Eleonore Stump - Do Major Religions Worship the Same God?

[@rocio8851]

Such a wise woman! May God bless her.

[@chrisbennett6260]

is she still here

[@jamiel5708]

This woman is a fountain of wisdom.

[@slawomirjakubek]

I liked her immediately. Very wise woman. I wish she was my aunt.

[@andrebrown8969]

She is sneaky, cunning and intellectually hypocritical. You are confusing how she comes across to actually what she says.

[@joshheter1517]

Andre Brown How is she “intellectually hypocritical”? Please be very specific.

[@andrebrown8969]

@@joshheter1517 She is arguing for something that clearly is not true or real as if it is. You cannot argue a god into existence, no one can.

[@joshheter1517]

Andre Brown 1. How do you know it’s not real / true? 2. Even if it can’t be argued to be true, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. 3. Even if she’s mistaken about God’s existence, that doesn’t make her a “hypocrite”.

[@andrebrown8969]

@@joshheter1517 When a god actually communicates with everyone, I will be convinced, but I will most likely not worship it. If you cannot prove it, and a god is something you cannot prove, 'therefore it is true?' Saying it is okay to suffer 'because of a god?' not cool.

[@OriginalBonJovi]

I had the tremendous honour of meeting Professor Stump last summer. One of the great philosophers of our time.

[@bellsTheorem1138]

People in the same religion don't worship the same god. They all suit it to represent their own personal beliefs.

[@jzonkel]

People in the same religion (Belief system) don't worship the same god. They all suit it to represent their own personal beliefs (Belief system) People worship their own god only if they don't have a religious affiliation. If they have a common definition of god then they worship the same god. If they have differing "personal beliefs" about god or related subjects, then they do not have a religious affiliation.

[@haroonhafeez2368]

@@jzonkel who told you that? Jabriel?

[@jzonkel]

haroon hafeez logic

[@haroonhafeez2368]

@@jzonkel if you don't mind can introduce yourself? Just ethnicity and country?

[@haroonhafeez2368]

@@jzonkel i want the healthy argument, sorry for my initial comment it was rude.

[@donald347]

Stump is my favourite interviewee on this channel

[@patbrennan6572]

I would change the title to, Do major religions worship the same man made god?

[@chrisbennett6260]

fascinating take on things

[@cat_pb]

Loved this, and I fully believe in what she said!

[@ramaraksha01]

The question is why does one need to worship? Is God like a King, Dictator who needs constant reassurance? We must praise him so that he feels good? And then he will be happy and give the us good life? Is that how we do things today? If I say you got the job or promotion because you polished the right shoes or praised the boss, you didn't Earn what you got - that would be deemed an insult But when it comes to religion - back in time we go - we must beg & grovel our way to Heaven - and religion says make sure you pray to the "right" God, which of course is theirs! Amazing to see educated, intelligent people indulging in division, bigotry and hate

[@ramaraksha01]

@@rubiks6 You have no idea who he is what he looks like, there is zero evidence of any God - you don't even know his gender If God were to come down in a human form would you be able to recognize him? What if he came down as a black man? As a Woman? Your religion says God answers to only the name Jesus - but what if they don't use such a word? Kick God out? The more I read what you wrote I see a slave talking about Her Master Obey the Master, grovel to the Master - pleased He will reward you Otherwise He will torture me? That is what Dictators have done Putin kills anyone who speaks out against him - is that your God? How is it that you live in a free country, talk about freedom of speech yet when it comes to religion, you turn Communist? Is a person nothing else except for religion? Do good works not matter? From your words I see that good works do not matter - only loyalty to the Master That's where the begging and groveling comes in How in the 21st century we are stuck with Master/Slave religions is beyond me

[@davidaustin6962]

Those with "division, bigotry, and hate" ... they're not worshiping the real God. He doesn't want that. He doesn't even want groveling. He doesn't want people to bow down and tell Him that He's awesome, which is really what most people think of when they speak of worshiping. Instead He is in a very real way our Father, and if you have a father, or are a father, you know that fathers want their kids to make good choices, and to keep in touch ... that's really ALL He wants. Nothing more. Even in the scriptures that's all he wants ... yeah, in the old testament 3000 years ago there was some whack stuff, but that's not the kind of God people believe in today. He's a father, and nothing wrong with a Father wanting a relationship with his child, and nothing wrong with a child wanting a relationship with their father. The God you talk about, and that kind of relationship, I agree, it's messed up. Your idea of God ... that's not God. He's just your Father. Cut Him some slack, and chill out about those who have a relationship with their "Heavenly" father.

