The Consequences of the Race & IQ Discourse with Charles Murray

[@tibbar1000]

Coleman almost said we have to deny reality to live in a more reasonable world. Murray said clearly that denying reality has led us to a less reasonable world.

[@JNYC-gb1pp]

That's because Coleman benefits from the lie so he's ok with it.

[@GeneralFactCheck]

​@@JNYC-gb1ppBlacks already deal with low self esteem issues. Imagine being surrounded by pretty white people with blonde hair and blue eyes, who are more articulate than you are, and who outperform you all the time, and at one point they literally used you as farm livestock because that's all you were to them. Once IQ data starts to go mainstream, it'll get substantially more depressing for them. Feelings of inferiority are already so high and repressed by them. I understand why Coleman is sympathetic.

[@easyrawlins2392]

That's trash. Who's defining reasonable world. War is very likely in a world of finite resources. They were not too smart in that exchange.

[@lucianp2616]

No, the issue isn't that IQ is a real measure. The issue is why are you measuring it by race instead of by families? White isn't a group. Neither is black. There are low IQ people in both groups, and high IQ people in both groups. So why not just see what the high IQ and low IQ people across these groups have in common?

[@easyrawlins2392]

@@lucianp2616 tell them that

[@GamaSennin82]

This point was already made below, but I don't think whites' discomfort with interracial marriage is necessarily due to beliefs about the intelligence of Black Americans. I assume many Blacks are also uncomfortable with marrying interracially, and I know personally that this is true for many Asians and Indians. Anxieties over differing cultures and worldviews is the main issue, IMHO.

[@wp7187]

Agreed. It’s a growing pain too. If a human was brought up by wolves, such as with Mowgli in The Jungle Book, it wouldn’t be surprising if they were initially suspicious of humans who even had the same racial characteristics as them. And it also shouldn’t be surprising that the infantilisation of various racial groups by the Democrat Party makes portions of those groups more culturally entrenched and racist, especially the portions who come from broken environments, and yet…

[@bradspitt3896]

As a non-white lol, I don't have a problem with interracial marriage, but the thought of a white girl marrying me or some other minority out of some kind of condescension, social justice, savior complex, or fetish creeps me the eff out. When you hear the things they say about minorities regarding cultural and political issues, well how are they not talking about you? I get the feeling a lot of women marry them for those reasons, and honestly it makes me lose respect for their partners. Like have some self-respect bro.

[@hooligan9794]

@@bradspitt3896 Yeah, I've encountered a few white women who fetishise black men. Its definitely a bit creepy. Don't get me wrong. Anyone is free to have any dating preference they want. It's the reasons they give that just sound so bizarre and make it clear that they are making all kinds of group based assumptions and that it is not the individual in question that is of genuine interest to them.

[@bradspitt3896]

But yea survey questions are often too abstract.

[@hooligan9794]

There is a funny sex element to this question to. Ask a black man what he thinks about black men marrying white women and he most likely be fine with it. Ask him what he thinks about white men marrying black women and you will generally get a far less approving response. Ask a black woman how she feels about black men marrying white women and she will generally be far less approving than the guy was. She is likely more accepting of black women marrying white men. I'm not sure exactly why this is but I have found it to be fairly reliable in general (plenty of exceptions, of course, but the majority of cases) This cross-sex difference in view on what should be essentially the same question holds true across all races so far as I am aware. It is as though each sex has almost proprietary feelings about the opposite sex of their own race.

[@huskypup3489]

Murray is correct: If you’re going to cite group statistics to try to prove systematic racism exists, it’s perfectly valid, and even necessary, to use group statistics to refute the claim, while still arguing that we all should be treated as individuals with respect to the law. This should not be difficult to grasp.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@Tyreepsych That is not why IQ tests are administered now. You're about 100 years behind on intelligence research.

[@timothysnow5]

@Tyreepsych IQ or g score have some flaws, but it is an absolutely amazing predictor of income in 1st world countries in the 21st century. So anything that has to do with income differences is explained extremely well by IQ differences. This is an important factor to remember when trying to take into account life outcomes of different groups in places like the US. If you look at median income by group in the US and compare that to differences in IQ, then they match up just about perfectly. That doesn't mean that something like affirmative action should be completely eliminated, but we need to be honest why affirmative action exists and not blame racism for the need of an affirmative action program.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@Tyreepsych Maybe not 100 years ago, but now they are.

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@Tyreepsych No, they won't. That's what we call "pop psychology." Intelligence researchers will tell you they're the best way we have to measure intelligence if you survey them, which of course has been done.

[@acutecloudd7970]

@@MeanBeanComedy We still don't have sufficient evidence that IQ is tied in with race. What we do know is the IQ gap is shortening between whites and blacks in the US as groups attain the same healthy environments etc

[@PeteMD]

Here are some consequences: IQ of 70-84 is considered intellectually deficient. Much higher rate of poverty, criminality, etc in this range and below. 50% of black Americans score 84 or below. 116 and above is gifted. 131+ is highly gifted like scientist level IQ. There are roughly 40k black Americans with IQ 131+, and 4,800,000 white Americans with IQ 131+ 146+ is profoundly intelligent and able to provide novel thought and ideas, create advancements for society, invent things, push humanity forward. There are about 4K black Americans with 146+ IQ, and about 230k white Americans. This is why this stuff matters

[@ESCAGEDOWOODWORKING]

The categories used to group people into races are taken for granted. In the U.S., White includes all people originating from the many nations of Europe; North Africa; and the Middle East. Where does one race category start and end exactly? We know what the U.S. says on the matter. But that question about race can actually be answered by reading a bit about genetics, but I suspect some out there would find it unpalatable. There are people included in the White category today, that the average U.S. citizen may have consider suspect or unimaginable not too long ago. These categories appear to be based on social political reasons, and of course color. Categories are never questioned, that's why this stuff matters.

[@bonniespeck]

It gets worse, median IQ on most of the continent of Africa is 65-70. Most of South America is 85. But what is more important than IQ is conscientiousness, knowing right from wrong and controlling your behavior.

[@NanakiRowan]

@@bonniespeck Have you ever really looked at the origin of the numbers you cited?

[@vanillabatcave5677]

@@ESCAGEDOWOODWORKING Also many mixed people are still put under the same category as "blacks".

[@rogerboswell5483]

I had my IQ tested when I was 12 it is 130..

[@yark618]

Accepting the IQ reality is only scary if you judge people as groups

[@shunsuke8321]

@@KidTreky but Asian are smarter tho No one can deny that

[@Jewel_Screaming_Chango8387]

This thing also correlates with conflict, crime, violence, creativity , art and desire for more

[@Black-my4un]

@@shunsuke8321 No Asians are just the most disciplined group.

[@David-kq4jc]

Accepting critical theory and white privilege reality is only scary if you see people as groups.

[@Grant_writes]

@@Black-my4un THANK YOU. someone with some sense

[@aruinyoko]

Thanks Coleman for having the courage to do this interview despite cancel culture. I hope the blow back isn't too bad.

[@thomassenbart]

Charles Murray has been demonized ever since his book the Bell Curve came out. It is courageous and good to speak with him about this issue in a forthright manner.

[@Pengalen]

Oh, is that who this guy is? I bought that book in the 90's and never quite finished it. I guess I didn't get to the "objectionable" chapter, because I always wondered what people were complaining about. I should probably finish reading it.

[@kayveecreative4320]

I used to be more on the leftist side of the spectrum when it came to social issues and racial disparities until I read The Bell Curve. It was a hard, hard read and challenged a lot of my beliefs that were difficult to let go of, but I'm so much better off now and the world makes a lot more sense. It's tough love, that book.

[@ognargormsby7121]

The worst part was had people paid better attention to the divide which he was warning about then we may have lessened how bad society has fragmented. Charles was not disparaging different races in that book he was trying to present the evidence that is still unchanged today and then he was trying to make an argument about what was happening to society as it stratified into a ruling class and the ruled over masses!

[@brother1ray]

@@ognargormsby7121 It's even worse than that, Murray was proposing that ONLY once we accept the average IQ gap, (which so many are still in Denial of!), can we make provisions to try and lessen the effects of it, through education structuring, summer schools, after school club/homework club etc etc. But if we blindly deny its' existence, despite the research and empirical evidence, then we can only look at difference in outcomes and cry 'racism'! (Meantime, the Asian kids are top of the class and elite professions wondering what the Hell this 'systemic racism' is and how did it not affect them, LOL!)

[@invisiblespeedrc]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/fZi9d3qdf9F0qc0

[@MasonRoyce]

Whooo boy what a knife edge conversation. And both sides have well articulated points and both entail negative consequences for society. Good luck finding this on mainstream media.

[@jcarc5701]

You will not find this on mainstream media because they have no agenda in promoting garbage pseudoscience.

[@prybarknives]

@@jcarc5701 how is having a debate/conversation about statistical realities, promoting garbage science?

[@jcarc5701]

@@prybarknives Are you that dishonest or just obtuse?

[@douglasherron7534]

@@jcarc5701 What garbage pseudoscience are you referring to - examples and citations please?

[@jcarc5701]

@@douglasherron7534 Everything written by Charles Murray.

[@jamesspacer7994]

Yes, reality should be mainstream.

[@santacruzman]

the irony: mainstreaming is the educational term for forcing cognitively challenged students to sit in the same classes as cognitively average.

[@TrisMacLife]

Do you work for grubhub? I now know your place of employment.

[@AppleOfThineEye]

@TrisMacLife What??

[@ahmarcamacho8404]

On the point of marrying, I can't say that it is indicative of an issue, in my opinion. I'm an immigrant from South America, considered black by larger society. I'm not especially experienced (23 years old), but this is not that surprising in any other group of people. I have met all kinds of people in my short life, black Americans, various Caribbean islanders, South Koreans, Japanese, Indian, Iranian, Egyptian, United Emirates, white Americans, white Canadians, Germans, Italians, Spanish etc. Every single conversation I have had with individuals both young and old, racial homogeny seems to be the rule. A lot of these people expressed their desire for their children or themselves to marry someone of their race and ethnicity (the older folks) and the younger people usually have a preference for people that look like them, though ethnicity is less important since younger people are more integrated into larger western society. With older adults in these various groups having their own prejudices of one group or the other. Of course my account is only anecdotal, but my point is even among minorities the same sentiment is reflected and in the older population I would argue its even higher than the statistic exemplified by the political parties. What would be a good number? And is it reasonable to expect it to be even lower among white Americans? Is it really a problem when many immigrant groups and minorities are arguably just as racially prejudiced to others or sometimes even more so than white America? One thing I was surprised about when I first came to America was how appalled the general populace is at instances of white prejudice, it's almost superstitious. While in the same vein I have witnessed many different non-white groups say derogatory things about blacks, Jews, different hispanic cultures, Koreans, Indians, Philippinos etc. And it's often just as heinous and sometimes even more derogatory. The point being everyone does this, but the majority of people regardless of their racial/ethnic background are generally minimal in their prejudice especially the younger people. I do not think there is any reasonable way around this, I agree with Charles, treating people as individuals is the best and only way.

[@biggnesss7192]

Preach

[@Fee_V]

Your humility regarding your 23 yrs. is admirable. However, I think you have an old head on your shoulders. Very much enjoyed your comment. ✌️x

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

Charles doesn't want to treat people as individuals, he clearly wants to ascribe inferiority to racial groups that don't fit into the mean IQ. Read quotes from him from the past, and you'll discover that he is a racist, bad faith actor, presenting this stuff under the guise of "muh science".

[@k14pc]

well said

[@johnathanversteeg3666]

This is very true, call a Puerto Rican mexican once and you'll see it live and maybe survive to tell the tale. I did 6 years in the army with people from every country, lived in korea and japan, and each culture seems to interact differently. For example we had a guy from Nigeria in basic training, he was amazing funny, smart hard working and there were three guys from the hood and he couldnt stand them cause they kept getting us in trouble with the drill sgts. By the end of basic though all of us called each other brother cause we had to come together and rely on each other to get through it. Honestly, that's the only way I see the end of any kind of racism is through experience and teamwork.

