Sour coffee? Never again!

[@coffeechronicler]

💧 *Discover the alchemy of coffee water:* coffeechronicler.gumroad.com/l/h20/

[@mikkisdiyobsessions3742]

I totally agree, in my home country water is pretty 'hard' and that is where I can brew my espresso with significantly lower water temps, than in places with 'soft' water. Brewing with lower water temps, in my experience, decreases the chances of getting too much 'bitterness', so I can grind a bit finer, to keep my ratios lower. Am I getting this right?

[@coffeechronicler]

​@@mikkisdiyobsessions3742 Hi Mikky great to hear from you! Just checked back in on your channel and it looks like you're still perfecting the AeroPresso, great work! With manual espresso I have always seen low temperatures as the biggest danger. I often find myself pulling longer ratios to counteract this. But by controlling the KH you get more flexibility. However, I don't think I have ever seen a truly manual espresso that was pulled "too" hot, so I think you should just keep this variable constant (max temp) and then play with yield and KH instead to get the results you want. Of course, your mileage may vary and roast also plays a role in this equation.

[@mikkisdiyobsessions3742]

@@coffeechronicler Thanks for the reply. The nice thing about the Aeropress is it's thermal stability, - or ability to not alter the temperature too much. For lighter roasts I am between 93-95, medium 90-93, dark 85-90. Love your channel by the way!

[@jamesbrightman3997]

Last year I took the plunge and started making my own water using the Rao/Perger recipe, which is roughly 80/40 (GH/KH). This has been working very well for my pour over, but then I discovered the "Holy Water" which brings KH down to like 20, and it made a big difference for one of my coffee blends that previously tasted just ok and now has some vibrancy to it. The down side is that the holy water accentuates the acid so much that my Ethiopia and Burundi pour overs were much less enjoyable. I guess this is the advantage of the Lotus drops as you can tinker with things easily. That said, the 80/40 recipe is a safe balance for most of the light roast acidic coffees I drink. Anyway, glad to see you highlight the importance of all of this Asser!

[@stiefk849]

Sooooo true, no more sourness since I have been using pure coffee water - absolute game changer!!!

[@cgirl111]

Talk to a reef tank aquarist if you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about KH and how to adjust it. If you don't know one just go to a saltwater aquarium shop and talk to the staff. While there you can pick up a KH test kit plus what you need to adjust KH.

[@coffeechronicler]

Good tip! A beer brewmaster is also a decent option :)

[@brmbltbr4]

I thought this would be just another "fix sour espresso"-video, but I had a hunch to watch it anyways and this is actually quite important! Nice!

[@dianak8098]

Fantastic info and tips! Coupled with the blog article posted on The Coffee Chronicler on Dec. 14, I am finally starting to understand how to make decent coffee water! I bought an aquarium GH/KH test kit, and have been testing my home's tap water (both hard and softened) and making bypass water with it and reverse osmosis water - to hit the "sweet spot" for my filter coffee. I was so off before I tested anything; just guessing. My coffee tastes so much better now - thank you so much, Asser!

[@jakevan1969]

Would a higher carbonate hardness also potentially lead to scale in the espresso machine?

[@kevinalvarado3724]

I had an experience a couple of years ago once when I brewed an espresso with technically the right parameters, but it was still very acidic. I was going to discard it but I was running low on coffee and I didn't have coffee yet that day. I thought "yeah, fuck it, let's americano it", I tried it and it was nice! It was lemony in a good way, with a touch of chocolate taste. I got very confused, I think now I have an explanation on why (two years late though)

[@coffeechronicler]

Exactly! That's why americanos and lungos are so forgiviging.

[@ChaosRune]

5:40 why did you make coffee cups with different grind sizes, and at the same time, change the carbonate hardness of the water of the 2 brews? Shouldn't you first test 2 cups with all the same variables but only change the grind size to see if the grind size really makes a difference? And then use different water for the same grind size?

[@fgmenth]

Thank you for justifying my madness looking at the labels of bottled water for hours on the supermarket aisle trying to find the perfect espresso water. See? I knew I wasn't crazy!

[@elev007]

Thank you for all the great content! I've ordered your course & am looking forward to it.

[@coffeechronicler]

Thanks for the support!

[@nelsonnicklebee]

Thanks so much! I learned something.

[@foobar123-f2y]

My man, THANK YOU for making a course that a) doesn't use the typical crappy web marketing tactics and B) is affordable! Preordered and looking forward to it! 🙏🙏

[@coffeechronicler]

Thanks for the kind words! I must admit I was a bit anxious to promote any e-learning programs, but I'm so thankful for the response so far.

[@fatheron]

Great, another variable to watch for

[@TylerArbour]

Very insightful and fits with my experience as well 👍, although I was and am sometimes still puzzled… I think this will help!

