Do Modern Writers Remember How to Write Fantasy?

[@dukeofdenver]

I LOVE the point about character building from psychology vs symbolism. I've never heard it explained that elegantly before. You see that leak into popular writing advice these days. Archetypes have been ditched for "trauma". What is the characters foundational trauma? Or what is the lie the character believes? As a result, characters that are "boy scout" paragon of virtue types are often seen as "unrealistic" or "boring", and you get stuff like Zac Snyder's brooding Superman. As a writer myself, I've been wondering if archetypes are an outdated way of character building, and this video reminded me why they're still useful❤

[@dan_doug]

I’m glad it was useful! I also think about this kind of stuff all the time too. Archetypes I think is a good way to put it! I think you would also really like Josh from x box lives video. He goes into more depth about externalizing the internal in fantasy and he does a great job explaining it. Cheers man🍻

[@marocat4749]

And its not like , ok sdzories usually have both, there will be tragedy and trauma challenging, but that doesnt have to be "realistic" just dark, that can be anything. And superman is gonr through hella trauma that shaped him, his strengh really is coming out better despite it just wanting to help. And enough stories show he struggles with that and he is an idol, but he also has feelings and struggle to hold in. Which work very effective making him, a person. Ther are many hardworking issues with struggles because they feel too responsible. Thats superman. It also the best humans can be, henge superman, despite or because the human struggles and emotional?! Trauma does not have to break people, or be just depressing, and have no hope. Supermans planet, dead, he saw and heard a lot people die and experienced tragedy and still cares and igf he is angry or down, he bounces back and does the right thing. Thats the strengh. And its at least trauma and the hopeful paragon togethe making him human. And god knows we need well written hope of people struggling . And Yeah paragon superman is eithe uplifting comedy or drama .

[@Arnaere]

Love this type of material. Good cuts, good work. Look forward to more

[@christianvondruska8244]

​@@marocat4749 Yes but Superman is still primarily the paragon of hope (literally referred to as such in the comics), if anything he's hardly defined by 'trauma' at all. If anything, he's defined by his (no pun intended) down to earth upbringing, raised to be human, and becoming the best of us.

[@blugger]

"trauma" is just "character motivation, but in the sensationalized enough way that [insert author and/or publishing industry here] think will draw in customers."

[@ashalindrose6055]

I've been reading/studying a lot on writing, story structure, creating conflict, etc. I think we have a lot of people coming into positions of power to direct/helm adaptations without any appropriate life experience. They're being promoted without having been mentored properly and spent time in the trenches earning their stripes. Instead, they have these formulas to regurgitate without understanding the deeper context that underpins those formulas. They haven't been allowed to fail on smaller projects first. Failure is a great teacher, but when it happens on such a huge scale, it means that these people become scapegoats for studios who were too cheap/focused on profits to hire people with the appropriate experience.

[@kimyoonmisurnamefirst7061]

Unlike what people think, Tolkien's point of reference wasn't the 3-Act story structure which came out after he wrote The Hobbit (Syd Field), etc nor Joseph Campbell (1980's and I kinda find him sexist and media imperialistic). I don't particularly think he was using the Conflict narrative either which only was made a story driver in 1921. What I do think is that he had heavy influences from particularly the naturalism movement of the 19th century, which is why his descriptions of the countryside and maybe some influence on the idea of returning back to a former time, which was part of the Pre-Raphaelite movement, but he distanced himself from that quite a bit as he developed his world more. This explains why he wanted his mythos to still have a science basis and he also hated colonialism, which was why he was adamant it should be set in roughly the 1000-1200's Europe visually and with the foodways, which also explains why there is still wheat. In this way, Rings of Power is more accurate. Personally, I liked Rings of Power since it employed more than the Conflict narrative to build the story, which would be ahistorical from a true-to-author perspective and what the point of the early mythos was about... which mainly was Bilgungsroman-ish set up couched in an epic structure, which dates back to at least Gilgamesh, if not more. Conflict as a story driver is really late in history, so I'd reconsider since development as a story driver seems to be gaining popularity in the stories particularly from about 2010's.

[@ashalindrose6055]

@@kimyoonmisurnamefirst7061 Glad you liked Rings of Power. I haven't watched it. I wasn't referencing Tolkien or Rings of Power specifically, though I understand how you might infer that given the examples given in the video.

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

Studios too cheap/focused on profits - any executive should know where to invest and where to cut costs. Saving money in the process of preparation will usually raise costs in execution.

[@theimaginarium]

Your point about fantasy needing to have "dream logic" in order to land successfully. Excellent analysis.

[@dan_doug]

Thank you! 🧙‍♂️🤟🏼

[@papierowyszczur9234]

I enjoy dark fantasy. I enjoy realism and complexity in fantasy. But I also like when that includes themes, archetypes and unapologetic acts of good that don't require explanation or answer beyond "ing empathy".

[@andreiradu9655]

Oh boy you are gonna love re:zero if you are saying that. But speaking of dark fantasy, I think that is the one fantasy subtype that writers tend to get most wrong. Which I guess makes sense, because in a way it's a subversion of classic fantasy, and to subvert something effectively you need to understand well first.

[@kyleward3914]

One of the things I loved about the Hobbit that the movies absolutely fail to capture is that it wasn't a world-ending threat. It was a guy who wanted his stuff back. It was a quest to go get some treasure. Yes, there was a big battle at the end, though the protagonist was unconscious for most of it, but that wasn't really the point. The films tried too hard to tie it into Lord of the Rings and missed what made it a worthwhile story on its own.

[@dan_doug]

Never thought about this but you’re right

[@josephjarosch8739]

Tolkien was a capital-R Romantic at heart, a movement that leaned heavaly on symbolism over literalism, raw emotions over complex psychology, and vibes over sociologicaly rigorous worldbuilding. Science-fiction on the otherhand arose out of Modernism, which is in essence a deliberate rejjection and inversion of Romanticism. Meanwhile we now live under Postmodernism. Modern fantasy arose from Tolkien and his Romantic influences, but over the decades there has been significant cross-polination from these other two fields. Martin's emphasis on psychology and socioeconomics, Sanderson's fascination with magic systems, *whatever* the hell R Scott Bakker is doing with Second Apocalypse. This is neither good nor bad, but simply is. Ironically, in 2024 the true heir to Romanticism isn't fantasy at all, but the *horror* genre. Symbolism, dream logic, vibes over strict logical coherence. Clive Barker has more in common with Tolkien's style than any mainstream fantasy writer today does. My current WIP (or, at least, one of them, teeheehee) is an attempt to splice a epic fantasy (Lots of characters mingling in a large and intricate world, multiple races) with strong horror undercurrents.

[@tgillies101]

Companies need to realise that true art, the good stuff, comes from an artist. Just like in the Renaissance when a king wanted a beautiful piece of art done they didnt just buy they commissioned and were patrons and supported an artist and collaborated. It was more than throw money something, there had to be some support and relationship in it and flexibility on timeframes.

