Eleonore Stump - How Free is God?

God is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing and all good. In addition, is God is supposed to be 'all-free'? What does it mean for God to be perfectly free? Can God do literally anything?
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[@aliwasati5802]

What an incredibly intelligent person.

[@harveyguest8473]

This interviewer is such a good listener! A good example for us all!

[@manafro2714]

Yes, Robert Lawrence Kuhn is a very learned and intelligent person. We all have a lot to learn from him and we can be grateful for his work! :)

[@jeffreyroedel9804]

I really appreciate that Eleanore only opens her eyes to the degree that is necessary and no wider.

[@BIngeilski]

If the God "knows" the future in all this possible outcomes, which depend on our free will, then the God doesn't interfere with our decisions and our free will. I kinda like this idea.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Bullshit. God created YOU. He created all the preconditions of your will. This is just a bad argument.

[@manafro2714]

If God knows the future, then there's only one possible future, and if there's only one possible future, there is no place for free will because the world is determined.

[@jedi4049]

He knows all possible outcomes. To us as an individual I believe there is free will. That is what he gave us.

[@manafro2714]

@@jedi4049 God doesn't just know all possible outcomes, he knows the actual outcome that will take place. In which case, there's no place for free will.

[@jedi4049]

@@manafro2714 But you do not. So in your life that is free will to YOU.

[@manafro2714]

@@jedi4049 If there's just one possible future, then there's no free will. I only have an illusion of free will if this is true.

[@jedi4049]

@@manafro2714 Its real to the individual. But to a transcendent being as He then He could see all possible decisions at once and their outcomes.

[@imranbutt2430]

Great response well explained - By Stump

[@jjcm3135]

Wonderful questioning wonderful reply.

[@t-herbertjeffrey8597]

Eleanore Stump is a genius

[@bestpossibleworld2091]

Dr. Stump is working off of Boethius who defined externality in his "Consolation of Philosophy" as the "simultaneously full and perfect possession of interminable life". Boethius even provided an example of how God sees events, without causing them through necessity, in his chariot rider. Of course, Augustine added to this and Aquinas fleshed it out in Western theology.

[@TheShamanicHealerGod]

Eleonore Stump is delightful.

[@aceofspades25]

ian [Manger Dormir Cuire] Delightfully evasive

[@samo4003]

She showed herself to be incapable of comprehending the point Robert was trying to make.

[@joshheter1517]

Sam O how so? Can you defend that claim?

[@samo4003]

Your question implies that you have not comprehended the point Robert was trying to make.

[@joshheter1517]

So, you don't have an answer? Got it.

[@ChronosWielder]

Free will is the ability to act according to ones nature/desires without restriction.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

How do you have nature and desires?

[@michaelhartmayer1894]

What a complicated way of explaining a simple idea. She's saying that time is like a loaf of bread. We're working through the loaf one slice at a time. God can see the whole loaf all at once. Free will is the process by which you personally make decisions, not the capacity to pivot away from your own decision making process. God's "truth" is the loaf of bread. Yours is the slice you're currently experiencing. Eleonore: "He doesn't have to plan and remember. It's all there, now, for him." Interestingly, in order for god to be a dynamic agent, there would need to be something else, not talked about in this clip. Super spacetime. A medium in which change can occur for god. God's bread slices. Super spacetime isn't really a requirement for the existence of god, if god is in fact static, but wouldn't that make god more of a breadbox and less of a baker? A fully expressed structure with no possibility for change. What a strange creature. Can something lacking the capacity to change be considered a "being" at all? Can it be "alive"? Are we?

[@sammysam2615]

As someone who believes in a higher power, it bothers me that any person can look another person in the eye and say "I know what God is, thinks, wants, can or cannot do" nobody knows that answer.

[@joshheter1517]

I think if you asked her, she'd tell you that what she says here is just the best, most logical answer to the question "What is God like?" based on the Christian Scriptures. It would be cumbersome for her to qualify each one of her claims with "It seems like..." or "I *think*..."

[@1974jrod]

Sammy Sam how do you know nobody knows that answer?

[@WienArtist]

People misunderstand the concept of our free will, confusing God's foreknowledge with somehow interfering or impeding our will to act freely. God certainly does know what we might do in any given circumstance, but we are not puppets coerced to act accordingly. For example, when you know a person extremely well, you might have a very intimate understanding of how they might act in any specific circumstance; but your knowledge of that person certainly does not impede their decision making. Just because you know how they might act or respond to the circumstance, does not force them into that action.

[@matthewphilip1977]

“Just because you know how they might act or respond to the circumstance, does not force them into that action.” It’s one thing knowing how someone MIGHT act, as you said, and another knowing how they WILL act. We often have a good idea of how someone close to us will act in a given situation but occasionally we are surprised. God is supposed to KNOW how any of us will act; he’s is supposedly never surprised. But if he knows the interviewer will have broccoli for breakfast tomorrow then the interviewer can’t not have broccoli tomorrow. Same with God knowing someone will commit a murder tomorrow.

[@WienArtist]

@@matthewphilip1977 You are correct in stating that God KNOWS how someone will act, the choices they will make, and the outcome. Yet even with that knowledge, he does not coerce anyone into doing anything, otherwise we would not be agents with free will.

[@pontifrancesco439]

I'm equally fascinated by the obvious inadequacy of her arguments and her ability in hiding it

[@joshheter1517]

bukk bekk What do you mean? Could you defend your claim?

[@pontifrancesco439]

Josh Heter which of the two?

[@joshheter1517]

bukk bekk that her arguments are inadequate.

[@pontifrancesco439]

Josh Heter Josh Heter maybe obvious what a bit too strong, anyway her argument seems something like: 1 i' m not underming your free will by watching you doing something while you do It 2 god mode of existence is outside time( whatever that means) 3 from 2( even though It doesn't follow from 2 without other assumptions) god is always watching you do something while you do It, even what is in the future for you 4 therefore, from 1 and the fact that 3 resemble 1, we shouldn't say that god is underming your free will There are many things to say, the flaw, It seems to me, is that she didn't answer what she needed to( and that is showed by the fact that her arguments are consistent whith not believing in free will). She needed to show us that god ability to watch our future is consistent with free will, she showed( or at least It was her aim)that god watching us while we act is in itself not a problem for free will. But that wasn't the worry The argument about truthmakers is: since you don't have truthmakers about future events, they don't have truth value for you. Therefore, you have free will.