[@katana1960]

At minute 3:00 concerning who you would want to marry a relative; 75% of black young men don't stick around to raise their children. Roughly 20% of white, Asian and Hispanic men do stick around to raise their children. This reality wasn't mentioned in the equation, as it never is, about why people feel the way they do. It matters, and to say it doesn't is a lie.

[@lucianp2616]

And what about class, culture? Some stick around, some don't, and also why look only at the men and not the women? Do women want the men to stick around? Is marriage important? These are questions which have more to do with culture than race.

[@TheOpenSociety777]

@@lucianp2616 Whether or not people get & remain married, whether they have illegitimate children or not, is correlated with IQ. IQ and race are correlated. You're not going to be able to escape race when it comes to these issues.

[@lucianp2616]

@@TheOpenSociety777 Elon Musk?

[@lucianp2616]

@@TheOpenSociety777 Whether you believe in marriage or not has nothing to do with IQ or race. That is culture and beliefs. Not everyone values traditional nuclear family or cares about marriage. Marriage is just a contract unless you're religious.

[@lucianp2616]

@@TheOpenSociety777 And also what about the women? In the deadbeat situations it's women who chose men who either can't afford to provide or who won't make good fathers. Again that has nothing to do with IQ unless you mean to imply the women choosing these men have lower IQs. Women who want to look out for themselves need to negotiate a better contract with the men they choose as sperm donors or fathers.

[@youtubeyoutube936]

I wish USA racial politics didn’t spill out to other countries

[@terrootti]

Racial politics didn't start and will not end with the US

[@youtubeyoutube936]

Bryce. Take GF and the Blm movement some people in the uk seem to think that USA history be it slavery or electoral supression in Alabama applies to Peckham London etc. It doesn’t totally different history not least as West Indian migration started in around 1950. Taking the knee which in the uk followed floyd blm, why? What’s it got to do with the uk or let alone other European countries?

[@thadoc5186]

@@brycemonkey3867 you’re so oppressed that you’re able to make comments like this on a public platform.

[@youtubeyoutube936]

The anglosphere is full of it. It will all be so different when real democracies such as China and Iran and their allies run the world

[@erikaoliver2591]

@@youtubeyoutube936 you honestly think this is just about America? That's what some might want you to believe. This isn't new and it's not exclusive to America. This is class struggle re-packaged and cleverly manipulated. It's a tale as old as modern civilization.

[@JaneyBrown]

We may not live in a reasonable world, but one thing that is clear Coleman is that you are doing your best to bring reason to it. And you are doing a damn good job. Thank you for your courage and your hard work.

[@TransparencyandMerit]

I could be wrong but I have never seen such irrational behavior coming form our establishment elites

[@PikeBishop1]

Signs of a dying empire.

[@beegee14]

Coleman is completely intellectually anemic for this point. Ignoring yucky facts is not respectable imo

[@politicaefutebolsediscutem1157]

I am a Brazilian immigrant and I would be ok with my daughter marrying a black dude in general. But, if the dude were specifically a black American I would honestly be concerned. There’s a rot within the black American community the black Americans just fail to acknowledge. In other words I would be ok with my daughter marrying a black Brazilian, a black Jamaican, a black Dominican or any black man from anywhere in the world but I would be concerned if the dude were a black American. I am speaking in general terms, of course, because it all comes down to the individual level and what family the individual was raised in. This is how black Americans are perceived by most Latinos by the way. Black Americans just don’t leave a good impression to us foreigners. Black Americans come across as very racist too.

[@ColorMatching]

As a pure European-American, I would not want a third-world latino living in my neighborhood (you probably couldn't afford it anyway). Stick with your kind.

[@vajoynus]

@@ColorMatching you're pathetic, brother.

[@anthonydhan]

@@ColorMatching In my opinion, it is always a mistake to generalize about any population of people and apply that to a specific individual. So yes that is the point that Dr. Murray is making. But what possible benefit does your comment contribute to this discourse? Let’s not make hateful comments and instead disagree respectfully.

[@ColorMatching]

@@anthonydhan Are you guys fine with him not allowing his daughter to date an African-American?

[@anthonydhan]

@@ColorMatching I think decisions about who to marry for oneself or for one’s progeny should be left to each person. The reasons for their decision may or may not be racist. In any case who is harmed? If they deny themselves or their progeny advantageous marriages as the result of racial prejudice, they only harm themselves. I was objecting more to the tone, and what seemed to me, a hate-filled response. This is clearly a sensitive area, and wouldn’t it be better to encourage more discourse that can result in enlightenment of more folks if we don’t attack people for their honest opinions? I think it’s ok to disagree. I only wish that we do so with more civility.

[@jakobfunk3970]

An average European can't outrun an African Ethiopian - an average Ethiopian can't outsmart a European.

[@NanakiRowan]

In science and philosophy, a just-so story is an untestable narrative explanation for a cultural practice, a biological trait, or behavior of humans or other animals. The pejorative nature of the expression is an implicit criticism that reminds the listener of the fictional and unprovable nature of such an explanation. Such tales are common in folklore genres like mythology.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

The average European has an IQ about 30 points than the typical Ethiopean. Just a fact.

[@TristanM2013]

@@NanakiRowan That is a great explanation of a fallacy that I am sure will whiz right past that guys head

[@lucianp2616]

An average American black or white can't outrun an average Ethiopian. Genes do play a role in muscle fiber type. But genes aren't based on race. The key is Ethiopian genes, not black genes, not white genes, not "European" genes, but the Ethiopian gene for type 1 muscle fibers. And this is a gene not all or even most black people get.

[@basylpeterjones]

I've seen that analogy lots of times and it's rubbish. An average white European would easily beat an average black East African in a sprint. East Africa produces great distance, and middle-distance, to a lesser extent, runners because of high ratios of slow-twitch muscle fibre. You're trying to make a white:black comparison and failing.

[@WhtetstoneFlunky]

The general problem is; multi-cultural societies are dysfunctional. In other words, cultural diversity is decided not a strength. Cultural diversity pits one culture against another in a never-ending and impossible battle to attain financial equality.

[@jonothandoeser]

Except that Egypt was a multi-cultural society and so was Rome. Anyone in the Roman Empire who had the money could buy citizenship (any many did). The Roman Legions were mixed with mercenary Goths and other Germanic soldiers. Most people who say "multi-cultural societies are dysfunctional" know very little about actual history.

[@WhtetstoneFlunky]

@@jonothandoeser I do not know why you think your are describing a society that could be termed as "functional" by the standards of modern societies.

[@jonothandoeser]

@@WhtetstoneFlunky Actually, I'm not talking about "societies", I'm talking about some of the longest-lasting Civilizations in the West. In fact, these were the Civilizations that later Civilizations copied and borrowed from, because they were so successful.

[@Antony-18]

@@jonothandoeser Instead of criticizing her comment you should learn a little bit about history yourself. You referring too, the Roman Empire when it was in decline that we see multiculturalism. Ancient Egypt like wise , although the fall of Egypt is officially dated as from the end of the 25th Dynasty, in reality the true ancient Egyptians had vanished more than 200 years earlier. So basically multiculturalism is a downfall of a foundation based on its founding roots.

[@WhtetstoneFlunky]

@@jonothandoeser Okay, I'll use the term "civilizations". In the Roman Empire different ethnic and religious demographics were treated differently. That is what I mean by "dysfunctional by modern standards". What was good then will not fly now. By my definition, America was dysfunctional in 1800 due to slavery. There were different ethnic demographics treated differently even though it was largely accepted then and therefore few protesters in the streets.

[@stevelawrence5123]

Coleman, why do you interpret a desire to have grand children that look like you to be racist? Racism is the assertion that one race is inherently superior to another. Having a preference that your children look like you and can fit into your culture is not an assertion of superiority, it's a preference.

[@stevenlight5006]

Wow u rite

[@paulelago9453]

It's not only a preference, it might be genetical to want your offsprings to look like you.

[@MelGibsonFan]

Why does it matter that grand children “look like you”?

[@cauliflowersupremacist8789]

@@MelGibsonFan Because it's normal and healthy behaviour. Humans, like all species are programmed to pass on their own genes and to have a fundamental distrust of "the other". Nothing to vilify about it.

[@MelGibsonFan]

@@cauliflowersupremacist8789 That doesn’t answer the question though. You’re kind of just asserting that it’s “normal” and “healthy” then trampling all over the is/ought distinction. Lol. Not even gonna get into the thinly veiled shit in your avatar.

[@darryledenmark2075]

I fell in love with a black girl in high school. My father really liked her.Her father had a fit and made us break up.So ,it doesn't matter what color you are.People are people.

[@jeanpaulgartier3404]

He did you a favor

[@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986]

@@jeanpaulgartier3404 how could breaking up happy people and making the world a little more miserable possibly be a good thing

[@raderT90]

@@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986 Mixed race kids have issues with identity. To reduce this issue, people should stick to their own. Not saying it can be reduced 100 percent, but it is something to keep in mind. These culture clashes and identity clashes cause conflict which sows distrust and fractures the family. We need stronger family units and that can't happen when different racial groups inevitably conflict with one another, particularly within racially mixed family relations.

[@alongsleep]

@@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986 Liberal silliness. Identity is important.

[@tanktoptitan7280]

@@raderT90 bro humans are humans look at India they have a lot of problems because they have no race diversity also ur not 100% one race I mean that because not all white ppl are not the same soo ur probably not 100% one race check ur dna Ik ur not 100% German or French

[@jensphiliphohmann1876]

As there is a "black" culture (which, BTW, comes from parts of 17th century England and has nothing to do with the African origin of black Americans) which punishes intelligent black kids for "acting white", this explains quite a lot of the discrepancy, if not all of it. It were funny if it weren't so sad that so-called anti-racists promote this culture as "authentic", keeping young black people down in the process. From a white supremacy perspective, this is genius. Instead of making segregation laws black people will resist, promote a culture which makes the segregation automatically.

[@Mint1Julep_]

@@jensphiliphohmann1876 people self-segregate regardless of race.

[@commonsense862]

It’s IQ that matters. Specifically, G Which is General Intelligence. Blacks are two standard deviations away from whites. No way around it.

[@DTreatz]

@@Mint1Julep_ yes but the factors that matter most _aren't_ race, so much as they are intellect, which turns into class because SES rich whites and blacks would rather associate with each other than their respective races.

[@smileandwave782]

Watch Jared Taylor about race and IQ. If people are different based on genetics and certain demographics are prone to diseases at a higher rate than others, then why is it ludacris to believe that genetics, race, and IQ are not linked? For example, Asians appear advanced in Mathematics and technology, hence Asia markets dominate the global technology market. Why is Africa a mess?

[@Kevin-kj5th]

Terrible argument. Missing so many variables

[@LeonardTavast]

If skin cells has different selection pressures on different continents, surely nerve cells can have different selective pressures. Coleman Hughes an outlier in his cohort and unfortunately he's not representative of the average or we would not have the discrepancy we see today. Objective fact has to be the baseline for the debate or else we will have a dissonance between wishful thinking and objective reality. It's from this dissonance that wokeness find its nourishment as it seeks to explain the gap by introducing ideas such as "structural racism" to explain why there's a difference in outcome, given a presumption of equal input. The next generation of antiracism has to confront the fact that there's an unequal input because of historical evolution pressures and work from there, without factually false presumptions or to rely on social constructivism to wish away (individual and group) human variance. We also have to apply Hume's Law and stop conflating intelligence (is) with human dignity (ought). As long as everyone contributes to society it's secondary if they contribute as street sweepers or as software engineers.

[@luke5058]

@@LeonardTavast this is so painfully obvious I don’t see how people reject it. It’s the truth, it’s evident and manifests in every way possible. People insert their own wishful thinking and ignore what stands before them.

[@TheOpenSociety777]

​@@Kevin-kj5thThere is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so.

