cat, on my lap: please stop, that's not comfortable 😒 Well done👌 though the cat is still grumpy... Yet she refuses to leave... 🤔

[@jake61494]

I think I listened to the whole video and left still not having a clue what the difference between classical & modern styles are (as they are described now). Aside from maybe a mention of flowery prose, and characters with mental illnesses. I'd actually be more interested in hearing "these are some examples of some stylistic things we currently refer to as classical fantasy", and "here are some examples of some stylistic things we refer to as modern fantasy" rather than what felt like 13 minutes of "the descriptions don't matter much", or "classical because it was written like older stuff". It's easy to understand there is a wobbly fluid description of modern and classic, but when people use the terms today, they mean certain things today. And as someone new-ish to the discussion, I was hoping to learn more to be able to participate a little better. :\

[@robertblume2951]

The videos intent was to highlight the fact that as it stands the current definition as everyone is using it cuts out almost the whole history if the genre. As people, even in these comments, are using it classic means anything before 1990 but after Tolkien. And modern means everything from 1990 till now.

[@shawngillogly6873]

The problem I have with the "flawed protagonist" definition of modern fantasy is it's oversimplistic. Sword and Sorcery is replete with flawed protagonists. And is completely omitted from these discussions as a result. Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, and Elric had flaws. Elric was the original Gray Goo protagonist. And yes, Kay was writing flawed protagonists in the 80s, and Tolkien wrote Turin Turambar and Feanor before he published LotR. So yeah...oversimplistic. It's the apology used that doesn't get to the core of the disagreement. And even when I was a kid in the 80s, this discussion existed in the debate between High and Low fantasy. With Conan being the archetype of Low Fantasy, even though the world building would have planted it firmly among Epic Fantasies today.

[@henryvargasestrada2320]

So happy you brought out The Silmarillion.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Agreed; plus Frodo is a flawed protagonist; he literally would have claimed the Ring for himself if not for Gollum. Smaegol saved the day, in a very tragic way, not Frodo or Sam. And Frodo showed the very hefty psychological toll his journey had taken on him, being forever haunted by his wound and the Ring.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

And yes, thank you for mentioning Tolkien's whole legendarium!

[@kamuelalee]

Robert Howard, Michael Moorcock and Fritz Lieber -- Noir fiction fantasy writers - are the unsung heros of fantasy fiction. For their respective time periods they brought grit, high adventure, and a counterculture perspective that would inform later writers. These writers and others of the mid to late 20th century need more respect than they get, in my very humble opinion.

[@duffypratt]

Don’t forget Thomas Covenant.

[@ThePathOfEudaimonia]

I was a bit distracted throughout the video and imagined your mic being the protagonist of a story traveling through all the worlds you took him to... What a wonderful adventure that was.

[@gerald112b]

The line between Classic and Modern Doctor Who is much more clearly defined.

[@wp6007]

How to say nothing period in 13 minutes

[@honkmandeluxe]

It's been really nice seeing your quality rise with the channel dude, I appreciate the effort that you're clearly putting in

[@deg1studios]

There are three *BASIC* categories of fantasy books: "Pre-Tolkien" "Trying to be Tolkien" "Trying to subverse or stay away from Tolkien" Most *western* fantasy books can be placed in these categories without much fuss about subjectivety and what not. Once you zoom in and try to place them in more specific categories, you'll be more likely to start a heated debate than actually reach a conclusion.

[@infjelphabasupporter8416]

I like that, actually. It's kinda true.

[@thelemmiebee]

You’re seriously one of my favorite youtubers and are putting out the best content right now. Thanks for your hard and well thought out work!

[@benstannard3574]

Great video. Very thoughtful comparisons and careful definitions. I think embracing a broad spectrum of classic through to modern fantasy fiction gives the reader the biggest possible range of styles and types of books. Have you considered doing a video on the history of fantasy fiction? (e.g. starting with Dracula, Frankenstein, Peter Pan, all the way through to today, stopping at the benchmark authors and books)

[@giantsalsa3977]

5:45 great example of strategic positioning here, Daniel. I salute thee.

