Co-Opting Opinions Without Thinking When You Don't Even Play the Game

streamed June 3, 2024
CAUGHT
From an Interview with Guilty Gear Strive Director, Akira Katano on ‪@EvoFGC‬
• The Future of GUILTY G...
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[@Kerby2000]

Stealing other people’s opinions without playing the game is the neutral skip for twitter arguments

[@joshlevinson6715]

This makes an alarming amount of sense to me so to follow up, what is the throw loop for twitter arguments?

[@thecoolkid440]

@@joshlevinson6715 using metaphors to extrapolate information beyond what the original metaphor was intended to represent

[@lot8113]

The smash brawl of the fgc if you will.

[@joshlevinson6715]

@@thecoolkid440 This sounds pretty great, although part of me was hoping it would be something that can get past blocking a user on twitter given you know...blocking.

[@rainy4902]

Gotta DI into that opinion

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

Sajam says to not co-op opinions so I will listen to his advice by not listening to his advice.

[@Dhovakim]

It kinda is a paradox I know what you mean lol

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

​@@DhovakimCatch 22

[@Iwatoda_Dorm]

I get it’s a joke but the most important part of the discussion is with co-opting opinions within different skill levels, so I hope everyone keeps that in mind

[@Dhovakim]

@@Iwatoda_Dorm for sure, and he's not saying don't listen at all he's saying to think for yourself when considering other opinions, don't just accept it uncritically

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

​@@Iwatoda_DormThat's also a bit what I mean with the comment and am sure if Sajam know my intent with taking in certain opinions am sure he'll agree. That's kinda what he's saying but I want to make it clear, taking in certain opinions is good and there's different perspectives to take it from and you have to choose what makes more sense or you have a difference in opinions. That's the way of the mind words not being able to fully get feelings across is interesting. TL:DR Basically intent and perspective matter if you want to take in a opinion.

[@Daemon_Fruit]

“Ok we have to balance our game - and also make sure we’re not balancing the imaginary game people are complaining about” - man I don’t envy that task

[@thelocs5935]

Player first games does the opposite of this 🔥

[@z1u512]

Thats why devs often balance the game around pros since they can be sure those people actually play the game, but this makes the people that dont even play the game even angrier

[@NihongoWakannai]

​@@z1u512 Balancing the game around pros can be annoying because the game is still badly balanced for 99% of the playerbase.

[@Hypanoz]

@@NihongoWakannai Fighting games should be balanced around the highest level play by all means, for some other games, yea it is rough to balance only around pro level play

[@NihongoWakannai]

@@Hypanoz You can balance around top level and lower level at the same time. They operate on different metas so making a change for the sake of lower level players could have literally zero impact on the high level meta depending on how its implemented.

[@spidersonic0110]

Sometimes it's also okay to just not have a opinion about things, especiallly things you're not familar with. It's okay to just to say "I don't know".

[@leithaziz2716]

Apparently, you're considered a "conservative" when you try to say that. (I actually am not fully knowledgable on the culture around it. It's just weird times I've seen it used as an insult)

[@njp4321]

1,000,000% this. It really feels like it being okay to simply not have an opinion, has gotten lost in the shuffle somewhere in the past decade or so. Even if you _are_ familiar with them, it's _still_ okay to not have an opinion.

[@Zedzilliot]

This is now my opinion

[@pedroscoponi4905]

@@leithaziz2716 How the hell is admitting ignorance "conservative"? I'm genuinely confused by this

[@leithaziz2716]

@@pedroscoponi4905 My understanding is that not taking a stance is considered cowardice ...even though admitting you're not an expert on the matter and don't wanna make a half-hearted statement is a form of maturity.

[@Nofixdahdress]

I also think that co-opting opinions without thinking when you don't even play the game is bad. Or good, I'll know once I watch the video and Sajam tells me what my opinion is.

[@MetroidJr1220]

Learning about fighting games comes with a free course in human behavior, psychology and sociology.

[@xxxthwagdrakexxx4672]

If you retain a semblance of sanity that is

[@MoonlitSlime]

Bold of Sajam to ask gamers to reflect on themselves when they would instead choose to quote the beast

[@Swisskies]

Sajam telling me NOT to co-opt his opinion presents me with a paradox

[@MrDoctorJudge]

It's not his opinion, it's a command >:)

[@FrankenSteinsGate]

Reminds me of before SF6 came out and some guy with an audience said "the instant rematch is bad because it's too fast" and all of a sudden you had people uncritically parroting that take, even though that is obviously the most head-ass opinion imaginable to anyone who thinks about it for half a nanosecond

[@Section8dc]

DSP the connection is too good so it made me drop inputs ahh opinion lol

[@dqflynn]

I'm gonna be real, I uh, prefer a rematch that plays the intros. I'm a sucker for em, and they're easy to skip if I'm just looking to get into the next game. Granted, I'm an Xrd player, and those intros are bomb, SF intros are typically a lil less spicy from what I've seen.