[@lucianp2616]

Because race isn't based on genetics. People categorized as white don't share a lot of genetics. You share a phenotype, not genetics. People categorized as black also don't share a lot of genetics. Again it's phenotype not genetics which is shared. IQ can be genetic, and also be independent of phenotype. So why are we looking at phenotype when asking questions about IQ? We aren't looking at genetics. You aren't asking these test takers to take a genetic test, and showing that different genetic mixes are getting different scores. For that reason it's unscientific because I don't even know the genes of "average white" or "average black" in those statistics. Just seeing the responses to this video shows me most people aren't very scientific and putting this mainstream is only promoting more ignorance on genetics.

[@robertprice9052]

The reality is that America is not systemically racist, and the lower numbers of achievement and perseverance in career fields are more complex than simply a racial issue. There is a push to get more females into STEM fields. What the studies found is that the lower numbers in STEM fields didn't come from lower opportunities or discriminatory practices it was simply preferences. So that comes back to individual preferences. Affirmative action has been proven to push black kids out of engineering majors by pushing the students into tier 1 colleges like MIT instead of a state college with a good engineering program. The biggest problem we have in America is that our political parties are exacerbating and exaggerating racial issues in America. The democratic party has created a situation that has destroyed black families, neighborhoods, and cities, Now as they are on the eve of blacks realizing this, democrats have begun pushing "systemic racism" as a cover story. This is the cruelest thing ever. To try to convince blacks that they have no chance in America because of their skin color when all indicators say otherwise. I agree with Dr Murry, we are headed for trouble.

[@grunck1estan]

@Bart Roberts Not around the world. Rwhanda is rising economically along with many other countries in Africa. Economists predict that Africa will be the faster growing economy in the 21st century. Moreover, many Uber Educated Africans from Kenya are taking up positions in academia, tech, and medicine along the west coast. As foreign workers, they are not given Affermative action and are held to the same standards as South or East Asian Foreign workers. One of these Kenyans was actually my Calculus professor, and he taught the subject better than all other professors in my whole university.

[@carlmanu]

@Bart Roberts You need to travel outside the US and talk to black people in other countries… then you will realize that this “systemic racism” by design is mostly uniquely American.

[@user-ef4gf7rr9r]

I'll steal Brett Weinstein's argument and say that we're living in the wake of systemic racism rather than active systemic racism. Almost no one in wider society is aggressively openly promoting racial preferences against traditional minorities (although they certainly are against "white" people now). However, we are still dealing with a very real legacy of a number of different but overlapping systems with racism deeply involved within them. Which is doubly crippling because we can't actually get to the people who are responsible or treat the problem at the root, and yet we still live with the consequences. However, the IQ issue can also be concomitantly true. So, as ever, focusing on the rights of the individual is paramount. Any other action chains people together unfairly-and I intend that entendre because the rationales that lead to it are the same in any collectivism. White supremacy or wokism. Doesn't matter.

[@grunck1estan]

@Samuel Pierce Again, these foreign students from Kenya are not given Affermative action. They have to have higher GPA, SAT, and TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language) scores than US natives to get into the same Unis. Those metrics are not some pieces of paper, they are metrics. Also, most of these Kenyans come from esteemed, rigorous, private schools set up in Kenya. They control for grade inflation and have international accreditation (not mills). If anything, GPA from US schools should absolutely be thrown out due to massive grade inflation, grade inflation not seen in East Asian or Private African schools.

[@robertprice9052]

@@user-ef4gf7rr9r Sure, its a rose by any other name. I find it perplexing, but understandable that those who yell loudest about racism and racist them selves. It makes no sense to blame everyone of one race for the sins of the distant past. The Black community has been so crippled by the very one's they believe are trying to help them. Today they are at a point where being treated equally is not enough, retribution is the order of the day. My assessment is that the democrats and media have spent decades telling them they will never get ahead because of their skin color that they cannot conceive of their own way.

[@ljb8157]

My father didn't want me to marry a black man (I didn't but not for that reason) but it wasn't because he thinks black people are less intelligent, it was because black men aren't known for sticking around. The reputation for fatherless black families made him believe that the odds weren't in favor and that marriage is hard enough. I obviously can't speak for everyone else but that's my experience.

[@athenictragedy751]

🤮

[@Shhehwhsi24]

Based Father we need more like him

[@yessir8089]

I would feel exactly the same if my daughter had a black boyfriend. I would hate it instinctively. But I would meet the boy.

[@ronhill1502]

You should marry into your own kind. Because you will instinctually understand each other more. I say this as a white man who was married to a Chinese woman for 17 years.

[@jamesshannon3669]

​@@ronhill1502 hypocrite much

[@x0rn312]

Coleman: knowing there are young public intellectuals such as yourself taking these cogent, wise, and fundamentally decent positions gives me hope for the future of our country. Happy 4th

[@otakurocklee]

"What else could it be?" Why can't it be culture? Black immigrants to the US do well academically.

[@foxbodyblues6709]

Immigrants are not a representative sample of the population. That example doesn’t work.

[@blakesleyk.7166]

African immigrants, largely, find Afro Americans inferior. Their parents don’t approve of intermarriage.

[@bradspitt3896]

@@foxbodyblues6709 I think he meant the same person that said no on a survey would say yes if it was more specific to African immigrants.

[@mrs.americanpie2079]

@@blakesleyk.7166 they often attribute this supposed superiority to their genetic differences and cultural traits- until you point out that they fled countries where their people run everything to go to countries where they don’t.

[@blakesleyk.7166]

@@mrs.americanpie2079 I’m lifelong leftist. Lifelong student of history. Yes, we agree. How’s the failed state of Liberia faring y’all?

[@patrickr.452]

Thank you Colman, for continuing to be a voice of reason and commented sense.

[@dougd1573]

Thank you Murray for the same.

[@somerandomguy7458]

Jated Diamond argues in his book Guns, Germs and Steel that Europeans and Asians got an enormous head start because of geography: some plants lend themselves to agriculture by producing energy-dense seeds which are easily harvested and which have a long shelf life after drying the Mediterranean climate was ideal for growing these plants Europe/Asia has a long east/west strip which allowed agriculture to propagate the Americas have regions with the same climate, but the dominant axis is north/south so those areas are separated and constrained; agriculture wasn't able to propagate the same way the Indigenous Australians could never have invented agriculture because the domesticatable plants simply weren't present, likewise with many other places agriculture meant that an individual could generate more food than they required, which enabled specialisation and a division of labour, which in turn enabled innovation certain types of animals lend themselves to domestication (especially important is a herding instinct); almost all these animals were present in Europe/Asia, and absent elsewhere domesticated livestock added to the food surplus, and added mobility living at close quarters with the domesticated livestock led to disease transmission, and after some time a "herd immunity" within the human population; the indigenous peoples who were later invaded had not acquired such immunity and were heavily impacted by diseases brought by colonists/conquerors On top of that, the alphabet was invented in the Mediterranean region whixh enabled transmission of knowledge, which enabled growth of knowledge, which imparted military abd commercial advantage With these advantages, the rest of the world didn't have a chance. At least, not for the first 10,000 years. But oil became incredibly important a bit over a century ago, and the existing empires were absolutely smashed by WWI. We're at the beginning of a new chapter. A Chinese diplomat was asked what he thought of the French Revolution and he replied, "It's too early to tell". That's probably pretty true.

[@santacruzman]

Advocating fairy tales in place of scientific truth is not very rational, although clearly Coleman has a rationale.

[@bennym5244]

I'm from the uk. I'm older. I grew up watching happy days and movies like back to the future. I was in awe of how fun and happy certain American communities were. In Europe after the war we had political and economic strife. We had active far left terrorism and the cold war was above our heads All the time. We marvelled at American drive inns, the dazzle of law vegas. The amazing opportunities in new york. The razzle and dazzle of new York. The surfing culture in California. The beauty and escapism of Alaska. We all looked at America and was so jealous at how they have a heaven away from the coal face of the cold war. Europe was broke and had so many problems. Anyway, today it breaks my heart that America is tearing itself apart. Destroying itself. Such a beautiful fun country. Yes there were problems but slowly changed were being made. Please protect what you have built.

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

Lmao, that wasn't reality, it was propaganda. Life in Europe has always been much better than in the US. American culture is poison. Racial division and never even achieved the basic welfare and workers' rights shit that Europe attained 70 years ago.

[@ileanamuntean7338]

It started with the destruction of education by Marxists.

[@kitkakitteh]

It’s your culture, not your race, that people find objectionable.

[@beverlyhurd8556]

Wow is that ever the truth!! 👍👍

[@traeucity6087]

My argument with Mr. Murray, and the thing that makes me view him with suspicion, is his disingenuous notion (05:09) that it is, "partly Latinos; but it is mainly Blacks", that have decided that identity politics' time has come. It is White Leftists that created the "isms" that plague our society. Marxism, socialism, communism, feminism, etc. It is American academia, particularly the Northeastern and Ivy League Universities, none of which are Black institutions; that are responsible for corrupting the educational process and indoctrinating the youth. Corporations, big tech, the sports and entertainment industries, labor unions and government bureaucracies, are all dominated by White Leftists. The Latinos and Blacks that Murray speaks of, are the puppets of identity politics; not the puppet masters. Mr. Murray is smart enough to know this; so at a minimum, it's intellectually dishonest for him to place responsibility on the messengers, instead of those that pay them to deliver the messages.

[@antimarx265]

You are being dishonest if you do not accept that South America and Africa have made their own systems.

[@markfernandes2467]

Muhammed Ali also thought it was a bad idea for white people to marry black people, and probably the other way round I assume. He said his reason was esthetic but I suppose he also was thinking about cultural differences and compatibility. The point is, just because a person holds this view, no matter if black, white, or other, it does not mean they are racist in my book, It certainly doesn't mean they necessarily think the other colour person is of less or more IQ. These things are preferences, they need not even be logical or correct (although they might) , they just are.

[@ognargormsby7121]

There is also the possibility that the parents do not actually object to the couple marrying but caution that society could be more harsh on the children as they may not be welcomed by either black or white communities? It is one thing to decide for yourself what you will persevere, it is quite another what you will suggest that your loved ones confront.

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

"I am not attracted to [group X]" is personal preference, may be a sexual thing, just like someone can like partners who are blond or red haired or whatever. But "I would rather people of my group not marry people of this other group" isn't personal any more, but some kind of social or political belief. And I would say by definition it IS racist - it is the belief that certain decisions should be dominated by judgements about someone's racial group. What you mean is it doesn't need to be motivated by belief in that group's inferiority, and that much is true - you could just think that for example both groups are fine on their own but aren't very compatible culturally. But in the end if you take that reasoning to its logical end you still get stuff like ethnostates. And it completely ditches that "judging people as individuals" thing that is brought up by Murray and I agree is very important. Differences can be overcome. But if someone's personality is so thoroughly defined by their ethnicity that they're incompatible with someone of a different background, they're not a very interesting person. It's like that bit about nationalism - that it's "being proud of shit you didn't do and hate people you never met". The same goes for ethnic pride (white or otherwise). Of course you will be influenced by the culture in which you grow up. But developing your individuality means there should be a lot more to you than just that basic cultural template.

[@timothymiddleton6651]

Doesn’t have to be all or nothing, you can have a preference without it being a demand

[@markfernandes2467]

@@kreek22 Hadn't thought of it from that angle, makes sense. Haven't heard anyone explain this tbh, I wonder why?.....

[@HaganeNoGijutsushi]

@@markfernandes2467 IMO because it's bullshit. It relies on two strong assertions neither of which is scientifically very solid: - that the major determinant of extraordinary people is their genetic disposition rather than environment, upbringing, etc., which IMO is already very shaky. Just look at how many geniuses sometimes you see in specific times and places in history, and then the same populations don't express as many geniuses only fifty years later or before (e.g. see all the great physicists in early XX century). It seems to me conditions are a lot more important, like when there's an especially prosperous and intellectually vivacious society, some people will develop their potential more - that mixing between the entire human race could ever be so fast, thorough and complete that it utterly outpaces mutation rate and flattens genetic diversity. IMO that wouldn't happen anyway because geographic separation remains important, and well, mutations still exist, but that is at least more probable. However Africa alone has the most genetic diversity of any other place on Earth (makes sense - everyone else is just the descendants of a small group of humans that drifted out of it early on in prehistory). So even if this reasoning was true, Africa would be the one to lose out from it - and white people would have all to gain.