[@waylonwillie5736]

Thank you, this sounds like good fun, looking forward to the course!

[@Bobh8858]

Please can you link the paper that you mentioned that maps the variables to flavors

[@coffeechronicler]

You can read my take on the whole debate here: coffeechronicler.com/its-time-to-retire-the-golden-cup-standard/ and the paper is here: ift.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1750-3841.16531

[@chris9923]

Thanks. Really interesting. I'm just not sure which of the following i need to adjust to achieve the 80-90 PPM KH you are suggesting for espresso. I use a Flair 58 so don't need to worry too much about machine care, just flavour, of which I'd like to get more sweetness from my light / medium light roasts. This is my current water: Mg/litre Calcium 17 Magnesium 5 Potassium 2.5 Sodium 10 Bicarbonate 46 Sulphate 14 Nitrate 24 Chloride 17 Dry residue at 180 deg = 140 Ph at source 6.7 I'm also very tempted with the course. How much content will there be and how much will be espresso focused? Many thanks!

[@thomasmotley5449]

Btw, is sourness something you tend to experience if recently roasted beans haven't had enough time to rest? I just started ordering directly from the roaster (Counter Culture). They literally ship it the day they roast it, and I don't necessarily have the patience to wait. It's been about 10 days and the lighter roasted of two Ethiopians I ordered, "idido" from Yirgacheffe, still isn't tasting great. I perceive the issue as lack of sweetness, but maybe that's just another way to look at acidity? The slightly more developed "duromina" from Agaro is much sweeter/better at this point imo. (For what it's worth, the idido beans are also significantly smaller.)

[@coffeechronicler]

Yes, for very light roasts resting 2-3 weeks can often be necessary. But water might also be the culprit.

[@thomasmotley5449]

@@coffeechroniclerUsing 100 TDS water. Distilled water mixed 50/50 with my filtered 200 TDS tap water. I know TDS is not KH, but you suggested it could give you an idea. I guess I could buy those KH strips. Otoh, I doubt it's primarily water because I had my best coffee experience using it with Counter Culture's "jabanto," a light-roasted natural Ethiopian. Blueberry clear as day. I've since read that naturals all have this taste and that it gets boring or annoying after a while. Hard to believe. It was the first coffee I preferred drinking black.

[@aday1308]

Probably more down the rabbit whole than you wanted to go for this video (signed up for your course): One thing I've noticed with using the poplar Third Wave water product is that it makes the GH quite high but the KH stays low. Using store bought RO water with third wave, the gh is 133 while KH is 33. Definitely have some out of control sour coffees that I'm hoping to bring into check by increasing that KH. Store RO w/ Thirdwave KH -- 33 GH -- 125 TDS - 161 RO from my tap (from softened water): KH - 33 GH - 17 TDS - 18 Tap (softened): KH -- 89 GH -- 17 TDS - 81

[@coffeechronicler]

"officially" the KH of TWW should be 40, which is pretty decent for most coffees. But many people think that TWW tastes of "too much" and dilute it to half or 1/3rd strength. Even with 20 KH many modern roasts can taste good. But you also have other compositions of TWW than the "classic" profile that add more KH as far as I know. It looks like you could add some of your softened tap water to increase the KH easily.

[@classicrockonly]

This would explain why a higher alkaline water I tried once made my light roast coffee taste much more dull. Also I think to top it off, the TDS was pretty low (~50-60)

[@jarrettcorley1999]

Totally agree. I have had the thought for a few months lately that the KH of water needs to be proportional to the TDS in the brew. I have been preferring 35 KH for filter and 160 for espresso. I don’t know what my TDS actually is, but looking at typical numbers it makes sense.

[@coffeechronicler]

I think too much of the discussion has been shaped around machine health concerns rather than flavor, which is a bit unlucky.

[@jarrettcorley1999]

Benefits of using a Flair. I don’t worry about it.

[@DemeterN]

Highly recommend Empirical water as the hardness and buffer solutions come separately so you can achieve the perfect balance

[@coffeechronicler]

It seems interesting, but think it's only available for US-based folks at the moment.

[@ilfacone]

Interesting. Made me think a bit differently about extraction. Cheers!

[@EarthRyno]

I recently switched over to the 1/2 Holy Water recipe thanks to Hoon, and it has really changed my filter coffees for the better. My previous recipe had way more buffer, and it made my cups so flat and mute. Just preordered your course too, btw. Can’t wait to level up some more!

