Clean Barrel Vs. Dirty, 6.5 PRC

A quick test with my 6.5 PRC.
/ robsreloading

[@gearguidesguns571]

I really like the Patch out/Wipe out combination you used; also Bore Tech Eliminator and KG products work well but if one doesn't use a brush of some sort, it is especially difficult to remove carbon. Copper comes out pretty good with letting solvent sit and work, but carbon require more brushing or abrasives. I use both nylon and bronze brushes, but generally prefer bronze if the barrel is quite dirty. Nylon brushes work, but much slower and they don't take out carbon rings or heavy deposits very quickly. I use a bore guide and 1 piece rods, wiping the solvent and grime off the rods with a cloth or paper towel as I clean and have never damaged a barrel by using brushes. I am not a patient person, so letting barrels sit a long time is not my style and also it does not remove carbon properly without a brush. You can cause more barrel damage to cleaning your barrel by not cleaning it, than using a brush with the proper solvent, as Dirty barrels can and will attract moisture (this can cause rust or corrosion). Also, if you are using too harsh of a solvent and just patches (a strong ammonia type) and then leave it in the barrel for too long or not removing it all after cleaning, can also cause more damage (etching) than a brush and proper solvent will. Keeping your barrel consistently clean/a bit dirty is better than taking it to bare metal each time or letting it get too dirty. Generally, if you keep the barrel in a decently/consistent condition, the first shot down the barrel will be quite close to the next shots and fewer "fouling" shots are required to increase the velocity and return the rifles zero. Using a bit of bore oil/conditioner after cleaning the barrel, followed by 2 passes with a dry patch can help protect the barrel if it is stored and it also speeds up the first shot a bit more than on a perfectly dry barrel. Make sure to clean your chamber with a mop or a big patch on a nylon brush to remove any solvent, debris or bronze . While cleaning, also make sure to use a brush/solvent to remove any carbon ring at front of your chamber where you case mouth sits. Also, use Q-Tips and/or pipe cleaners if you use a muzzle brake, so that no solvent will run back into the barrel if you store your rifles barrel up. After I have used Q-tips on the brake and cleaned the chamber will, I always follow with one more dry patch down the barrel, to remove any solvent which you pushed into the bore from the chamber or barrel end. I Never found a decent or really good barrel to shoot better very dirty than relatively clean and in many cases I have seen group sizes grow until cleaning. Some barrels might need cleaning after 15 rounds if using all copper bullets and others can go over 100 no problem. Generally, high velocity/large powder capacity Magnum type calibers foul a barrel faster than 223, 308, 6 BR, 6.5 CM etc. I would rather clean my barrel a bit too often than not enough. Thanks for making interesting and useful videos.

[@ewathoughts8476]

My son also has a Bergara but in 6.5 CM. He tells me that after cleaning it takes 5 fowlers to stabilize the barrel performance, and that precision falls off after 50 to 75 shots. In my experience the rough barrels like come standard in a Savage will continue to shoot even when dirty, but never reach the level of precision you are attempting. The "smoother" the interior finish, the more picky the barrel can be, but when kept within the proper range of dirty, will perform very well. There will be people that will say "I shoot 1000 rounds and never clean" are not achieving the precision you are attempting, and are addressing completely different circumstances of use. Having test fired several water cooled machine guns has show what happens as the fowling increases, and dispersion only gets worse as the round count goes up. By the way, your barrel after cleaning was still filthy, and you have a large carbon ring at the end of the chamber neck area. That carbon ring can induce pressure spiking, and the length of the ring indicates your case trimming has been variable, or the brass is inconsistently expanding length wise as the burn sequence occurs. For precision results trim by the barrel not by the book. That means inspecting the gap between the brass and the end of the chamber neck before (no bullet seated) and after firing using your bore scope. If the brass gets shorter upon firing, trim longer so to close the gap as much as practicable.

[@RobsReloading]

Yeah it is interesting my bergara has been much more temperamental than my other rifles. My savages consistentently shoot well clean or dirty. My seekins has also shot well regardless of barrel status. It seems this bergara is going to need to be reasonably clean to shoot. Time will tell. We will continue to test here on the channel.