The problem with it NOT becoming mainstream if it's true is that other FALSE explanations will fill the void.

[@shadowscott9910]

Facts are facts.If you don’t look at facts you can’t solve problems.

[@cristianproust]

Most people can't interpret the facts. That is why discussing them openly is important, because you never communicate a fact without its objective implications; that is the job of experts. At that point people decide which explanation fits better to reality, not discussing the facts themselves (because they are not equipped to understand the raw data)

[@annsheridan12]

@Shimmy Shai there is no solution only tradeoffs.

[@adamtki]

That's why black society continue to deteriorate in America. Everyone's blaming whites and racism and it only fuels racial hatred and division. The current solutions are centered around that and doesn't work. Just look at the result of the school Lebron James donates to. If they accept the IQ theory, then different programs can be placed to assist and hate and division would drastically diminish.

[@breet1516]

White people are by social convention disallowed to advocate for themselves while the rest of the demographics are encouraged to do the same thing. I would not want to contribute further to the disadvantage of white people in America by producing a biracial child that will almost certainly identify as that other race and advocate against white people. I'm not totally against dating and marrying a black girl, but that is my reason for leaning away from such a thing in my own life. I don't waste time objecting too much to my family's choices. They will do what they want and that's fine.

[@floritamendez3297]

So you care mkr about this abstract notion of white people than your own kid?

[@breet1516]

@@floritamendez3297 what an idiotic reply. I have no children. I was talking about choices I will make, and I think it’s perfectly reasonable to consider the racial demographic of which I’m a part. By the way, I only feel a need to make it any kind of priority because of the mad world in which I live, where people like me are demonized daily across all Western nations.

[@floritamendez3297]

@@breet1516 I know you have no children. I was engaging with your hypothetical. Your saying you would not have mixed kids because they might identify stronger with the other race and advocate against white people. Why would you care more about what your hypothetical kids are going to advocate against then your own kids themselves?

[@floritamendez3297]

@@breet1516 besides you think your white kids are not going to advocate against white people? It's mostly whit epeople in my experience who use you're a white male as an insult lol. And ethnic minorities are being educated by mostly white dominated academia and mainstream media to adopt these beliefs.

[@breet1516]

@@floritamendez3297 You’re wrong if you think it’s only white people pushing the anti-white narrative. I agree that many white people are weak and unwilling to advocate for themselves. Hence my original comment.

[@beamsgr]

I take exception to Mr. Murray's comment that it's mainly blacks that have decided it's time for identity politics - I believe it's mainly liberal elites of all races that have decided to push identity politics. If you want to subdivide that group by race, then I would argue that the largest race-based subgroup is white liberal elites that push identity politics. This is the core problem with most discussions of this nature, we allow them to be framed in terms of race - which is a social construct - instead of ignoring race and describing the actual group that is pushing the agenda. Once you engage in defining people by race in any discussion, then you lose the point you were trying to make.

[@jonahn1841]

I do agree with most of what you say accept that race is a “social construct”. Why isn’t birds a “social construct”? To be able to communicate, humans needs to classify things and put words on it otherwise it’s just grunts. Other than that, great text. 😁

[@femalesupremacistoverlord6800]

@@jonahn1841 Birds aren’t even comparable to the _human_ race because they have vast differences in size, ability, lifestyle, and more. Ethnic subgroups are nowhere near as simple as the modern “white”, “black”, “hispanic”, “asian”, etc., and we’re all incredibly similar. New, more accurate classifications should become mainstream.

[@beamsgr]

@@jonahn1841 IMHO - It's a social construct to the extent we are relying on minor physical differences within the same species to separate groups. Example - why aren't people with naturally occurring red hair, fair skin and freckles considered a separate race, rather than designated as "white". We chose skin color for societal reasons - not because there is any inherent biological differences between us. This is different from designating species - like eagles versus owls - where they can't procreate across species.

[@bfranciscop]

@@beamsgr Mostly because race is a proxy for saying 'genetic stock which originated in X geographic area', it just happens that hair color is a far less useful indicator than skin color + facial features.

[@30803080308030803081]

While you’re wrong about race being a social construct, I agree with the point you were making. I’m a white American, and I sure have known plenty of white Americans who totally believe in the neo-Marxist racial ideology that makes white people into the bad people. I think a motivation for a white person to believe in an anti-white ideology is to gain favor with people of other races, by being extra generous and submissive to them. It’s a strategy of minimizing risks and minimizing confrontation.

[@alongsleep]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to preserve your ethnic identity. Nothing at all.

[@stephencarter7266]

Sure as long as you don't try to interfere with what I got going.

[@bradspitt3896]

@@stephencarter7266 As long as your thing is the marginal thing otherwise you lose your identity in total diversity; homogeneity.

[@stephencarter7266]

@@bradspitt3896 If by "marginal thing" you mean nordic women with cute feet and breath like carnation milk, then I'm all for it. Otherwise I have no idea what you're talking about

[@bradspitt3896]

@@stephencarter7266 I just meant that the majority of relationships are same race/culture/ethnicity and the tails of the curve are interracial.

[@stephencarter7266]

@@bradspitt3896 A loss of identity can _only_ by found in the _center mass_ of the Bell Curve. I'm not sure what you're driving at.

[@JMo-uh5cd]

Props for having the guts to have this discussion. I dont think humans on the whole, have the kind of maturity to react to it in a non knee-jerk reaction, though.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

true, but what are we going to do then? What do you say to the person saying "blacks are underrepresented in academia and higher positions in tech companies"? If you acknowledge group differences, you risk white power idiots using that for their ends. If you don't, you will always hear "america is a racist country" and "whites are opressors" and have black power idiots. And because you can never fixthe problem and help the actual people (because you can not even acknowledge the problem), this does not go away. "forbidden" knowledge is always dangerous. These things have to be studied. We can talk about solutions and so on afterwards, that is where values come in. But making research and knowledge itself taboo is insanely dangerous and unamerican

[@matthewharris8819]

Yeah, you'll have to forgive us for having no patience with white supremacist pseudoscience.

[@businessproyects2615]

@@matthewharris8819 Some Jewish populations score highest in IQ tests. Even if that wasn't the case, it is irrelevant. In sort of democratic nations there's the responsability for the average individual to model the world in order to take the best possible choice. That includes a good model of intelligence itself, and differences between arbitrary or not groups are what is found. Its absurd to believe that everything someone says is false because they are from whatever ideology or is perceived as such.

[@matthewharris8819]

@@businessproyects2615 Group level statistics are absolutely useless. They don't tell us anything useful. There is always a distribution, and you have no idea where an individual person falls on that distribution until you test them individually. And nothing changes their civil and legal rights. The only use that anyone has for group level statistics is to justify atrocities. That's certainly what Charles Murray is after.

[@businessproyects2615]

@@matthewharris8819 Is useful to avoid atrocities too, the greatest atrocities in history were Marxist ones, not the ones you are thinking about. The Marxists in the Soviet Union thought every difference was due to explotation, that meant that people who just worked harder or otherwise earnt it in their own way without exploiting anybody ended up being shot. There's the argument to be made that in fact denying biological realities leads to the reasoning that every difference which is biologic is due to explotation AKA evil. Its obviously absurd to think that everything is biology, but the fact remains, if you try to hide biology what is left?. Evil?.

[@Malignus68]

Imagine a conversation between Coleman Hughes and Lex Fridman. Imagine staying awake through the whole thing.

[@ancientfuture9690]

😂😂😂

[@liamwinter4512]

Sometimes you just have to bump that speed up. I have to listen at 1.2 and 1.5 most the time.

[@ooainaught]

I would love it

[@blakesleyk.7166]

Electronic Ambien.

[@Mo74mmad]

@@liamwinter4512 1.75 for me

[@snakyjake9]

Our inability as a culture to accept these simple, hard truths has resulted in a large push for CRT.

[@Jay_Em10]

You obviously know nothing about crt and it’s origins. Please tell me it’s tenets and it’s origins. I’m almost certain you’ll get it wrong, like every other white person who hopped on the anti CRT bandwagon.

[@christopherwhitehurst9090]

@@Jay_Em10 careful, your obvious racist attitude toward white people is showing in a public forum. Must be why you don’t use your real name. Wow, racism and cowardice do go together.

[@Jay_Em10]

@@christopherwhitehurst9090 correcting a blatant mischaracterization of a theory that addresses the affects of institutionalized anti black racism throughout American history is quite the opposite. You wouldn’t dare be so stupid to call a Jewish person racist for calling out a German who undermines the affects of the Holocaust through curriculum . But look. I’m not so foolish to assume that a white person could shed himself of white superiority complex to humbly understand a theory about the effects of black suffering. FYI. MLK influenced critical race theory. Do your research.

[@snakyjake9]

CRT has roots in Critical Theory, and posits that US institutions are inherently racist / serve the purpose of oppressing people of color. Like all Marxist intellectual movements, it emphasizes the relationship between an oppressing group and an oppressed group. The problem is that you can't empirically prove what percent of differences among groups of people are due to systemic racism vs. cultural behaviors vs. genetic characteristics vs anything else. If you want to teach CRT, it is also necessary to teach The Bell Curve and analyze differences between prosperous/degenerate cultural practices. Our biases are going to lead us to accept one theory over the others by default, but it is dishonest to claim with certainty that one theory above all else explains everything. I'll close by stating the obvious, that nothing ever good resulted from the implementation of Marxist thought. The 20th century is a bloody reminder. Nothing changes just because you dress it up as the correct way to promote racial equality. Stop lying to yourself and accept some responsibility for your actions.

[@Jay_Em10]

@@snakyjake9 critical race theory has roots in critical legal studies (CLS) which has roots in critical theory. Get it right. Also, it has nothing to do with Marxism. The theory originated from a black law professor named Derrick Bell during his time at Harvard law. It has nothing to do with Marxism. The ignorance on this topic is mimicking mass hysteria.

[@LatinxMatt]

Inter-marriage preferences is not racist.

[@slyshadows999]

I am French, I don't know what is happening in USA but I feel that the republic value is going to be destroyed if we don't do anything.. We did a WWII because comunism and fascism... Don't do the same mistake

[@thedrunkenchefs4577]

What needs to be looked at is how welfare is structured to encourage fatherless homes.

[@tedmom3029]

People did look at it at the time welfare was expanded and they didn’t know what to do about it then and likely not now. When it was economically more advantageous to have the father gone from the home, blacks fathers did that in significant numbers. But the problem was more complex than that also.

[@chasethehorizonx]

Look to Africa for clarity around that. They have a different reproductive strategy that is matriarchal in character, if not polyamorous and kids are usually raised by the whole community. Small, monogamous nuclear families arose out of evolution in very cold environments. Monogamous marriage is not historically part of the African reproductive strategy, and it still has incredibly low adherence across the world, compared to Germanic, Scandic, and Celtic whites.

[@tedmom3029]

@@chasethehorizonx So the question remains of whether having a father in the home has broad economic and social ramifications.

[@thedrunkenchefs4577]

@@chasethehorizonx Perhaps in Africa, but look how the Black family changed in the US following the institution of welfare and the incentivization of fatherless homes. Actually, not just Black families. White families on welfare also tended towards fatherlessness.

[@chasethehorizonx]

@@tedmom3029 it depends on how the society is structured, and what kind of goals you are putting on that society. In a western technological society? Absolutely? In a cold-weather society that lives off of the land? Yes. In a society that lives in food belt with 24-7 sunshine, that lacks technology or a vested survival interest in it? Probably not. Hence the evolutionary reproductive strategy of Africans and other equatorial people, which lacks distinct nuclear family structures.

[@eismscience]

I think Murray is right when he says that this signals the end of the American experiment. Not because races are unequal, but rather because the experiment is built on the wishful and unscientific idea that they are. America's inability to deal with the reality of human differences is the main driving force behind the country's continuing descent into chaos, despite having enacted some of the most sweeping and successful advances in human rights that the earth has ever seen. This paradox takes some time to absorb, but it is undeniably, empirically the case. The more the U.S. advances in its goals, and the more sincerely it tries to make things right, the faster it will descend into hell.