[@ramaraksha01]

@@davidaustin6962 and yet have you ever spoken up as your religion goes around the world telling innocents that they better convert or else? Such a God is a master, a king - demanding obedience & loyalty inreturn for his favors The reason Hindus do not proselytize isthat no Father would divide His own children, no Mother would kick out her own son We Hindus remain true children of God Whereas you Christians & you with your silence have reduced yourself down to a slave begging for the Masters Mercy There is more to God as a Father than a "relationship" your sneaky way of "convert & our God will reward you" Again with the idea of a reward - a slave word God seen as a Sugar Daddy - the ticket to the easy good life As children of God Hindus are asked to make our Parents Proud! The terminology a child uses is diffferent from a slave's Go over the words in the Bible - are they words of a slave or a child? Then read the Ramayana - see how children view their Father

[@davidaustin6962]

@@ramaraksha01 did you even read what I said before you replied to it? Apparently not, or you're more interested in forwarding your narrative than engaging in productive dialogue.

[@ramaraksha01]

@@davidaustin6962 Well unless you live in a cave, you do realize that your religion goes around the world killing off small religions by telling them that they will be going to hell unless they convert. That contradicts what you posted No father would divide his own children. No Father would rape his own daughter in hell As a Parent you want your children to understand their mistakes and become better people, it should not be about punishment But that is not how your religion preaches Works don't matter - ie good choices that you talk about don't matter What matters is which religion you belong to - you could be an Atheist doctor losing his life trying to save strangers from CoronaVirus but that won't save you from hell This is how conversion is pushed My question to you is when did any Christian speak up? When did any Christian say this was wrong? Billions of innocent people to be set apart like Jews under Hitler and sent off to gas chambers in hell Nazi ideas being freely promoted by your religion And none of you speak up

[@frank_a]

I like the vision of this woman on this issue. I completely agree with her.

[@ibperson7765]

It’s a bit harder to find salvation without knowing the depth of what God did for you by coming and dying for your sins. Not impossible perhaps, just easier knowing.

[@schuey999]

Beautiful woman and soul. Very excited to discover her today. The host should wise up and open his heart

[@VedantaKesari]

When someone like Jesus says "I am the Way" the particular is the universal.

[@johnsmith1474]

Each religion believes the others to be false, and all are correct. - Nicolas Chamfort

[@User-jr7vf]

Haha well put

[@davidaustin6962]

And all have some truth.

[@johnsmith1474]

@@davidaustin6962 - Delusional child is muted. No time for imbeciles.

[@ryanoliveira4562]

In fact, only Islam and Christianity thinks in this way

[@antmaysnake8259]

Very smart woman.

[@robertmiller5258]

I can’t say how much I admire and agree with her. She is the American Elizabeth Anscombe.

[@dougg1075]

When we get there, if it’s not what religion taught, I don’t think we will care. The universe is stranger than we can imagine.

[@nsjx]

there is only one Truth and the rest is interpretation. thanks for reforming the question. what is intriguing to me is how the golden rule and its several close variations make appearance in most religious texts, god-fearing or no.

[@davidaustin6962]

And if there is a God don't you think He'd be regularly inspiring people with stuff like the Golden Rule, even long before Jesus? Of course He would.

[@jjcm3135]

Most brilliant expositor of Christ I know.

[@piehound]

In a word NO. BTW religions don't "worship." They provide (1) Explanations and (2) Opportunity and / or environments for humans to "worship" in. God blesses me too. In fact the universe blesses all its creatures. It (or He) is so generous. The attitude of being ungrateful is what we do with that.

[@ximenabucheli8145]

Her argument makes perfect sense to me.

[@samuelarthur887]

The woman is smart.

[@DianelosGeorgoudis]

Excellent. I quite agree with her but I don't see why that position should not be called "universalist" simpliciter. She explains why "beliefs about" are not really relevant.

[@johnfarris6152]

Revelations, describes the outer court as for those who did not know Christ but had his likeness. The inner sanctum is for those that died for Christ. The Court yard is for those that lived for Christ.

[@User-jr7vf]

Let me guess.. this is the reason for so many holy wars in the past.

[@johnfarris6152]

@@User-jr7vf Their have been many kinds of war in the past. That's just what happens when a whole lot of people do what a small number of people tell them to do.

[@lilbitsupreme9122]

The foundation of the creation lies cemented by his seal unmovable that moves.