[@dan_doug]

Preach

[@Sarcasmses]

When I saw the video title, I thought it would be about books and publishing. I've noticed similar patterns in fantasy books. One of the most frustrating patterns I've seen in TV and books is the absence/removal of themes. In TV and movies, themes seem to be pushed aside in favor of political narratives. Star Wars gets a female protagonist - but we can't challenge her, or have her story say anything interesting about good or evil, because then she might be seen to struggle and we can't have that. I find fantasy books now have a problem where themes have been mostly replaced by one of two things: magic systems, or romance. Instead of stories about eternally interesting themes like "Power corrupts", we get stories about magic systems. The authors don't seem to be saying anything with their books, just describing people and events and the rules of magic systems. The latest trend is now "Romantasy" where romance is used in place of themes to tell a story. Instead of a story that has something to say about the tempting nature of evil, or the challenging nature of being good, or the tragedy of having to turn on your family and friends, we get stories about a protagonist whose main challenge is deciding which of the three gigachad love interests she wants to bang, usually all three. It's been the death of themes. Fantasy books, I find, are now very shallow and tend to just be describing what is happening in the moment on that pages rather than tying any events into an overall theme or argument. They don't even use symbols anymore. One of the strongest themes in LOTR, the Uni Sunt theme, that theme of wondering about generations who came before and whether we will measure up to their greatness, a theme strong in Theoden's story, is nowhere in modern fantasy. I often think of an interview with Tolkien. At the end of it he is asked by the interviewer: "Would you rather be remembered as someone who has said something, or someone who has made something?" And Tolkien thinks for a few seconds and gives his perfect reply: "I don't think you can distinguish. The 'made thing', unless it says something, won't be remembered." It's so correct too. We'll remember LOTR forever because it has something to say, and much to say. Rings of Power, these Star wars shows, most modern fantasy books - none of these will be remembered, because they have nothing to say.

[@dan_doug]

I feel this

[@donaldpratt2296]

Do you have some examples you’d like to highlight, demonstrating how this is overcoming fantasy? Your generalizations seem to be describing a selection of mass market publications, but we’ve always had some portion of all books be trash. I’m just interested in how you come to see this as a genre wide phenomenon.

[@Sarcasmses]

@@donaldpratt2296 Every fantasy book I read this year fit into this. All of the powder trilogy by Brian McClellan, The Will of the Many which was very popular and well received this year despite falling into every trope pit now known and being a themeless story despite its potential with Will magic to say something interesting about the madness of the mob, Mistborn which relies on magic and action to keep the reader's attention over all else (I haven't started the Stormlight Archive) and silly reveals like the Hero of Ages, all the Romantasy books I've unfortunately read like A Court of Thorns and Roses and I'm embarrassed to name others like A Queen of Thieves and Chaos, yes those are 2 different books by 2 different authors. Romantasy is a special offender; even the titles and cover art are the same. 94% of Romantasy books follow the same title formula: (Noun) of (Noun) and (Noun) or A (Noun) of (Noun) or (Noun) of the (Noun) or the rare (Verb) (Noun) the (Noun) and use the same cursive font for the title text, usually with flowers (especially a rose) or some other green plant around the title text. It may be because it's a rather new genre, or at least its popularity is new, so it needs more time to mature.

[@bummedmachinist7483]

Make this comment an article. I feel like this has been an unstated problem building within Fiction spaces for years and it's only received nominal recognition. I wish I had more time or know how, I'd write as many polemics as I could about the topic, lol

[@Iron-Bridge]

When people talk about artistes needing to suffer for their art, it means there has to be a foundation of meaningful life experience to bookend a work of art.

[@BabySharque]

I definitely felt you with that point you made on creators replacing symbolism with psychology and thus abandoning some of the soul of what fantasy is meant to be. I feel that it's important for your protagonist to be flawed. They need to grow somehow in order for their journey to be satisfying, so that makes sense. But in order to grow they also need characters around them to show them ideals - both of how to be, and how not to be. I think a lot of modern fantasy media loses a lot of identity in their attempts to achieve this weird gritty realism that just leaves everything feeling identical to everything else... just one big brown blob of prickly a-holes fighting over magic macguffins

[@STOTTINMAD]

I feel a lot of fantasy doesnt account for the sheer scale of these worlds and how difficult it may actually be to get from A to B. Especially travelling by carriage, animal or as part of an army.

[@dan_doug]

Ha! Good point. It’s like we transpose modern travel patterns into them without having airplanes in them lol

[@tgillies101]

"Its about 3 days ride to Belbladblahblah" when really considering terrain/conditions should of been 30.

[@nagillim7915]

@@tgillies101 - that's why the fantasy world i've been developing is early industrial instead of medieval. They have trains and airships and horseless carriages.

[@kimbonser2364]

That's an easy fix. I made the whole continent much smaller, scaled down the armies and ensured that no A to B travelling is anymore than 3 days ride from the palace. This also means a lot less description of architecture and landscapes; both of which I suck at. My 'baddies' live on a biggish island, but which is still quite small, and can easily invade the 'goodies' via a pleasant 3 hour sea cruise. All of my characters are appreciative of my efforts in ensuring that they do not have to spend a great deal of time in the saddle lugging cannons around.

[@Mermer-16]

Totally off the main topic, but I love your childhood story. I had/have the same issue with one of my eyes, and had coke-bottle glasses on top of that. I didn't handle my situation as awesomely as you did, though, I just stopped looking at people. But later in life, something possessed me to become an English teacher, which daily forces me to get over myself and look people in the eye. Best decision I ever made.

[@dan_doug]

God bless English teachers! 🙏🏼 I am glad you found your way through ❤️

[@Lowlander1412]

it's an interesting way to contextualize psychology and symbolism. not as two unrelated forces that share no connection at all, but as two diametrically opposed forces. between which a balance can be found.

[@aronelbrennan9252]

Thank you for giving me some much needed clarity. I'm currently in the process of writing a fantasy series about humans and dragons coexisting as equals in a shared society. Realism has always been my natural gravitational pull, and often I have to work very hard to remind myself that its ok to allow for areas of "suspension of disbelief." Having the real world exist in addition to my created one is rn my biggest conflict, and im caught between the decision of whether to let the "real world" part of the plot go, and just embrace having the original world built from the ground up. The latter would certainly help uncomplicate many things and allow for a deeper focus on the characters. Your words feel like they're inspiring me to tilt further in that direction despite all the revisions it would take. I deeply desire to revive role model type characters like young Skywalker and Aragorn in my own series. Cheers to hopefully making you proud someday 🐉🥂

[@dan_doug]

Good luck! I hope to read you one day 🙏🏼

[@MidoriKyun]

I'm just 2 minutes on the video, but wanted to say: when I started the video, I was not sure if I would really watch and enjoy everything, but then the memes started. I never pressed the subscribe button so fast. Great job, friend. 👍

[@dan_doug]

Thank you! Welcome aboard soldier 🫡

[@nedhunter4444]

17:33 Those runes, letter-by-letter, appear to say "uhatkhu tolkiin about", which I assume means "what'cha Tolkien about".

[@jim-bob3093]

Things like Luke looking down on Vaders copped off hand and then to his own robot hand. As a symbol of giving into the darkside and fear and how the same fear that lost him his hand, is the journey that ends with him becoming vader. (Cue the vision scene). Its just such a solid scene with no clunky dialogue or overtunes. I miss that shit!

[@papermr.magolorguy7957]

This is a really informative take! My protagonist I’m writing is a more optimistic interpretation of the hero archetype we might be missing! And I’m committing to a more good vs. evil system of morality in my fantasy novel project!

[@dan_doug]

Thank you! And good luck on your project!

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

Hollywood is trying to resist the urge to make a coffee shop AU of but it's letting it's demons win.

[@ValmeyjarWolf]

I appreciate your viewpoints. I honestly didn't expect this level of thought and detail from a video I'd originally dismissed as another clickbait rage video. I'm glad to be proven wrong.