[@mdbirmingham]

bukk bekk When is passion for Happiness/Love, not fueled by our choice in Hope? Selflessly, Ps. Love is a continual belief in the variable choice as Hope (not its result) for Happiness. _Human Nature Pattern (E.O Pursuit of Happiness) facebook.com/notes/eternal-optimism/eo-pursuit-of-happiness-1st-read/10159904079405720/

[@olaolu6847]

Sadly, my simple brain isn't able to fully understand Eleanor's big words but, I have come to an explanation for our freewill based on scripture that helps see how God is infinite and we are still free to a relative degree. First things first. Time isn't eternal. In fact time doesn't really exist. Time is simply a measurement of how long it takes to complete a series of actions using a chosen medium. That is to say; our chosen medium to calculate time is a clock which we all use worldwide but, I can also use another consistent medium, like my leaky tap, to measure time based on how many drops fall before I am able to finish a task. This is the reason why time is relative because it is totally dependent on where you are, the device or medium you are using to measure AND the bending of space due to mass which also affects the device's ability to move faster or slower. (Oh boy, this is getting long 😅) Okay so since we now know that time doesn't really exist and isn't eternal and is simply a measurement of how long it takes to complete an action or how long it has been since we did a thing. Then we know why God can be infinite because time doesn't exist really. He also created the means by which we measure time; check out Genesis 1:14. So if time doesn't exist and it is simply a measurement of how long it takes to do a thing, then that means that there isn't a "future" as we currently know it really, there is only what you cause to happen. So, does God know what you can do and what you cannot do? Yes, does he know what you WILL choose to do? So (interesting answer incoming) He or It, knows what the probability is of you choosing one thing versus another but He has left it in your hands to choose what will happen in your future, therefore like Schrodinger's cat, he chooses not to open the box till you open it yourself. So he doesn't know until you choose to do it. How do I know this? There are several instances of God using the probability of something happening or not happening to tell someone to do something or not to do something. Take a look at Jeremiah 26:2-3 and Exodus 13:17. In the case of the Jeremiah scripture, God tells Jeremiah to speak to Israelites and "Perhaps" they will listen. Let me ask you, how is it that a being who should know the future says "perhaps"? Shouldn't it be a yes or no? It turns out, it is a probability. Similar thing happens with the Exodus scripture, God tells Moses to change direction based on the fact that the Israelites "May" get frightened at seeing war and turn around. So he saw the high probability of them turning around and chose to take them by a different route to the promised land. Chapter 2: Everything is a Probability. There are certain things that are definite. (Ezek 21:27) That is 100% chance. And there are certain things that aren't definite (Rev 7:9). That is they are dependent on you. So what God knows is the probability of what you will choose and what will happen. And He can manipulate the probabilities if He so chooses. So TLDR; Time doesn't exist so that simplifies things. God CAN CHOOSE to know the future but doesn't always do so. What the true God knows is the probability of you doing one thing or the other and what each choice could eventually cause. Does that make sense?.... I hope it makes sense...

[@uremove]

I think Eleonore Stump’s “Gods eye view” of time is similar to our view of the past. The fact that today we know we had broccoli for breakfast yesterday, doesn’t mean it was predetermined, nor does that knowledge negate our exercise of free will at the time. Our view of the past, is like viewing the “block universe” as a whole. We see it from a privileged position. Having said all that, I find the Process Theology view of time much more exciting, whereby we (as imminent manifestations of God) create the future, which is novel & therefore unknowable even by God, because it does not yet exist. This makes us divine co-participants in the ongoing act of Creation.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

uremove Here's the thing though: There have supposedly been five mass extinction events here on this Earth. There will be a 6th, it's not a matter of 'if', but 'when'. Why would 'God' do that to 'God's' creation? Likewise, this Earth and it's Sun are not going to last for all of future eternity. This appears to be really true. Yes, we have lots of time before that occurs, but consider we have to go through probably many mass extinction events and also consider how expensive space travel has gotten just in our life time. What exactly is space travel going to cost in the next one hundred, one thousand, one million years from now? Economic inflation just might kill all life from this Earth due to nobody will be able to afford the cost to get out of this solar system. Again, why would 'God' allow that to happen to 'God's' creation? Wishful thinking is all it is by people who can't apparently face real reality. It appears we are ALL going to die one day from something, forget everything we ever knew and experienced, and will be forgotten one day in future eternity as if we never ever even existed in the first place, even by 'God', assuming 'God' to be really existent, due to future eternity being a really, really long time. Even if 'God' created a star to remember each of us by, stars don't last forever either. Or so it all currently appears.

[@Epoch11]

I agree with everything you said, but I must admit that this notion of being remembered or being significant only applies to human nature. In the wild animals mate in order to continue their existence, but they do not do it out of a need to be remembered. They do it because of a natural impulse. As thinking beings many of us want our ideas to be remembered along with who we were. This is all thinking based on limited human experience. I think if god exists then he is nothing like the god of the bible or even the god of our imaginations. We need to stop worrying about god and the "world to come" and concentrate on THIS world. If we made this a better place for all of us we would not have to look forward to an afterlife where everyone lives happily and where everything is fair. We have the resources to make life good for all, but we instead make a limited number of people VERY VERY comfortable while everyone else struggles. Why would god allow THAT?? It is another question I consider just as pertinent. The reason I feel this question exists is because we as human beings need to realize what life really is and what we need to do to create a place where all of us can enjoy living rather than a place where some , a very small number, thrive while the rest toil. There was an ant colony living peacefully when there was a huge catastrophe.........the colony was torn from the ground and destroyed. All the ants were sad and asked why did you do this to us god? God never answered and the ants moved somewhere else. The catastrophe did not stop, great machines came and there was so much noise. Four years later........in the spot of the Great Catastrophe the gods saved the life of a little girl in a hospital they had built on the ants land. The ants will never understood why this happened to them and still feel that the gods hate them or don't care about them. There is not an equivalence between ants and people, but sometimes what we understand about existence might be comparable to what an ant understands about hospitals and human beings..