[@michaelangelino3189]

I too have been following EC’s cleaning regimen. When he said that you can keep a barrel consistently clean, but not consistently dirty, it all made sense to me. So now I start out with a nylon brush and some iosso when/if the barrel gets caked with carbon or copper, then clean using patch out and hoppes #9. If it’s a simple cleaning after a short range session, which most of the time it is, I only use the patch out and no iosso as it’s not necessary to get it back to clean. I’ve read the horror stories about “over cleaning” and how it ruined barrels. Heck, even Frank with Bartlein says over cleaning will ruin a barrel when using the method I use with the iosso. But, with how easy it has become to change out a barrel, I’ll treat it as any other consumable. I do believe him when he states that he has received back barrels that have been ruined by guys while cleaning. I just don’t believe the guys that have sent them back have just done the same stuff I am doing. They probably go crazy with brushes on cordless drills and the like. I’ve seen it myself personally. A buddy of mine lets them get so dirty, nothing gets them clean again outside of a bronze brush and a Makita. Of course you are going to ruin stuff doing crap like that. Moderation is the key to life in everything we do. I am also not a metallurgist, but I work with stainless everyday. I install 304 boxes in highly corrosive areas at water and wastewater treatment facilities. They last a long time. I find it very difficult to believe that a simple nylon brush and some cleaning products are so much stronger than 416ss. In the end, I have found that keeping my barrels clean has helped to shrink my groups in all calibers I load for. Everything from 223 to 6 arc to 6.5g to 308 and more. I just use common sense. Seems simple to me, but I’m just a simple guy. You do you, but your results help to point to what EC says is true. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate the videos.

[@RobsReloading]

Yes, I had generally let barrels go 100 or 150 rounds between cleaning, but now plan to clean every 50-100 rounds with the goal to get the barrel very clean. The results here I think make this a no brainier assuming testing continues to show better groups with clean barrels.

[@Longshothawk]

The most important cleaning tool is a bore scope. After that, iosso abrasive. I've tried the no brushes no abrasive route. It took days to get the barrel clean. Abrasives took that to 15-30 min. The powder used has a large impact on how often cleaning needs to be done. H1000 builds carbon rings real fast. Also if you shoot suppressed just go ahead and cut your cleaning interval in half.

[@robinleatherman2218]

Great video, My HMR BERGARA loves a clean barrel, 40 shots I clean it, 3/8 inch groups.

[@jacklucas7265]

It occurs to me that the issue might be one of parallax. When you load the rounds individually you lift your head from the gun. When you put your head back on the stock you may not have placed it in the same spot and you are potentially getting a different "view" of the target and thus the grouping shifts. Just a thought. I enjoy your videos, keep them coming.

[@RobsReloading]

Each time I sit down to shoot I adjust parallax accordingly. Don't think with it adjusted to minimize parallax could lead to this difference in group size. This sounds like something I should test. Intentionally induce parallax in the scope and come of the gun each round and compare that to staying on the gun throughout. I doubt you would see much more than a half inch difference at 100yds.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Good demo & good results. Thanks

[@SimpleLife1971]

Looking forward to your tuning strategy...thank you!

[@CEdwards-yf3fp]

So many opinions on scope leveling today. The thing you miss, when skipping the level with the rifle... For long distance, it's IMPORTANT that the scope vertical axis, is directly in line with the vertical axis is the barrel centerline. This places your line of sight/optic vertical in line with the barrel. Without the scope vertical axis DIRECTLY over the barrel centerline vertical axis, the best they can be is parallel, which is still a deviation, and will amplify at longer distances.

[@denisleblanc4506]

Did I notice a carbon ring in you bore scope view? It can be hard to clean that out but with these modern tight chambers you only need the case to be a little longer than the others and it will have the mouth of the case in the carbone ring. Maybe this happened and spiked the pressure enough too get the pierced primer and ejector smudge. I've been thinking about this lately. Maybe the older cartridge designs with looser chambers was a good idea and you didn't have to clean as often.

[@MrBoostin18]

Yep. He has the beginning of a mean carbon ring.

[@gearguidesguns571]

Yes, I noticed the carbon ring also and Rob will need to use some elbow grease (brush plus solvent) to removing this carbon ring. Just soaking the barrel with solvent and using patches won't clean the barrel. If that case was a bit longer than the others, it could be the easiest explanation for why their was pressure, but velocity was similar to the others.