[@SlowBurnReader]

It’s like people forget the fact that everyone was inspired by some other author when they decide to write, and they can all vary, everyone was inspired by someone else. And that’s why each person can bring something new and interesting to the table, I love that, I love how we can all be unique.

[@holdenpop12]

Great video! Watching this 4+ years later it’s still really refreshing to see how well your content has aged. I would say even now with Sanderson being a “modern” fantasy author, his style/stories/tropes are all quickly becoming classics. Again just an indicator of your bell curve!

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

Hey, Daniel’s got an Invisibility Sweater.

[@deadpixel-bt7rw]

Why is viewing classic as a time frame bad? When we talk about classic literature, rock, music, films etc. It tends to mean a time frame. Yes that does mean that there will be different styles, themes, or be ahead of it's time and yes things change over time if you really want to follow that trajectory going over time is one of the best ways of understanding how things change and evolve.

[@mielipuolisiili7240]

Mainly because there isn't a commonly accepted classical time frame. When people use classical to mean a time frame of fantasy writing, they usually just mean whatever seems old to them personally, so using the term to refer to a specific time frame is in practise useless because people disagree on what that time frame ought to be. Classical music is used oftentimes succesfully to refer to a specific time frame. The reason why that works is becuse people agree on the time frame. When you ask a boomer and a zoomer for what they view as classical music coming from the classical time frame, their answer will be roughly the same. This can't be said for the definition of classical fantasy.

[@Evandir500]

What I got from this is that classic and modern fantasy is different, and similar, and that there is more nuance between the two, but what I wanted was a more detailed breakdown of the two forms

[@xsithspawnx]

Great video! I think you pretty well nailed it. Terms like Modern and Classical are always going to be used because they're useful shorthands for concepts that we usually all kind of have an idea of, but would take too long to have to describe in full every time we were discussing things in casual conversation. It can make it pretty easy to forget the malleability of the concepts that they represent though, so taking a closer look at the actual nitty-gritty of what we mean when we use them is fun and helps us all to have a better understanding of things we probably just kind of take for granted usually. Also, I love the floating heads and arms look. It works for you. XD

[@theodorekon]

This video reminds me of the first time I ever made a powerpoint presentation and tried to squeeze in every single animation and effect that was available :)

[@martinvuyk5326]

You just humbled me out of my fantasy of wanting to start a book review channel in spanish. Your editing is absolutely amazing, didn´t need to read how many hours it took: it is self-evident. Keep at it, boss. (btw just subscribed)

[@LiteratureScienceAlliance]

I for sure usually describe things in a more nuanced way, just last week I was thinking about how much I liked that Blood of Elves was different in writing style to robing hobbs farseer trilogy and the first few wheel of time since they are all published in the 90s and I typically have more issues with the style that was used then because my adult fantasy started with Sanderson who had a very different approach in writing style. Really loved this discussion, it kinda of lines up with what my parents and I were discussing last night, thanks for putting in the work!

[@albertocarlosjunior]

How i see: 1- Classic Fantasy tends to be more Plot Driven and Modern Fantasy is more Character Driven. The Classic that leaning toward Character Driven are about hero's journey (empowerment and growing). 2- The change toward Character Driven stories, in my interpretation, came during and after Vietnan War, when the "heroes" become broken and borderline's villains, this trends grown up after 9/11, with the conflits that came from it.

[@nozii889]

Problem is fantasy is no "american" genre to determines it with US history moments

[@briangallagher3106]

nozii you’re right fantasy isn’t an American genre but Alberto has a good point here. Vietnam changed a lot for the world and especially the Cold War in general, protagonists definitely became more antihero. And to think 9/11 didn’t have a world wide effect is a bit blind. These events played a huge role in all of fiction.

[@fatalblue]

I agree with this assessment and belive it also explains the whole idea of "modern" protags being flawed vs "classic" protags even though, as pointed out by many in the comments, flawed protags can be found in more classic fare as well. With the stronger focus on the characters it naturally puts their flaws to the forefront of the story and how it effects everything when as in more classic stuff its more about the plot/adventure so while the characters may be flawed as much as any modern one its not so in ones face making it easier to gloss over.

