What a terrific review! It’s not just that I agree with your points (“soft-core deep gibberish” is GOLD), it’s that the whole video is so well-balanced - bravo!
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
That’s the goal! Thanks Steve
@ClaireReadsBooks5 жыл бұрын
"riddled with empty moodiness" - what a great phrase/summation! haven't read this one but have been seeing a lot of praise for it, so i appreciate your dissenting opinion! i'm also about halfway through topics of conversation by miranda popkey right now and am feeling that it also might be a lot of empty moodiness?? there seems to be a lot of that in contemporary fiction right now lol
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
Oh that’s funny, I have Topics of Conversation in my online cart-heard it sort of reminiscent to Rooney. But yeah, it’s sounds like another form of the whole “characters just moving into different rooms” writing roadblock. I’m so confused by the praise!! Hopefully since it’s a new release more reviews can come in that I can get another perspective
@EricKarlAnderson5 жыл бұрын
I've not read Cleanness yet but the way you describe how the protaognist initiates emotional or sexual contact sounds like the most complicated mathematical equation.... which is really unsexy! 😂 A shame you didn't enjoy the book but thanks for such a thoughtful critique. I still feel compelled to read it but my expectations are definitely managed now. Have you read What Belongs to You and was your reaction to that book similarly negative?
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
It’s sad to admit but...I feel like I equationed myself! Haha, but yeah-a lot of my thoughts were completely at the work of mining for meaning, sadly Greenwell’s bare prose didn’t leave me feeling immersed in my eventual, compiled thoughts. I haven’t read What Belongs To You but I heard that Cleanness was supposed to be the “better” one 🤯
@smw77915 жыл бұрын
I feel the need to offer up my reading of the book, as it’s entirely at odds with your own. Maybe just for the simple fact that I’d say I really needed to read this book. I’ll try to explain myself as well as I can, but I finished the book about a week ago and I’ve read two other books in between, so my hold on it isn’t as fresh as it could be - you know how it goes, I’m sure. Let me start by saying that I had read Greenwell’s novel, What Belongs to You, in 2016 and thoroughly disliked it. I’d say your impression of Cleanness entirely mirrors my own reaction to that novel. It felt empty. A lot of arched sentences, conjuring some amorphous moodiness. So my expectations were fairly low for Cleanness. For some reason, I was still willing to give it shot and bought it a few weeks back. I guess the first reason this book won me over is its structure. I had the feeling, listening to your review, that you were discussing the book as a novel. I know you said you’re aware the chapters were intended as stand-alone stories even if they all shared the same protagonist-narrator, but I personally found a strength of the book to be the spaces in between the sections. Even though the middle chapters are clearly set in the framework of a story (of having a boyfriend, struggling with the boyfriend, losing the boyfriend), I still feel like the sections take “themes” as their subject matter more than any plot. I read somewhere, after I finished the book, that Greenwell wanted the chapters to be like a Lieder cycle, songs that repeat and echo one another. What I’m trying to say is, I was invested not so much in the protagonist as a character as I was in the themes his actions and thoughts conjured, and how those themes twisted, shifted and changed over the course of the book. I saw in another comment that you were weren’t “sure what Cleanness was doing other than being another sad-gay-man narrative in my eyes,” and I do feel like it must be a failure of the book that you weren’t able to see the breadth of stories it was trying to tell. For example, the book for me offered a reflection on teaching. I didn’t read the first story thematizing the distance between a “young” gay and an older generation. Instead, it was trying to deal with the perceived inefficacy of teaching, or more exactly, the inefficacy of advice and maybe of words in general. These questions of “mentorship,” of advising, recur also in the stories “Decent People” as well as “An Evening Out.” I think those questions could all together even be summarized in the one simple question, “who knows best?” The protagonist seems to be repeatedly questioning whether he really has the authority, the experience, to be able to help others. I think the question also extends to his own desires; I think his sexual encounters leave him with the question, “do I even know myself best?” His sex takes him to parts of himself he would maybe like to ignore, particularly what he might label as a certain self-destructive drive. And I think we're supposed to see him as problematically self-pathologizing himself. I could go on, I think. But I’ll leave it at that for now! I wouldn’t say the story is only a sad-gay-man narrative. Based on my reading, I wouldn’t choose sad as the driving characterization. I would choose doubtful. The protagonist is full of doubt, especially self-doubt. I think the stories capture well the self-doubt that someone can feel as they self-consciously venture through a transition.
@smw77915 жыл бұрын
I wrote this off quickly, so I apologize if some of it sounds stream-of-conscious and plagued with typos! But I also want to say I really enjoyed your review, and I too have been trying to think how this book fits into the gay canon. I'd love to continue the conversation with you!