[@vichnaiev]

​@@dqflynn it's a 2 player game. Forcing the other person to waste their time just because you think it's cool is not cool.

[@Blade_the_Cat]

Oh god I remember that. It's like all those people arguing against instant rematch had a bomb implanted in their brain that'd go off if they didn't mash the rematch button

[@djbubblegum9975]

​@vichnaiev That same logic could be used in reverse, though. 2 player game, forcing someone to skip something they think is cool, is not cool. They are just as much a part of it as the person who wants to skip. I personally don't care either way, but I can't help but notice the flaw in the reasoning.

[@superbnns]

I can't wait for "that one guy who's main game is complaining on reddit" to demand Riot nerf the 2XKO assists and call them ganks

[@Nofixdahdress]

Okay, but calling assist calls "ganks" is actually sick and I'm here for it.

[@hockey1973]

The discourse around 2XKO is going to be WILD. You are going to have an entire genre of people who've never touched a FG coming into a genre where losing and losing a TON when you are new is the norm. It's going to be the wild west of opinions.

[@BudewFan_]

And they’ll be league players I feel like 2XKO is going to be unfun purely because of the super toxic league fanbase jumping in

[@abeetmameet]

I didnt think of that but youre right

[@somedude15231]

@@BudewFan_ Just play the game. Don't engage with the fanbase, except for the side that actively celebrate the game (like artists, cosplayers, con-goers, etc.) I mean this goes for everything, honestly. Even stuffs that don't seem like they would have an annoying fanbase will still have annoying fans. It's the nature of communities as a concept

[@GaiusQuintus]

I know it's fun to dunk on League players, but people are way overestimating how scrubby or toxic they're going to be. First of all, we already have scrubquotes working around the clock as is. They're not out of material or anything with the current FGC. Second, MOBAs are also extremely hardcore, knowledge-based, execution-heavy games where you are expecting to lose a lot going in while you learn. We've got way more in common with the League players than most FGC people would like to think.

[@megapussi]

​@@BudewFan_unless the game comes with a built inchat feature who cares if theres toxic people around the game lol im sure ive played against some raging asshats in sf6 too but it doesnt matter cuz we just run the set n go next

[@solarflarecj1067]

The “ *THINK* “ flashing on the screen while Sajam is explaining his opinion LMAO the irony

[@leithaziz2716]

THINK MARK THINK!

[@birdonline2751]

"when people turn green and go fast it's too strong" that is why blanka is top 1

[@Puffufuf]

“That’s my secret Captain, I’m always green”

[@JCintheBCC]

I play a green Sonic in Smash. I don’t understand what I’m doing wrong.

[@itstomis]

Hopping into the battle hub, waiting for the first person in the chat to bitch about the game, and then spectating their matches is often pretty funny. Like they talk some game about neutral or complaining about how their opponents play and then you see their gameplay and they are just mashing DI and praying.

[@kccts44]

Watching this youtuber to form my opinion on what to think about this opinion forming

[@shadycat8898]

I wish more devs were more open about this. The proliferation of creator opinions and the emphasis of gathering opinions through social media leads to so many cooked takes on games that makes them worse.

[@Raxyz_0]

It goes well beyond fighting games too. I remember one of the main criticisms to Starfield on release were... Gun designs. Like, the game has a metric fuckton of problems, but people were really zeroing in on unrealistic gun design in their sci-fi space shooter with magic rocks because one youtuber obsessed with guns made an whole-ass essay on it. When the next Bethesda game comes out I fully expect the RPG elements to still suck, but with improved weapon designs. lmao

[@shadycat8898]

@@Raxyz_0 It is rampant in MMOs. Any game with a moderately deep knowledge base is going to have people parroting creator opinions instead of really thinking for themselves on what is fun.