[@thomasmorrell2737]

Her attempt at making this position consistent with Christianity rests on an interpretation of John 14:6 that cannot be applied to John 8:24: 'Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he [the messiah] , you shall die in your sin.' Certainly, there is such a state in which one may be invincibly ignorant of the true religion, in that case theologians teach that the observance of the natural law will avail them. However, Psalm 95:5 tells us that the gods of the pagans are demons. Whatever truths they have are truths accessible to the light of reason alone. Primarily these religions are a means of damnation in promulgating moral precepts that violate the natural and divine law. There's a reason why she gave the example of the apparently benign tree god of the Pygmies rather than those bloodthirsty for human sacrifice worshipped by the Aztecs. Christianity teaches that the state of man as a result of Original Sin is such that all peoples are in need of Christ. In these times the state of 'invincible ignorance' and its relevant dispositions is extremely rare, the Gospel has indeed been preached to all nations. Humans are obliged to do whatever is in our power to know God. The law of God is written on the hearts of men (Romans 2:15). Thus God can justly condemn those who have followed the immoral precepts of their false religion. In this case at least the desire for the knowledge of Christ AS God is absolutely necessary for salvation.

[@frankdispenza121]

The Rig Veda 🕉 says ekam sadviprah bahudha vadanti, one truth known by many names. Hinduism accepts the validity of other religions, there is no one way to “salvation”. We call it moksha, liberation from rebirth and final return to or union with God. So yeah, I like her. 😊

[@lilrobbie2k]

I'm sure this woman is a smart and nice person... but almost everything she says in this video makes very little sense to me.

[@frank_a]

What she says is that you can 'see' what a person believes or 'worships' by what he/she is acting out, not by what someone says he/she believes. And she applies that principle to religion. Her conclusion is that someone can worship/ believe in Jesus (who stands for perfect goodness in her opinion) without being aware of it.

[@OriginalBonJovi]

Eric Michel yes and no. According to the great Abrahamic traditions, as well as some philosophical schools (Aristotelianism and Neoplatonism especially), God is fundamentally simple. He has no parts, whether they be corporeal or metaphysical; his goodness is the same thing as his omnipotence, omniscience, truth, beauty, being, justice, and so on. If someone ultimately loves one of the attributes (say, the person who devotes her life to justice by hunting Nazis in Argentina), it is just another way of describing love for God. Christianity in particular teaches that Jesus is God incarnate, so whoever loves justice and beauty *implicitly* loves Jesus, albeit under a different name. Thus, it is possible for one to worship the true God and not be full aware of it. That’s the point she’s making.

[@ericmichel3857]

@@OriginalBonJovi Okay, I listened to it again and you are right. I wasn't listening closely the first time and only caught certain phrases and missed what she was really saying. I do tend to agree her perspective.

[@schuey999]

There's a difference between being interested, and making videos pretending to be interested just to get hits. The host will go on pretended he didn't get presented the truth here.. which is what he pretends he is in search of.

[@bradmodd7856]

If they are worshipping different Gods then heaven is going to be very colourful and political I guess

[@rishabhthakur8773]

God cannot be be talked about. To talk you have to made human ideas. Like, omnipresent, omnipotent, all loving, are only ideas .

[@kenanderson7769]

How do we know what Jesus said? What about all the evil in religious texts.

[@davidaustin6962]

Dude, have you ready anything Jesus said? Nothing evil. What, "Love one another" ... is that evil? Sure, throw out all the messed up stuff in the Old Testament, but don't lay that at Jesus feet, like he taught that stuff. What he said is there in the Bible, has been all along. Read it before you go around trashing it.

[@ZeeshanAkram1976]

GOD is one...the creator of universe & creator of all the laws ....👉 the existance is following

[@ZeeshanAkram1976]

@French Frys do u believe in rational thinking...?

[@ZeeshanAkram1976]

@French Frys i mean logic & reasoning.......

[@johnsmith1474]

This is what turns you people from fascinating to dangerous.

[@fabianaraya636]

@French Frys There certainly isn't any empitrical evidence, but imo there are some arguments that can be made for a necesaary ultimate "being". Whether that thing is called "god" or anything else seems irrelevant to me.

[@fabianaraya636]

@Stefano Portoghesi I'm majoring in Biology, i get the concept of evolution ;) And I am quite convinced that that's how we came to be. I'm talking about the question of metaphysical existence. Why anything at all, why like this. I don't think it's that far-fetched to postulate a sort of deistic god. Maybe look up "philosophical theism" for that one. I personally don't believe in such a being, but most other explanations like the Antrophic principle which is based on a multiverse in one way or another, require just as much faith. I also find it quite curious how many people find the idea of a creator in form of a deity laughable, but then turn around and seriously consider the idea that we are in a simulation.

[@ramaraksha01]

God is perfectly Good - that's slave talk. Master is always right. Master is perfect

[@nyworker]

I wonder if history itself confused the role of doctrine? Did doctrine exist as a hierarchial system of what bishops teach priests? The priests were meant to mediate the faith to the group? Because of the printing press and later forms of communication, did these doctrines become public and get reinterpreted?