[@charlesbrightman4237]

Mark G Agreed. The thing is though, for the ants and us and even 'God' or 'God's' assuming for the moment they actually exist, we appear to all be individuals in a society of individuals. What is best for an individual (and specifically which individual), may or may not be what is best for the larger society of individuals. And conversely, what is best for the larger society of individuals (and specifically which larger society of individuals) may or may not be what is best for the individual. There is a natural tension between what is best for an individual and what is best for the larger society of individuals. But yet, whether ants, people, 'God's', or whatever, we still appear to be individuals in a society of individuals. We have to try to exist somehow, someway, and it appears we do have choices, with all the consequences and ramifications, seen and unseen, of all of our collective choices. Plus whatever nature might do for us and/or to us, which for us and the ants appears that nature is going to currently kill us all in the end anyway. So, it doesn't matter what any entity chooses, at least for 'non-God's', for death appears to await us all. But still, while we exist, exactly how do we, individually and as a society of individuals, want to exist while we exist? Does the ant invade my house and then gets squished or do I or some other entity take that ant to worlds beyond this Earth to continue to survive? Choices in life, what exactly is chosen? And does it ultimately matter what I, or the ant, or 'God' or 'God's' choose anyway? Or do we, even 'God' die in the end? (Assuming 'God' actually exists right now).

[@uremove]

Charles Brightman Yes, the problem of theodicy keeps Theologians in business! However, I’d say that God isn’t Nature. Indeed it is because Nature can be cruel and capricious, and life can be nasty brutish and short that people look to an eternal transcendent ‘good’ God beyond Nature to find ultimate hope and meaning. Far from denying reality, religion seems to enable believers to face death etc. with greater equanimity. I cannot believe in a god who controls everything. For us and other animals to have a degree of free will, I think there must be some indeterminacy in the system at the fundamental level. The first 5 mass extinctions were catastrophic, but each led to a new creative chapter in evolution, and without them we wouldn’t be here. As for the 6th (the so called Anthropocene), we have some input and responsibility.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

uremove a. Modern science claims that this Earth and it's Sun will not last for literally all of future eternity. This appears to be really true. So, species from this Earth, (all known life in this entire universe at this time, although I certainly believe there are other species in existence in this universe), have to successfully get off of this Earth and out of this solar system to continue to consciously survive in this state of existence we are currently in. Modern science does not even know what actually causes 'gravity' much less how to generate artificial gravity other than large rotating space ships of which won't work for space bases on moons and planets. Low gravity conditions being very harmful to human life especially, as has been scientifically shown to be true. So, without artificial gravity of some sort for space bases on moons and planets, species from this Earth probably won't survive beyond this solar system. Add to this, space travel has gotten very expensive just in my life time, what exactly is space travel going to cost in the next one hundred, one thousand, one million years from now? Economic inflation just might kill us all as no entity will be able to afford to successfully get out of this solar system. b. Personally, I believe our solar system is being pulled toward our galactic center, although being open and honest, I have also met many people on the internet who disagree with me about this. It would seem to me that actual measurements would have to be taken over a prolonged period of time between our solar system and adjacent solar systems along our spiral arm of this galaxy to prove or disprove my, and their, belief. But we either are, or we are not. But if we are, then we would have to be able to move about this galaxy and probably have to be able to leave this galaxy one day too, otherwise we still all die one day from something and all go extinct. c. Main stream modern science claims that this universe is expanding, even speeding up as it does so, and that the universe would most likely end up in a 'big freeze'. All life in this universe that couldn't get out of this universe, (assuming it's even possible and there is a place to go to), would all die one day and go extinct. d. Main stream modern science claims that the forces of nature came into existence in the early moments of the expansion of the singularity. Now, as they also claim that the universe is still expanding, it stands to sound logic and reason that one day the forces of nature would 'evolve'. Possibly current forces of nature would change, possibly new forces of nature might come about, possibly current forces of nature would go extinct, and maybe even actually occurring in the very next moment of expansion of this universe. But, utilizing modern science's view of the forces of nature and how the forces came to be, what exactly will occur to this universe and all in it, probably 'when', not 'if', the forces of nature 'evolve'? Most probably the universe and all in it would be wiped out for all of future eternity. All life dies and goes extinct would be the most likely scenario. So, while I do try to keep an open mind, and I can show how it's possible that the forces of nature did not come into existence but are inherent in the energy unit itself, (which I currently believe to be the pulsating, swirling 'gem' photon), and that this universe might not be expanding and hence won't end in a 'big freeze', and maybe our solar system isn't being pulled toward our galactic center, it still appears to be really true that this Earth and it's Sun are not going to last for literally all of future eternity. So, when the Earth and this solar system is destroyed, including all life within it, sure something might emerge from all that debrie, but, what about us and all the Earthlings? Die and go extinct? Who's consciously left to care any of us even ever existed at all in the first place? Life itself would all be ultimately meaningless from our Earthling's perspective. But here again, especially as I don't know what I don't know, I do try to keep my mind open.

[@dandiacal]

She is absolutely right on. It is the question of being in time or out of time. A lot of theists, especially fundamentalists misunderstand that point. There is a limitation in human language to speak of now, past, future. It is not so much that it is illusory (on our part) that would be a little crude and harsh. It is just that it is insufficient, incomplete - kind of like seeing only one room in a mansion or one side of a house (and not the other sides)

[@martinzarathustra8604]

This is nonsense. "Out of time" is a meaningless concept.

[@_wayne_6565]

This woman makes perfect sense. However the issue with agnostics or atheists is that, there is no way to prove anything she is saying.

[@aiya5777]

she keeps saying tomorrow this, tomorrow that. I don't get her point, even 1mili second later is already in the future

[@DeadEndFrog]

kinda like doctor manhatten but with the addition of free will. I don't think we live in a universe with things that are uncaused. So i don't know where free will would come in, in a world with god either.