[@ironclad4451]

I think the disconnect is that if these new counterfeit works, these “elevated” stories, bring in new fans… they are not fans of lord of the rings, they are not fans of Tolkien, they are not fans of Star Wars, they are fans of something newer, different, and removed. They are not carrying the story forward, they’re just the latest player in along game of telephone that will be unrecognizable for its origins, and that I will never support for any work. Leave the integrity of fiction alone I say. Like you said, even if a character is realistic, they should not feel like someone I can run into on the street today, not in fantasy and high sci fi. I hate the way modern creatives, these big corporate goons think they, with little life experience, and little education can do better than someone like Tolkien, their egos are rampant. It blinds them to the quality of the source material because they seek not to bring forward the universe of Tolkien’s and instead to make their own mark upon that universe….to make Tolkien’s world now their world.

[@irena4545]

IIRC, the first time I heard someone referring to Morfydd Clarke's character as Guyladriel, it wasn't because she was a warrior but because the character adopted the traits typically connected to toxic masculinity because for some reason, present-day writers confuse strength with aggression when writing "strong women". Also, Rings of Power don't fail because they introduce elements of realism into fantasy but because their writers are inept and don't invest into their job what it takes to write a good story: solid world building, characterisation, plot development... practically any aspect you can think about, it's not there. The plot lacks inner cohesion, events happen because writers will them, not because they organically stem from previous events, and characters act in a way the writers require, even though their behaviour is illogical and inconsistent. Númenor has no training grounds, Galadriel trains all, how many? five recruits? Sea snakes who had never been given an attention before suddenly decide justice? Characters die or heal in between the scenes? I don't have an issue with lore changes if it's for the benefit for the story, but logic and consistence is the hill I'm willing to die on, and I just don't see those there.

[@dan_doug]

Go off!

[@Aurora2097]

Exactly! The writers and showrunners lack an understanding of what makes a good story ,how to tell a story, how to write consistent characters... and they completely lack an understanding of the archaisms in Tolkiens writing, his catholic understanding of morale, good and evil, and also his romanticism, romantic love, romantic heroism. They are very superficial and naive dumbies... yet a whole lot of the audience doesn't notice and doesn't care, give them some Tolkien names, beautiful pictures, nice music and they're happy with total mediocracy.

[@irena4545]

​@@Aurora2097 A whole lot of people just want to be entertained and turn off their brains the moment they turn on the TV. What I don't understand is Amazon's attitude. Was the plan to produce such mindless "entertainment" all along? Or do they have no-one on their staff capable of assessing writing abilities? The company who has the means to hire the best of the best to produce something truly unique, and they end up with this, this embarrasing polished turd in a nice wrapping. I don't understand, I really don't.

[@Aurora2097]

@@irena4545 Who's gonna do quality control? Jennifer Salke doesn't know Tolkien.The two goons got their job by Nepotism, through JJ Abrams and seemingly none of the hired writers or directors dared to stand up and say: Guys, this doesn't work! Tom Shippey did andvit got him fired... Amazon paid a fortune for the IP and is now stuck with having to produce that trash to make it somehow pay off.... a tragedy of corporate incompetence and hierarchies.

[@fiktivhistoriker345]

Just 13 minutes in and i think that destroying Luke Skywalker was just the icing on the cake. Before that, they totally destroyed the victory of the rebellion by introducing the empire 2.0., just with a different name. Then they destroyed Han Solo, who was not a general any more but a hapless smuggler again. Then they showed us Han and Leia not as a loving couple for ever after, but divorced. And not as a role model for parents, because they gave their child away to this weird wizarding uncle. And i thought, Luke as a disillusioned hermit was at least something new. It may have been justified, because of the failure of the Jedi in the prequels. But showing him attacking his nephew was upsetting. In my head i think that this was Kylos version of the story. In "reality" it was the other way round, that Luke ignored the signs of evil until Kylo attacked him. They destroyed everything from the George Lucas movies right from the start.

[@dan_doug]

Esp palpatine returning in the last one 😫

[@Klahwoo_]

When you realize that Ao3 fanfic writers have better characterization than the pros in charge of billion-dollars IPs. 💀

[@gilgabro420]

even asoiaf/game of thrones has insurmountable and absolute evil as far as we know because the books aren't finished. Making the orcs sympathetic is like making the White Walkers sympathetic.

[@dan_doug]

I feel you!

[@FencingMessiah]

The white walkers could be in the books as they have a language and personalities

[@gilgabro420]

@@FencingMessiah true they have language and personality but they are a lot more alien like. and they don't have babies like rings of power. We will maybe see them mercy killed or at most invited in under a binding truce under guest right. There actions are ultimately still unforgivable and we will not have them painted in a sympathetic light.

[@FencingMessiah]

@@gilgabro420 idk but my pet theory is that they are a human extinction event like with the dinosaurs and they are neither good nor evil just time moving forward and a new species gaining prominence

[@Tinanja]

You should have a lot more subscribers! You have good thoughts and points, and use a lot of interesting references. I would totally watch more of these kind of videos from you!

[@dan_doug]

@Tinanja Thank you! Made my day 🤗

[@simplewrites]

I don't think it's just fantasy that has issues. Sci-fi also tends to suffer from this. People use these settings and simple paint jobs of their fictional world without giving it thought on how said world would actually work. Tolkien's world feels fantastical. Herbert's Dune and Warhammer 40k feel futuristic and grim. Everyone and everything acts according to their settings and you get the feeling it's an actual world. But now we get generic, bland characters that might as well just have been plucked from modern day Earth and put into whatever situation the writer wants them to be in. I'm hoping my novellas won't come out like that.

[@dan_doug]

Good luck on your writing journey!

[@simplewrites]

@@dan_doug thank you

[@flannerysnotebook]

It's worth noting that yes, Voldemort was misunderstood but that doesn't take away from the evil that he did, the evil that he fomented, nor the evil that he delighted in. He was a victim of an abusive mother who had him after drugging and SAing his father (who rightfully ran out on them when he was no longer being dosed up) and she was using a drug that has a side effect of damaging the soul of any offspring born from such a union. By every right, Voldemort was a victim who was doomed from the start... but he still had agency in spite of the corroded nature he inherited. He could choose to be better than his upbringing and perhaps he would have made the right choices if given the opportunity, but then he was put into a dormhouse full of literal Nazis which made for a very easy opportunity for him to be indoctrinated into becoming Magitler. He may have been a victim, but all that does is serve as a reason and not an excuse. The true issue is that the remake will likely either... 1. Ignore the circumstances of his birth altogether in order to make him even more blatantly evil. 2. Repaint his mother as part of a group that Joanne personally hates in an effort to further her own politics. (Not unrealistic given she's involved in the remake's production and will almost certainly place her thumb on the scale as it pertains to the writing.) 3. Pretend the reason IS a justification. (Least likely outcome honestly given Joanne's received some major backlash from people who her original story has fundamentally said are subhuman because of the circumstances of their birth. I think this is least likely because even though she's deranged, even she's got the awareness to understand that's just begging people to stop having anything to do with her.) But this is me writing way too much over what was an offhanded joke on your part.

[@dan_doug]

Totally understand your point here

[@mittenista]

It's kinda questionable to have a Nazi house in the first place, which is that is, no matter how anyone tries to whitewash it

[@flannerysnotebook]

@@dan_doug Oh thank Rau. I thought I overcooked.