[@ReavenM1911A1]

"Players are amazing at pointing out problems in your game, and terrible at coming up with solutions" - Chris Wilson from GGG, creators of Path of Exile. I think every developer should follow this mindset, find the root of the problem don't listen to people 5000 word twitlonger ideas

[@baloonman5]

Mark rosewater said something similar in his "20 years, 20 lessons" presentation at gdc. I wonder if Chris got it from rosewater, or if they both just had the same realization.

[@nyrva2876]

Sorry excuse for a dev / game designer to say that. They're so far into their ideas for a game than more often than not they just lost the most basic common sense. Like Diablo 4 and what a Diablo like should be. Totally different things. They forgot what the game is all about : loot and fun. Now they're praising the game for having the most basic functionalities any arpg has, and also, one year after release...

[@Talking_Ed]

If only Chris Wilson followed his own advice 😂

[@SonicBoyster]

Everybody should also consider the inverse of this advice. If you are seeing the same opinion get thrown around in a lot of different places it should not necessarily be seen as an excuse to discredit the opinion. I see this a lot online where people believe themselves correct because they have a unique opinion. You will often see one person refer to the rest of commentators as “drones“ or some such often times I find that people, parrot advice or opinions because they struggle to communicate those ideas themselves, and not because they simply choose not to think for themselves..

[@Sporkyz74]

I think people often feel a need to parrot or repeat takes they've heard popular youtubers or top players express because the FGC has a strong tendency to respond to any complaints or takes with "git gud" or accuse people of scrubquoting, especially people who aren't playing at a level where they're considered "worthy" of having an opinion. There's a lot less social risk involved in expressing Knee's opinion on tekken 8 instead of your own, because if someone calls into question your views or your "credentials" as a player, you can always fall back on "well Knee said the game is too agressive and he's a veritable tekken legend." People should definitely form their own opinions on things and inform their takes with actual experience, but I think it's important to acknowledge the role that "lol you're only Garyu/Bushin/Tekken God/you dont even win your local" plays with regards to this phenomenon.

[@leithaziz2716]

Holy shit, you explained to me why the Souls games community is garbage as a result of tunnel-vision and gatekeeping. And I don't mean just the gameplay aspects.

[@ScaredEz]

You’re definitely right. It’s also important to contextualize opinions and avoid strongly worded statements. Regardless, if you’re an experienced player, your perspective is limited to own. For example, be careful when you say “X is a losing/winning matchup.” When you lets say, only play against 1 person who plays X character. Is that really enough experience to determine if a matchup is bad?

[@NihongoWakannai]

​@@leithaziz2716 I see more people complaining about "the souls community" than I see actual people in "the community" being wrong. It's mostly scrubs complaining that people don't agree with their scrubquotes and then yelling about "gatekeeping" like annoying children.

[@doctordice2doctordice210]

@@NihongoWakannaihaving to sit through the "it's morally wrong for games not to have an easy option slide" debate after every from soft release is so exhausting man

[@negative1n139]

I'd like to add that people also steal those opinions because they are sanctioned by a high level player. When your a casual player you really arent allowed to have an opinion without it being invalidated instantly online due to not being a pro player. Even in the best scenarios like someone playing ur main for the first time and you try to tell em whats good, they pro player = better opinion than u. So you really cant say anything unless ur a pro which means you have to steal someone else opinion...

[@muffinman2223]

This has never been a more relevant talking point for Tekken specifically. Phidx has become the voice of players of all skill levels and many of the people regurgitating his thoughts and opinions don't even understand why or how he came to those conclusions, so the convo only goes as deep as "Well Phidx said ______"

[@leithaziz2716]

I kinda blame Maximillion a bit too unfortunately, allthough to a much smaller extent.

[@shahs1221]

I think there can be a balance here. I mostly use "(insert name) said this" mostly if it's someone's knowledge I trust and/or it's with something I already agreed with anyway but just lack the words/full breakdown on said thing. I think having self awareness in the first place about "whatever I'm saying was from a third party first" is important than obviously the negative route Sajam is mentioning in this video. Like with the example of Maximilian Dood as one commented brought him up, I typically lean on his opinions for things that he obviously has way more of a deeper handle on than I do (game development is a good one) and if it's something more subjective like "is this game good or not" I always remember to caveat it with "according to Max" who most of the time will let his audience know "it's subjective and this is MY reasoning". But yeah I guess much of this is "too much work" so people just do the negative route instead and just act like they know everything when they don't 😂

[@Korosivv]

Bro this is such a real problem. NOW AS AN AXL PLAYER, I THINK HE COULD USE MORE SAUCE

[@chriswest6988]

Regarding jwong video title thing: there's a saying that long predates thumbnails and video titles "If the headline is a question, the answer is no." It's not true 100% of the time and it's not a perfect analogy to this new context, but the basic idea remains. If the writer could declare the sexy, attention-grabbing thing and be telling the truth, they would. So if they instead ask a rhetorical question...