[@cowdog3940]

Obviously She must be talking with God on a daily basis...

[@bestpossibleworld2091]

Cow Dog: It would be better to say that Dr. Stump thinks daily about God. Talking to God and thinking deeply about Him are two vastly different things. She is also immersed in a very deep and rich Western theological tradition.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

I don't have 'total freewill', otherwise I would not have the terminal cancer along with other medical problems that I have. And many parents would not ever wish really bad things to happen to their children of which does appear to actually occur at times. If I had total freewill, I could generate my own forces of nature and have actual immortality too, at least if I wanted to. But then, so could everybody else then too. It just does not seem to reflect actual reality.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

Amino To assimilate with 'God' assumes a 'God' actually exists to assimilate to. Do you have any evidence, any evidence at all, that even just one 'God' actually factually exists? An inquiring mind would like to know.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

Amino Thanks, I just thought I would ask. Personally, I cannot prove 'God' actually exists but neither can I prove that 'God' does not exist. So, I try to keep my mind open concerning the existence of 'God'. Some people I come across here on the internet claim that the universe itself is evidence of 'God's existence. For me, that is only circumstantial evidence at best. There would also be circumstantial evidence to counter that circumstantial evidence like things like: a. Natural disasters on this Earth, why would 'God' do that to 'God's' creation? b. This Earth and it's Sun are not supposed to last for literally all of future eternity. Why would 'God' do that to Earthlings? c. Many things beyond this Earth are dangerous and even deadly to species from this Earth. Why would 'God' create a universe to be that way? Where I am at in my current analysis is by trying to answer the following questions: 'What exactly matters throughout all of future eternity and to whom does it eternally matter to?' 'God' alone? and/or 'Me' too? and/or 'Some other entity or entities'? OR 'To no eternally consciously existent entity at all'? Currently in the analysis: a. While 'God' might actually exist, I have yet to come across any actual evidence of 'God's' actual existence. So here again, I try to keep my mind open concerning the existence of 'God', but right now, I can't prove 'God' actually exists. So, if 'God' does not actually exist, that would rule 'God' out of the analysis. b. While I might have an actual eternal conscious existence throughout all of future eternity, it does not currently appear that I do. While modern science does not know what 'consciousness' actually is, nor how memories are stored and retrieve, nor how thoughts actually occur, they do all currently appear to be a function of our physical brain. When our physical brain dies for it's final time, we die, we forget everything we ever knew and experienced, for all of future eternity it currently appears. So, that rules me out of the analysis. (Of which, once I am ruled out of the analysis, I'm out. It doesn't matter what comes after, I won't be there). c. While 'some other entity or entities' might actually have a conscious existence throughout all of future eternity, I have not found any such evidence yet that such entities actually exist. Many people believe such entities actually exist, but nobody can come up with any evidence of their actual existence. So, I try to keep my mind open concerning their existence, but right now in the analysis, it can't be proven that they actually exist. So, they get ruled out of the analysis at this time. d. That means by deduction only one remaining answer. 'No consciously existent entity actually exists throughout all of future eternity'. Right now, the only known species to exist in this universe are right here on this Earth, (although I certainly believe other species exist in this universe). Based upon my latest analysis, species from Earth either get off of this Earth and out of this solar system one day, or they will all die and go extinct. If so, no known consciously existent entities would be left in this universe, at least not from Earth. All of life itself would be ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Life itself would all just be an illusion, an illusion that would all end one day and be forgotten, at least from the Earthling species perspective. But here again, as I don't know what I don't know, I try to keep my mind open and I ask questions in my quest for the real truth of it all. Thanks again for your response.

[@Epoch11]

If you asked an ant to explain the concept of quantum mechanics, you would not get a very satisfactory answer. This is because the ant would not even realize you were asking it something. I feel the same way about any supernatural being. If one exists it is so far beyond our scope that we just might as well live our lives in a way which assumes that god DOES NOT exist. The truth of existence is a difficult one. I personally believe that this reality is the only reality. We might get to live over and over in different versions of it, but the one main thing is that we will never ever know it. If god does exist the greatest gift we have been given is the ability to begin again fresh without the baggage of any past lives. Those who claim to know about their past existences are lying. The odds of another mind like yours being created again within a human lifespan is astronomical. It might take several universes coming into existence and going before a mind like yours once again comes into being. (But don't worry....since you won't experience time, it will literally seem quicker to you than a snap of your fingers) P.S. If you really are dying.......all I can say is I am sorry to hear it because you clearly are someone thoughtful........but at the same time I think each of us needs to make the most of our lives here on earth. Some people live for 90 years and have lived less than some 10 year olds who embrace what life offers. Live my friend, live while you can......now I just need to take my own advice, lol.

[@charlesbrightman4237]

Mark G Thank you and yes, I have been fighting advanced cancer since 2003 and should have been dead years ago, and yet here I still am, still fighting. I was given two years to live back in 2004 with a 5 % chance of living beyond two years. I guess I am beating the odds for some reason, certain factors would be the medical treatments I have received including the cancer medicines the VA is still providing. But, if something else doesn't take my life, the cancer certainly will, or so I have been told. This has also though given me the opportunity to contemplate some of the big questions in life, even wrote a manuscript back in 2012 concerning some of my thoughts at that time concerning 'God', the universe, life and eternal life. While my thoughts have progressed from what is in the manuscript, the ending currently remains the same. a. We all will die one day from something; b. We all will forget everything we ever knew and experienced; c. We all will be forgotten one day in future eternity as if we never ever existed at all in the first place. Of course, as I don't know what I don't know, I will be the first to admit that I am wrong. It's just that the current analysis would indicate otherwise. But also, a side effect of the cancer medicines have allowed clarity of my thoughts over a prolonged period of time. 'If' species get off of this Earth and out of this solar system, then species from Earth that successfully made it would continue to consciously survive. Everybody else dies and goes extinct. That is what our future beholds, and this assumes that we continue to consciously exist through various mass extinction events and that economic inflation does not make it impossible to have Earthlings successfully make it out of this solar system. Space travel has gotten very expensive just in my life time. What exactly is space travel going to cost in the next one hundred, one thousand, one million years from now? Economic inflation just might kill us all. As far as the 'ant comment', I guess it would depend upon if the ant were an AI ant or not. It would be able to explain quantum mechanics and a whole lot more. Might even be a rocket scientist trying to survive beyond this Earth and solar system.