[@Valentix4God33]

Nailed it! Great questions! Humbly I think history itself well shows the true and following "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." Matthew 7,20 What would be the will of an Omnipresent, Almighty and All Knowing God to whom (past, present, future is an Eternal Now; therefore= I AM) about the role of doctrine? Was God's will to everyone ONLY to read His Word and with the help of the Holy Spirit you can make your own interpretation and not to follow "men's doctrines"...or He established a hierarchial system of what bishops teach priests? The priests were meant to mediate the faith to the group? Checking history, we have that it was really a hardship to have hand-writings copies of any sort to reach the masses. They used to use animal' skin as "paper" among others. For example, a Bible would take to a copist up to two years of hand-writing and it was massively expensive to have one (if you were able to read) God who foresees human kind history, knew that there wouldn't be a massive system of mass printing until at least 15th century with the invention of Gutemberg's printing press, let alone it wouldn't be until way after Industrial revolution (1850) that this printing process would start printing for the mass population, and finally they would be able to buy an affordable Bible. Not to mention that most people couldn't write or read until last couple of centuries. Following "sola scriptura" doctrine it appears to be that millions of humans were doomed 'cause couldn't fullfill "that doctrine" to reinterpret the Word properly. So yes, I strongly believe that doctrine exist as a hierarchial system meant to be taught and faith is meant to be mediate by priests to the people. The other way is unbiblical and unhistorical.

[@aviraljanveja5155]

Hindu Dharmic Religions are only Scientific / Logical expounding of human thought I could ever find after going through all the major religious texts. Btw some of the the abrahamic texts were especially unreadable.

[@ramaraksha01]

Let's ask first of all why does God need to be Worshipped? Is he a King/Master/Dictator who needs constant boost to his ego? We must stoke his ego and tell him what a great guy he is? Ancient people lived under Kings/Masters/Strongmen - that was the template they used for God We must please God just as we would please our King/Master - get down on our knees, swear loyalty and obedience and beg for his mercy and hope for a reward That is the mentality that is driving all this worship talk Amazing that even though we are far more educated now, we blindly follow these primitive ideas

[@ramaraksha01]

Why should anyone worship? This comes from Master/Slave mentalities - God seen as a Master - we must pray to the right God, the right Master who will be pleased and reward us How about at your job? Do you get a promotion because of your hard work or because you polished the right shoes? Polishing the right shoes is like worshipping the right God Hard work are your Actions - are you a good person? Is the world a better place with you in it? Sadly we seem to remain stuck with primitive ideas of "grovel to this God, he will reward you" mentality

[@jackmabel6067]

A god could simply show up and reveal itself for all to see ... but does not.

[@josephirvin56]

he has revealed himself through the glory of creation. People have just chosen to look away

[@doring4579]

🙂🌎⏳🙏♥️

[@davidaustin6962]

You know all this angst could be avoided by referring to the superior creator being by using the description "Creator", instead of a title like "God", or "Father", a name like "Christ", because by definition all religions that believe in such a being defines them as a Creator. If we did that, then it's natural to say that we all believe in such a being, you can't then really say my Creator is a different being than yours (most religions think their Creator is the creator of all things). We get too caught up in the title, the name, the concept of details of the properties of this being, etc. We'll fight fewer wars if religious people can agree they all believe in the Creator, and that this Creator created everyone. Let the scholars argue about the details, the rest of us can focus on our commonalities.

[@uremove]

I really like Professor Stump’s unorthodox take on “No one comes to the father except by me”, which is so often used to justify the ridiculous belief that only Christians are ‘saved’ from eternal damnation! My problem with identifying God with ‘The Good’ is people have very diverse (and even contradicting) ideas on what ‘The Good’ is! It even changes within a culture over time. Take Nietzsche’s Master and Slave morality, or attitudes to homosexuality. I think the question poses a real problem: are different descriptions of an ineffable, transcendental ‘other’, describing the same? The word “God” is really just a placeholder. For me, what links all major religions is the search for the deepest foundation of OUR being, which is also the transcendent foundation of ALL beings. This is the basis of the Golden Rule in all the Abrahamic religions. “Atman is Brahman” or “to see yourself in all beings, and all beings in yourself” to quote the Hindu Upanishads, or in Christianity “I and the Father are One” and “Even as you do to the least of my brothers/sisters, so you do unto me”. For me therefore, it is the transpersonal nature of God, as the ground of my being, and all Being, which reconnects us with all other beings, and makes us kin, that is the essential heart of all major religions. It is from this foundation, that the ethics of ‘The Good’ follows as a natural consequence. “My religion is very simple, my religion is kindness” to quote the Dalai Lama...