[@GanguroKonata]

Tale as old as time, players just wait until someone says something that confirms their bias towards a game they didn't like already and say "finally, someone said it!"

[@GanguroKonata]

It's especially hard to break through it if it's a big name player saying it. Like right now Big Bird is saying grapplers shouldn't be too good because it would be unfun to fight and like...so? But it's a strangely accepted idea that I can't stand

[@blastimbre]

@@GanguroKonata I hate the idea that grapplers being good is bad for a game. Any character being dominant makes you dislike them. When any character archetype gets to their win condition it feels bad to fight. Rushdown strike throw is not somehow more fun to lose to than grappler strike throw. In the end, people just dislike being cooked. Its weird to me that Zoners and Grapplers are evil spawns of the devil while rushdown is holy and very honest. All three of them are aiming to get to their win con and twerk on your forehead.

[@Freshomania]

@@GanguroKonata its accepted because lots of people just dont like fighting grapplers, this isnt anything new. When you lose against a grappler you usually lose big, while at the same time not feeling like you win big when you beat them. The grappler archtype is just a polarizing one by design, so youll have lots of people that simply have less fun fighting them compared to other characters

[@shinobuu__]

@@GanguroKonata its hard to argue with people like this. Top player's opinions aren't always right, but these people assume since they are a top player they must be right, so they parrot whatever they say, and if you aren't also a super famous pro, then you cant tell them otherwise. They will just say "they are better than you" so until someone even better than them says something, they take that pro's words as gospel.

[@beam5655]

What's wrong with that? It's just about adding credibility to your opinion, happens all the time in any topic.

[@axeladam2435]

By the way, it's really stupid when you think about it, but it's so important to see/ interact with NUANCED opinions. Extreme opinions or behaviours are more popular, and that's tirering. So thanks to all people with a actual fonctional brain to not make the world more xtreme than it already is.

[@blummie1215]

Thanks for the opinions Sajam, I’ll be sure not to process them and instead regurgitate the information without knowing why it was said in the first place

[@NotFortheMoonay]

Moste hitting it out of the park with the thumbnail as usual

[@Adomisk1994]

I dont understand anything Sajam is talking about but I parrot it because funny hair chipotle man said it and he seems like a smart guy.

[@andyboots_acta7838]

“Mashing on words “is officially in my vernacular for life

[@GreenBro11]

I haven’t watched this video and have only read the thumbnail and I think the best thing to do is agree with Sajam without thinking!

[@NinaNinaM24]

I have to say, with thumbnails or video titles specifically, some of the responsibility has to fall on the content creator (and whoever they employ that actually make those), especially when it comes to saying things that they don't actually believe but what they think will pull in viewers. Do what you gotta do to make money, but any confusion or misunderstanding that comes from it is also on you.

[@austingoyne3039]

The problem is social media rewards popular opinions, not critical thought

[@YellowBandinero]

I'm glad they didn't go overboard with Honda nerfs and gave him some buffs as well. If they listened to reddit for one (just search his name on the subreddit,) they'd have practically deleted him from the game. I'd like to be able to play my favorite character without feeling like public enemy number one, and also get to see him in tournaments sometimes. I feel like sometimes people go to look for matchup advice and tech against the character, see the outrage and instead just feel justified, oh this character's busted so there's nothing I can do, so I won't bother learning how to fight him, and it snowballs from there. Meanwhile, some people who want to play the character drop him, because they go looking for tech and then they see the reputation he has, and think "oh, I don't want to play the character that's supposedly weak, yet that people will say I have no skill if I play."

[@UncleTonkle]

Lowkey dropped Honda previous season partly for this reason. Granted, I didn't like how much of his power budget was on headbutt/butt slam in the long run regardless, but yeah. Season 2 Honda has been a blast tho, I don't know if he has discourse still but it seems he's been adjusted really well.

[@thestorythief]

Honestly i dont understand why people say things with their FULL CHEST that they know arent true. Like, wow, youre so right. Floor 9 **is** being ruined by Wild Assault lol

[@atomu27]

I feel this comes very heavily from the sentiment that "your opinion doesn't matter if your not a top player" so people just say what top players say.