[@j.tlewis8625]

That’s a really interesting way to put it. You actually reminded me of MASH, where Father Mulcahy is trying to write a war song for Korea but just can’t because values have so drastically changed since WW2. Definitely makes sense why there’s an insurgence of anti heroes. Personally, I like grey characters, not really evil and not really good. Sure they can have qualities of each, but they’re never lawful good or chaotic evil.

[@DaDunge]

Perhaps that's why Europeans don't seem to have such a clear delineation. We stopped believing in heroes in the 10s.

[@shadetreesurgeon]

Great vid!

[@xLeechcraftx]

One day we'll have pre-modern contemporary neo-classic fantasy.

[@janhavi1977]

This was a really cool and informative video! 😊Me personally, I absolutely love classic fantasies. They’re so warm and fuzzy and the colors are so much brighter! Inns are some of my favorite things. I love when characters meet up at inns, something interesting always happens!

[@derekbeaumia8780]

I loved this video Daniel! One of the best I've seen regarding Fantasy evolution! Even though that may not have been what you were going for, SPOT ON!

[@rejoyy]

Hey Daniel. Could you do a "Top Fantasy Series that are complete" video? That would be helpful to us especially those who don't want to wait for the next book in the series to be released. Also would be fun to read them during this time of isolation. PS: would be extra nice if they have kindle versions.

[@Victoria-pt4io]

Glad to hear you’re reading Guy Gavreil Kay! He doesn’t get enough love :)

[@DavidScotton]

He is awesome, although I think Fionivar is some of his weakest work. A Song for Arbonne, The Lions of al-Rassan, and especially the Sarantine Mosiac are all amazing.

[@briangallagher3106]

I only discovered him last year and I loved A brightness of long ago. I have a bunch of his other books but haven’t got around to reading them. What do you suggest I pick up next? Maybe not his absolute best but one that’s up there?

[@robertblume2951]

@@briangallagher3106 sailing to sarotrium because it's about a mosaic builder. It's just so completely different then the majority of fantasy but so beautiful and engaging.

[@briangallagher3106]

Robert Blume excellent and that’s one of the books I bought too. Thank you. I’m finishing First Law Trilogy at the moment and I’m blown away by it. I love it.

[@robertblume2951]

@@briangallagher3106 this will be almost it's mirror opposite.

[@helenkrane6313]

The way I see fantasy authors/writing styles, is that there’s no definitive distinction where something is definitely “classic” or “modern “. At least for me. That’s not important to me. What’s important to me is the author’s ability to take me away to a different world, while sitting on my couch, bed, etc, reading. And this is only because as The Doctor put it, it’s all a big ball of timey wimmey stuff, as it should be.

[@kendrickputin2547]

Helen Krane that paragraph got away from you didn’t it?

[@helenkrane6313]

Kendrick Putin I guess so....

[@dcampbell6988]

I'm so glad you're gettig into Guy Gavriel Kay. The Fionavar Tapestry Is one of my favourite reads. If you are reading it currently, also read Ysabel as soon as you're done.

[@animefreakazoid01]

Really loving the dr who references!

[@ercrad3426]

I very much appreciate the nuances between different styles of fantasy. I loved this video and would love for you to make more content like this

[@alesswonderland]

Thank you Daniel for all of your effort on this video, but I realized floating head and hands Daniel might be one of my favorite Daniels. Edit: That clip of you going with the flow of the water was hilarious.

[@sechay9328]

You've really come into your own, man. I'm not that into booktube and people talking about how much they read in front of their vainglorious bookshelves. But you really are creating discussion and taking risks and I like it. Keep up the good work.

