Climbers Over-Complicate Pullup Training

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[@zenks5883]

Holy shit your back looks insane man, respect, ill be there some day

[@Thejohnster1012]

hoopy the goat

[@HoopersBeta]

Baaa

[@letsallgoforawalk]

I'm gonna subscribe cause even though I am not focused on climbing, you have awesome information. I'm a woman and can't get near being able to do pull ups and its making me very mad lol.

[@agoogleuser4356]

Amen sis. … let’s go for a walk!

[@ИванИванов-ц1я9ф]

Your right shoulder seems higher than the left, is this because of some injury or imbalance?

[@HoopersBeta]

Injury. Nearly fully recovered but a minor compensation can still be noted, more so with higher loads. And some movement patterns that developed as a compensation. Nothing that has had a significant / negative impact on my overall performance, though.

[@SolusDarkcoat]

Also pull to the chest, not chin

[@damnnn3790]

Me watching this (cant do a pull up)

[@KiraPlaysGuitar]

Start with negatives, from the "up" position, and trying to lower yourself, with control. You can do reps of these to build strength!

[@nekomancer4641]

I couldn't do a pull up for my whole life too before I started climbing. But after like a few months of climbing i can do a few pullups at least!

[@essie23la]

@@nekomancer4641 that's awesome! After more than a year of bouldering on and off, i started sending my first few V4's including an overhang one that depended on a big powerful move up to a crimp (maybe tmi but I was psyched haha), still can't do even one pullup lmao

[@KaleTornado]

Wake up babe new hoopers hippos short

[@SuedeNWings]

appreciate this info greatly!

[@deathsoulger1]

I can only get halfway up before my forearm fascia pull to much on my medial epicondyle.

[@lil3500]

I’m stuck at 14 pull up bcs I don’t eat enough

[@ApequH]

How do you train when you want to get to one pull-up?

[@LegitosaurusRex]

You can use pull-up resistance bands, and/or start with negatives, where you get into the finish position using a step stool or something, then lower yourself down with as much control as possible.

[@myka788]

I weigh 140lbs so I would need to attach 210lbs to myself to achieve 150% of my bodyweight right? That seems crazy! I'm an actual idiot so plz help.

[@HoopersBeta]

150% bodyweight means 100% of your bodyweight + another 50%. So if you weigh 140lbs, a 150% bodyweight pull up would mean attaching 70lbs to yourself.

[@matthewgutierrez4620]

150% body weight??

[@HoopersBeta]

50% added to your normal body weight = 150% body weight.

[@KiraPlaysGuitar]

You can do it!

[@stanislavgladkih1507]

@@HoopersBeta in one pull, or in a set like 5 reps in 4 sets?

[@HimanXK]

​@@stanislavgladkih1507in a set of 3-6 reps like he described for training

[@agoogleuser4356]

Regression me.

[@venkatvallabhaneni1227]

Is 150% of your bodyweiight on pullups including your bodyweight or only external load? Because if it is only external load that seems like an extremely elite standard.

[@nekomancer4641]

50% external load

[@LePetitBat]

I've never heard about anyone doing a pull-up with +150%, sounds crazy. I know Emil did a +100kg pull-up which should amount to about 130%. This is already astonishing

[@hidden546]

I was like weight a second I need to do 300 lbs added on? Holy shit lmao

[@TehLiquid]

Does 150% mean 100% of your bodyweight + 50% of your bodyweight as extra, or does it mean 150% weight minus BW? For instance, if I weigh 60kg, do I need to do 90kg+BW pullups, or 30kg+BW pullups?

[@HoopersBeta]

150% bodyweight pullup means you add 50% of your bodyweight to yourself with weights, so in your example, 30kg+BW

[@SethPierceClimbing]

You're the best.

[@pupojuni6482]

40 for weight is low, i think

[@hyau23]

Don't have pull up bar, only have access to bm1000 jugs. This feels like it's not wide enough. Should I stick to using the BM?