[@jessewhite578]

Really great video, I enjoyed the breakdown and agree with your points. I really hope that crowd funded media can take a stronger hold on the general populous. Corporate interests are really killing creativity.

[@dan_doug]

Thank you! 🙌

[@JW-dp4we]

What pissed me off most about ST Luke was that, while I could totally see TESB Luke pulling his lightsaber on Kylo, ROTJ Luke and beyond absolutely would never do that. They pretty much retconned his character development and replaced it with the vision of new filmmakers, yet even then they couldn’t be bothered to actually show such regression in real-time, just through half-assed flashbacks.

[@gonaye1]

10:51 not sure why but the moment I heard this story I instantly knew I was going to subscribe

[@dan_doug]

Welcome aboard 🤟🏼

[@InterdimensionalZeitGeist]

as an aspiring writer, I do wonder how much moolah the western buisness suits are neglecting when they prefer billion dollar spectacles compared to, spectacles within animation. its why I would like my own fantasy novel to be adapted into an animated series, because we want to believe in another world right? why don't we trust in the artistic vision of creatives who want to pay real......attention? (for lack of a better term) to their work. that way artistic vision can never be sacrificed, the audience likes it, the money will DEFINATELY be cheaper....its such a good idea to me. it takes time, sure, but not as much time as making spending billions of dollars for sets of a lackluster story.

[@likliksnek]

I'm wondering if this symbolism vs. psychology hits different on screen than in books. I find myself enjoying books more if the "evil" has a motivation and is relatable, opposed to being evil for the sake of evil. I am no Tolkien expert but aren't orcs tortured elves? This envokes a certain pity in me for them and makes them relatable in the way that harsh circumstances can bring out the worst in people. I think there always have been subtle relatable motivations/backgrounds to evil in fantasy that are rooted in psychology. It just seems that, today, writers don't trust the reader/watcher to pick up on those nuances of humanity in even the darkest of characters, so they put in some on-the-nose clues like that orc baby. But this ruins the magic of developing the sympathy ourselves.

[@dan_doug]

I need to noodle on this!

[@dan_doug]

My first thought is that there is a difference in my mind between sympathetic and relatable that I did not really spell out in my video. Relatable to me means you can see yourself in the character. Sympathetic means you can understand them from the outside

[@likliksnek]

​@@dan_doug Good point, I agree with you there. And sympathy might even be more powerful, as it makes the reader think/feel out of their own little box. In both cases I think it's important to keep the clues subtle to give the reader the chance to discover the emotional connection for themself. If it feels too blunt (like orc babies) it feels forced and patronizing, and doesn't give the emotional payoff.

[@kalinaralov9919]

you're right on the spot. i remember thinking just the same with my own tiny brain once - "this stuff is real" :) cheers!

[@dan_doug]

@kalinaralov9919 I appreciate you! It was a big moment for my tiny brain and I’m sure it was for yours too 🫶

[@TheAdarkerglow]

There is a way to make the Luke/Kylo thing work. But Kylo needs to be actually irredeemable. The failure of Luke in the Last Jedi would have to be that he's too willing to see kindness and goodness and can't end a threat, a real threat, before it begins. Kylo goes on to be every bit as evil as Vader or Palpatine, without remorse, and Rey has to do what Luke couldn't and kill him. But Disney is cowardly.

[@dan_doug]

I think it would have been super interesting if Luke refused to see the bad in Kylo too. I think it would have lined up better w/ his character.

[@irinaiturri]

I really thought that Kylo Ren massacred the other padawans and that made Luke Skywalker grief so hard that became a hermit. But Disney made the complete opposite =/

[@ErinSmith-jo8td]

This was a great video outlining what has been upsetting me about modern adaptations.

[@dan_doug]

I’m glad I’m not alone!

[@shardator]

I had a very similar moment with a bully with a very similar result. As a kid. As an adult, I'm handling bullies way worse unfortunately.

[@nagillim7915]

I'm glad you can still enjoy the original Star Wars movies. I haven't been able to watch them since the sequel trilogy.

[@dan_doug]

Ha! Yes I still watch the originals. They’ve sunken all the way into my dna

[@henryglennon3864]

Great video! Also good to see you shout out the "Josh from XBox Live" video. Another video I'm glad I clicked on.

[@dan_doug]

Thank you! And yes, I love Josh. He’s got great stuff

[@technologistrevolution]

These videos are interesting because I agree with a lot of the premise but not the entirety of the conclusion I think. Tolkien grappled quite a bit with the nature of the orcs and to balance what he had written against his own philosophies of redemption. I dislike what Amazon did because they do not have *nearly* the philosophical depth of Tolkien and a .9823745 second scene of an orc baby does nothing to honor or reflect Tolkien's conflict and certainly doesn't conclude it. Similarly I would say the elves are actually deeply flawed (I'm looking YOU Fëanor Kinslayer) so they are not aspirational but Tolkien excelled at writing Otherness so they are flawed in the way Odin is flawed or Hades is flawed. Flawed gods from an age when gods *could* be flawed. I think your video hits the mark closer than the one on "mythology vs. elevation" since between Tolkien's actual philosophy and writers like Gene Wolfe, Mervyn Peake, and other "Old Fantasy" writers it doesn't make sense to contrast them as "mythological" vs. "elevated" if "elevation" is described as moral nuance because I don't think that is the actual contrast. I think it is less a philosophical matter (if anything a lot of these old stories have deeper philosophies and greater nuance) and more that modern Fantasy lacks mystery and symbolism that is necessary for a work to actually BE Fantasy. A dragon in Fantasy may be a incomprehensible creature of old, a symbol of greed, or a weapon of war but the one thing that doesn't matter is its biology. Meanwhile Modern Fantasy wants you know that dragons are warm-blooded and have hollow bones but made of substance stronger than calcium and etc. etc. It will explain these irrelevant details to death to make sure you know how Grounded and Real it is and forgets entirely the dragon's *narrative purpose*. I think you see this in GRRM's writing where he wrote a 700ft wall because it is, as something in Fantasy, more a symbol of a wall than the physical thing. Its height is exaggerated. It becomes an image. That this is absurd and non-useful in actuality doesn't matter because that isn't it's narrative purpose. It's an invocation. GRRM's worst mistake imho was trying to walk it back and say he was mistaken and that 700ft. wall doesn't fit into his "very grounded and realistic" story. Although, he seems to waver depending on if people are praising his realism (in which case he leans into it and his *historicity*) or detracting it (in which case he was never actually writing realism he was always writing inspired by historical *fiction*). Overall, George doesn't seem like he knows if he's embarrassed to be a Fantasy writer or not. Similarly, Amazon wants you to know where Gandalf got his staff because god forbid a single thing simply *is* right down to his fancy wizard stick. They want you to know orcs have babies (because they "have to" come from somewhere, it's realistic) but they won't bother with what that means for the *narrative purpose* of orcs. Everything is explained but none of it has a point.

[@genericusername9299]

Very good video Im not sure if this could fit with the topic of Bethesda games and the Elder Scrolls games

[@dan_doug]

Thank you!

[@danletko]

I too am a survivor of the Star Wars to Lord of the Rings pipeline

[@dan_doug]

Fellow traveler

[@lossietesamurai]

Muchas gracias por tu opinion.

[@dan_doug]

Thank you!