[@waejerantat7290]

🤔🤔

[@richbuckley6917]

ALL TIME EXISTS ALL THE TIME AND WE HAVE ACCESS Cal Tec Physics Professor Emeritus, Kip Thorne, worked with the producers and directors of movie “Interstellar” with the goal of using real physics for the portrayals in the movie. Thorne’s book, “The Science of Interstellar” covers a lot of territory, warped time on a planet circling a black hole, where a 20 minute retrieval by the astronauts on the surface of the planet, cost the team additional years of time back on earth. At about 9:50+- into the video explaining kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZS5lYxjhbB7ms0 astronaut Anne Hathaway delivers an emotional explanation “time doesn’t run backwards” “Time is relative,” .... gasping back tears ...”Okay?...It can stretch and it can squeeze, ...but...it can’t run backwards....just can’t.” ANN IS SORT OF WRONG Here’s a discovery my hypnosis instructor uncovered through a technique that can be repeated. Kip Thorne ends the movie on this very point. THE POINT All time exists all the time. It doesn’t need to run backwards, because all past events are accessible everywhere. Thorne uses the physical construct of time, something our three dimensional minds might understand, called a tesseract created by advanced beings where all of time’s unique realities can be viewed at any point selected. ACCIDENTAL TIME CHANNEL My hypnosis teacher took the subject first into somnambulistic trance. Then regressed them into a past life, then through a death, then into the between life state where they were very relaxed. Then using language the hypnosis founding-instructor, Mrs Cannon, may not have realized is essentially identical to advanced remote viewing techniques, she instructed the subject to find Nostradamus. (Note, Nostradamus had first initiated prior contact). The subject cautiously would enter Nostradamus’s home, upper chamber room. There the subject would wait in invisible spirit form until Nostradamus validated the subject was not an evil or negative entity. Once validated by Nostradamus as positive, our hypnotized time traveler entered conversation and reviewed Nostradamus’s quatrains, interpreting them. This process went on for months. Cannon wrote three books reviewing her findings, concluding that her books are the most accurate and reliable on Nostradamus's quatrains. THE BIG THING IS THIS Now here’s the thing, Nostradamus was each time alive and living his life on contact. We were coming back from the future using this same four step technique hypnotically regressed. The subject passed through a death event, enter the between life state, then waited until validated by Nostradamus as a friendly, positive entity. Mrs. Cannon could always find Nostradamus but could not control which part of his life contact would be made. Young man, old man, middle age man, there was no control of when they would meet. What made Nostradamus unique, in my observation, is that he was using ancient techniques to forecast future events. He wanted to see into the future. Nostradamus was talking with beings from the future, Cannon was talking with a being from our past. Maybe there exists some governing universal law requiring the arc of time to always move forward as science often postulates, but within that arc, the evidence suggests all time exists everywhere and seems to be accessible. Furthermore, Nostradamus says the future is malleable and not fixed. He instructed to practice what today we call “the meditative effect.” Assemble large groups, the bigger the better to meditate for the future they collectively desire and it will profoundly reshape future events to manifest that very future. Kip Thorne’s tesseract is hypothetical; hypnosis is real, doable and repeatable. Because past life hypnosis in particular violates several main stream western religious (only 20%+- of Christians accept reincarnation) and social norms (occult science must only be evil), support for deep trance hypnosis occurs incrementally in spurts as rare and indomitable personalities like Mrs Cannon move the needle of progress. One such therapy session, the senior citizen in trance was suffering painful bone-on-bone knees. Her subconscious was asked to repair the knees. It (they) rebuilt the cartilage....on the spot! Obviously the woman was ecstatic and surprised when she was brought back to full consciousness relieved of pain when standing. She even began dancing in joy. The scheduled knee surgery was cancel by her flabbergasted allopathic doctor the following week. The point is, the future is malleable.

[@mehdibaghbadran3182]

That means, the god’s never, welcome to earth 🌍

[@bluecircle56]

I disagree, the whole problem here is access to information. God has the information about the future and the past. I only has the information about the past, this is due to law of physics, how my brain wired to remember past events. If my brain did not had that capability, I would not remember what happened yesterday and thus not have a "Truth maker". With the same logic, I don't know what will happen tomorrow because I don't have access to that information. But because that information exists (by assuming god has that information now), it does not mean the "truth maker" are not there, If by miracle god decides to signal me that information, I would know it and I would have "Truth maker". That leaves us with 3 options: 1. We don't have free will. (It all determined and has "Truth maker") 2. God does not know the future and thus he is not God. 3. God can not signal me that information so he can not interact with us in any way (He is only a first mover).

[@Epoch11]

It could be that he does not want to interact with us too.

[@bluecircle56]

Mark G It does not matter, I only need to assume that he can to conclude no free will.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

4. God is a meaningless concept void of anything

[@RickDelmonico]

If process could have more than one dimension things could move forward in time, backward in time, sideways in time, as well as up and down, and when we factor in things like scale and combinatorics, we might end up with some form of dynamic multi-fractal. If this fractal is pure information or consciousness, our description of it will always be incomplete and depend on our position in the structure. God might be the entirety of the information or the consciousness.

[@jonnanderson6489]

Does God have the freedom not to be?

[@aceofspades25]

jonn anderson If God is timeless then can God operate on things sequentially?

[@Epoch11]

Great question! Can god just say, "Fuck it, I'm done" and leave........just vanish completely?