[@HoopersBeta]

If that’s your only option it can definitely work! It’s a bit narrower than I prefer for most people but you can still make progress and ideally eventually switch to one-arm training.

[@mayak1193]

I don't have that much weight plates around the house. Roughly, how many reps of non weighted pull up is equivalent of 150% weighted pull up?

[@HoopersBeta]

It doesn’t work like that I’m afraid, at least not for strength training. However, there are other options, such as assisted one-arm pull-ups, one-arm lock-offs (aka isometrics), or just improvising weights with water jugs, concrete blocks, etc. -Emile

[@Shrimp0000]

I see a bit of asymmetrical movement in your pull-ups

[@HoopersBeta]

Correct, that was when I was still rehabbing from an injury myself which produced an asymmetry.

[@mrmoorash]

So you are saying that if i can do 1 pull up with additional 150% of my bodyweight (i weight 80 kilos so it will be 120 kg of additional weight), only then i can start doing assisted one armers?

[@HoopersBeta]

A 150% bodyweight pullup means you’re pulling up your body plus an additional 50% of your body weight

[@mrmoorash]

@@HoopersBeta thanks.

[@grigorbrowning]

How many sets do you recommend?

[@personperson2380]

look into strength vs hypertrophy. the number of reps/sets will depend on your goals. in general, sticking to low-rep 'strength sets' will yield results climbers want.

[@rubentandy7654]

he said sets, not reps. i would say 5 sets a week in one day is good enough to maintain strength, and 3 sets in a day twice a week is good to gain!

[@grigorbrowning]

@@rubentandy7654 thank you - good info. Cheers also for recognising the nature of my question. Always interesting to hear what the climbing community finds works for them. Especially given that we add hard boulder sessions or board training and hence it's often more complicated than a conventional gym approach.

[@xerikl]

Bro how do you even work up to 1 pull up

[@HoopersBeta]

Lots of ways! You can use a pulley or resistance band for assistance, or do eccentric lower-downs (aka just the lowering portion of the pullup)

[@DebateCentrals]

150% of your bw? Damn!

[@SwainixFPV]

I think they mean 50% on top of your bw

[@personperson2380]

@Swainix 150% of your bodyweight is the same thing as 50% 'on top'

[@SwainixFPV]

@@personperson2380 yeah ik I wanted to make it clearer for the person above me but it sounds like I didn't understand it reading my comment now lol

[@jevenator]

So if I weigh 200 I should aim to have 100lb hang from my waist till I move to one arm?

[@SwainixFPV]

@@jevenator yeah series of 4 to 6 pull ups with 100 lbs hanging under you

[@craigbritton1089]

I would ask: are you trying to get better at training numbers or at climbing? I have found that if I tried to do max training after climbing; then overtraining was easy to do; ang then get injured But if I focused on doing around 80-90 percent of max I would gain endurance; and faster recovery. And if I felt that my climbing session had not worked strength enough; doing isometric pulls at weak and strong points in the pull up arc was safer and more beneficial. I know several climbers who had years of trying to do one arms; and only got it after doing one arm isometrics.

[@HoopersBeta]

Thanks for chiming in! I'm a little unclear on what you're saying. Regarding your first point: Getting better at "training numbers" is how we progress strength exercises. If you don't progress the exercises (numbers), you won't get better at them, meaning they won't help you climb better. Regarding your next point: If you're not recovering between sessions, you're not managing the load well (too much load or not enough recovery time in between) -- this is regardless of the type of training you're doing (strength, endurance, power, etc). Regarding your last point: I agree, targeting weak spots can be useful and isometrics are convenient for that! 🤙 -Emile

[@Kushibunny]

FYI on one arms and other similar exercises, Chris Heria recommends working eccentrics as progression, ie. Two hand pull up, and lower on one.