[@thesithempire1348]

Good job, Daniel! I think you made some sage points, particularly in the latter. Tastes in styles tend to go in and out. What was old is new again, and vice versa. For myself, as a reader and writer, I tend to stick to older styles because I like the language and the use to which some authors put it. There's a transportive quality to it that I think better suits stories about otherworlds. That said, there was no single standard of writing even back in the 1920s. If you compared Robert E. Howard to Clark Ashton Smith, you'd think you were comparing a very modern author to a very old one. Howard wrote flawed anti-heroes in a brisk prose style. Smith wrote doomed everymen in an ornate, poetic style. But even those two switched it up. Smith wrote some of the best early space opera with his Captain Volmar stories that read like a 1980s Star Wars EU novel, while Howard could get extremely poetic and philosophical. Tolkien is known for high-fantasy in an elegant, flowery style, but take a look at The Children of Hurin. It's like pre-Grimdark! Then, of course, there's Farmer Giles of Ham, which is as whimsical as anything Kenneth Graham ever wrote! So, ultimately, I think we're all just failing to see the nuances that existed within each generation, and even within each author, and making large assumptions based on what's currently in vogue. And because the next generation is built from the previous one, we see not only more of what previous authors did, but expansions of that. For example, Conan is an anti-hero, but a relatively likable one. Later authors would take that concept and run in various different directions with it, including casting all horrible characters. Enough of those and you have a subgenre, and a subsequent push-back against it. But perception can be problematic. The idea that older writers wrote sterling protagonists without flaws is mainly mythical. Children's fantasy, of course, tended in that direction, but even there it's not entirely true. Baum's Ozma goes from haughty and overconfident to woefully inept (vovatia.wordpress.com/2010/08/17/the-royal-skills-assessment-of-oz/). And as the protagonist of Voyage of the Dawn Treader Eustace Scrubb is almost a villain! Bilbo is loaded down with flaws until he learns to overcome them. E.Nesbit wrote very realistic children, warts and all. There's a lot to be said for characters who overcome their flaws to become heroes. Luke Skywalker and Aragorn of Arathorn are not any less three-dimensional than the anti-hero. The difference is that despite their flaws they choose the difficult road to do the right thing. I think the way critics demonize heroes says a LOT more about them than it does the writer. Nevertheless, I think the idea of the one-dimensional hero comes more from the pages of comic-books, particularly from 1954 to the 1980s, which with some exceptions, were not terribly-well written (thanks in no small part to the Comics Code Authority) until the British invasion (including and especially Alan Moore), Chris Claremont, and Frank Miller changed the playing field.

[@ZepFloyd25]

omg the Rivendell shot with little tiny Daniel is epic!!!

[@christinemusson9101]

Oh wow floating head

[@wolfegaming36]

8:23 - "We're not just all die-hard looking at Tolkien going 'I'M GONNA FOLLOW YOU, MAN!'" Wait, we're not? Well, crap.

[@Xeduful]

I recently read the Clark Ashton Smith's novels, i found the setting of Averoigne realy similar to The Witcher or modern dark fantasy... and was written in 1930! (Sorry for bad english)

[@cfosburg]

I like the dialog you are trying to stimulate in this video. It would be fascinating to see where are in this discussion in 5 yrs and then in 10 yrs.

[@journeymanic9605]

Notices Sanderson art on the thumbnail. "Huh wonder if this guy is a fan?" Spots "zinc" tattoo. Oh he's definitely a fan. Why Zinc and not copper?

[@JUNZZ3Y]

Hey! Can't find the answer so im asking 😆 what's the other book in the thumbnail? Looks dope. I recognize The Way of Kings but no the other one

[@Florfilm]

Beautiful video. Love the flying head. I also love what the flying head was saying.

[@icedempyre6029]

We should break up fantasy into ages. The Wheel of Time will turn and old writings styles will come again, as Daniel noted.

[@desdichado-007]

If you look at sales trends year over year for the sci-fi/fantasy genre (and yes, I realize that that's a little difficult, since the publishing world doesn't really distinguish them) you see them dropping on a clear trend for decades. That's the power of modern, cutting edge changes to fantasy.

[@tylercomstock1893]

How would you feel about adding a third category? In art, literature, and design, Modern refers to a specific style that was popular at a specific time in history. Contemporary is a better term to represent the trends that are popular now. To use the term Modern to refer to both Modern style and Contemporary style is confusing.