[@johnsmith1474]

The Dalai Lama for the record was very well known to be an abusive control freak at the ashram he ran with an iron fist in India (see Christopher Hitchens "god Is Not Great"). He's no more kind than a reasonably well adjusted young kid from any farm town in America. And, he is a grifter, bestowing honors in exchange for $$ from cranks and celebrities in Hollywood etc. Wake up, you don't need this bullshit schema of supernatural nonsense. Just read non-fiction and learn until you are self satisfied you grasp human nature then relax and carry on with a positive life.

[@uremove]

John Smith Hitchens was an embittered alcoholic with an axe to grind about religion, so I wouldn’t be too ready to believe his every word! Quote: “What I saw was that drinking made him angry and combative and bullying, often toward people who were way out of his league”. inthesetimes.com/duly-noted/entry/12454/three_antidotes_to_hitchens_hagiography One thing Hitchens was not, was kind.

[@johnsmith1474]

@DigitalDan - These are freshman in college level questions. No there isn't any supernatural anything, the end. If you want the classic arguments for fun and to round out your intellect; look up Pascal's Wager etc. What I suggest is that you read "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens, one of the better destructions of magical thinking every written. I also recommend the audio version, he reads it in his superb English voice.

[@johnsmith1474]

@@uremove - You sound hammered, and you sound like you have not read one word Hitchens wrote. You are not qualified to wipe the rim of his toilet. And you are muted.

[@johnsmith1474]

@DigitalDan - You behave like a simpleton, you will be responded to like one. The demonstration of the absence of the supernatural is the same as for the absence of Santa Claus, for whom there is about exactly as much evidence as for gods. Or perhaps you wish to defend the existence of the jolly gift giver based on all the advertising you see the day after Thanksgiving?

[@sangs9778]

👊 (bump) Stump da truth.

[@xspotbox4400]

Some people can discover God in themselves, but than they get hurt and change their mind. I always wondered why woman are not allowed to preach and lead the church, so it's not just about divine in person but it's also a gender biology problem. Beauty is so easy to find this days, but than man get hurt and change their minds about gorgeous looking woman.

[@ramaraksha01]

The interviewer keeps talking about Judeo-Christian as if other religions or people do not matter - amazing to see such open bigotry in this day and age

[@maxnullifidian]

"Why can't I leave religion alone? Because it storms its way into my children's schools, it weasels its way into my government and its followers demand I can't do what I want with my body. Right now people are being tortured, beaten, raped and murdered in the name of religion. Is that reason enough?" - Allie Jackson

[@x2mars]

That’s some hair!

[@dennissmith1435]

A bunch of garbled pseudo-profundity.

[@frank_a]

I actually thought what she said was very down to earth wisdom, something most people would agree with: you can 'see' what someone believes or 'worships' by what he is acting out, not by what that person says he believes. She applies that principle to religion.

[@dennissmith1435]

@@frank_a It did not appear to me she answered the question. The interviewer asked whether all religions worshiped, envisioned, whatever you want to call it, the same god and if so, in what way can you make that claim. He put it in terms of universal vs particular although I understand that can be taken to refer to something else, soteriologically. She starts by saying she is a "particularist" definitely. Then she launches into an attempt to somehow try to explain or justify how one can be a particularist, in that she is a Christian, she acknowledges religions have different mutually exclusive, definitely conflicting claims, but yet there is only one God (God is either this way or that way, she asserts this) and all religions or people really and truly, whether they know it or not are really worshiping or venerating, or whatever word you want to use, the same entity. She seemed reluctant to simply state that clearly and directly and admit that the teachings of some faiths and what the peoples of those faiths, with all integrity, say they believe and the god they say they worship, are wrong and others are right, (ie her brand of Christianity). The claim that, oh, you say, you think, you worship this, but really in your heart of hearts you worship that, is, IMO ingenuous. The problem, as I see it, with Christian Philosophy is that it is simply an attempt to justify or explain what one already believes. It's the same with most "religious" philosophy, Buddhism included. It is just an attempt at a more intellectual and analytical apologetic. I'll see if I can get through it again and if I have misconstrued I'll post again. I have a degree in theology, so, this is not new to me.