[@kimbonser2364]

That was excellent, really. I particularly enjoy part 3. Totally Agree with your view of Rings of Power writer's and the orc''s heart-warming display of paternalistic love. That scene made me laugh. I thought surely they were having a bit of fun. But they weren't, I know. Fantasy isn't about how to be any ordinary pathetic human being. It's about being a hero as you explained so well with your analysis of the original Star Wars movies. You the hit nail on the head with LOTR vs Rings of Power and the injection of 'realism': "I don't want to relate to them. I want to aspire to them" and how psychology over symbolism means "the characters are brought to us. We don't have to reach for them."

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Most fantasy just feels like "their take" on something that already exists. Just "their take" on politics, of a magic system, of RPG archetypes, of their 30 different elf subraces, and meandering adventures and quests. Even thought they are original worlds and works, most fantasy feels like mediocre fan fiction. There are no strong themes, stuff just happens. And sometimes it's fine... for a part of the book. Like for one particular character for one particular story arc. But it feels like there is either too much nonsense plot or not enough of it. En example: I recently read "The Blade Itself" by Joe Abercombie, my first of his. 4,21/5 on GoodReads, raging reviews. Yet... stuff just happens? There is maybe a vague theme and message there kinda sorta that I still don't really know what if was...? I enjoyed the barbarian the most, the grumpy inquisitor who's a horrible bastard was cool too. But... 90% of the time it barely felt like a fantasy book. It was vague swords clashing and some magic. But nothing about it was really fantastical. Not even that "grimdark". People swear, there's some violence... That's it. It's not particularly depressing or mature or apathetic or cynical or anything you'd expect from grimdark. I think people just label it as such when they read about the POV character killing someone mercilessly or one indirect line of a hanged child. It really felt meandering and unable to pinpoint what it wanted to do or say. It's just... fan fiction in Abercombie's homebrew pseudo-medieval world. There is no point. And while fantasy (and fiction overall) is female dominated right now, blessing us with piles of faux-feminist theory with vague dragons, convoluted magic, and vampire white boy twinks pushing consent, I don't like the opposite either which was Abercombie seemingly only being able to describe any female in the entire book as "pretty" and barely nothing else. Yes, you got the angry revenge hungry grumpy lady who avoids the "male gaze", but it's just something reductive that I noticed every time and I began to loathe, seeing it again and again. And this was supposed to be a "classic". One of the best "grimdark" "gritty" "fantasy". All of those are in quotes as it barely reaches for any of them. It felt like a book for teenage boys. Which I've grown out of, unfortunately. And this book came out in 2006... Things are NOT better now.

[@andreiradu9655]

In the same way it's easier to just remake a video game or a movie, it's easier to just write 'fanfiction' about worlds and stories that already exist, and it seems to be profitable for these companies. It's generally good practice for novice writers and let's them get more confident in handling a bigger setting. But if you want a good story you have to make it.

[@StarlasAiko]

I still only acknowlegde the original trilogy and accept that there is a prequel fanfic. There is no movie version of a sequel, only a great series of books that Disney decided to throw in the trash the very moment they bought the brand name.

[@soothsayer1964]

"Washed up bum" - seems to be a thing with Disney. Same situation with Obi-Wan and Indiana Jones.

[@dan_doug]

Yeah I’m also noticing that pattern it’s a trope at this point

[@myself2noone]

Naa, that's a common thing when hero's get older in fiction. That's more or less how king Arthur's story went. There was a whole subplot about it in The Wheel of Time books, with The Farstrider guy. Forgot his full name. Logan did it, into the Spider-vers did it. You really need to read more if you think this is a Disney thing. This is a very tride and true fantasy trope. It's bizarre to see people like you who don't seem to notice this call out Luke for being some sort of an aberration. When I looked at it I thought "oh, they're doing the King Arthur thing." You know that's like not the end of their story, right? It's wierd that you fixate on were a character started but ignore how they were changed thoughtout the film. I image Lord Of The Rings is quite boring if Frodo never leaves the shire.

[@soothsayer1964]

@@myself2noone Where did I say it was exclusively Disney doing this????

[@sweetday0-0]

It's odd to me how I've become sceptical of the quality of anything with big money behind it, If a Netflix or Disney make something I am sceptical that they made anything of it because I don't think they care It's become odd how when something has a high pricetag on it I distrust it's quality. I'm far more far more likely to give my time to something indie or self published.

[@dan_doug]

I think big biz used to be better at outsourcing grassroots talent

[@sweetday0-0]

@@dan_doug I'm honestly happy Grass-roots talent is getting better avenues to reach people and collaborating without the big biz, cutting out the middle men and all.

[@sovobor7681]

I think, that problem with modern fantasy is lack of morals. In Lords of the RIngs main quest is stop Sauron, dark lord, twister of life and puppet master of souls. Star Wars prequels are story about rise of tyrany and original trilogy is warning to not became, what you fight against. Even in the Witcher is in fact story abot power love and friendship.

[@dan_doug]

I can see where you’re coming from. Do you think there are no morals in these new versions or different morals?

[@christianvondruska8244]

​​@@dan_doug Absolutely, I think the MCU is the perfect example where almost none of the heroes are actually Heroic. Like, when's the last time you saw any of these heroes do something kind? I'm not talking about beating up a supervillain who wants to blow up the universe, I'm talking about just helping people, the only one that really comes to mind is Spider-Man because he's a street level hero. More often than not though we get shows like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, where the main characters defend a mass murdering super terrorist from a guy just doing his job and trying to be a decent hero. Or Titans, where Robin says "fuck Batman." Oh, or the Acolyte, where the main character undergoes a "positive corruption arc" (the director's own words btw). So yes, these modern writers do indeed lack a strong moral foundation

[@christianvondruska8244]

​@@dan_doug Part of it is definitely narcissism, it's why you'll see so many articles about ungrateful fans, it's that these authors "know better" than their audiences. If you have a problem with a piece of media then it's YOUR fault. It's definitely not that these "creatives" are incompetent no, it's that your standards are "impossibly high" (in other words it's that you won't eat the slop). Part of this is that the writers take the saying "Write what you know" too literally, and turn the media they write into their own personal trauma dump/therapy sessions

[@idongesitusen5764]

During the lockdowns I streamed most of Star TrekTOS), including the first six films & am enjoying TNG. Hearing things like this about Star Wars is why: If “The Jedi’s legacy is failure”, that shows me those behind the scenes don’t care about the series ‘ core themes. If they don’t care, I won’t either.