[@1wayroad935]

You want me to actually play video games to form an opinion? I don't have the money for that, man.

[@midorixiv]

at this point I wouldn't be surprised if arcsys just logs the transcripts of leffen streams and checks against them whenever someone makes a dumb balance suggestion

[@lilliangoulston5706]

I wish it was this easy, but older players give a lot of shit about personal takes on fighting games. I got told, "You need to listen to your elders on this one" in the NorCal AFGC Discord for daring to say that the Dark Age of Fighting Games is a myth outside of Capcom spaces. Most of the counterarguments were just regurgitating what's already been said before, rather than responses to my points regarding 3D fighters, Smash, the doujin scene in Japan, etc.

[@EthnicWeeb]

I'm actually interested in hearing more about this Dark Age Myth theory. Can you please elaborate?

[@Sorrelhas]

That's a cute opinion Did your streamer give it to you?

[@deadfr0g]

Coming up with your own valuation judgments and then testing them is one of the funnest parts of playing a fighting game!! Don’t rob yourself of that experience!

[@jpVari]

I'm glad they know this is super common online Edit - viewers that don't even know the game well also don't realize when a streamer is salty. I saw a streamer, annoyed by a loss, say that wake up drive reversal doesn't change anything. Then several chatters immediately said 'it's literally the exact same rps'. Literally the exact same... Nevermind all the ways it's different, without even discussing good or bad it's just mathematically different in multiple ways. I already knew this happened but it was one of the most direct examples of this I've seen, and they were just wrong. Assume most people are mostly wrong most of the time. Just keep thinking,ya know? If you have an opinion that's so strong that it ends up a dead end for thought, you're fucking up. Edit - a decade ago probably I realized people would often say they saw movies they hadn't seen, because they legit believed they had read enough discourse on the movie that they, they more or less knew what it was. As if the WATCHING of the movie wouldn't be a relevant point of experience for a film. Likewise, PLAYING the game.

[@bradcharleston]

There is also an issue of people repeating opinions from previous interations. It was especially prevalent in SFV where there were serious problems that were addressed, but the discourse was still stuck on them. This why I haven't discussed much about Strive since season 1.

[@hawk647]

I like the side mention of balancing a character that targets levels of play outside of pro play. It’s something I’ve always ignored and just assume, if a game is balanced for pro play the balancing should be fine trickling down. I wonder where most people/developers look to draw the line of balancing based on skill levels outside of pro play. I’ve always thought about ease of access but not much about balancing outside of pro play.

[@leithaziz2716]

Something Valve struggled with in TF2 is balancing around playing in pubs and balancing around competitive TF2 at the same time. They tried merging them together, and it never really worked too well. If you watch a competitive TF2 match, many weapons and items are banned, including weapons that were rebalanced with the intention to be used in competitive.

[@thegouge4284]

My go-to when I'm autopiloting in conversation is typically the, "I don't know enough to have an opinion"

[@Blustride]

But Sajam if I don’t copy someone’s opinion I won’t be able to contribute to Discourse about a game I don’t play. You can’t do that to me

[@blooddumpster3427]

you're placing a lot of faith in peoples abilities to form thoughts

[@LoudGoat74]

I appreciate and value "contrary to noise" so much, both as a philosophy, and as a succinct distillation of said philosophy.

[@wifi_888]

I love that this video applies to like every single competitive video game ever. It happens so much it's crazy.

[@suto9233]

Sajam videos got the gooner edits where they flash text on the screen to hypnotize you. I agree Sajam

[@user-cc3ef7qh1x]

If it's your first association, we are worried about you

[@inlaidterror4941]

This is a phenomenon seen in more than just fighting games. This is the same as people just googling best builds for certain characters in things like League, not understanding WHY it's the best build, just following what others have already pioneered. I don't think it will ever end, but it does become frustrating when you choose options that aren't exactly "meta" in their eyes and get flack for it because of something they've seen others post.

[@KenjiAsakura09]

"Why would you build X item? -Insert LCS player- said that that item is badddd"

[@17Master]

@@KenjiAsakura09 "Listening to a LCS player was your first mistake." Boom, got em.

[@tinfoilslacks3750]

I mean, this is WAY more of a problem in DotA than in LoL, because in DotA items are utility based, have actives, and are matchup dependent. In League not knowing why a build is the best build doesn't matter, it will work for you if you build it even if you don't know why it works because League items are just stat sticks and builds are linear and not match up dependent. The best build is just statistically mathematically the most powerful even if you can't do that math.