[@BlossomGirl566]

i love how at one point i had to find you as the images changed. it really made me laugh. amazing!

[@cianbroderick4145]

This is my personal distinction: if it feels like a d&d campaign, for me, it’s classical fantasy. Those metrics include anything you’d see in a very high fantasy series

[@hectorechevarria4360]

Great video Daniel! I think the path of the magical realism movement in latin america closely mirrors that of the fantasy genre. I always found it ironic growing up that a genre that blends fantasy elements in a real world setting was highly regarded academically while fantasy isn't!

[@Newfiecat]

Huh. Very good point, actually...

[@kevinvodochodsky]

70 pages let for The Eye of the World! Finishing today🙌🏻... FINALLY!!!

[@clymbr]

okay, this editing is *incredible* , like 9:09, stunning.

[@markuskarlsson9242]

Thank you for that intro!

[@helgenlane]

What a great video to watch at 3 am because I can't fall asleep. Thanks for amazing content.

[@Mhidraum]

I'm guessing this is similar to how I feel about fashion history (my field of study)... I see people just lump together decades, and even centuries, all the time because it's all "old timey". Well, they're kind of not wrong about the 1800s fashions being different from today's styles, but it's still way til much of an oversimplification. While a lot of elements in Women's dress changed from 1880 to today, men's formal clothing have stayed almost exactly the same. And that's just what we consider fashionable western clothing. Folk costume play by it's own bonkers set of rules. TLDR; Most things that look straight forward on first glance, isn't that simple once you start getting into it.

[@owltheherald4199]

I think you are correct. Great video! I’m actually very excited for the future of the genre. I wonder if someone right now is fleshing out a masterpiece during this intense period of anxiety and distancing.

[@drewfallon4839]

I don’t like classifying things by terms like modern. In the 70s, the books written in the 70s were modern and in the 1840s the books written the 1840s were modern. If we’re going to try and classify works within a genre by their time period, we should choose a term that isn’t constantly in flux

[@KalebChesnicFlutist]

Daniel, I love this. I’m currently watching this as a form of procrastinating doing my reading for my class this afternoon. I’m a doctoral candidate in music and I’m currently in a seminar called “Historiography of 18th and 19th century Music in the French and German speaking world.” I know, it’s a lot. We’ve been focusing recently on how terms like “Classical” have too many definitions to be useful any longer (especially in music). I liked that you brought this up here as well. Something else to consider is wether or not there is a teleological agenda to how literary historian are penning their histories of fantasy. Is music, this is a HUGE issue and is why many composers who were doing their own thing are left out of the history books because they don’t fit into the historical narrative. This is especially important because actual history isn’t a narrative at all, and it can’t be. That of course doesn’t stop folks from trying to present it as such. Anyway, I guess that’s all. I appreciate that you’re asking these questions and making people think. Sorry for the stream of consciousness rant, great video!

[@jiacheng23]

You are right that the nuance is needed when discussing fantasy; however, I don't think you really pinned down the elements of classic vs modern fantasy. We all know that grey or flawed characters is a part of how modern fantasy is described, but what about world building? Basically there were two types of fantasy settings in a classic era (80s and 90s) Protags crosses from our world to old England type medieval world. High Fantasy. Everyone is already in the fantasy world and it is also an old England type medieval world. Modern fantasy puts us in settings that are untethered from these settings, that takes us to strange new places. What about narrative structure? Rothfuss tells stories within stories and plays with a narrative style that is nonlinear. What about theme? There are many elements that could be addressed but maybe that's a conversation for another time.

[@Lurklen]

Shout out to Guy Gavriel Kay, modern genius with incredible capacity to capture the complexity of human emotion. I love him. Dude worked on the Silmarillion, and has never produced a bad book.

[@spiffybumbleteeth]

I'm afraid of prose becoming vital to "good" fantasy again. I found that simple prose and complex setting/plot/character is the style of book I've found sits best with me. It feels less like I'm reading a book for high school and more like I'm having fun that way.