[@kiwitealc5353]

I hadn't heard the stuff about Luke skywalker's character in the last jedi explained so clearly before, that was really interesting and well told. Great video---I follow on the 'gram, but I'm trying to quit most social media so if I hadn't seen that you had a youtube channel, I probably would have never seen you again! I've seen a lot of rings of power commentary so I thought I'd heard it all, but you make some great points and bring up some cool ideas that are new to me! I won't bore you with a dissertation on all the things I hated about ROP, but it's interesting to me that even among people who are critical of the show, what we like and dislike don't always agree. I too am hopeful for a season three. Maybe it will improve, but if it doesn't (and I don't really expect it to) I genuinely enjoy ripping it apart. Maybe somethings wrong with me, maybe I'm a born hater, who knows. Nice video 👍

[@dan_doug]

Ha! Thank you so much for watching and I absolutely understand dipping out of social media. Good on you. As far as not liking things, we live in an “auto-bless” culture where it’s just sort of assumed you have to like everything or you’re a “hater.” I think as long as you have good reasons it’s okay not to like something. We all have our own standards. There’s nothing wrong with not liking something! Good luck on your journey! I will keep regularly posting on KZbin still be seeing you again soon :)

[@bummedmachinist7483]

It's bad psychology too; usually disconnected from the story's themes. Because these writers are focused on being "realistic" they have lost sight of whether their definition of realism is even accurate. We are left with psychologically driven characters whose psychologies are only tangentially connected to other themes in the story or don't interact or grow within the story's own thematic logic. Needless to say, many of these writers don't even seem to recognize the importance of theme or symbolism. Or even the fact that intentionally laid out themes and symbolism can make the story MORE realistic because life works on its own internal logic- fantasy should too. Fantasy's internal logic can just be fantastical, but it should still work without sowing discord with the other aspects of the fantasy (atmospheric, symbolic, and thematic) One should realize after hearing enough anecdotes that it's possible to pull consistent themes from people's own real life stories. That is how we GROUND stories! The Game of thrones writers said themes are for 8th grade book reports. Look at how that turned out for them when the final seasons buck any consistency or overarching logic for favor of convenience and shock value. TLDR: *THEME, SYMBOLISM, ATMOSPHERE; THESE WRITING CONVENTIONS ARE REALISTIC WRITING CONVENTIONS.*

[@09cutie0pie]

Will you make more videos like this?

[@dan_doug]

Yes working on one now

[@victorkowalski9737]

You just got a subscriber, sir.

[@dan_doug]

🫶🫶🫶

[@Bookspine5]

Aww crap, I forgot Harry Potter will be adapted to HBO ...

[@NelsonStJames]

A cynical culture that has stopped believing in heroes needs fictional heroes more than ever. I still consider myself a fan, but at present I’m happier devolving back into a fan who likes what they like in private. If I find others who share my passions, that’s fantastic, but I don’t expect to find them any longer in fandom proper. I think we’re going to need new fans to new properties, but don’t expect it from the industry, but from independents and the underground, and once the current industry has bastardized and wrung all they can out of the old stories, it’ll be these new creators that will come along and adapt those old stories and characters for a new generation the way they were meant to be.

[@donaldpratt2296]

I’ve always appreciated having any unreasonable love I might have for the concept of “Star Wars” murdered in the early 00s by three steaming piles of shit labeled as “movies.” It lets me take each of these kid movies as they come and not try to assign any great meaning to them.

[@jkseraphim4]

Only watched the Original Star Wars(New Hope) and after learning about the original after the prequels and what has happened with the sequel trilogy. I felt that people need to be careful what they wish for. Because it might not turn out the way you want it. Also, if the original had a good ending series, it's best to leave it. Put it to rest and explore something new, and when you don't find it, the original story is still there. Or better create your own from the existing story. That is why I loved fan fiction.

[@PvtSchlock]

You're saying that Galadriel's power can be projected in any way? No, she's immensely powerful in a given fashion and its codified in a thing called canon. My disagreement is not necessarily counter-signaling however and I hope that distinction is understandable. It is expensive fan fiction that is utter shit.

[@dan_doug]

I understand your point! I wouldn’t say she can project her power in any way-I just thought there were other areas that more directly contradicted her character in the Silmarillion

[@AndrewHalliwell]

Phantom menace killed it for me. Still not seen last Jedi.

[@dan_doug]

Phantom menace was wild

[@AndrewHalliwell]

@@dan_doug Boring as hell, more like. They even repeated the same chase sequences 4 times.

[@trinstonmichaels7062]

I do think that it is a ego trip most of these writers think that they are making movies that they are superior to the book writers which us most fantasy writers.

[@anothenymously7054]

The biggest problem with fantasy and realism is that they naturally oppose eachother. and for tolkein his stories are built mainly on fantasy or maybe it's realism with fantasy in the background with the way people might have talked back then but now we see it as fantasy because the realism is unrelateable to the modern experience. It is costly to make a fantastic story be realistic if you don't understand what's real and consistent

[@dan_doug]

I like your thoughts here

[@fornamnefternamn1532]

36:28 I honestly don't see the problem. Unless you regard the prequels in the same way. I guess you do, even though it isn't cool to hate them anymore. But what I love about Star wars is the critique of our society. That's why I love LotR too! Tolkien's hate of deforestation isn't subtle. It's a real world problem that might cost us our society in the end. But sure, manifestations and so on. But what I lack is the grey. Because how can you fight your Sauron if you never get to question if what you think is the hobbit, really is Sauron? Putin will never watch LotR and think that he could be like Sauron. Where are the stories that could make him question himself, and why don't we criticise Hollywood for not telling that? And also, why not handle Hollywood like the arms dealers of The last Jedi? I.e. if we buy the good stuff, they still get payed even though they also produce the bad stuff. I agree to the source of the stories. I write myself and cannot even afford food due to my situation. But they will never stop produce filth as long as we pay for it. That goes for everything within capitalism.

[@Bookspine5]

Lol. Jake Skywalker.

[@BenjaminOwenSlattery]

I’m working on it

[@doey1702]

I'd argue against your assessment of the orc baby, but only slightly. I think while it leans closer to realism, it ultimately reinforces the symbolism of Tolkien. Tolkien was aware of the problems with the potential orc genocide - and as such he had various interpretations of the orcs, some where they were essentially mindless machines, others where they had more autonomy. Obviously within the books, the orcs have conversations, emotions, opinions - they are fundamentally conscious. As a Catholic, Tolkien seemed to struggle with the idea that these thinking creatures wouldn't have a soul, and couldn't have redemption - and he never seemed to find a true solution to this. (Christopher Tolkien leans towards the orcs as corrupted elves, and as such, so do the LoTR films, and RoP). There's plenty of issue with RoP, but their use of the orcs felt like a way of bridging the gap: these are creatures that do not have inherent evil, and Adar represents (and vocalises) that fact. I don't think it undoes orcs in the main trilogy, since this interpretation of the orcs' story is designed as a tragedy: their fundamental flaws (who they trust, their predisposition to violence and conquest, their fear) lead them to killing the one man, Adar, that sees them as living, moral creatures, turning instead back to Sauron, who we know will forge the Ring and dominate. The story ends, presumably, with the orcs facing complete domination, a sort of spiritual death, that allows them to fulfil the role they have within the main trilogy - the evil cannon fodder for our heroes to battle against. It's one of the places where this adaptation of the story is very effective - it does more than Tolkien did. Which is what an adaptation should do - it should be in conversation with a work, since it cannot, and should not, replace the original text. I'd accept the argument that it's not necessarily THE angle that Tolkien would have taken, but I think it still wrestles with the same themes of good and evil, and is a worthy exploration of the morality of Middle Earth. It also shows us a great depiction of Sauron as the Deceiver that he is, which I think does a lot for that character. The execution could have been better, but I appreciate the themes they were going for, at least in that instance.

[@finaldevil120]

What’s the name of the song at the end of the video?

[@kobecornelison937]

Commenting for engagement

[@dan_doug]

Thanks bro 👊🏼

[@dontdoit6986]

Your title is a bit misleading. It should be “modern adaptions of classic fantasy works”. Modern Fantasy, itself, as a literary genre, is undergoing a fantastic renaissance, in no small thanks to Robert Jordan and George RR Martin. Check out authors like Brandon Sanderson, Joe Abercrombie, Steven Erikson, Scott Lynch, Glenn Cook, Mark Lawrence, Fonda Lee, Brian McClellan, Matt Dinniman, VE Schwabb, James Islington, RF Kuang, John Gwynne…

[@dan_doug]

I consider writing to be a broad term encompassing more than literature but I’ve read many of the authors you cite and enjoy them

[@shardator]

Tolkien simply wrote a mythical story, which REQUIRES good vs bad dichotomy. Any gray in this ruins a mythical story. Mythos was there to motivate, to give hope, not to educate. That is why the feeling of condescending storytelling in modern (ew) adaptations.