[@dennissmith1435]

@@frank_a So, here is what I get form a second listen. For her god is "that which is perfectly good". She considers that to come from, I assume, the Bible and from Jesus. That could be argued, but for the sake of the video, I'll assume that is true. You can worship "that which is perfectly good" under any name, like beauty or Cthulu and you're worshiping the "true" god about which there is a "fact of the matter", that is, "perfectly good". All people who worship that which is perfectly good are essentially, in the same "tribe" and participate in the same "salvation", regardless of the guise under which, or the path by which they come to, this worship or adoration of that which is perfectly good. The comment of the interviewer is, "that's not traditional Christian doctrine, is it"? She say, she thinks that is traditional Christian doctrine. She is a particularist since she comes to the worship of that which is perfectly good through the person of Jesus, not the "facts about Jesus". She is really, what he would consider, a universalist. The answer to his question is, 1. Lets know talk about religions. 2. Lets not talk about truth claims. 3. Let's not talk about "facts about" and 4. Let's not talk about how one identifies oneself. Let's just talk about whether you adore, worship, follow "that which is perfectly good". If you do and you live consistently with what is perfectly good, then you worship, adore, follow the "true" god. It's not a terribly sophisticated or innovative view. It distills everything down to the least common denominator and makes the "fact of the matter" about "god" the creator of the universe, simply "that which is perfectly good". It seems rather like Platonism and the worship of the ideal. So, it is a way of clinging to Christianity, by radically redefining it to a lowest common denominator so that no one, no matter what their tradition or what they claim to believe, is worshiping the same god and is saved. It is a way to address Christian particularism but not exclude anyone. I don't find that particularly impressive.

[@frank_a]

@@dennissmith1435 I don't know whether what she has to say is particularly sophisticated, innovative or impressive. But I wouldn't say it's universalist. She is a particularist but in her view salvation is not connected to adherence to a particular doctrine but connected to surrender to what you could call the (particular) heart of the Christian God. She describes that heart as 'perfect goodness'. I would call it something like 'Love and Truth'. Such surrender might be more difficult (and therefore even more particular) than adherence to a particular doctrine. Calvinists would even say it requires a miracle and that such surrender is only possible through divine intervention. As I understand her, Eleonore Stump sees it as a sign of Christian salvation when someone has personal, intimate knowledge of the Christian God (that's the particular part), demonstrated by that person's love for 'perfect goodness'. But her point is also that it is possible to have such intimate, personal knowledge even without any knowledge of Christian doctrine, or even while formally adhering to another religion (that's the universalist part), which is a quite remarkable claim. But I did not hear her say that she thinks that all people in all other religions are really worshiping Jesus, without knowing it and that therefore they are all saved. As I understand her she says that some people think they know Jesus while they actually don't and vice versa.

[@joshheter1517]

If you have a substantive critique, that would be more helpful than this baseless mockery.

[@AhlusSunnahwalJamah]

I would say the creed of Nicene Trinitarianism is inherently a mathematical contradiction. The idea of God being one in three or three on one cannot be substantiated logically. If an all-powerful creative force does exist, it cannot logically be more than one. How trinitarianism got attributed to the pure teachings of Jesus (peace be upon him) is a whole another issue. For me, when I am looking to arrive at truth, I would look at who actually makes an absolutist claim about reality. So, using the Bayesian probability, I would reduce the 3000 or alleged claims of god(s) or God down to two world views - Christianity and Islam. But when I inquire further, my understanding of God that I arrived at using logic and mathematics, even before considering scriptural evidence is that God HAS to be one in an absolutist sense. Here’s how God is defined in Islam: The One and Only The Eternally Existing Independent All-Powerful Conscious Other than whatever is in creation including time and space The 112th chapter of Quran, which we accept as the last revelation to mankind, has the same attributes for God: God is one and only, the eternal refuge, he does not beget nor is he begotten, there is nothing in creation like Him. So, right off the bat, I can tell this is more logically appealing. Also, many Bible verse speak of God being one, which adds to the problem of consistency in the Bible about the claim of who God really is.

[@AhlusSunnahwalJamah]

The Rod Define “poison” and why did you interpret the Hadith the way you did?

[@Dr_MKUltra]

There are no facts in religion.

[@mveletic]

The best example of the cognitive dissonance I have ever herd of.

[@wierdpocket]

Where is the dissonance? She’s literally explaining the scriptural Christian position, namely, Jesus claims that he (a person) is salvation. This doesn’t contradict anything in Christian teaching and provides no basis for the accusation of “cognitive dissonance.”

[@brucebarber4104]

@@wierdpocket 🎯

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

Aaah a “Christian philosopher” -thank you, next.

[@jzonkel]

Misunderstanding. Don't be ignorant. Don't be closed minded. This is a good example of closed mindedness. Do not say that christians are closed minded. That is a generalization and a closed minded statement.