[@ggpt9641]

I have seen the title, watched the video, and after thinking.... I'm still co-opting Sajam's opinion about co-opting opinions without thinking about the subject.

[@HanMasho]

I've been saying for so long that critical thinking needs to start being taught in middle school. That would make this country a much less dumb place and would go a long way in solving this problem.

[@thecoolkid440]

Critical thinking is taught in middle school in the US

[@shinobuu__]

@@thecoolkid440 people just arent paying attention.

[@HanMasho]

@@thecoolkid440 It might be offered in some places, but it definitely isn't required until college. It should be mandatory that it starts being taught in middle school everywhere.

[@mechadeka]

@@thecoolkid440 If by "taught" you mean "occasionally briefly mentioned on that weird standardized test they make you take once per year".

[@ElScowCow]

Thanks Sajam! Gonna go write about why it's bad to take other people's opinions in unexamined in jwong's chat now!

[@jgray2718]

Oh my God "Mashin' on words" is a phrase I've needed forever. It's a shame it only really works with fighting game players.

[@HiResDez]

I do really think they should make drive rush punishes into counter state. I also think invincible backdash would be a great addition to negate throw loops and give players more defensive options since drive reversal still sucks.

[@soulman7675]

Content creators automatically have weight to their opinions because they have a platform. But I think in the gaming sphere it runs deeper than that. Nobody wants to get roasted for having a skill issue and we automatically discredit the opinions of those who aren't high-level players. I think high-level opinions only matter when discussing high-level play. It's okay to have mid or low-level opinion as long as you have humility in it. "I'm only a floor 8 player but I really hate fighting May. Dolphin pressure has been consistently annoying for me to deal with." is a perfectly valid opinion to have. A developer might actually find it insightful that you feel that way at your level of play. And like someone else suggested: It's okay to not have an opinion if you don't know. It's also okay to have humility in treating other people like a source, rather than adopting it as your opinion. Had a buddy of mine who knows nothing about Type Lumina ask me if certain characters were good while we were watching Combo Breaker and I just told him stuff like, "Well, I'm not sure from experience, but there are high-level players who argue P. Ciel is the best character in the game."

[@sunwiitch]

this video... it got me THINKing

[@craptastrophe521]

Most people need to learn to form their own opinions but keep an open mind. The FGC can be very punishing to dissenting opinions, especially if they're not from a top player, so the community as a whole selects for this hive-mind behavior. If players expressed their ideas with the understanding that they might be wrong or might not apply to all levels of play it might help.

[@Gamerznation704]

I appreciate this opinion alot. I've worked on smaller games before, and really see things alot different from my peers in regards to balancing and I can't really join in *discussions* because I know they are only seeing the game from one dimension. People have to understand that when the understanding of a game is not at the same level, certain moves / characters are going to seem strong and perception is going to be significantly different. If you do not look at the game as an overall package (extreme battle, world tour, people who only play versus not online, people who don't play ranked) your not looking at everything from the game.

[@epicmarschmallow5049]

Having critically engaged with Sajam's opinion on the matter I have decided to ignore it and continue mindlessly regurgitating things other people say. Thanks Sajam!

[@BluShades]

Hey, I edited that EvoFGC video. Neat.

[@kerioshin]

For a second there I thought every sentence would flash one spoken word onto the screen for the rest of the video.

[@LuckyGoku18]

Wow Sajam your opinion on this is so true, I should go let other people know about this

[@coolfish420]

I've had to learn to work on this as a Strive player. It doesn't matter if someone's a casual new fan who doesn't play much but watches streams or an old head who's salty that Strive isn't like the old games; I'm going to treat your opinion as not weighed by experience.

[@vivesthesia]

sajam teaches the fighting game community human autonomy

[@samuelmillar9918]

I felt this a lot when SF6 came out, apparently the only complaints about Modern that were allowed was how it interacted at the highest level. I was saying that as a casual unskilled player in the genre, who enjoyed pulling off motion controls more than directional supers/specials, an "issue" with modern at low ranks was how powerful the autocombo system was. I understand the combos are not optimal and there is a damage nerf on supers etc. but the difference those easy combos make is appreciable at that level and it I think a lot of veterans forget how difficult combos can be for new players, not just the motion inputs but the "strict" timing requirements. It takes time before new players can even approach B&B combos. Trying to say anything negative about the autocombo system from modern was almost always met with people ignoring what I was saying and telling me that new players focus too much on combos. Yes, a better player could defeat low rank players only using normals, that doesn't invalidate the immediate difference in damage output capability when a new player jumps into ranked and plays classic vs modern.