[@cornbreadburgess1950]

Thanks for the video man, shoot then clean i

[@jeremylauer5234]

great videos. i've just purchased a Bergara B-14 HMR in 6.5 PRC and am looking to start reloading that and would like to get into some precision\accuracy shooting so being able to reload for that is important. something that might help me out would be an overall status of where your reloading data stands, which are the best combinations for your rifle and the plan to move forward.....like a recap, overall reload review, and whats the plan moving forward (tighter groups, better velocities, longer range, ...). thanks and really love learning all about this precision reloading. thanks and have a wonderful holiday season.

[@RobsReloading]

My rifle shot the Hornady 140gr bthp and the Berger 140 gr hybrid targets the best. Best powders I've used being vhit n560 and imr7828. I just was able to secure some h1000 and I'm sure that will be a superior powder.

[@lorenotake7745]

Try cleaning your firing pin assembly, you might have build up! Keep the assembly dry!!!!

[@billcarlson852]

I take a shower every day to "feel better". I wear clean clothes every day to "FEEL BETTER". I CLEAN MY RIFLES EVERY OUTING SO IT "FEELS BETTER PERFORMANCE"...

[@javiersp01]

you should try again: i would do a five shot group at 51 and 52.7

[@guardianminifarm8005]

I still wonder if 2870s seems a bit low on Velocity. Thanks

[@brandonrenner9597]

Having the same issues n group sizes with my hmr 6.5prc

[@jasonthorndyke5915]

Just wondering with the 6.5 prc begara did you do the break in process like they say to do from begara? I have both a .308 hmr and 300 prc and neither of them have to be clean to shoot .5 or less groups. Infact neither of them have really had anymore then a light cleaning and both have 1000 rounds + . The old theory is you have to build up copper fouling and you don't want to much or too little.

[@cory8791]

Could a bad primer pocket cause a issue?

[@gregturner7670]

How come you don’t do a seating depth test

[@joshclemons9975]

When I clean my bergara the first clean bore shot is always 8 inches high and the shots are at point of aim and group around a half inch with factory ammo is that normal

[@reloadingfun]

Nice, that's some interesting results. It's good to see some improvement. I'm surprised that the barrel needs to be cleaned that often also. It's been a while since I've watched his videos about cleaning. Was it just speedy that he interviewed? If there were others, were they benchrest shooters?

[@RobsReloading]

The video I am refercing is just cortina and speedy. It seems a lot of those guys also use an abrasive such as iosso or jb bore paste. I've not experimented with abrasives yet.

[@reloadingfun]

@Rob's Reloading ok, yep, I know what video you're talking about then. Keep in mind with those benchrest guys they have a little bit different mentality than the rest of the precision shooting community like the f-class and PRS guys. The benchrest shooters take it a little farther than necessary. I use abrasives on kind of a regular basis. I'll soak my barrel in gunslick foaming cleaner and then give the throat a few strokes with jb bore paste. Also, what I do depends on what the barrel looks like with a bore scope. I've actually found an abrasive necessary to sometimes. I've had some barrels that were so carboned that nothing would touch it, but abrasives. But that cleaner you used looks like it does what you need it to do. I think when you do load development on a really clean barrel you end up having to keep it really clean to maintain accuracy. I always do my load development for my f-class guns or any gun really with at least 15 to 30 rounds on it. I've literally had barrels that won't shoot accurately until there is 30 rounds on it, like the groups were triple the size until then.

[@RobsReloading]

@@reloadingfun honestly I used to believe you needed at least a hand full of rounds through the barrel before it would shoot. Obviously in my 6.5 prc this is not the case

[@reloadingfun]

@Rob's Reloading yeah, it would appear that way. But, keep shooting it without cleaning it to make sure, like I've said before, I've seen rifles take 20 or 30 rounds before they settle down, that's even been match grade barrels like krieger and bartlein. I know I'm just some random dude, but I've been doing this stuff for a long time, shooting f-class, reloading and even chambering barrels as a part time job. I just want to help and make sure you have a view of the whole spectrum. I remember what it's like to start out and wished I had someone to shed some light on things. Maybe I'm interjecting and shouldn't say anything without you asking. I Hope you don't mind. Bryan litz talks about a rifles accuracy and how one day it can shoot a 3/8" group and the next day it shoots a 5/8" group. He goes on to say that a rifles true accuracy is a average of many groups so, the results you had today may not be enough data to come to an accurate conclusion. Groups that string like that are historically inconsistent also. Your 6gt is kind of an example of that. It shoots nice round groups now. Anyway, I'm just a random dude who knows nothing without the content of a KZbin channel to validate myself to others lol.