[@Deuterium2H]

No, God does not have the freedom "not to be", as that would be a logical contradiction...and is by definition meaningless. God can do everything that is logically possible. As God is subsistent Being itself, or the very act of "to be" (ipsum esse subsistens), it follows that God NECESSARILY exists. In other words, He is not contingent. He cannot NOT exist. Freedom does not consist in attaining a logical, metaphysical impossibility. By His very nature, God cannot be what He is not...and His nature is Being (to be) itself.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@Deuterium2H In other words, God is a hopelessly and utterly contradictory and meaningless concept. I mean did you even think about what you are saying?

[@protonnoname9101]

She is simply playing with words and not saying anything.

[@kefrenferrer6777]

Both of them are just playing with words, because none in world can say anything certain in those subjects.

[@matthewphilip1977]

@@kefrenferrer6777 But the interviewer is at least talking sensibly as far as we can tell. Lack of certainty doesn't mean we don't have a clue.

[@suncat9]

It sounds like we have the ILLUSION of free will, but from the viewpoint of eternity, there is no free will, and that's the greater truth.

[@samo4003]

Free will is really meaningless. Why do we have to choose in the first place? It is because we have imperfect information. If we have perfect information, our "choices" would be so blatantly obvious that it is no longer a choice but an automatic response. If we have imperfect information and we are punished for making wrong choices from God's point of view, then God is either unreasonable or evil.

[@mdbirmingham]

Sam O When is passion for Happiness/Love, not fueled by our choice in Hope? Selflessly, Ps. Love is a continual belief in the variable choice as Hope (not its result) for Happiness. _Human Nature Pattern (E.O Pursuit of Happiness) facebook.com/notes/eternal-optimism/eo-pursuit-of-happiness-1st-read/10159904079405720/

[@samo4003]

I don't know what you are getting at and how your reply is relevant to my comment.

[@mdbirmingham]

Only valid Love forms a circle because although you choose the other 1st, reciprocity is never guaranteed. Ps. Love is a continual belief in the variable choice as Hope (not its result) for Happiness._Reciprocal selfless Circle (Global Love Formats) facebook.com/notes/book-readers/acx-audible-now-available/1137301952979399

[@samo4003]

I still don't see how your comments relate to my post. Explain yourself clearly or I'll ignore you.

[@mdbirmingham]

Without free-will (choice) humans would naturally or instinctively do the “right-thing” because there is no right, wrong, and no choice made for our best interests. But, most importantly, without free-will there is ultimately no choice to be made. Choice is the only copied human trait that is perfectly infinite because it always exists whether we choose to do or not. Selflessly, _Human Nature Pattern

[@bernzeppi]

Consider the impasse of a one God universe. He is all-knowing and all-powerful. He can't go anywhere since He is already everywhere. He can't do anything since the act of doing presupposes opposition. His universe is irrevocably thermodynamic having no friction by definition. So, He has to create friction: War, Fear, Sickness, Death, To keep his dying show on the road. - William S Burroughs

[@bernzeppi]

Awakened2Truth - Disciple of Jesus the Christ that’s hilarious, he was clearly an atheist. Where did you get that piece of misinformation from?

[@quantummechanist1]

I'm struggling to understand how action presupposes opposition. That statement seems to make gross assumptions. Can you please elaborate?

[@Epoch11]

It is annoying when someone speaks about god's mode of existence with such confidence. This is the sort of thinking which allows such atrocities in the world. God hid himself/herself/itself from us and the least we can do is to respect the fact that god wants us to lead our lives in a world where he has hidden himself for a reason.........either that or there is no god and there are mysteries to the universe we will never understand such as how can inanimate stuff become self aware. The world can be a wonderful place........the only thing that stands in the way of it is human nature and human arrogance.

[@SwangBley]

"God hid himself/herself/itself from us and the least we can do is to respect the fact that god wants us to lead our lives in a world where he has hidden himself for a reason.........either that or there is no god and there are mysteries to the universe we will never understand such as how can inanimate stuff become self aware. The world can be a wonderful place........the only thing that stands in the way of it is human nature and human arrogance." It is annoying when someone speaks about god's mode of existence with such confidence.

[@RickDelmonico]

Free will is inside of time. Predestination is outside of time.

[@matthewphilip1977]

What does 'outside of time' mean?

[@RickDelmonico]

@@matthewphilip1977 prediction Freewill is unpredictable for us. Predestination is predicable for God. God transcends time, we do not.

[@gotohellfast]

As I understood, Eleonore agreed, there is no free will, right?

[@smilgazolyte6696]

no. for us there is:)

[@realislam3838]