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

jzonkel I didn’t say Christians we’re closed minded. I implied that being Christian and being a philosopher I would find interesting or worth listening to is unlikely, so happy to pass. For me a basic step in philosophical inquiry is moving beyond religious belief. Most contemporary philosophers of note are not religious. Just as with most modern scientists. Learning how think clearly is usually the best antidote to religion.

[@jzonkel]

Julian Walker I didn't say that you said christian's are closed minded, I assumed that you would reply with that. It just seems weird to me that you would click on a video that seemed interesting and then decide not to watch it because you made an assumption about the individual who describes themselves as christian. But okay

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

jzonkel identifying as a Christian is not a vague descriptor that could mean anything. My “assumption” is more of a tautology in this case.

[@joshheter1517]

Julian Walker Speaking of being closed minded... There are plenty of prominent philosophers - at top universities, publishing in top journals - who are Christians. Even if that weren’t the case, nothing particularly interesting follows.

[@ramaraksha01]

Both the interviewer and the person he talks to are both Christians with little knowledge of any other religion - what great insight can these people bring? But that is the blindness that religion brings it seems Even educated intelligent people get brain cramps

[@auxtas]

Two atheist, or muslims or Buddhists will be accused of the same thing. So better evaluate the claims and not the persons.

[@ramaraksha01]

@@auxtas Others being the same does not mean that we should not expect any better. Actually i misjudged the lady she was not parroting the proselytizing Christian rant - she was actually saying that we should be judged by our Actions whereas this interviewer was shocking that she was saying that Try saying all Jews as being dumped into gas chambers and this guy would protest But all pagans get dumped into gas chambers in hell and this guy is ok with that Amazing how religion seems to be able to brainwash even the best of us

[@auxtas]

@@ramaraksha01 you have a strawman understanding of hell. Just search a video by Inspiringphilosophy on hell. God sends no one to hell. Look for the video inspiringphilosophy philosophy did on hell. It is human beings freely chosing not to be with God. In fact, Hitchens and Richard clearly states that if there is God, they don't want to be with him. At the end, we have the option to humbly fall before God and acknowledge our wrongs and ask for mercy. That's all matters and it starts here on earth. That's what Christianity teaches. If you ain't good with that, then grant that God does not exist. I hope everyone live like that and the unconvicted killer and rapist ends in nothingness with the loving and caring person among us.

[@brandonnaylor2735]