[@RobsReloading]

@@reloadingfun yes, this is one test of 5 rounds so not statistically relevant. Plan going forward is to clean every 50 or so rounds and see how that turns out.

[@jamesbond7455]

Any thing not being a match barrel needs copper, my 700 shoot the best with good copper streaks, 1/2-3/4 groups, around 100-200 starts shooting over one moa, I use J&B bore paste gets the carbon and copper out and yes its abrasive but so are bullets at 60,200 psi, Then the groups really open up until between 10-20 rounds are fired. I use J&B bore paste on my shilen match grade barrel. And some bench rest rifle shooters. Chemicals can cause quick rusting and etching. Brand new barrel I give it a good cleaning first then use J&B and see how black the patch comes out. When I am done the barrels have a brighter shine. You could say I do a light hand lapping. Savage barrel are known for being rough and need 100-150 rounds to break in and put down some copper. Stock need some rounds to settle in, and keep an eye on the action screws torque inch pounds. You take the pressure off the front action screw and the barrel lifts up an half inch you have an bedding problem. You need to shoot more than five rounds to say a clean bore helps, I bet your rifle has a tight chamber, untrimmed brass to long can cause high pressure and cause blown primers. I hate match chambers you then need to bump the shoulders. I have been having trouble with high BC bullets their longer and you may not have the twist to shoot them accurate. By 308 win 1-12 twist likes fat bullets. 110-180 no ELD. I have a 308 with 1-10 twist it does not like the 110-150

[@sergeantdwz5783]

Shoot 53.3 gn as a group!

[@aaron.from.winchester6744]

I could never get my bore clean with Patch Out.

[@RobsReloading]

I'm going to do another video before and after with my 6 arc and see how clean these cleaning materials can do. I didn't let anything soak in 6.5 prc just a basic cleaning.

[@billcarlson852]

READ INCLUDED INSTRUCTIONS. ..

[@theclem55]

10 shots groups would have been better 😅

[@jcnikoley]

I’m not a big believer in cleaning the bore. What would that clean barrel look like after firing five shots? I bet it would look the same as after firing 1000. A bullet moving through the barrel at several thousand feet per second has got to be stripping out copper, also depositing new copper. It’s a net zero. Whatever chemical you use to dissolve the copper from the last round fired is also going to be eating away at the barrel metal to a degree, and will always be some residue, and it will continue to do its work while your gun sits in the safe. I think you get more rounds on a barrel by not cleaning it. I really didn’t see enough of a difference in those two groups with such a small sample size to convince me otherwise. It might work for Eric Cortina, It’s hard to know if it’s confirmation bias or actual science. My two Bergaras shoot like shit too. It doesn’t matter if they’re clean or dirty, they still shoot like shit.

[@RobsReloading]

Time will tell if this continues to help with accuracy in my bergara. If it does not you guys will see it here.

[@gearguidesguns571]

i have rifles that require frequent cleaning and others not so much. All copper bullets like barnes, Cutting edge, badlands, etc require more frequent cleaning I find and i never found a good barrel which shot better with 100-200 rounds through it than 5-20 rounds. Maybe there are some barrels which have been abused or one just gets lucky and accuracy doesn't change when dirty, but a dirty barrel also is more likely to attract moisture and corrode than one which is relatively clean. Cleaning a barrel to bare metal each time is not productive, but keeping it relatively clean is the better option than letting it get too dirty.

[@billcarlson852]

Try cleaning it like the INCLUDED GUN INSTRUCTIONS OUTLINE FOR MAINTENANCE. ....

[@davidpeterson6147]

your pierced primer was probably cased by a clump of cleaning material in the bottom of the case.

[@MrBoostin18]

As denis said. You have the beginning of a bad carbon ring and most likely why you pierced a primer.

[@RobsReloading]

Yes I noticed that and need to get that taken care of. At this point in time the video was more focused on the accuracy difference following cleaning.

[@anthonybending2687]

Barrel not even close to clean,

[@RobsReloading]

That is why I included the bore scope images. Relative to the dirty barrel it was clean.

[@anthonybending2687]

@@RobsReloading I've found,clean back to bare or don't touch it works beast, half clean not so good, good content though , 👍