[@P0rk_Sinigang]

"Whenever any human being says something to you, you should think to yourself: What are they saying, and does that make sense?" Simple but sage advice.

[@Grymmhurst]

Wait I’m supposed to be thinking?

[@Y_A_Z_F]

This applies to so many things other than fighting games too.

[@2centstudios]

Someone take the audio from this and put it over The Bio O Ost - Stoning and send it to me.

[@user-mg8gc4nb5l]

This entire video is secretly about the FGC and DNF Duel

[@BStar870]

It really sucks that qualifications are demonized to the point that the general public expects every opinion to hold equal weight and value in an actual conversation about bbalance. I don't chime in and try to pass legislation on shit I don't have experience in, because it's common sense to stay in your lane.

[@NemSumeragi]

So what Katano-san is telling us is that White Wild Assault is here to stay.

[@metroidgus]

I do have an opinion that i gave not seen anywhere but grab parry and DI when using a macro should show the input as a macro rather than the light/medium/heavy punch/kick buttons int the input reader, it makes for things that to cancel from a medium punch/kick to DRC or heavies into DI to not show if there isnt a frame in between the button presses, this situation does not happen with modern where modern had the input buffer show for the macros and grab can be done with a macro or using light and medium and the buffer shows both interactions

[@keenfrizzle]

The 2XKO point at the end is valid, especially when talking about frequent patches. I think there's a good chance that people who do not play the game will repeat outdated opinions for months, without knowing how characters have been patched or how balanced the game actually is

[@vstalbain]

I think part of why people do this is because they don't trust themselves to come to conclusions on their own, and they don't want to be on the wrong side of popular opinion. Source: I've been there lots of times in fighting games and it's annoying to have people constantly tell you that you're Wrong & Dumb, lol.

[@NemSumeragi]

1:56 New opinion just dropped thank you Mr Sajam 🙏

[@brandonjones8602]

So - will it kill? Done with that, or?

[@davose8756]

Critical thinking is hard, so many individuals do not want to put in the effort of forming their own opinions

[@SBHoagie]

Love this topic something I wish was talked about more is instead of how x character is broken or bad is terrible in x or y way it was rather am I playing the character in a way that the developer intended there strengths to shine

[@ZeroEckoes]

Didnt watch the video, but I agree, thanks streamer! 👍🏾

[@cllothing]

finally i can have an opinion on opinions

[@UntitledSix]

This happens a lot for NRS games. And the infuriating part is that all the people who don't like or play the game just confirm each other's completely ridiculous bias.

[@Calhasnopals]

That’s actually part of the fun of following FG content creators. I hear something Sajam or Maximilian say and 70% of the time think “This guy doesn’t know JACK”

[@Mistouze]

LMAO my response to Strive balance discussions pretty much always end in "... but in the end, I'm a floor 10 player"

[@kimor6903]

To be fair I think that it's possible to have an opinion or understanding of high-level play without actually being able to play at that level. Not in a "my rank is way lower than it should be" way but in a "I understand the game and what should be happening but my execution/reactions/dog isn't quite there yet" way.

[@Bladebrent]

Speaking from personal experience as I've absolutely done this, I remember watching some of Max's streams on Mortal Kombat 11. I never played MK11 or wanted to play it, but this was the era where fighting games were focusing on 'grounded footsies based neutral' and 'taking away comboes and options for the sake of newcomers'. I will say I dont think is as bad as alot of big streamers made it sound but when I was trying Granblue and Blazblue and Guilty gear and seeing all the things they were taking out trying to appeal to new players, it was getting annoying. So hearing Max talk about "oh armour break moves are extremely reserved" or "the custom moveset stuff is too restrictive" was GREAT fodder to reinforce my own opinion. Like "yeah, the devs probably made the armour moves work like that cause they wanted this blah blah" or "the devs did that so people couldnt have as much fun with blah blah blah." Again, never played the game; nor really saw footage or people's opinions on it outside of Max himself, but I was nonetheless thinking about what he said and using it in my head to validate my own opinion and assumptions about "Current Fighting games" The extra irony is that I sometimes like to be a contrarian and go "okay hang on, what if we look at this from the other side" with things im curious about but apparently I will COMPLETELY listen. I will defend Mighty no. 9 and Balan Wonderworld, and go full scrubquotes on everything I hate about GBVS and why I dropped it, but streamer says things that validate my opinion? yeah lets listen to that.