The Baha’i teachings revolve around the basic principle of the oneness of humanity. The Guardian of the Baha’i Faith, Shoghi Effendi, put it this way: The principle of the Oneness of Mankind-the pivot round which all the teachings of Baha’u’llah revolve … implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. - Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, pp. 42-43. I would like to explore this statement a bit and suggest that this recognition of our human unity has also been the purpose of every messenger of God since the dawn of human history. Not until now, though, has humanity been ready to explore this great principle, so central to the revelation of Baha’u’llah. If we look to the field of mathematics as an example of this oneness, we understand that the purpose underlying the study of mathematics is to apply it to the betterment and advancement of the world. How does one study mathematics? Let’s explore its development in the life of a person from the initial understanding of numbers to the advanced practice of physics. When a child is young, the first thing he or she learns is the rudimentary language of mathematics-the basic numbers and their use in counting. This main learning takes place until the age of about 5 or 6. Once a child grasps the understanding of the language of numbers and its basic structure from single digits to double digits to combinations of numbers, the child can comfortably count to one hundred and beyond. After mastering the language of numbers, the child can learn arithmetic. He or she begins with addition, then subtraction and multiplication, and finally division. Following the mastery of arithmetic, the child has the foundation that enables learning the mathematics of algebra, geometry, solid geometry and finally calculus. Once this has been accomplished, the young adult can embark on the final mission of mathematics-physics. The study of physics, whether as formulaic learning or conceptual learning, becomes a part of one’s awareness and apprehension of how the universe works. The field of mathematics is applied to every human advancement, either directly or indirectly, culminating in the role of physics in the understanding of the cosmos and the exploration of our Earth’s relationship to the vast universe. The goal of all of this learning, from numbers to advanced mathematics, has been applied physics. One could say that the goal of each teacher and educator in the process of learning in the field of mathematics has been the central principle of the significance of the role of physics to the understanding and advancement of the human experience. In a similar manner, the development and education of the human spirit occurs over time through the revelations of all of the messengers and prophets of God to humans from infancy to its present day entrance into maturity. This collective stage of spiritual maturity will bring humanity to the awareness and acceptance of its essential unity and oneness-just as all mathematics culminates in an understanding of physics and the oneness of the universe: The purpose underlying the revelation of every heavenly Book, nay, of every divinely revealed verse, is to endue all men with righteousness and understanding, so that peace and tranquillity may be firmly established amongst them. - Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 206. The Baha’i teachings say that each of the messengers of God has been sent to humankind to further its education-from our infancy in the time of Adam to the development of the family in the time of Abraham to the development of the tribe in the time of Moses, followed by the understanding of a larger community beyond family whose understanding was central to the teachings of Christ, and followed by the development of nations with the revelation of Muhammad. In this present era-which the Baha’i writings call the age of maturity-we find ourselves at the adult stage in our collective growth, the goal of all of the messengers and prophets of the past: The suckling babe passeth through various physical stages, growing and developing at every stage, until its body reacheth the age of maturity. Having arrived at this stage it acquireth the capacity to manifest spiritual and intellectual perfections. The lights of comprehension, intelligence and knowledge become perceptible in it and the powers of its soul unfold. Similarly, in the contingent world, the human species hath undergone progressive physical changes and, by a slow process, hath scaled the ladder of civilization, realizing in itself the wonders, excellencies and gifts of humanity in their most glorious form, until it gained the capacity to express the splendours of spiritual perfections and divine ideals and became capable of hearkening to the call of God. Then at last the call of the Kingdom was raised, the spiritual virtues and perfections were revealed, the Sun of Reality dawned, and the teachings of the Most Great Peace, of the oneness of the world of humanity and of the universality of men, were promoted. - Abdu’l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 285-286. A majestic and extraordinary transition in the recognition of man’s relationship with God accompanies the change in the designation of the messenger sent to humanity from God. In past revelations, these holy beings were known as prophets and messengers of God. Baha’u’llah’s teachings give us a more mature understanding of these prophets, these “Suns of Truth,” using the designation of “Manifestations of God.” In emphatic language throughout the writings of Baha’u’llah, he uplifts our recognition of these beings as the ones who manifest God’s teachings to humanity: These Suns of Truth are the universal Manifestations of God in the worlds of His attributes and names. Even as the visible sun that assisteth, as decreed by God, the true One, the Adored, in the development of all earthly things, such as the trees, the fruits, and colours thereof, the minerals of the earth, and all that may be witnessed in the world of creation, so do the divine Luminaries, by their loving care and educative influence, cause the trees of divine unity, the fruits of His oneness, the leaves of detachment, the blossoms of knowledge and certitude, and the myrtles of wisdom and utterance, to exist and be made manifest. Thus it is that through the rise of these Luminaries of God the world is made new, the waters of everlasting life stream forth, the billows of loving-kindness surge, the clouds of grace are gathered, and the breeze of bounty bloweth upon all created things. It is the warmth that these Luminaries of God generate, and the undying fires they kindle, which cause the light of the love of God to burn fiercely in the heart of humanity. - Baha’u’llah, The Book of Certitude, p. 33. With this designation, we begin to approach the recognition that all of these holy beings are both one and the same and distinct. Each human temple that the manifestation of God inhabits is different from another. Each revelation that God brings differs from another in its expression. Yet, the fundamental, underlying message is a continuous unfoldment of the same message, and the spirit animating each manifestation is identical to one another. The example of the unfoldment of the learning process in mathematics provides us a simplistic way of approaching this unapproachable theme of the oneness of all God’s manifestations. The teachings of the Baha’i Faith encourage all people to live in harmony with the followers of other religions-but more importantly, the Baha’i teachings emphatically express that there is only one religion of God progressively revealed to humanity over millennia. There are no multiple religions, just multiple concepts of the followers of past revelations. Just as there is only one field of mathematics, there have been and are many disciplines to study that one field-and our understanding and recognition unfolds as humanity unfolds: Let there be no mistake. The principle of the Oneness of Mankind-the pivot round which all the teachings of Baha’u’llah revolve -is no mere outburst of ignorant emotionalism or an expression of vague and pious hope. Its appeal is not to be merely identified with a reawakening of the spirit of brotherhood and good-will among men, nor does it aim solely at the fostering of harmonious cooperation among individual peoples and nations. Its implications are deeper, its claims greater than any which the Prophets of old were allowed to advance. Its message is applicable not only to the individual, but concerns itself primarily with the nature of those essential relationships that must bind all the states and nations as members of one human family. It does not constitute merely the enunciation of an ideal, but stands inseparably associated with an institution adequate to embody its truth, demonstrate its validity, and perpetuate its influence. It implies an organic change in the structure of present-day society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. - Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, pp. 42-43.

[@mcgee227]

yet its still bullshit like all other religions.

[@johnsmith1474]

Q. Closer to Truth: "Blah blah ... words blah blah?" A. Stump: "I make a living bullshitting Pygmies."