[@StefánH.Gunnarsson]

I almost completely stopped reading new books because they are so badly written, filled with spelling errors, even when made by a publisher. I've seen self-published books where authors put in more effort to have a clean manuscrip than publishers.

[@briandhackney]

hit the algorithm a bit. Well done.

[@dan_doug]

Thanks boss!

[@pureevil9496]

Maybe Rian Johnson is an accidental hero for killing Disney's Star Wars money machine

[@dan_doug]

Hahah! Never thought of it that way

[@psal8715]

i care less about Rings of Power then i do The Last Jedi despite being a much bigger Lord of the Rings fan. I can ignore RoP as its a non canon adaptation so really matters little in the grand scheme of things but with TLJ we have to accept this is the version of Luke we have now which just takes away from all the movies. My favorite book series remands unchanged and unaffected and i go back year to year reading LotR, the Hobbit and the first age trilogy but i cant bring my self to watch the original trilogy of star wars now.

[@mentkansleyunitedstatesgov6364]

Ive been reading a lot of Robert E hpward, Michael Moorcock and David Gemmel recently and if it wasnt for my lack of skill i would probbaly write a book in that style I just dont enjoy contemporary writing the whole "write what you know" thing just doesnt vibe with me either 😂

[@dan_doug]

Yeah write what you know does seem like very modern advice

[@hope2dust]

You are giving these writers WAY too much credit. This is hubris. Plain and simple. Writers today (and showrunners for that matter) want to take beloved properties and put their names on it. That's all it is. Rather than honoring the original work, they want to make it theirs. It's not about realism. It's not about pandering to a "modern audience." It's not about politics or agendas or any if that. It's people who think they can do it better than the authors who gave us the greatest tales ever told. It's average gen z/millennials believing they can contend with once-in-a-generation minds, when in reality, these folks all came from fan fiction backgrounds and couldn't tell a compelling or nuanced original story because they've always piggybacked off the work of others. There, I said it.

[@dan_doug]

I don’t necessarily disagree but the point of this video was analyzing the ways in which the quality is lower, not simply to call it low quality but to actually analyze they techniques they used and make sense of it as a method

[@hope2dust]

​@@dan_doug right, and for the duration of the video, I was like why tho?? Why are you trying to deconstruct bad writing? You were musing over something that didn't need to be mused over. I was providing the actual topic you should be addressing. I've been recommended more and more of these pseudo-intellectual videos trying to force meaning where there is none. Can we stop this and call a spade a spade? Your video could've been summed up in a single sentence. Fantasy has become more grounded in realism over time because people have grown more cynical/jaded in general, and we would rather examine the psychological struggles of people put in heroing scenarios than consume mythical (and often basic) tales of absolute good vs absolute evil. You didn't need to spend nearly an hour exploring that topic, or using horrible examples on top of it. If you were going to do this topic justice, you'd have compared LotR not to Rings of Power, but to ASoIaF. One is a great example of the whimsy mythical storytelling, and the other is a foundational example of the grittier realism in fantasy. The Rings of Power is just slop. Star Wars is slop. The art of storytelling and bastardization of it by modern writers is a much more valuable topic to examine based on the examples you provided. But don't worry, I clicked that "do not recommend" button on your channel so you won't have to engage with me moving forward, and I won't have to keep revisiting this. Please do better, and good day, sir.

[@dan_doug]

Thank you for your comments to help engagement 😂

[@hope2dust]

@@dan_doug lulz, while on the subject, you could be more engaging and excited about what you're talking about. It's clear you are a very dry person. Your tone is painfully one-note and it comes across as you aren't interested in the topic of your own video essay. Maybe ham up the sarcasm? Try to be a tad bit more humorous? Just something to think about. It would probably help your engagement if you bring a bit more personality to your videos. Anyway, best of luck. Wish you all the success.

[@dan_doug]

No way man! You’ve got the wrong idea. Better to be yourself and connect with people who connect with you naturally. I won’t change who I am. Clearly you didn’t connect w/ me and that’s okay.

[@leonacont6150]

Generic comment for the algorithm.

[@dan_doug]

🫶🫶🫶

[@wonderscall6486]

I don't acknowledge the new Star Wars as cannon.I think of it more like a really bad fan fiction that cost a ridiculous amount of money

[@dopytheangel]

Books today are also terrible. No depth.

[@dan_doug]

Some have depth! Unfortunately the marketing dollars do not typically follow these 😂😭

[@briandhackney]

I saw that Josh from Xboxlive video

[@dan_doug]

He’s honestly great I love his stuff

[@briandhackney]

@dan_doug he has great takes on things, very informative

[@spiritualanarchist8162]

Too be fair...Many young ideologic people end up cynical , grumpy & delusional ;)

[@duckdialectics8810]

Short answer, no, with very few exceptions, they don't

[@harmider2430]

Was that not clear to everybody after the first trailer who Sauron is? You you got it right. Rings of Power is for Managers to teach them how to behave, not for kids or entertainment. no please stop defending the bad acting of the new version of Galadriel, you do not know what you are talking about here.

[@TheRedDirtDownload]

Love the fantasy world but the romantasy world is becoming a bit much now.

[@kimyoonmisurnamefirst7061]

Star Wars is Space Opera which is technically Science Fiction. So Kinda confused here... SF and F are different. I'm guessing you didn't read the Silmarillion? They were made relatable in that book because he wrote it later in his life after WWII. Every hero had a huge flaw in that book. You keep referencing Lord of the Rings without referencing Silmarillion. Seems like you didn't read the source material. A lot of the people were hugely flawed in that work. I would like to point out that Tolkien at the end of his life was trying to ground his world of Middle Earth more heavily in Science which is why the Tolkien estate HATED Peter Jackson's interpretation which heavily used things like Art Deco and Art Nouveau which, truly from the world building that Tolkien did would have irked him heavily. Tolkien was adamant that his world building was pre-colonization, which means the visuals, the dirty atmosphere, etc is more accurate in Rings of Power (11th century) than it is in the Jackson films (He tries for Pre-Raphaelite? 19th century, which is NOT what Tolkien was aiming for). He spends an inordinate amount of time about this in his food systems, and later in life tried desperately to ground Middle Earth in more realism. Invoking Tolkien the way you are kinda contradicts the breath of his work. I kinda think Christopher Tolkien is a better expert on his father and what his father envisioned than Peter Jackson and if the estate objected to Peter Jackson, then helped with Rings of Power, maybe reconsider a little? Tolkien even went into detail later in his life about Orcs and trying to flesh them out. And the heroes are supposed to be complicated, so Aragorn being a murderous G*nocider, given the larger lore and some of the weirdness Tolkien put in, would fit with the complications aspect. Because Tolkien did not write morally straight stories where the hero was everything and grand and great. He wrote them so they were mixed, so even the best of them was also not quite the hero you imagine them to be. If you read the lineage on Aragorn, they becomes very apparent quickly. Yes, in the beginning of Tolkien's work, he was more into the myth, especially as a kid, but when you read his later work, you can see more complex building up of the world of Middle Earth and a man struggling to reconcile magic with science so that the magic can be foregrounded, while the science is just there in the background, which is why he was trying to make the map round and find a way to do that, but unfortunately died before he could achieve it. And he *was* trying to find ways to humanize the orcs, especially in light of WWII because getting complements from literal N--- does something to your psyche and you do want to move away from faceless characters who are all purely bad.