[@stephencarter7266]

The reality of human differences is that humans evolve. If America is descending into chaos, it's because it can't break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

[@mr.seapig2811]

In his book “democracy in America“, Alexis de Tocqueville states that his biggest fear in the longevity of the United States was the Black people on its soil… He understood that these two people groups were so different that assimilation was nearly impossible. This was in 1839, when he wrote this book.

[@NanakiRowan]

He didn't address the root cause. Only the reaction.

[@TheOpenSociety777]

​@@NanakiRowancheap cotton is the most expensive thing Western Civilization has ever had to endure

[@NanakiRowan]

@@TheOpenSociety777 Not according to history and economics.

[@TheOpenSociety777]

@@NanakiRowan Now run the numbers on crime , violence and civic disunity

[@NanakiRowan]

@@TheOpenSociety777 I did. It's not the group you think it is. I suspect you know this, which is why you're thumbs upping all your comments (insecurity in knowing that you're wrong).

[@johnnyyork3796]

Glen loury just had a great conversation with murray as well.

[@-haclong2366]

09:00 The intelligent Black people you find in high end places are not the average Blacks you find in ghettoes, a meritocracy would benefit everyone.

[@overtonpendulum2071]

We don't live in a reasonable world, but discussion about this topic is imperative due to several reasons. I would agree that there were no mass immigration into America, no policy of racial preferences and if the left wasn't so anti-White, talking about this topic would be at best redundant and at worst destructive for society. But that is not the situation we are in. The left themselves create the need for the discussion of this uncomfortable topic due to the policies they push.

[@alec1430]

Truth

[@billsimms2511]

Yep, the left has forced us to have this discussion.

[@n8m102]

@@billsimms2511 “the left forced me to legitimize nazi talking points”

[@n8m102]

@Heinrich Heinrich you people are perpetual victims

[@n8m102]

@Heinrich Heinrich the fact that u used that term shows that you’re not to be taken seriously 😭

[@MarkLandrebe-ef5yd]

There have been numerous studies on race & IQ, there is a difference Globally. How many black Geniuses can you name / who Invents Advanced Technologies / who flies $1M fighter planes / who is usually NFL quarterback ?

[@jamesshannon3669]

Really the quarterback argument it's not 1985 jackass

[@djangountamed9544]

Both gentlemen here are making excellent points. Coleman is right that the world is not a rational place, and that many people will handle these sorts of facts about IQ & race poorly. On the other hand, Charles is absolutely right too. Some very misguided people, as well as some quite devious people, have already set the place on fire with the Woke madness. So we need to explain why we actually don't live in a systemically racist society, and that will entail expounding on some difficult truths, unfortunately. The fire needs to be put out - and hopefully the Rubicon hasn't been passed yet.

[@shaynelee487]

Nice summation!

[@blakesleyk.7166]

We have crossed that Rubicon.

[@jeupater1429]

The problem is that our society is built on the illusion that ethnicities want to live together. They don't. It doesn't matter if you're black or white. Ethnicities want to be separate. Wokism is an attack on "whiteness" exactly for this reason.

[@yuliadubov2964]

@@jeupater1429 I don’t think this has to do with ethnicity, much more with culture.

[@jeupater1429]

@@yuliadubov2964 well I'm sorry but the idea that it's all just cultural aspects is not sufficient to explain findings in the literature. On average ppl even tend to choose friends that are more genetically similar to themselves than would be expected by the medium population, even among the same ethnicity, there's no cultural basis for this. Yet, it is completely congruent with Dawkins selfish gene theory. And same can be said for mate selection. Genes want to reproduce themselves not just the organism. The fact is ppl with only rudimentary understanding of genetics almost always undervalue the importance of genes, when in reality, lacking knowledge in genetics, they don't have an educated opinion.

[@XinaCCPFreeTibet]

Knowing what we know, all those who argue that IQ as an accurate measure of “intelligence” is obviously very “intelligent”

[@justanother240]

Charles Murray is a true patriot. An American hero.

[@jeffreydougherty7446]

You’re the man Colman! Much love!

[@twocents5362]

Possibly could've mentioned the percentage of blacks who disapprove of relatives marrying whites... Or any race marrying outside of their race/culture for that matter. What percentage of Chinese or Japanese wed out of race/culture? Indians? Arabs? You can go on and on with the examples so why the focus on white people?

[@OuseBerk]

@Bart Roberts Hand rubbing intensifies

[@k4yser]

Here in Germany Turkish father's are forbidding their daughters to have relationships with German men. Many of them get coupled/forced into cousin marriage. One of the reason turkey is THE country for biologists, when they are looking for rare genetic defects, often caused by intermarriage.

[@appledough3843]

Because they’re racist towards white peoples. Hypocrisy is blind to those who practice it.

[@yashpatel261]

@@k4yser Some german grandfathers are saying the same. I speak from personal experience.

[@lucianp2616]

Some black people are racist. Some white people are racist. It's wrong from any race.

[@subliteral1380]

Treating people as individuals (as a rule) truly is the antidote to tribalism. Generalizations and stereotypes only work at a group level. If you pick an individual at random from that group, many of your assumptions will prove to be incorrect. Tribalism is a deeply rooted survival mechanism to be sure, but not because it is truly predictive at the individual level. It's an all-or-nothing strategy that minimizes risk to the group, but is also insular, it restricts the exchange of knowledge, and it can lead to conflict. In a multicultural society, tribalism is antithetical to social cohesion. We must remain vigilant, and try to be conscious of our own tribal thoughts and instincts as they occur. Choosing to treat people as individuals is THE way to counter it.

[@ITMT.]

Every regional group has a percentage of people who have lower intelligence. With society becoming easier to navigate and succeed in unfavorable genes will continue to exist. Those unintelligible percentages will always generalize groups and keep racism alive. It’s like trying to prevent people from killing each other, it’s going to happen no matter what you try to tell them.

[@_observer_-xk7hb]

There are of course IQ differences between ethnic groups, just like there are physical differences between groups. Acknowledging these differences is important for formulating government and social policies. On the other hand, acknowledging these differences brings the danger of discrimination or worse against groups regarded as "inferior". It's vital that despite average group differences, the emphasis be on treating people as individuals, not as groups. There are many other traits besides IQ that determine the societal worth of a person.

[@NanakiRowan]

There are no inherent differences in intelligence between ethnic groups, and physical differences (of which intelligence is not) differ more within groups than between groups.

[@811see]

@@NanakiRowanthat’s just flat out wrong. Your telling me that a East Asian within a group could look more different than a south Sudanese. You’re just lying or misinformed.

[@NanakiRowan]

@@811see You're very confused and obviously not well-versed in genetics. Your issue is that you equate genetic variation, which varies within populations by 94%, to physical traits. Your question proves this though. For example, there is more variation in height within East Asians than between East Asians and East Africans.

[@tomdalsin5175]

One thing that annoys me about the racial IQ averages subject ... it's a measure of groups, not of an individual. If you're smart, you're smart. If you're charming, you're charming. You are who you are, and your abilities are what they are. But people take these things personally, as if some average of a million strangers changes the facts about who they are and what they can do. It often affects the initial assumptions of people who you meet, but those assumptions which should be immediately dispelled and/or suspended with any meaningful interaction. We need to dispel ignorance, but it seems the policy dujour is to shoehorn in more ignorance instead. FFS, find something you like doing, practice, and get paid doing it.

[@tom690]

Regardless if the studies are actually true enough, it is infuriating when people use broad sociological trends to dictate how they treat others. Sjws and some right wing people do this, they dont see individuals they see group identity

[@zsedcftglkjh]

Now put a bunch of ethnicities together in a city and ask yourself again how this is relevant.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

Because group dynamics govern societal progress, cultural decline, & politics.

[@tomdalsin5175]

@@southafricanizationofsociety20 In a general sense, that's true. My complaint is about people taking these things personally, as individuals.

[@philmccracken179]

But small differences in group characteristics can have major societal effects. An example of thus would be the fact that every white created country is great while Africa sucks

[@crystallogician]

Coleman, c'mon, you're not fooling anyone with that thumbnail. We all know you'll maintain your meditative demeanor throughout the entire interview.

[@Banana_Split_Cream_Buns]

The "would I allow my son/daughter to marry someone of another race" question has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with attitude and exposure.

[@rascallyrabbits2573]

You are just setting yourself up for added difficulty to marry outside race. Life can be difficult enough. Also, your progeny will have issues. I’d rather go around boulders in my path then try to remove them. Put your boat in the water downstream.

[@greggcoccarro4041]

These difference are NOT 100% racial but rather cultural. Now it is evident that culture is unevenly distributed among races but we are blaming race rather than culture, and I suspect that this disinformation is done on purpose because if what accounts for these differences were truly genetic or racial than there is nothing than can be done and we will be helpless but if instead we recognize that these differences are mostly cultural, a way of thinking and seeing life, then all of a sudden we have hope. And this is what they want to hide from us

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

Each racial group (and social class) might have is own culture but there is a wider definition of culture that might be summed up as activities that stimulate our minds, and develop reason, and the capacity to solve problems. I'm not sure that everyone benefits from opportunities to participate in a full scale opera production, but the older I get the more I see that people who live in the poorest urban areas are made stupid by their environment. I'm not poking fun at anyone. My parents were teachers in inner city Birmingham (UK) in the 70s. People are held back because they've never made something by hand from raw materials and they don't have opportunities to solve basic survival problems such as where their food comes from, or how to organise their own communities. We have to talk first about social class, and the USA is never going to do that. If you look at the arguments around getting women into STEM subjects, that could never have happened without first creating a society where women didn't live lives that were totally housebound. Many of those "poor" urban environments used to be centres of manufacturing. Children were growing up asking more questions about how things were made or how to fix things. That's another kind of IQ. You could get a clearer idea of what's being done to people's minds by looking at the statistics on MH, alongside the distribution of the highest IQ. Objectively, there might be a racial difference. Idk because the science has never shown that. Social scientists aren't willing to see the bigger problem of large sections being deliberately held back and the motivation for doing that. All we are really being shown here is the mechanism of holding back one demographic so that another demographic can get ahead.

[@greggcoccarro4041]

@CC-hx5fz it is the duty of the leaders of the demografic that feels leftout to change the culture of their community, instead they have bought into a victim mentality that turns everything into opressed/oppressor and throws ALL blame one anyone but themselves. No one can actively hold any democraphic down that refuses to be held down. They need to take responsability for their fate

[@GlasPthalocyanine]

@@greggcoccarro4041 yes. That's a better way of wording the problem. It's the difference between asking for the change that you need, and throwing a tantrum because you can't force everyone else to do what you want. I'm disabled. So, I get it. My disabled rights, as a minority, can't be enshrined in law at the expense of other people. I'm dependent on a advanced society with a lot of infrastructure and other human beings who aren't total sociopaths. I also have to give something back, as far as I'm able. If I have a long list of personal needs that have to be met by an employer then I'd better be a contientious employee. That's what's missing in the Trans debate. What exactly are they adding to society for putting up with this hassle?

[@MadSaurax]

The irony is assuming there's a choice here. Not accepting reality will simply create so much uncessary suffering, and pressure that inevitably chaos will be brought into society as a way to self-heal and self-correct from the madness of delusion. You can't ignore reality for long before the dragons under the carpet start getting hungry

[@jed52]

That thumbnail is hilarious

[@thetshirtblog]

Coleman has gone full click bait? Seems to be working..