[@coffeechronicler]

That's great to hear! Holy water will be covered more in depth :)

[@smashtankful]

I tried this recipe and my coffee actually came out tasting super off. I doubled the recipe and it was better, maybe, but off in a different way. This was after a zero tds filter and I’m not sure if there is something else with my water that makes it not so good for holy water recipes. Zero TDS + third wave light roast was much better, but honestly I almost think my brita water filter with no additives is best for my setup. I have a lot of learning to do I guess

[@EarthRyno]

@@smashtankful Interesting. I also use a Zero filter for my water before adding in the minerals. Could be as simple as difference in taste perception, and there would be nothing wrong with that. Keep trying other recipes and follow the taste. Cheers!

[@smashtankful]

@@EarthRyno could be! But I had my fiancé tried it and she felt similarly. Trust me I’m probably doing something wrong and need to double check, but I’m wondering if I either have gifted tap water or it also doesn’t mesh well with the recipe, even after zero filtering. Coffee has been the biggest rabbit hole of my life

[@jojacobs4355]

So you get alkaline water and put it in your espresso machine. You then notice you have a scale filter present inside the water tank. Does that not cancel out the harder water?

[@coffeechronicler]

If you understand your water and its risk profile, then it's probably better not to use the filter. It's more aimed at general consumers, who aren't geeks :)

[@jojacobs4355]

@@coffeechronicler What I do understand is that the limestone in your water takes away flavour in general. For making tea, it is highly recommended to use filtered water. I get the chemical reaction between limestone and acidic substances. You effectively cancel out some of that flavour. You taste less. So I also understand that others prefer to get maximum flavour, and try to get less acidic properties in their beverage because it feels you are either cheating or will be missing out on some desired flavour and will never get to the "god shot" that some are striving for.

[@ZuberEUC]

My filtered tap water lands around 205 ppm tds (I assume it is calcium and magnesium). Therefore, I mix in soft water to target 75-90 ppm. Seems to work for my espresso! But now I know that if I roast some beans too light (acidic) for my taste ...I should use a harder water mix! Thanks!

[@coffeechronicler]

That's a sensible way to go about it. The problem with espresso is that you also have machine health to think about, but with manual espresso makers that's not a concern so you can max out KH and GH. For a machine with a boiler it requires a more deliberate approach.

[@ZuberEUC]

@coffeechronicler currently run the standard Breville Bambino...so it's a thermal coil with a small water tank which makes it easier to swap water profiles. I regularly descale.

[@Connor8822]

Based on the chart from UC Davis, would adding bypass water be another way to fix a sour brew? It would decrease the TDS and move it to the "sweet" section of the chart

[@coffeechronicler]

In theory yes. You get more dilution and more water also means more alkalinity. But 0.9 to 1.1 TDS is a pretty weak brew, so I'd rather fix the problem in other ways :)

[@andreamunari5800]

Thank you for the video! So if I had to buy bottled water from the supermarket, what I have to look for? Here in Italy there is the mineral content on the label, for example bicarbonate… Does the bicarbonate content of water translate to KH?, or I have to make some calculations?

[@LuisPrata]

PH above 7

[@andreamunari5800]

@@LuisPrata Ty but how much bicarbonate?

[@coffeechronicler]

@@andreamunari5800 Depends on what you want to use the water for. If you're brewing espresso and your shot is too sour, then you want to increase bicarbonate. If you're brewing pour over you want to aim much lower. Remember that you have to multiply the number with 0.82 to get the correct ppm KH as Caco3 value.

[@andreamunari5800]

@@coffeechronicler Thank you. I use the water for pour over… So if I understand it right, i have to multiply the value of the bicarbonate concentration with 0.82? Now i am using spring water that has Bicarbonate 52mg/L. I need yo multiply 52*0.82? Thank you for your help

[@coffeechronicler]

@@andreamunari5800 Yes, that's correct. That water should be quite good for pour over, but you could try to dilute it with 0 TDS water to get even more acidity/clarity if you like.

[@FrisbeeSpider]

I feel like a crazy person because whenever I have sourness in my coffee I lower the brew temperature by 2-3 degrees (C) and that gets rid of it. I use an Aeropress so definitely not the same as espresso but interesting that all the usual recommendations are for greater extraction.

[@antoinemorcos1321]

Very interesting finding about water. Will test it! Thx.

[@greenisdope]

Ordered! Finally something like this 😄👍

[@coffeechronicler]

Thanks, that's great to hear!

[@jarrettcorley1999]

Now if there was only a way to eliminate fermented flavors from naturals... Any suggestions?

[@coffeechronicler]

A coarser grind size and flat bottom brewers tend to work well with them. Certain grinders can also "clean" them up.

[@jarrettcorley1999]

Would that be something that has a big flat burr with a unimodal distribution, or hard to predict?

[@thomasmotley5449]

Hi, you mention looking at the KH of the water the roaster is using. I'm not sure I understand this. Since I don't think water is part of the roasting process, I guess you mean the water the roaster uses to brew the coffee to test the results, but how might this affect the roasting level or technique? Was it easy to get this information-- just contact them and ask?