[@craigbritton1089]

@@HoopersBeta I guess I was thinking unclear in trying to make the point that I have seen lots of climbers over the years who got better at some training exercise while not getting better at climbing itself. If you develop the ability to to do a one arm pullups on a 10 mm edge; but are still falling off the easier climbing on a route with a low crux; that trained ability is not helping you climb better. I have seen multiple climbers climb harder after they " lost" the ability to do one arm/ one finger pullups; and got stronger cores; better footwork; less "over pulling" done because they were so strong; learning how to rest. As you well know; the body adapts to the specific training one does; so at a certain point; one often can just get better at " training." I have seen multiple 5.12/13+ climbers who could do one arm/ one finger pullups; fall on 5.5/6slab. ( The Trough at Big Rock) And they realized they didn't need stronger fingers; and more hangboarding; but better footwork . ( And I was guilty of some of this myself; I could do more crack machine pullups than Yaniro; but he could out climb me. When I was hanging on my arms to rest my legs; it dawned on me that maybe getting out a few more reps on the hangboard/ crack machine was not going to improve my overall climbing; and may be actually hindering it.

[@danielbeall7725]

@@Kushibunny Not typically a fan of these personally, but they can be pretty handy as a supplement in moderation.

[@Kushibunny]

@@danielbeall7725 kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnPcm3ptot6gmtk

[@alessandrobianchini7101]

i struggle to retract the scapulas when doing a pull up, but i have the necessary strength to do them, what can i do?

[@stretch8390]

You could try strengthen retracting the shoulders in dead hangs.

[@rrrabe]

try scap shrugs to build strenth, and during pullups try bringing you chest to the bar as a form cue

[@noahnewkirk1352]

I've been under the impression that most strength training (especially finger training) should be done prior to a climbing session in order to: (A) Prevent injury by not lifting heavy loads while fatigued. (B) Keep the progression more consistent and numbers more predictable. My climbing sessions vary significantly in levels of exertion. If I did strength training at the end, my strength session performance would vary greatly day by day. This is just what I have learned from experienced climbers and personal experience. It seems doing strength training beforehand has a negligible effect on my climbing session, whereas, if done after, my climbing session would have a seriously detrimental impact to my strength session. Do you have sources that recommend Strength training after a climbing session? What reasons made you come to that conclusion? What pros and cons have you identified with doing strength training first vs last? I'll check out the video you mentioned when I have time bc I'm sure it goes more in depth. I understand if you don't get around to responding to my comment. Thank you very much for the work you do in helping the climbing community stay informed and injury free!

[@InterwovenElements]

Climbing is chaotic and very inconsistent loading of your muscles and ligaments. Training is much more controlled and you can adjust the load easily.

[@HoopersBeta]

Great question! And truly the answer can be "it depends", because it depends on the individual and their training. Yes, finger training is almost always recommended prior to a session because you don't want to do it at the end when you're quite fatigued. But... what if you use very light climbing as a warm up to a finger training session, is that OK? Certainly. And what happens to your fingers during climbing if you have a hard finger training session? Well, you should certainly expect to focus more on technique and perhaps not your absolute limit climbing. I don't often recommend someone do a max finger training and then immediately go into projecting, and I think we can intuitively agree that if you are projecting you are trying to save some of that strength to complete the hard climb :) The same can be said with weight training. You could use climbing as a gentle warm up and do strength at the end, or you could have a really solid climbing session, and then do strength training on an off day or at the end (adjusting the weights to meet your needs on that particular day). But, in this situation with max strength weighted pull-ups, it would likely detract from a productive powerful climbing session if it were done in the beginning, and that would take away from the goal IF the goal of that session was to have a hard climbing session. If, on the other hand, you combine strength training in the beginning with a moderate climbing day where you're more focused on technique and/or flashing moderate routes, then that's OK. So, as you can see, there is a lot of variability in the approach. I hope that helps clear it up a bit!