[@natbrownizzle1387]

@@thetshirtblog I think the thumbnail is Colemans way of poking fun at those who freak out, when speaking about these topics, since nowhere in the discussion does he act like that ^^.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

“Among blacks, 76% of self-described conservatives, 71% of moderates, and 76% of liberals favor affirmative action programs for minorities.” (Gallup) African Americans do not subscribe to individualism, they are very tribal and collectivist, but they’re happy if other groups, mainly White, are individualists. Their support for the discrimination of Whites and Asians via affirmative action hovers around 72% (Gallup, 2019) over the last 20 years.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

“Common ancestry, common culture, common environment - all these factors contribute to the genomes of individuals of the same ethnic groups.” -CBS New, “Culture etched on our DNA…”2017

[@evanm.4304]

Great perspectives from both guys. Appreciate the willingness to have the conversation at all. I'll subscribe.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

“Among blacks, 76% of self-described conservatives, 71% of moderates, and 76% of liberals favor affirmative action programs for minorities.” (Gallup) African Americans do not subscribe to individualism, they are very tribal and collectivist, but they’re happy if other groups, mainly White, are individualists. Their support for the discrimination of Whites and Asians via affirmative action hovers around 72% (Gallup, 2019) over the last 20 years. “…support for affirmative action based on their demographic and political characteristics shows that race is by far the strongest predictor. Ideology is the next strongest, but its effect is only half as large as that found for race.” (Gallup)

[@yankeefederer1994]

Europeans still are very in-ground oriented. America by design had to assimilate and cohere together around multi-ethnic groups. While most were originally ethnically white, culturally they all had idiosyncrasies that didn't gel right away. Over time those differences have lessened as the idea of being an american has taken hold. White Americans don't have a center, because they are as a whole very culturally diverse. I think that white culture could become a focal point around which many will circle around if identity politics is left to reach its dystopian end.

[@floritamendez3297]

Supporting affirmative action doesn't mean you're supporting discrimination against anyone.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

@Maka Maka Nick cannon found this out the hard way.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

@@floritamendez3297 Yes it does it’s the very definition of discrimination because it means racial preference. Don’t ever call yourself intelligent ever again.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

“…support for affirmative action based on their demographic and political characteristics shows that race is by far the strongest predictor. Ideology is the next strongest, but its effect is only half as large as that found for race.” (Gallup)

[@acropolisnow9466]

Isn't Coleman just describing in-group preference?

[@TransparencyandMerit]

It does seem like he favors black peoples feeling over truth

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

Yes.

[@lucianp2616]

@@TransparencyandMerit Are these groups anything other than arbitrary? I could for example say tall people are a group, and measure IQs, and short people maybe have lower IQ on the statistics, and this matters why?

[@b.alexanderjohnstone9774]

Many people don’t want their children to marry outside their own group. I don’t say it’s right just that it’s not unique. What is unique to the English speaking world is that we are willing to say it’s wrong. Italians, Indians, Pakistani, Arabs just take it as natural.

[@endless3cho]

As far as inter-racial marriage, I think it's a cultural more than a racial issue. Many cultures diverge widely in some of the most mundane everyday things.

[@corsair6]

Its cultural more than racial. Its obvious that certain cultures, are much more compatible than others. Some cultures are very accommodating and differential, others are highly resistant to not only being inclusive but, the need to stand apart and be obstinance, continuing behavior that leads to no good. Put on the objective goggles, and go to an inner city high school that has a diverse student body, see who's doing what and getting along with whom...very telling.

[@thadlincolnii7398]

@@corsair6 You guys like to come up with more excuses and exceptions to distract from the racism of too many in this country. Black people raised in majority white nieighborhoods, white majority white DNA are s till rejected by a number of whites in this country. Did you forget that 1)there are nearly 200 organized white supremacist groups operating in this country today? 2)The insurrectionist on Jan 6 were carrying confederate flags and wearing racist tee shirts and shouting racial epithets at police? 4)The FBI reported that our greatest domestic terror threat is from white supremacist groups?

[@some_g333]

@@thadlincolnii7398 cope. Carry on being indoctrinated by CNN. Clearly you're not rational minded enough to even be watching this video if you think it was an insurrection.

[@youtubeyoutube936]

Thad. The greatest danger from the right is talked about here in Europe too - however wha we have experienced is complex the reverse. Seems here and in the USA there is an intention to heighten right wing issues in order to downplay or equalise the situation

[@youtubeyoutube936]

Yongo race and culture can and do overlap but are not the same.

[@cowabungadude7408]

Charles Murray takes risks, speaks truth to power, and has my full support and respect.

[@stephencarter7266]

He's an old, sly, provocative grifter.

[@hiroe6350]

@@stephencarter7266 how so?

[@stephencarter7266]

@@hiroe6350 Because he won't (seriously)touch the influence big media (tv, films and advertising) has in creating and maintaining identity. There are way too many holes in his theories for a smart guy like Murray to take them seriously. He's packaging and peddling a bundle of talking points designed to drown out debate (not encourage it). Only in a dumbed down america could he even get away with his hamfisted scholarship.

[@bradspitt3896]

@@stephencarter7266 Could you elaborate, seems like those things would just help his argument. It's not arbitrary or in a vacuum that the Smithsonian created a document illustrating a white/black dichotomous morality.

[@stephencarter7266]

@@bradspitt3896 What do you want me to elaborate? What's not arbitrary or in a vacuum, and in what context are you referring to.

[@DibbzTV]

What’s funny about my views on Murray is while I disagree on his positions of past historical significance, he is SPOT ON for the present and future America

[@MrAhuraMazda]

I disagree about any correlation between race and IQ. A) African immigrants perform as good as any race and B) post slavery blacks were incredibly smart and some could argue that despite all slavery had done, that Jim Crow was worse. If you read about black ambition and achievement right after emancipation it was very impressive. *also i believe a hidden cause of a lot of black suffering was and is Mexican immigration taking over industries that blacks relied upon to build wealth. That and exporting manufacturing to China in the late 80s. Absolutely devastated the paths to financial success for millions of Americans, and a majority of blacks. Even now you see border counties voted for Trump cause Mexican immigration is actually hurting American Mexicans deepest. Even they see open borders for the crisis it is, but this has been going on for decades eroding many means of black success.

[@Grand_Edict]

Keep in mind the African immigrants you mention generally come from highly accomplished families relative to their backgrounds…

[@sivannatalie]

Why are those two stats necessarily linked? Isn’t it possible there are other reasons why white Democrats and white Republicans said they would object to their relative marrying a black person? Not saying it’s right - I wholeheartedly disagree with their sentiment - but maybe they’d object because they wouldn’t want their family member to have to deal with issues that might arise from being in an interracial marriage, things imposed by society. Surely, all things being equal, life would be simpler if you’re married to someone of the same (or similar) ethnic background. Maybe these people who said they’d object are doing so because they’re overestimating the racism of other people.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

So you prove critical race theory to be correct, then.

[@sivannatalie]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn How did you come to that conclusion?

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

@@sivannatalie You are picking a spouse based on race, based on the perception of racial turmoil. Moreover, I think that choice is just a pretext for racialism. I mean, if society told you that there are problems that come with dating a 6'4, white male with a chiseled jaw, I doubt you would let that sway you. You let it sway because fundamentally, you just don't want to date that race.

[@sivannatalie]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn First of all, I am NOT picking a spouse based on race. I specifically said I did NOT agree with the sentiment. I was posing a hypothetical about why people MIGHT feel that way. And my hypothetical included the possibility that these people (who object to their relative marrying a black person) are doing so because they are OVERESTIMATING the racism of OTHER PEOPLE in this country, not that they themselves are so racist they couldn’t stand the idea of a black in-law. And if it is easier to marry someone of your own race, which I suspect it is, that fact wouldn’t imply that the difficulties interracial couples face come from white people at all. I didn’t specify anything of the sort. You’re projecting all kinds of preconceived notions of your own onto what I said then acting as though I actually said that shit. I meant no more and no less than was I wrote. There was no hidden meaning on my end to uncover, only the various “meanings” you brought with you to your reply. Also, just because racism exists (which I don’t think anyone serious is denying), that fact alone doesn’t prove anything at all regarding CRT. Racism existing at all is very different from racism existing in every single interaction, institution, and facet of daily life. Also the only way I could have “proven” critical race theory is if critical race theory was about how a random person on KZbin could leave a comment on a video- cause that’s all that happened. Your assertion is ridiculous.

[@sivannatalie]

@Tom Lowery I agree, it would be interesting to know what the stats would be if the races were reversed.. In fairness, I think we should take into consideration that we only saw a small segment of their conversation, so we don’t know the full context of Coleman’s suggestion about the link. There might be more to it.

[@Shyeena]

Thank you for having on Charles Murphy. I am deeply grieved over the agenda that I see being calculated with the _INTENTIONAL_ consequence to divide a diverse and culturally beautiful nation; whose flag represents ethnic groups from all around the globe; including the indigenous. First - PERSPECTIVE using only facts! Since the Civil Rights movement ended the ban on interracial marriage in 1967 we can see on the 2010 census that: Interracial marriages DOUBLED by 1980 and DOUBLED AGAIN in 2008! Per population numbers, BLACKS marrying WHITES = _TRIPLED!_ WHITES TO BLACK = _DOUBLED!_ 2010 Census Shows Multiple-Race Population (INTERRACIAL CHILDREN) Grew Faster Than ANY Single-Race Population: Four groups were the largest multiple-race combinations, each _exceeding 1 million people in size,_ *white and black (1.8 million), *white and “hispanic” (1.7 million), *white and Asian (1.6 million) and *white and American Indian and Alaska Native (1.4 million). I am in an interracial marriage now for 42 wonderful years. My 3 children, 8 grandchildren have dated and married whoever treated them with respect. Our family now represents AMERICANS: BLACK, WHITE, EAST INDIAN, PACIFIC ISLANDER, & SPANISH. Dividing the statistics by Democrat v Republican is, well, divisive! But as AMERICANS: The narrative coming at us, 24-7 is that "White mankind hates Black/Melanin mankind and white mankind devised a system for everyone else to fail. When we voted for Obama, a whopping 65% of whites voted for him. 1/3 of Congress is also not white! And proportionate to their population. Our country is filled with very successful Black persons who looked at their current plight of poverty or, just wanting more, and through their sheer will and self-determination became a success - at whatever they enjoyed (money does NOT determine success). Others took advantage of Black School Grants, Black College Scholarships, Black only Business programs, Black community outreach, and Affirmative Action. Maybe the difference is CULTURE? FAMILY? White culture to kids: _"No one owes you a thing, life isn't fair so be prepared to be kicked to the curb. But Character is built when the world is against you and you learn from your mistakes and never repeat them! Take pride in all you do even if that is cleaning toilets!"_ Black to black marriages in 1967 was 61%. Today: 32% ! That's a lot of young men and women who no longer view the family unit as a priority. Many of the smartest and most successful men will tell you they never finished high school or went to college. They were self read and taught. They made friends with smarter people. The problems we face to day is an AGENDA that portrays Melanin AS STUPID, VICTIMS, and NEED TO BE CARED FOR! That's insulting! The answer is to unite!

[@Fahrenheit4051]

If there's a correlation between race and IQ that was caused by genetics, that does not mean that it has to be that way. The genes that control intelligence are clearly not the same as those that code for skin color or hair type. Unfortunately, in many parts of the country, selective pressures are not in the direction of intelligence. On the contrary, there is selective pressure toward stupidity, a lot of which is due to government intervention. I don't object to discussing this topic, and agree with Bret Weinstein that the implications of the truth are often nowhere near as scary as they're imagined to be. But for Murray to dismiss concerns that this will inflame social tensions based on the fact that the country is already in flames doesn't seem like good reasoning. We should still be careful not to add more fuel. I am in no way advocating for censorship, just that we discuss sensitive topics tactfully as you both have done here. I would also disagree with Murray's assertion that blacks are the main pushers of identity politics today. Race-card pulling was definitely fuel, but the media lit the match. The "fire" consists of: - Universities indoctrinating young people of all races into the woke religion, which is now spreading into public schools. - Astroturfing by multinational corporations (many of which are probably doing China's bidding) creating the illusion of an overwhelming tide of support. They are not responding to public pressure - they are creating it.

[@buckchile614]

The Joint Chiefs of Staff destroyed the 'woke' argument beyond recognition. Ignoring history and attribution is what got us to where we are now.

[@stephencarter7266]

Thank you. The cruelest irony of this comment section, is that majority of people praising _the courage and common sense_ in Murray's ideas have never taken an IQ test.