[@coffeechronicler]

Yes, exactly: The coffee roaster engages in a feedback loop. Roast -> taste the coffee (to whatever water is available) -> make improvements. If the roaster is using water that has more buffer than you, they will most likely roast lighter because they effectively integrate the acids into the cup profile. Many roasters might only give you a TDS reading, but that can also provide you with a rough idea.

[@Jamestoddmartin]

This was such a helpful video. Does anyone know what KH Tim Wendelboe’s water has?

[@bungfai2348]

I don't know why I prefer sourness to bitterness.

[@coffeechronicler]

Genetic disposition can play a role. Some people also have a hard time eating certain veggies.

[@andrewlambert5095]

I often wonder about water temp as I have a cold brew pot that brews with no acidity or sourness due to being cold water. I might try brewing coffee with cooler water than straight off the boil 🤔🤷‍♂️

[@thomasmotley5449]

@@andrewlambert5095 Cold brew definitely *can* be sour... My understanding is that cooler water, at least in hot brew, reduces bitterness (and perhaps astringency) but not sourness. Hot water increases extraction and sour brew is generally underextracted. (Asser, correct me if I'm wrong.)

[@andrewlambert5095]

@@thomasmotley5449 I am still at beginner stages of mastering brewing so was more just observing. Thank you for the clarification 👍😉

[@philipweihrauch3442]

I've been using Volvic water so far for drip coffee. Is the KH of 74 too much for great taste?

[@coffeechronicler]

You can try cutting it down to around half by mixing with pure water. That will probably fit some roasts better.

[@3dus]

Dang… I have a ton of Seachem Equilibrium and Alkaline buffer here for my aquarium. Would it be too crazy to use it 😅?

[@coffeechronicler]

Hehe, had to look it up! It seems like the main ingredient of Equilibirum, Potassium oxide is not used in food and it's also a mix of both KH/GH so might lack the fine tuning you need. But if you can verify that it's food safe it might be a fun experiment :) The alkaline buffer apparently is baking soda so is probably okay, although it's not my favorite for taste.

[@3dus]

@@coffeechronicler hahaha Thanks a lot. Super. Just seen a review on Outin from JH but yours is acer.

[@FatNorthernBigot]

I can't go 90ppm calcium when I have an e61 group head, surely? They don't always descale well

[@coffeechronicler]

That would be dangerous. I'd trade some GH for KH. Then you can add more alkalinity safely. But you'd need to rely on other sources than just calcium.

[@FatNorthernBigot]

@@coffeechronicler your video was fascinating. I use RO and Add Magnesium and Calcium. That's it. I'm all ears if anyone has more suggestions 👍

[@coffeechronicler]

I'd add some some potassium bicarbonate or baking soda, and cut down on the calcium. The buffer will give you more balance than the GH minerals, but if you add more buffer you have to reduce some hardness, especially calcium, due to scale.

[@Wheresthesoul]

That’s a hell of a lot of KH, if you get your water recipe dialed at 70-130ppm you should never have to use more than 10-20 KH, if your recipe is off you will taste it and the only way to cover it up is with more KH. There definitely is no one size fits all, grind size and water temp is definitely very important as well. I’ve been roasting, making my own water and designing my own drippers for 15 years now chasing that perfect cup and every aspect is unfortunately very important.

[@coffeechronicler]

@@Wheresthesoul I'm talking espresso here... Filter at 10-20 KH is solid for some roasts.

[@Pawel-D]

Thanks for sharing Asser. This reminds me of the talk by Chris Hendon where he was comparing how water for filter and espresso should be different because the different volume of water means more/less buffer - kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3yngnirm9SrpK8

[@chefarj]

👍🏼

[@NexusS4GIceJelly]

Just extract evenly and good bye sour coffee

[@coffeechronicler]

Perhaps if you're drinking very developed roasts and are lucky with your tap water. For many people that's not the case.

[@NexusS4GIceJelly]

@@coffeechronicler Yes. The catch is a pour over of natural process coffee that has the American light roast profile. For Nordic roasts or Sey Coffee, I think a TWW is a must for delicious acidity

[@TECsta76]

Am a complete fan of Citrus! Would positively incorporate whatever I came across it. Usually in chillies.. ☮️

[@pietjepuk9575]

My tapwater at home first go throug a water softener with salt cristals and then ( because we had them already) it is going through a Britta carbon filter . I have never had cour bitter coffee , so 😁😁👍👍

[@pietjepuk9575]

Good God i need to go back to uni to study how to make a cup of Joe , or maybe i can put AI at work ? 🙄🙄🙄👎👎👎👎