[@HoopersBeta]

Edit: lol Jason and I responded at the same time. I'll leave my response below for another perspective. Plenty of people do their strength training before climbing and it can work out just fine. It can even have some benefits, as you mentioned. On the other hand, for people who aren't as experienced with climbing and training, their main priority should usually be quality climbing sessions, and they will be more prone to compromising those climbing sessions with strength training because 1. they don't know how to manage load as well and 2. they haven't build up a high work capacity. So, for a lot of people, doing some or all strength training after climbing is a good way to ensure that your strength training remains supplemental to your climbing (rather than taking center stage). Also, I don't necessarily think it's a good thing for your climbing sessions to vary massively in exertion unless you're doing it for a specific purpose (e.g. one day for low-effort technique training, one power training day, one endurance day, etc.) -- but less experienced climbers are less likely to be programming their sessions that specifically, in which case inconsistent sessions will simply lead to inconsistent results. (Finger training is a bit different and should almost always be done before climbing in my opinion.) Hope that answers some of your questions! -Emile

[@noahnewkirk1352]

Thank you both for your in depth responses! You both brought up important nuances to consider. Thanks again for taking the time to respond :)

[@thomasgoossen]

should be more like 5-8 reps but great information

[@Noshuas]

Lower is more strength specific. Higher reps will still provide a strength stimulus, but will also provide more of a hypertrophy stimulus which isn't as ideal for a highly relative-strength base sport.

[@thomasgoossen]

@@Noshuas Valid point, however lower rep ranges are harder to maintain over long periods of time due to the intense demands on the nervous system and will likely produce plateaus. By opting to increase the rep range to 5-8 you offset this problem and are able to make consistent gains across much longer periods of time. As for muscle growth, that primarily will come down to dietary choices and calorie counting. In other words, the dirtbag ramen noodle diet might not be a bad idea if you're concerned about muscle growth but still want to make gains over the long term.

[@basurabasura]

+150% bodyweight before moving to assisted one arms¿? Isn't that A LOT? Emil does +65kg on 2 reps which is prolly around 80%ish of bodyweight

[@HoopersBeta]

150% bodyweight means you’re pulling your bodyweight + an extra 50%, for 150% of your bodyweight in total. So a 150% bodyweight pull-up for a 150lb person would mean bodyweight+75lbs.

[@NicholasRouland]

He means +50% body weight, so if I’m 100 lbs I would do pull-ups with weight until I could do 5 reps with a 50lb dumbbell and then move onto 1 arm pull-ups

[@karlderdelinckx]

I used to train my pullups in trying max pullups like +20 something. But the last years I changed my training to weights and max 5 pullups. My pullups are ok but I have troubles when trying to do as much pullups as I can. It doesn’t go as easely as it used to when I mostly trained those. Any idea why?

[@zacharylaschober]

local muscular endurance, meaning the pulling muscles are not as accustomed to working in this taxed state, and there is a skill and pacing element as well. my max pullups has actually decreased recently to below 20, but at that time I was working on one arm pullups. now, one arms are "easy" but I cannot do 20 pullups. a few sessions reducing the weight and increasing repetitions nearer to failure and you will see your numbers increase quickly, but this will cause more need to recover post session and may not have the transfer to the wall you want.

[@karlderdelinckx]

@@zacharylaschober tnx. don’t know about the transfer to the wall. A bit more endurance for my power will help me be stronger for longer. Otherwise it’s a one shot thing every time. I don’t think that being able to do more pullups in a row would make me lose the one arm ability. And i usualy take one or 2 days of in between trainings so that should be enough to recuperate.

[@sanddr.]

I don't have any weights what can i do?

[@HoopersBeta]

Water jugs, make your own weights, or do one-arms with a band

[@sanddr.]

@@HoopersBeta also what are the differences between harder exercises and weights like how's it work

[@cameronmilling9653]

It is good to have strong arms but generally for climbing you shouldn’t rely on your arms that much and u should use ur legs More

[@ErikB605]

But they are stronger to begin with. So much so that you don't really have to strength train them. If someone says you should use your legs more he usually means your technique needs improvement not that you should train your legs.

[@rubenzanti3530]

150% for 1 rep or 3-5 reps?

[@HoopersBeta]

It’s just a rough guideline, so it doesn’t matter that much.