[@Fahrenheit4051]

@@buckchile614 When they talked about teaching critical race theory in school? What they said boils down to "people should be well read - reading Marx, Lenin, and Mao does not make one a communist." But that's misdirection. Schools are not teaching critical race theory as just another framework alongside others, in the manner that schools typically teach religion or philosophy. They are teaching it as truth. Connecticut recently passed a bill requiring African American studies to be taught, in order to "develop students' identities". Ignoring history is definitely how we got this way - ignoring historical examples of socialism, totalitarianism, manufactured consent (Chomsky has a bit of a point here), mass hysteria, astroturfing, and what happens when big government and big business collude with each other.

[@SlyNine]

Correct. If all white people did what they did in Idiocracy and all black people started only reproducing with the smartest it would quickly flip in a few generations. But so would all the other statistics.

[@Fahrenheit4051]

@Calvin Something The government interventions I'm referring to are: - Welfare programs that remove the need for fathers (or more broadly, stable two-parent houseolds). This eliminates the financial cost of a family breakup, but magnifies the social cost. More kids = more benefits. Small, stable family = no benefits. - Affirmative action removes at least some pressure to actually _earn_ your position. The skills mismatch and unearned favors lead to animosity. This is one thing that Murray is right about. - The push for schools and childcare facilities to be a child's primary economic provider. Universal day care, universal pre-K, free school lunches, stay afterschool. Liberate the parents from actually having to parent - you are his mother/father, not his teacher. Make it easy to be an absentee. Between the large numbers of people addicted to these programs and those whose empathy circuits have been hijacked into believing these programs are helpful, politicians create a dependent class whom they can rely on for easy votes year after year. The only solution is to keep talking about it and raising hell until more people "just say no" to that lifestyle and reclaim their own agency.

[@rookie6185]

An important discussion. Thanks for this, Coleman.

[@myway7367]

Coleman’s take that “facts can be dangerous” (in a time of corrosive lies) is asinine and telling of what he would do if he had any power.

[@paulelago9453]

Exactly. Who decides what facts are "dangerous", it's an elitist arrogant view. They think the have the right to protect "average" people from the truth if it produces outcomes they don't want.

[@MelGibsonFan]

@David Lightman Would you publish the data necessary for synthetic bio weapons? I think he’s making that kind of argument, some facts are better left unsaid.

[@CurseCreep]

@@paulelago9453 I don´t think he is advocating for the obscuring of facts, just a moral way of presenting them. Literally everyone has some emotional investment into some narrated reality that can be debunked with some factually loaded diatribe, if thats what you want to do. Doesn´t mean you should be a jerkoff and do it as a given thing. This is of course super tough nowadays, what with the internet making information so readily available. Things need to be balanced man, or people get overwhelmed

[@crackcrock]

color blindness > prejudiced lenses.... Woke is highly prejudiced.

[@Deepfake820]

For the woke if you are less intelligent you are also an inferior human

[@buckchile614]

@@Deepfake820 Actually being 'woke' means not sleeping through a undergraduate/postgraduate history class--because HS history is straight up propaganda. HS historian's can't handle the truth. It's not the woke wanting to cut benefits to the disadvantaged

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

Color blindness is an ideal only White People subscribe to and it’s why this country is dying.

[@crackcrock]

@@southafricanizationofsociety20 wrong

[@iworship6951]

If he had not published this book, someone would have done it anyways, and without such a gracious preface. Might as well be this author.

[@vangoghsear8657]

Good point.

[@phys1c]

Brave of you to cover such a controversial topic- especially these days -bravo

[@Pengalen]

The actual answer is culture. For a long time, and apparently at present and actively by CRT, there is the notion in a lot of black-American subcultures that education is "being white" and therefore something to be avoided. On top of that, the number one killer of young black men is... other young black men. Black-Americans have been leading in overwhelming numbers of single parent households, those other ethnicities are catching up now. But the point is, all of this is a cultural phenomenon, because it doesn't happen the same way among comparable populations of black people in other countries and circumstances (though of course one must acknowledge that the general genetic make-up of African-Americans is different from other black populations. But the point is, this is cultural, which means, it is learned and can be unlearned, but it can't really be forced. Obviously lots of individual black Americans escape or succeed in spite of this, but a lot more are dragged down. Unfortunately, CRT and BLM and identitarianism generally are moving this in the wrong direction.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

Racism is a bug factor in outcome, too.

[@ValidatingUsername]

Imagine saying something isn’t fair but a 4 year old from Iran reads the instructions and isn’t coached and does better

[@debless9]

It shouldn't be mainstream because it's flawed. The iq difference is because white kids have better preschool, grow up in homes where reading is encouraged etc. The difference in iq points is exactly what you'd expect given the difference in schooling. Immigrants from the Caribbean and and Nigeria do just fine despite being black compared to North American blacks, who often also have Caucasian ancestry. You can find white populations in the same poverty trap, broken homes, poor academic performance etc.

[@some_g333]

Keep coping.

[@ITMT.]

What about the very top of the spectrum? Like Northern European geniuses that redefined mathematics and philosophy? Sure people can go to work and succeed financially at the same rate, but there seems to be a slight difference in the height of intellectual achievement and physical achievement. Nobody is superior, it just depends on the system and who it was created for.

[@johngrey1074]

Far more interesting than IQ differences among groups is average personality differences (and the heritability of said differences). Hopefully more research comes out on impulsivity, sociopathy, excitability, etc.

[@niqwalshensemble9164]

Testosterone and aggression

[@colinyoung3685]

Temperament can be bred into dogs within a few generations, it isn't outlandish to posit that disparate populations developed different behavioral patterns over time. Then that culture ingrained these through sexual selection of those patterns.

[@30803080308030803081]

Yeah, I’d rate these as “equally interesting” or “equally important”. I’ve lived in two parts of the world, North America and East Asia. I can see differences in personality traits between Western/European people and Eastern people. There are relationships between the personalities of the people and the economies and governments the people create. There’s much yet to be rigorously studied about the variation in human nature and the effects on large-scale social phenomena.

[@niqwalshensemble9164]

@@30803080308030803081 Culture is formed by history, and an individual’s behavior is shaped to a large extent by cultural influences. It would be extremely surprising if disparate ethnic groups did not exhibit different behavior at the individual level.

[@OurNewestMember]

Do you have any links to research or helpful overview articles?

[@markclippendara]

*First and foremost, you should treat people based on their conduct and actions. I worry about the narrative that's currently in the media. And I do worry about racism from all sides, which is almost never talked about. A lot of people want to take the natural and genetic part of our true selves, out of the scientifical genetic equation; and rely on idealism for reality. If you believe that we are animals and that we came from evolution over thousands to millions of years. Then, you learn to realize that it's less about free will and idealism. There is a fine line that you have to be careful about. What I applaud about wanting to frame life in Idealism, is that, the belief in bettering yourself and in return, making the world better around you makes life better for Humanity. I love that aspect of Idealism. But it's being perverted and weaponized to manipulate certain portions of this population. It's slowing and sometimes preventing free speech when it comes to science and the truth (which are, at times, manipulated by humans) when in my opinion is the best way to come to educated conclusions on topics. *What worries me about the conversations on this episode is that it talks about us not recognizing patterns as human beings. Like we're not predisposed genetically to see patterns.... thats upsetting to me. It's like you're trying to talk me out of my Humanity. Tell me I'm unreasonable when something comes As Natural as breathing. And completely eliminates any Prospect of using the scientific method to recognize patterns in genetics and Humanity. Several comments state that there's no way to properly obtain credible studies and science data behind the subject of social genetics habits, so it should be completely eliminated (in so many words) all together. ** Anybody feeling me? Love is Everything!

[@barrytipton8564]

3:00 if you look at dozens of polls, about 25% answer in the most unlikely and ridiculous ways. Seriously, look at some polls right now. I wonder why this is the case.

[@zmo1ndone502]

Coleman is absolutely right about regular folks that aren't authors and intellectuals DO make these connections between a book like the Bell Curve and the idea of Black unintelligence. Normal people do t have time for the nuance. Now Charles is logical but it leads him to dangerous territory unfortunately.

[@anonperson3972]

03:00 I think the point here really highlights an issue of statistical illiteracy with the population. An "on average lower IQ", whether due to environmental or genetic factors, does not mean "all people of X group are less intelligent". If you have a basic grounding in statistical thinking it is very easy to understand averages but also judge people on an individual basis.

[@lucianp2616]

The average IQ is 100, and the average person isn't educated like that. And frankly, I think Murray knows better and knows it's harmful. He knows academics aren't the ones watching these videos. He knows it's people with IQ below 100, people who don't have a college education, people who don't know about genetics, or how it works. And if he knows how genes work, why is race and IQ even a topic of discussion? Height and IQ isn't being talked about. Gender and IQ isn't being talked about. So why do we need a discussion of race and IQ? Other than to divide people, it doesn't help. If we want to figure out why some people genetically have a higher IQ, we would need to study people across all races who have a high IQ. It's that simple. It's not going to matter what the averages are. We don't know the genes of the average black or average white or average human. We only can measure individuals.

[@anonperson3972]

@@lucianp2616 There are people in their respective scientific fields researching the differences between ethnic groups, for example, height, limb length muscle fiber types etc for athletics or the differences in digestive adaptations for different groups and the impact that has on food, health and disease. Their are geneticists finding some things around the neurology and hormones with different ethnic groups, but the research is sparser and a bit "forbidden" at the moment. For example, researchers found a gene for serotonin reuptake in north western Europe, with a peak density in Denmark (this would definitely lead to changes in behaviour). But the lack of research or open discussion doesn't help in having a balanced or mature discussion and instead leaves it open to poorer thinkers and bad actors

[@lucianp2616]

@@anonperson3972 And what is the agenda behind this research? And what are the defining criteria for an ethnic group? How is it measured or measurable? How much white or how much black and how is it measurable? Or is it just you look like this, and your IQ is that, and people who typically look like you typically have an IQ like this?

[@lucianp2616]

@@anonperson3972 Let me give you an example. Suppose I'm an attractive person. And as an attractive person I conduct a study "Beauty and the IQ Bellcurve", and let's say my study shows that attractive people on average have a higher IQ. Tell me how this is good for attractive people? It will promote hate toward attractive people from unattractive people. It will also allow attractive people who didn't even get their individual IQ tested to feel even more snobby toward unattractive people. There are plenty of correlations when it comes to IQ. Tall people vs short people, men vs women, attractive vs unattractive and so on. Remember, race, like beauty, like height, is something people don't choose. Remember IQ is also something people don't get to choose. There will always be someone more privileged via the genetic lottery than you.

[@lucianp2616]

@@anonperson3972 Now, as far as genes go, you are correct to say on average a Kenyan will be a better long distance runner than a Nigerian, because we've seen plenty of races, and plenty of great Kenyan runners, so we know at least in Kenya, there is a gene somewhere in Kenya which is producing great long distance runners. This is probably related to muscle fiber type. But we aren't talking about Kenyan genetics as "black" genetics. That's the issue I have with it. Kenyans produce great long distance runners, Nigerians not so great at that so far. Both are black people. And we can see the same diversity among Europeans. Some Europeans have great long distance running genes, and some don't, and it has to do with whether you have more type 1 or type 2 muscle fibers. So this would mean, the white long distance runner, and the black long distance runner, have more genetically in common. And you could discuss the statistics of this, but I don't see why race matters.

[@rickandrygel913]

Proverbs defines stupid as rejecting correction. To me that seems to have nothing to do with eye kyu (the Al Gore rhythm is quick to delete a post that uses the s word and abbreviation together)

[@blu3_enjoy]

the al gore rhythm lol

[@nicolasjosephs9910]

God damn I have mad respect for MrHughes ! He has such sincere intellectual integrity.