[@Hwaigon]

Good job. You've just pulled a thorn from sb's side working on a YA Fantasy essay on the definition of classic vs modern. You've tackled it so damn well that if I had to write such an essay, I'd have to read three "classic" and three "modern" books to just get my own creative juices to flow not to plagiarize every single word you said :D

[@warcrafthumanlord]

This is an interesting topic but I think you got lost in the intro. The beginning of the video was set up to have a distinct separation of the modern and classic. Even though those definitions could change tomorrow I would still prefer to know what is considered classical as of this moment. You touched on this a little bit at the end, but I think it is not enough...

[@sethkeown5965]

Having just discovered your channel maybe a few days ago, i am really enjoying, and am impressed by, your content. As an aspiring author i am feeling more and more invigorated that my books will succeed. And as a bad reader, someone who should read more, i will make the changes to read more.

[@Arieoformation]

Great video. Just another bell curve to add to the mushy definition; someone who’s 18 may have a different definition from a 30 year old and both a different one to a 77 year old.

[@TmRnBn]

As a 60-year old, my bell-curve has flattened uncontrollably for a few years now. But my liver has expanded.

[@JoshKnoxChinnery]

Ok Daniel, there's your thesis! I look forward to the detailed analysis of what fantasy was like in every decade.

[@padfoot0422]

So are those everyday socks, or was this a special occasion?

[@jackc9175]

Dude this video is fantastic!! Thanks for taking the time to put this together. 🖤🤙🏻

[@squatyescaloonte9734]

I don't think I have ever been more entertained by a green screen in my life.

[@RUDEMusicUS]

Your videos are keeping me sane

[@subhakhan1900]

See, I feel like this expresses the amount of weird and crazy that I need in videos right now...why do ppl film the rest of their body anyway

[@ReyeS000Il]

Simply put: Classic Fantasy is knights, kings, wizards, dragons, gryphons, orcs, and elves. Modern Fantasy is: Technology, leaders, anime, magic.

[@willprotector]

I also think a huge shift in fantasy from the 1990s to today is less attention to minute detail and more development of internal character struggle. The focus shifted from the world-building to character development.

[@NoGreatImport]

I wish we took an approach like they do with comics, where there are "ages" that are used to describe specific periods and the common style of that period. Imagine bring able to say "Rothfuss writes his prose in a very silver age way, but he uses turn of the century characterization" and being completely understood.

[@jorgedasilva7665]

"We're not all diehard looking at Tolkien saying, 'I'm gonna follow you man.'" Why do I feel like you just chastised me? :(

[@tahamohiuddin7425]

Same. :(

[@CharlieThunder24]

as someone who is writing a fantasy fiction series and a historical fiction series, and whose favorite writers include Patrick O'Brian, Ken Follett, and Neil Gaiman as well as brandon Sanderson, your perspective is encouraging. I can't for the life of me write without using expressive, intricate language. I am Mr prose. but my characters are (I hope) nuanced and troubled, with most of their outlooks being inconsistent or at least flawed in some way.

[@mallios13]

Whenever you form a dichotomy, you have an issue. "Modern vs Classic" is inherently a flawed notion.

[@fanofbellcurves6462]

You had me at "but don't you worry my fans of bell curves, we're going to be talking about bell curves within bell curves soon so just, just buckle down"

[@jaiskoglind5762]

You should've done a Why You Should Read Terry Goodkind for April Fool's. Maybe next year?

[@mediaocrity4]

Watching through this guy's content because I'm sorta new to the channel. My favorite way to illustrate these points is comparing Lord of the Rings to Conan the Barbarian. The original Conan books feel contemporary and more modern despite being several decades older than Lord of the Rings. Reason being Conan was a pulp series cranked out in rapid succession and so it had a simpler more digestible style that coincidentally became the norm half a century later whereas Lord of the Rings was written in a very poetic language meant to invoke the Epic Poems of ancient times. Both Howard and Tolkien are classic authors but one of them wrote in a style that was already seen as classic at the time.