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
Wonderful insights! I agree that I don’t think “sad” is the encompassing feeling of Cleanness, as I generalized it for the sake of just replying to the comment-I do think the protagonists doubt was apparent, hence how I also thought he was someone emotionally mature and intellectually curious enough to know the difference of his emotions. Even still, what is lost to me is his sort of trance like state he finds himself in during sex, especially the whole adoption of asserting the meaning of pleasure in his partners. I didn’t personally read it as he was ever ignoring these sort of desires, if anything I think he was waiting for them to arise and consume him. It may be that the protagonist (again, just in my eyes) doesn’t want to face his own conception of what is means to be gay that he’s been molding for years-at least my reading basis being the quote I read about the two different types of people he’s having sex with. Again, this is why I find the sex scenes most interesting (er, except the one chapter with the kinky stuff, which to me felt just like padding). I definitely think the thematic structure of Cleanness is an important piece of its overall effect, but even with my considerations of it after reading the book, I never felt it had entire dependency on the effectiveness related to the revelations the character had or went through-although, that note you mention of Greenwell wanting it to feel like a song, or echo, is a perfect representation of the feeling and I think it definitely works, but I suppose I read it as more stylish than substantial. But again, it’s as you say, for the protagonists case observing himself or those around him, “who’s to say?” If more of these standout scenes and moments you mentioned happened more often in Cleanness (and not the dreadful blips of prose, “absence of feeling” and the like....) I think I would have liked it more-I think Greenwell just thought he needed less favorable moments sprinkled in for the sake of rounding things out. Again (how many times will I say “again”? Haha) thank you so much for your insight!! This is entirely why I make videos. If anyone stumbles along to my review, I hope they also scroll down to read your thoughts as well
@BookishTexan5 жыл бұрын
Not a book I've read, but I think I saw it reviewed somewhere else recently. As always I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the book.
@shawnbreathesbooks5 жыл бұрын
Exquisite. Wow. Want to avoid the novel all the more, but I have a feeling I am going to be referring back to your review again and again!
@haroldniver5 жыл бұрын
I haven’t read this yet, but perhaps a ‘Sex-binge stupor with unenlightening revelations’ is the point? Maybe it’s just to suggest that there is little meaning to be found in such wanton expressions of one’s desires? I don’t know... just an idea.
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
This could very well be it and I think you’re right-I just wish Greenwell tried making his story/character decisions more intentional or challenging, I wasn’t sure what Cleanness was doing other than being another sad-gay-man narrative in my eyes
@zeldalovermariopizza5 жыл бұрын
the bong hive grows DAILY
@anenthusiasticreader5 жыл бұрын
Parasite! I still think about that movie. (I don't think I'm up to reading Cleanness. Is there ever a reference to the title in the text? Because to me, the title doesn't in the least pull me toward the book.) Thanks for the honest review.
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
Parasite is amazing!! I was floored by it. The only title reference for Cleanness is the title story, the same story featuring the boy that smiles at the protagonist. Luckily it never felt gimmicky, it really read as sweet-but got shrouded in the “sad gay men” territory tale..
@WeirdBookBookClub5 жыл бұрын
I haven't read Cleanness, but I share your sentiment that people seeking to write transgressive, sexual literature should study up on the existing canon. I always feel this sense of embarrassment for an author who seems to think they're being totally radical by allowing their characters to indulge in anything remotely kinky, unaware that de Sade, Bataille, etc. have already surpassed them 1000 times over. Fascinating review as always, Alex!
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
Thanks Dan! Have you heard of Edouard Louis? I’ve heard his work, while modern, is a bit more capturing and considerate, albeit autobiographical, which I don’t mind. I’m hoping to read him soon
@WeirdBookBookClub5 жыл бұрын
@@whatpageareyouon I haven't read any Louis yet, but am intrigued by what I've heard... even more so no that you've brought him up. I think autobiographical can be an asset in this type of fiction--harder for sexuality to slip into abstraction when it's attached to lived experiences. (I mean, possibly... I have very few sources to back that argument up, but it worked well in Brontez Purnell's fiction and he is the best.)
@martintakeheart99035 жыл бұрын
not gonna lie when I saw the thumbnail i thought it was *on earth we're briefly gorgeous* and within 30 seconds of your review you saying "a story as old as time about sad gay men" which could also apply to oewbg haha. I found oewbg underwhelming, and I like the ideas cleanness seems to be using but considering I agreed with your oewbg review i'll most likely agree with this one after I read cleanness
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
I liked Greenwell’s ideas too, just wished it was executed better. And am I the only one that thinks it’s weird with the trend of sad lgbtq theme inclusive adult books having these close-up body black and white/muted/desaturated shots ?? (Cleanness/Lie With Me/A Little Life ???) haha
@lucyrutherford5 жыл бұрын
This is nothing to do with your review but I love the colour of your jumper!
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
Haha it’s my favorite one!
@reglara795 жыл бұрын
Lolol, tale as old as time. Surely there is better out there for us. Thanks for the review!! I'm thinking I can skip this one.
@whatpageareyouon5 жыл бұрын
You’re welcome! And it’s strange-I’m glad I picked this one up, even if it didn’t work for me