[@somerandomguy7458]

Jated Diamond argues in his book Guns, Germs and Steel that Europeans and Asians got an enormous head start because of geography: some plants lend themselves to agriculture by producing energy-dense seeds which are easily harvested and which have a long shelf life after drying the Mediterranean climate was ideal for growing these plants Europe/Asia has a long east/west strip which allowed agriculture to propagate the Americas have regions with the same climate, but the dominant axis is north/south so those areas are separated and constrained; agriculture wasn't able to propagate the same way the Indigenous Australians could never have invented agriculture because the domesticatable plants simply weren't present, likewise with many other places agriculture meant that an individual could generate more food than they required, which enabled specialisation and a division of labour, which in turn enabled innovation certain types of animals lend themselves to domestication (especially important is a herding instinct); almost all these animals were present in Europe/Asia, and absent elsewhere domesticated livestock added to the food surplus, and added mobility living at close quarters with the domesticated livestock led to disease transmission, and after some time a "herd immunity" within the human population; the indigenous peoples who were later invaded had not acquired such immunity and were heavily impacted by diseases brought by colonists/conquerors On top of that, the alphabet was invented in the Mediterranean region whixh enabled transmission of knowledge, which enabled growth of knowledge, which imparted military abd commercial advantage With these advantages, the rest of the world didn't have a chance. At least, not for the first 10,000 years. But oil became incredibly important a bit over a century ago, and the existing empires were absolutely smashed by WWI. We're at the beginning of a new chapter. A Chinese diplomat was asked what he thought of the French Revolution and he replied, "It's too early to tell". That's probably pretty true.

[@alberg6290]

I admire and trust Coleman but his statement about the mayor of Oakland is quite misleading; The money which is targeted to Blacks and indigenous peoples comes from a private philanthropic source------the mayor had nothing to do with this decision. Of course, one is free to find that odious, but please don't give the impression that the mayor is dispensing public funds in a prejudicial manner.

[@craigsmith1443]

That may exonerate the mayor, but it doesn't change the nature of the dispensing of the funds.

[@southafricanizationofsociety20]

Then we should give money only to White People.

[@lzlz21213]

I’m half black half white and I’m 100% disagree without race mixing. Most people that do it have mental issues/Getting back at mommy and daddy.

[@michaelregis1015]

And you're basing this on what? Anecdotal experiences? I can just as easily say that most people that I've met who were in interracial relationships had neither mental illnesses, nor daddy issues, and were generally normal, which makes both of our opinions just as worthless. When you make broad generalised incredible claims about a group of people's mental state or thinking, you better have something to back that up other than your opinion. And I know that being mixed race you think that said opinion carries any weight, but I'm here to tell you it really doesn't. It doesn't make your opinion any less dumber than if a groyper had said it (or less ill-informed/racist), so you're not special in any capacity.

[@neildunford241]

Kudos for having the conversation. One of the toughest ideas to talk about.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

I shouldn't be talked about. It's racist and spreads division. Just like people claim critical race theory does.

[@neildunford241]

@@JohnSmith-hs1hn I think everything should be open to talk about. Its the best way to find out if a claim is valid or not - providing, those engaged in the conversation are genuinely open to being proved wrong, are willing to be guided by demonstrable, supported facts, (regardless of how uncomfortable that may potentially be) and are genuine about wanting to have their views guided by objectivity and fact, more than emotion & subjectivity.

[@Darksmoke_83]

So having a preference that believes you want your offspring and lineage to remain itself is racist. This is logically ridiculous. If that’s racism then racism truly means nothing.

[@josephl9619]

I agree that we are being forced into a corner here by people who are calling everything systemic racism. There is just no other way than to face the realities of racial differences. But I would love it if someone has better idea.

[@muskodine]

Here’s an idea…. call a spade a spade.

[@lucianp2616]

Who is "we"?

[@JoshDTech]

Most humans don't judge others humans individually. This is a ide effect of our evolutionary history when we lived in small tribal groups.

[@thadlincolnii7398]

I see Josh. So if Barack Obama the first african american to be President, came to the Presidency with the baggage Trump had, the gutter language, the 25 allegations of sexual misconduct including rape against him, three marriages, accusations Of paying off a stripper for her silence, suggesting the use Of bleach for COVID 19 patients, leaving office after only one term with the lowest approval rating in modern history, impeached twice, and backing the super election lie that led to an insurrection atmthe capitol . That his failures would NOT Be connected to his race by many people in this country? As you can see, Trumps incompetence is directed at him As an individual.

[@fartface5172]

@@thadlincolnii7398 whew... hate trump all you want but at least put the criticisms in your own words. you regurgitated every hit piece headline

[@thadlincolnii7398]

@@fartface5172 You guys are just too amazing with your support for this incompetent former President. First, l don't hate Trump. I dont know him. Second, you call my remarks "headlines" Okay, explain what part of what l said is false?

[@thadlincolnii7398]

@Pro ME the US So you suggest l,am incompetent. Yet you said even LESS than l,DID. What in the world are you talking about?

[@MeanBeanComedy]

@@thadlincolnii7398 Tell me you blindly believe whatever MSNBC & CNN bloviate apoplectically about each week without telling me you blindly believe whatever MSNBC & CNN bloviate apoplectically about each week.

[@ESCAGEDOWOODWORKING]

The categories used to group people into races are taken for granted. In the U.S., White includes all people originating from the many nations of Europe; North Africa; and the Middle East. Where does one race category start and end exactly? We know what the U.S. says on the matter. But that question about race can actually be answered by reading a bit about genetics, but I suspect some out there would find it unpalatable. Genetically, people are mixtures of mixtures going back into the distant past. There are people included in the White category today, that the average U.S. citizen may have consider suspect or unimaginable not too long ago. These categories appear to be based on social political reasons, and of course color. Categories are never questioned by some because it ruins the desired effect. Preference and bias is a mothertrucker.

[@jameslastname9737]

Coleman, respectfully, your remarks are a bit lazy. Those numbers you cite must be contextualized - both over time and across other groups - otherwise they don’t drive much insight. For instance, is that 26% figure up or down from 10, 20, 50, etc. years ago? What is the figure among other groups in the US, and outside of it? Also, Democrats and Republicans alone (and even combined) don’t represent a random sample of the American public. Furthermore, you cannot just presume a relationship between the IQ figures and marriage-attitudes figures without more data demonstrating one. This is intellectual misconduct.

[@jameslastname9737]

@@krazmazov3043 Thank you, Kraz, for your comment. I don’t know if you’re a troll or not, but, assuming not, let me clarify my remarks: 1) Coleman specifically cited the percentage of self-described Rep’s and Dem’s who were in the sample. They are not a representative sample. By definition. 2) Coleman is trying to suggest a causal relationship between the two response rates when there is only correlational data. That is what I am objecting to. I’m not saying there isn’t a relationship, I’m saying it’s not a very meaningful one. 3) What evidence am I dismissing? I’m not saying any of the numbers aren’t valid, I’m just saying that I don’t find them very insightful in isolation.

[@muskodine]

I wholeheartedly agree. His STATS were so very generic. There’s lies, damned lies, then there’s statistics. Be better than that bruh.

[@jameslastname9737]

@@krazmazov3043 Your assertions are wrong. My objections are not “very minor”, they are hugely significant and render his central point invalid. And I most definitely could not say this about “almost anything anyone says regarding a data set”. What does that even mean? Argumentation is about using empirical findings and sound reasoning to persuade people. It is possible to do this without committing logical errors and misusing statistical data. If you found Coleman persuasive here, then good for you. I did not. Nothing you’ve said here has changed that. And I assume the opposite is also true, so I propose we end this exchange now. The juice does not appear to be worth the squeeze.

[@treyriver5676]

Would not need a military... confusing perfect and reasonable.

[@matbbm]

In a world where beliefs in race superiority lead to things like slavery, the KKK, and Nazi Germany. Is there any reason to bring up such science that will undoubtedly influence more of such events? Like studying how jewish people suffer from more genetic diseases during 1936, are we seeking to unintentionally add fuel to fire of racism for the sake of fact and science? Why not study how pedophilia affects people born with autism people much higher. Or how sexual diseases are spread more with gay sex.

[@Bridge2110]

Slavery was always a thing. Racial supremacy isn't necessary for that. Nazi germany didn't use IQ tests, and they went primarily after the higher IQ group anyway. You're arguing against knowledge because people might use that knowledge badly. Are you against teaching evolution because eugenics might happen?

[@chuongnguyen5724]

Great thumbnail Coleman!

[@meropemerope6096]

ahahah

[@john12152]

I sometimes chuckle how complex of thought processes are needed to explain common sense conclusions

[@mikebetts2046]

Most likely because of the need to carefully couch ones words in order to not get burned at the stake.

[@craigsmith1443]

1. It takes much more time and effort to correct a wrong than it does to commit it. 2. Even when one carefully explains one's position, too many refuse to accept it and would rather see a villain and enemy in their midst than a potential friend saying a hard truth. It's easier to use napalm than build a school.

[@john12152]

@@craigsmith1443 here here! I'll add to that by saying it's easier to tear down a statue rather than erecting a complimentary plaque or accompanying statue demonstrating how we learned from our past to commemorate our progress & willingness to learn more...

[@bradspitt3896]

Because people are so cynical and predetermine your guilt, so you have to perfectly lay out your argument if you're going against the grain, while those same people are charitable to others who share their identity and hold those beliefs to lesser scrutiny.

[@azothothdestroyerofworlds1910]

@@bradspitt3896 I agree. The difference in argument between the two in the video is that one is at least honest about the nature of the problem. The current explanation for the disparities, that is allowed to take root without any explanation from black conservatives as to why there is this disparity, relies on blaming whites unequivocally for racism. This is done by allowing the notion that racism, which whites supposedly are solely creating, is responsible for all forms of inequality. So to suggest that revelations of IQ and race being connected is more harmful than we currently have is intellectual dishonesty among black conservatives, as the result of the current narrative creates more damage than any foreseeable consequences of simply recognising racial disparities in IQ or athleticism. The same consequences of IQ averages would also be felt regarding whites to East Asians, as East Asians have a higher IQ than whites by average. So the fact that the whites that promote IQ and its association to race, in the same way that they would with athleticism in association to race, show who is being the most impartial regarding this conversation. Simply because something looks less favourable to our self image in that area, doesn't give us the right to deny the need for the pursuit of truth, irrespective of if the revelation doesn't meet our social standards or contemporary beliefs. If we held the view that feelings mattered more than truth, we would put faith above reason and not question the nature of our existence through the sciences. People shouldn't be persecuted or put to the stake as they were in the past because certain individuals cannot handle criticism of their personal belief through critical evaluation in the same way that understanding racial differences shouldnt result in racial persecution of races.

[@philosopher1a]

If a person looks at the globe you will see that the planet is really segregated . and is NOT only according to race. Look at Europe and Asia etc Borders separating same races of peoples.. it has to do with culture .. ONLY here we make it a totally racial thing . we do have differences and we all want continuity of our people. OUr Differences is what makes the world interesting

[@LughSamildanach]

Highly recommend reading "Human Accomplishment" to anyone with the ability to think about things in an objective manner.

[@LughSamildanach]

@Lieber Tiger the book is a fantastic way to really grasp the overall way society has developed over the last 2500 years, the specifics in terms of people and locations and why those people and locations. While it doesn't directly give you the "what" in terms of what you should do, it gives you enough to come to the decision yourself. On top of that, it's just a beautiful analysis of history. I loved it so much I tracked down an purchased a physical copy. In a better world the book should be given in early-mid schooling to everyone.

[@markteague8889]

African Americans are by and large no longer a racially “pure” group having been interbred and mixed with white Europeans and Native Americans for nearly half a millennium. Likewise, white Americans are no longer a racially “pure” group having been interbred with Africans and Native Americans. So, it is difficult to observe phenotypes we might ascribe to those groups based on the evolutionary landscapes in which they evolved. A point that is worth noting is that every extent species is highly evolved and fit to not only survive, but thrive in the habitats in which they evolved.

[@IrishIwasJewish]

most white americans have little to no black or native ancestry. Even if they did, it doesnt change anything. Intermediate populations like hispanics have iqs in between native americans and european average. Their phenotype is also a mix of the two and largely varies depending on the ancestry of individual.

[@NanakiRowan]

Correct. There are no "pure races". Never have been, as any population geneticist is quick to point out.

[@DwarfFortress-yw5ki]

Sounds like mutt cope. I've been DNA tested. I am completely white and happy about it!