Quran has answered this controversial question; as per the Quran verses: 1-God manages all matters and nothing can be happens without God permission bearing in mind that when God allows something to happen doesn't mean that God always like it but God does allow it for specific purpose (References: There are many verses and I will just quote 3 of them: 1- "Indeed, your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne, arranging the matter [of His creation]. There is no intercessor except after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Then will you not remember?(10:3)" 2-"And to Allah belong the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth and to Him will be returned the matter, all of it, so worship Him and rely upon Him. And your Lord is not unaware of that which you do(11:123)" 3- "And what struck you on the day the two armies met was by permission of Allah that He might make evident the [true] believers(3:166)"). 2- Any calamity happens is written in God book before it happens, So and as per my understanding all options and their sequences (based on cause and effect law) are written in God book and human has the freewill to select the specific option as long as God allows it.(References: 1- "No disaster strikes upon the earth or among yourselves except that it is in a register before We bring it into being - indeed that, for Allah, is easy -(57:22)" 2- "No disaster strikes except by permission of Allah . And whoever believes in Allah - He will guide his heart. And Allah is Knowing of all things.(64:11)") 3-God has inspired the soul to the right way and to the bad way, and human has the freewill to select the way he/she wants (References: 1-"And [by] the soul and He who proportioned it(91:7)And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness(91:8)He has succeeded who purifies it(91:9)And he has failed who instills it [with corruption].(91:10)" 2-"We have certainly created man into hardship(90:4)Does he think that never will anyone overcome him?(90:5)He says, "I have spent wealth in abundance. (90:6)Does he think that no one has seen him?(90:7)Have We not made for him two eyes?(90:8)And a tongue and two lips(90:9)And have shown him the two ways?(90:10)" 4-God is a witness to everything and interfere whenever he wants.(References: 1-"Indeed, those who have believed and those who were Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Magians and those who associated with Allah - Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah is, over all things, Witness(22:17)" 2- "And if they had intended to go forth, they would have prepared for it [some] preparation. But Allah disliked their being sent, so He kept them back, and they were told, "Remain [behind] with those who remain."(9:46)"). 5-God keeps testing people to know whether they are real believers or not.( References: 1-"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?(29:2)But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars(29:3)" 2-"But We have certainly tried those before them, and Allah will surely make evident those who are truthful, and He will surely make evident the liars.(3:142)" 3-"Do you think that you will be left [as you are] while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive [for His cause] and do not take other than Allah, His Messenger and the believers as intimates? And Allah is Acquainted with what you do.(9:16)"). Based on the above points and as per my understanding maybe God writes all matters in form of probability manner (let say like "If statement" in software programming language) and gives people the free to select the options they want in order to test them bearing in mind that they can't take any action without god permit and the effect of any action is subject to God permissions, By this we can combine between freewill of people and how God manage matters and control them. This research is not complete and it's just about individual freewill and it doesn't cover other relevant verses knowing that: 1- There is no way to know how God Almighty manages the matters. 2-God is the only one who knows the keys of unseen as stated in the verse 6:59 "And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record(6:59)". 3-God drives the matters toward the destination he has written in the book;Example the fulfillment of prophecies which prophets have mentioned in the holy books like return of sons of Israel to the holy land, end of live ,second live, judgment day, heaven and hell....etc. 4- As per my understanding; freewill is limited but it's not compromised at the same time, the freewill in respect of selecting the way people want is available, but it's not extended to manage all actions and events completely and independently. please find the link of English Quran translation from where all verses been quoted: quran.com/ Please Note: The recent Islamic world miss such discussion and deep thinking which was not the case at early Islamic centuries when Muslims were more open on Quran, unfortunately the contemporary mainstream Islamic thought is based on fake Islamic resource like Hadith which contradicts Quran verses 180 degree.

[@alemartinezrojas5285]

Could you reference the specific Surahs and Ayahs, of each point.

[@realislam3838]

@@alemartinezrojas5285 Some of relevant verses have been added to the above points (please refer to comment and find the link of English Quran translation from where all verses been quoted: quran.com/ This research is not complete and it's just about individual freewill and it doesn't cover other relevant verses knowing that: 1- There is no way to know how God Almighty manages the matters. 2-God is the only one who knows the keys of unseen as stated in the verse 6:59 "And with Him are the keys of the unseen; none knows them except Him. And He knows what is on the land and in the sea. Not a leaf falls but that He knows it. And no grain is there within the darknesses of the earth and no moist or dry [thing] but that it is [written] in a clear record(6:59)". 3-God drives the matters toward the destination he has written in the book;Example the fulfillment of prophecies which prophets have mentioned in the holy books like return of sons of Israel to the holy land, end of live ,second live, judgment day, heaven and hell....etc. 4- As per my understanding; Freewill is limited but it's not compromised at the same time, the freewill in respect of selecting the way people want is available, but it's not extended to manage all actions and events completely and independently. May I know your religion? And why you are interested in getting the references?

[@amun-xoltol7853]

Unfortunately the mind is like a card magician. The card you pick out is always the card you pull out from the reshuffled deck.

[@mikebell4649]

Demonstrate a god 1st n stop adding attributes to it! How do u know its outside of time?

[@joshheter1517]

Mike Bell She's just being asked about the logical coherence / logical consequences of the concept of God of the major monotheistic religions. Asking for defense that such a being actually exists is just a different question, which many smart people have offered answers to elsewhere.

[@mikebell4649]

Josh Heter she has added attributes to a non demonstrable entity ! That is presuppositional im asking how would she know these attributes! Clever people have asserted answers but not demonstrated any thing truthful !!

[@joshheter1517]

Mike Bell you're basically saying "But the claims of the major monotheistic religions haven't been proven to be true! So, why spend your time thinking about them?" Well, that's kind of what we do in philosophy in general. Philosophical ideas generally cannot be demonstrated to be true or false, but we do our best to test them for their logical coherence and against our best intuitions. You might try to object that that's a waste of time... but the only way to defend such a view would be to introduce some philosophical assumptions, and now you're doing philosophy too. Philosophy is inescapable.

[@mikebell4649]

Josh Heter worth a discussion but existence isn’t subjective ! An all knowing god will know how to show itself , a demonstration will be the only way to show that , otherwise it’s conjecture

[@joshheter1517]

Mike Bell From the fact that God hasn't shown himself (to you, or any other people group), it doesn't follow that he doesn't exist. You are raising what is called "The Problem of Divine Hiddenness", which interesting, but has been written about by many, many thinkers. By engaging this philosophical issues, you are positing ideas which cannot be proven or demonstrated in any important sense - that's just what philosophy is. Are you guilty of just engaging in "conjecture"?

[@lycanzhp1141]

How long is a piece of string? Another person who has deeply quenched their thirst from the great fountain of cool aid...

[@joshheter1517]

Uh, what?

[@saizer8056]

I think the theological ramifications of this view would be viewed as hideous for many christians. If what she says is true, Jesus has never died on the cross, God did not create the universe, rather Jesus is still somehow dying on the cross (He must be dying very slowly or time is constantly being traversed backwards and forwards), and he is still creating the universe. The theory even seems contradictory, since it would entail Jesus experiencing being both alive and dead. In short, the woman gives an answer to the question, but her answer leads to many more problems, some of these problems being logically fatal.

[@Jessica-bp6lc]

Shadow Heart, sooooo, confusing I know, but the doctrine of the Catholic Church covers this...so yes, the death on the cross in this context IS eternal and so is the resurrection. So Jesus can die for our sins today as well as every day and when Catholics participate in the mass they are participating in the alter/sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, though it happened once, it is happening for eternity. If you are a believer, think about what the ramifications would be if Jesus’s transfiguration was actually the same moment Moses met God in the burning bush. Moses sees Jesus transfigured and the fulfillment of Gods promise at the same time the apostles see their forefather crediting Jesus’s divination. (This isn’t catholic theology, but I think it shows how God can work through time and not be bound by it).