[@nicorobin7762]

just because people who havent played the game just parrot that drive rush is too strong doesn’t mean it’s not true though is the problem.

[@jamgUNoh]

redditors (and jiyuna) in r/streetfighter when they repeat mago's word by word about how jamies gonna be a problem because he has a divekick and a rekka (that was his opinion in the beta but they pray for his words religiously until now)

[@eb6510]

oh god I hadn't even considered how many League players are gonna bring their wack ideas on balance to 2XKO. We're about to enter a whole new era of downplaying.

[@Giraffinator]

He's telling me to think and that makes me uncomfortable

[@huevonesunltd]

This video is basically telling people in the nicest way possible that they are brain dead lmao

[@pyrrhos8175]

This is a hard topic for devs and community both with a ton of nuance. Great video. Will say there are some things outside looking in someone who hasn't played a game *can* critique. Not to beat a successful but dying horse while it's down, but I don't need to shell 70USD to tell you MK1 is an unpolished mess. Don't need to buy cosmetics/characters to tell you they are priced too high (although SF and Tekken have been doing aight there in a greater gaming spectrum). Don't need to even pay for Multiversus and can tell you it's unfinished buggy beyond the rabbit, and significantly worse as a spectator sport. Can say that Tekken's prowess matchmaker is causing queue problems and poorer match quality. I don't need to host an event to know the job of a TO is a nightmare every time a patch drops soon before your event. Same time, I can't pitch to those companies balance changes because I either don't play WB titles or am not good enough at Tekken or SF to speak my mind on it. Don't envy devs at all for having to balance so many viewpoints many of which are red herrings or niche.

[@AnthanKrufix]

_Another_ words I've been wanting to say but didn't know how to say it video.

[@VannTango]

If E. Honda is strong at low levels, won't that just mean E. Honda players will rank up until the character is less strong? When you're new to the game, lots of characters are terrifying to fight against, if the opponent is even halfway proficient. Sure, E. Honda players get a bonus to their rank because of the choice they made on the character select screen. But does that actually affect the experience of the players they go up against?

[@zanpakutoman4225]

When forming opinions based off an expert's/vocal opinion, don't just agree with it until you've had some sort of experience with the topic. Even if all the data or examples seem reasonable and makes sense, try to see how strong/annoying it is to you as an individual. I fought plenty of Lukes and never had much issues with fighting them. But, that's because I'm a Platinum player. Platinum Lukes weren't abusing cr MP and j HP and dealing massive damage on Punish Counters. They were playing him like a normal shoto and jumping like crazy with j HK. I guess they were still throw looping, but that's all. It's okay to agree with the stuff you hear. But, don't go spreading out the information like you're a professor in the subject now. If you do play often and don't even get a chance to experience the exact thing people are complaining about, then it shouldn't be your problem.

[@invietation]

I've been playing strive potemkin in celestial since release, and from personal experience i've always thought that potemkin was pretty good, and then even when I see people play pot on the lower-mid to bottom tier I genuinely don't get pots placement, especially for season 3 patch since WWA has been terrorizing my opponents.

[@Goldenspike6]

I ❤️ half circle inputs

[@koopakape]

This is a MAJOR recurring problem online and has been for a long time. I can't stress enough how shitty it is to not even be able to play your favorite class in an MMO (Druid in WoW Classic) at least in the early days because SO MANY KIDS were watching and parroting the ideas of the big wow streamers that "druid is bad" just because it's not 100% s-tier at endgame high-end speedrun raiding, even though it's really, really good in like, literally all other content in the entire game, ESPECIALLY small group stuff, but I'd continually get snubbed for groups over and over and over because "asmon or esfand said druids are bad so they must be bad". That's just sone small example of this that personally affected me but it's definitely a huge problem in general -- go to any subreddit for any game, or even non-game media these days and you'll see how 90% of the posts are people barking the same criticisms back and forth that like one guy presented on twitch or youtube and now everyone's obsessively going by it like gospel or just generally overcriticizing / being generally insufferably entitled. I do worry about 2XKO "listening too much" to the community as well. You gotta be able to take a pair of tweezers and pull out the actual truly good feedback and ignore all the rest these days.

[@skytrot]

Maxdood’s fanbase is definitely one of them.

[@ItsPandatory]

>sajam says think for myself >my brain is incredibly smooth someone tell me what to do