[@maximilionsteiner2778]

Luke became Obi Wan, not that obtuse, not very well done either mind but hardly inexplicable.

[@Darodrian]

first 😎

[@dan_doug]

🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶

[@Darodrian]

​@@dan_doug Great video, man! I totally agree with your opinions. I wish the writers could watch analyses like this because you speak as a true fan-someone who really gets it. The series is kind of butchering a lot of the original material, but honestly, if it even slightly touches on The Silmarillion lore, I'm in. That said, I can’t help but laugh at some of the decisions-like when they gave the Stranger his name as "Grand Elf." I facepalmed so hard, I think I left a mark on my forehead. Here's hoping season 3 gets better!

[@dan_doug]

@Darodrian appreciate you bro! I definitely love LOTR a lot. Whether or not the creators see any videos of mine, I’m not sure! I’m sure it’s difficult making a series with such high expectations tied to it. But still! I want it to be the best it can be and I also have hopes for he future!

[@calebsmith6490]

Dude… I need more analysis like this of the Wild Robot for example 🤩

[@dan_doug]

Oh that’s a good idea for a video!

[@oriongear2499]

AI can write Star Wars better than Disney.

[@myself2noone]

I'm convinced anyone who doesn't like Luke's change in The Last Jedi just doesn't read that much fantasy. I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but even I thought this was a pretty common trope. If Into The Spider-Vers can do this with Peter Parker, and Logan can do it with Wolverine, then it doesn't seem weird to do it with Luke in Star Wars. You can quibble about it's execution. Maybe it didn't do this trope well, but the idea isn't some huge betrayal of the character or genre or anything. To say otherwise is just ignorance. Whatever have you're upvotes.

[@lethaldream50]

~

[@Nefariousbig]

I'm convinced that people who think Luke's moment with Kylo and the fallout from it aren't in line with his character somehow missed, forgot, or simply did not grasp that there are 3 perspectives shown of the event. It is absolutely in Luke's character to, when faced with a force premonition/vision of what Kylo was capable of (which was killing literal trillions), succumb to an instinct to protect the galaxy and everyone who would be harmed. It is also in his character to be overcome with a deep shame for said instinct leading him to light his saber against his nephew. Which is exactly what happens. Confronting the idea that by becoming a Jedi Master Luke somehow became perfect and omniscient is part of the narrative of the movie and Luke's character arc. It also addresses a key part of the prequels world building that was waiting to be explored properly.

[@penelopew77]

I think that you are exactly wrong. Luke, of all people, would believe in the ability to overcome a proclivity toward the dark side. Luke, who fought against joining his father on the dark side and saw it lead to the redemption of that father. Killing children was the final corruption of Anakin, but Luke is going to repeat that mistake on his own nephew? Luke, our Luke, would have seen that vision and doubled down on his efforts to protect and guide Kylo Ren, in an effort to prevent the vision from manifesting. A more interesting and in line with the Luke we know version of the story would actually have been if Luke became so controlling and overbearing during Kylo Ren’s training in an effort to prevent him from turning to the dark side that it eventually was what Kylo to rebel against Luke and the light side if the Force. It would have been a much more reasonable route to Luke feeling guilty and responsible. Even Mark Hamil doesn’t think Luke would do it and in the clip used in the video he said the had to pretend he was playing a different character to get through it.

[@Nefariousbig]

@penelopew77 no, he's not going to repeat that mistake. As shown in the third perspective, he stopped himself. He chose not to. But Kylo had seen him light his saber in fear and that was enough to cause him to flee. Why do people talk about what happened as if Luke made a decisive choice to kill Kylo when he did the explicit opposite?

[@irena4545]

@@Nefariousbig Because he lit that lightsabre. His instinctive reaction to seeing Kylo as a source of _future_ danger was to kill. Yes, he stopped himself, but that instinctive impulse is absolutely abhorrent. It would be out of place for any sane person to have that reaction to a reveal about someone close to them, and for a Jedi master trained in discipline and living his life in compassion and understanding, doubly so. - Sure, you _can_ have Jedi masters fail like that.... but you have to build some arc towards it, not just present it as a done deal.

[@Nefariousbig]

@@irena4545 do you know how big a trillion is? Also did you forget that Lukes core character trait is his impulses and emotions? Again, thinking he came out of the OT as a perfect being who would never show emotion again is naive.

[@irena4545]

@@Nefariousbig Try go back to my post and read it again, please.

[@douglasphillips5870]

Star Wars has been pretty crappy since Return of the Jedi well before Disney got ahold of it

[@SuperRainbol]

I clicked thinking you would have some new insight but it's just 50 minutes of you crying about how they wrote some mainstream children's stories in a different way than you would like

[@MrNyathi1]

Dude: a 50-minute video when you're on 244 subscribers? We want to see whether you add value before we commit that much time.

[@dan_doug]

Bad advice! It’s my best performing video yet

[@MrNyathi1]

@@dan_doug There's a flaw in your logic, but hey, it's your channel. Thanks for the feedback.

[@roguepixel4753]

Another video complaining about TLJ. 🙄Characters grow and change. It sounds like you (like so many overgrown manchildren ) didn't like that your favorite character had flaws, so you make it everyone problem.

[@penelopew77]

There is a difference between creating a nuanced character with flaws & total character assassination that spits in the face of all the character development the character has undergone up until that point.

[@nooblordpolitics2405]

As Penelope said, characters changing is different than completely undoing a whole characters arc. Luke's whole arc in the original movies is realizing that he doesn't have to kill vader and that the darkness within him doesn't have to define who he is at heart. Then in TLJ we're expected to believe that Luke just completely forgets about forgiving his literal war criminal father and refuses to forgive his nephew for something he MAY OR MAY NOT SOMEDAY DO. Like please, I GENUINELY want you to reply and explain how that isn't just a character change for the sake of artificially creating conflict. Actually explain to us how its at all believable that Luke would condemn his innocent nephew of a crime he saw in a vision when he forgave Darth f**king Vader.

[@resistancepublishing]

Actually the characters didn’t grow. They devolved backwards into adult children

[@Nefariousbig]

@@nooblordpolitics2405 "refuses to forgive" This is how we know you have no fucking clue what even happened in the movie. Do you even understand that it showed you 3 perspectives of the incident and two of them were false?? Any conscious decision made by Luke in that moment was to put his lightsaber away. He actively chose against harming Kylo. It was just too late because Kylo had already seen him light it out of pure instinct and fear. He also is then incredibly ashamed of himself for allowing even that brief moment of weakness. Genuinely what film do you think you watched?

[@swordfish1390]

It's complete and utter character assassination. There's "growing and changing", and then there's jumping the shark and turning the character into something he isn't. His character arc was completely undone in order to "subvert expectations" and to fit Ryan Johnson's narrative.

[@cardbazaargaming6012]

Are you Jonathan Lipnicki? You have to tell us, it's like being a cop

[@dan_doug]

🤫

[@_fabiolaborges]

what is your current instagram user? lol