[@User-jr7vf]

@@Jessica-bp6lc but 'Shadow hearth' is saying that Jesus would have to be literally dying right now, not metaphorically as preached by the Catholic Church (which I find beautiful within the religious doctrine)

[@Jessica-bp6lc]

User Droid, I haven’t looked it up recently, but I’m pretty sure the Catholic Church teaches the sacrifice of mass as the same sacrifice as the cross and resurrection-it IS NOT metaphorical in the realms unseen, but literally an eternal act. As God is not bound by space nor time, and Jesus is God, non of his acts would have to be bound by time how we think of it. Like I said-it is confusing, but that’s just because we have a hard time seeing the whole picture. With lots of meditation on the mysteries, things seem to be a bit clearer, but it is not easily understood by us humans, who are bound to viewing the world in only the dimensions we are accustomed to; and only in one linear direction, that we would call time

[@ob4161]

@@Jessica-bp6lc God died on the cross as a man , not as God. It's precisely _because_ he couldn't die as God, that he died as a man.

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

100% free..... with every purchase of Rice Kriispies!

[@jamesmott421]

"closer to truth" has turned into "closer to mania"

[@joshheter1517]

James Mott How so?

[@jamesmott421]

Josh Heter these interviews are straying further and further from his older ones based on science and finding clues to explain consiousness. Idk man. The talks just went so off track for me.

[@joshheter1517]

James Mott Philosophy is uniquely relevant to the question of the nature of reality in a way that the physical sciences are not.

[@jamesmott421]

Josh Heter i understand that dude. I'm just talking in referance to this channel. It started out great, but im losing my engagement in it is all. Ill still watch, but with a less heavy ear

[@joshheter1517]

James Mott Fair enough, but that's pretty far off from claiming that the channel is getting closer to "mania".

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

Kept waiting for the answer to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

[@aceofspades25]

Julian Walker The answer is to perpetually evade the question in such a way as to uphold all contradictory doctrines that Christians have been told they have to believe in.

[@Epoch11]

647, unless they are break-dancing, then the number drops to 492. I hope this has helped your existential crisis!

[@aceofspades25]

You cannot reason a person out of a position that that they weren’t reasoned into.

[@joshheter1517]

Why would you expect her to answer a completely different question?

[@JAYDUBYAH29]

because it is the same type of question: one based in a fallacious premise, that therefore can only have an answer devoid of content.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

"outside time"...lol When is that? absurd.

[@matthewmayuiers]

Martin Zarathustra outside of space time and motion, Unchanging is essentially what she’s getting at. Since there in principle could be no potential in God, he couldn’t change. Only things in motion/with potential can change. Agree with it or not, that’s pretty much what Aquinas or her would argue

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@matthewmayuiersIt is meaningless, humans cannot even think about things "outside of time". It violates the categories of perception. In the end, modern philosophers always forget their Kant.

[@matthewmayuiers]

Martin Zarathustra We can’t completely grasp what it’d be like to be out side of time, but you can deduct certain necessary principles by negations, although it’d be a limited form of knowledge, none the less still absolute in its own respect. Being outside of motion/time would entail no possibility of change, there are still metaphysical absolutes that the deepest layers of the universe must abide by, example there can be no circular squares, similar absolute principles can be deduced from change and motion. You don’t have to agree with it, but you can at least see the system they tried to build. I know my Kant, this isn’t the first time I’ve come across the arguments. It all hinges on A and B theories of time

[@martinzarathustra8604]

@@matthewmayuiers There really are no metaphysical absolutes. There are only limits on categories of reason. These are absolute only in that we cannot cross them to conceive of them. I would consider Time to be an essential category of reason that is unassailable to both reductionism and imagination. There is no way past this "fourth wall" so-to-speak. Thus putting any concept into "outside of time" is essentially just begging the question, since you can only imagine outside of time WITHIN TIME.. This is why Kant postulated the noumenal that has been greatly abused, but in essence, it is just a place holder for any conception that tries to exist "outside"' the categories of reason. No one has really gotten past Kant on this point in my opinion. Many have tried, all have failed.

[@matthewmayuiers]

Martin Zarathustra There’s no circular squares, for example the law of non contradiction could be used in multiple ways in philosophy absolutely, and could follow into metaphysical statements. Metaphysics is simply the study of being, saying there’s nothing absolute in the study of being or external reality is a bold statement and you’re destined for philosophical suicide if you follow it to its logical consequences. But anyways, God wouldn’t be absolutely detached from the process of motion/time, he just wouldn’t be influenced or conditioned by it. Not so much outside time in the paradoxical sense that you’re suggesting, in the Aristotelian view time really doesn’t exist in the broadest sense. All of Kants philosophy is restricted within Newtonian physics, you can never derive a sufficient ontology from epistemology, he fails to see that over and over. Can I send you an article that goes over specifically why I think Kant actually didn’t succeed?

[@YeldellScientificSoftware]

More religious double speak and nonsense..dancing around the question

[@joshheter1517]

YeldellScientific How so?

[@mdbirmingham]

YeldellScientific When is passion for Happiness/Love, not fueled by our choice in Hope? Selflessly, Ps. Love is a continual belief in the variable choice as Hope (not its result) for Happiness. _Human Nature Pattern (E.O Pursuit of Happiness) facebook.com/notes/eternal-optimism/eo-pursuit-of-happiness-1st-read/10159904079405720/

[@fjg2896]

Double talk. A religious philosopher ties to sell snake oil.

[@joshheter1517]

Fred Girondi How so? Could you defend that claim?

[@quantummechanist1]

If you are having the difficulty with the concept of a being outside of time, I suggest you watch the movie rendition of the book 'flatland', which is a humourous introduction to higher dimensions written by a mathematician. It is available on KZbin last time I checked.

[@senjinomukae8991]

utter rubbish.

[@1fatcat65]

Who’s on first lol