Room EQ for POWERFUL and PAINLESS Sound

[@samsonbyte]

Great, practical demonstration! I’ve been studying the equal loudness contour as well as some psychology of sound for a few years now. It’s difficult to communicate the need for this method of EQ along with an appropriate volume level (lower than most audio engineers are comfortable with) in a meaningful way. I like to say, we have thoughts about what we see and feelings about what we hear. That curve will give you a great sound (more hi-fi, less rock concert) and greatly reduce volume discomfort for most people. Thanks for the video!

[@DrLumpyDMus]

"...That curve will give you a great sound (more hi-fi, less rock concert)..." He's mixing for what is essentially a rock concert.

[@samsonbyte]

@@DrLumpyDMus A fellow old sound guy I see! You're right. Let me rephrase: More like listening to your stereo at home than being aggressed by the harsh 2.5K of JBL horns first thing in the.morning. 😅 To your point, I'd say Sunday morning volume issues are context problems, not sound problems. Most of the worship industry songs played in church today were written and produced to be played in large venues and just don't work in a 500 seat room, but good luck explaining that to the worship leader. 😇

[@Joejoe-nt3gc]

I have to say… i tried it at an event with 500 people event. At 0 db at Master fader. It was loud but not annoyingly loud. And it seems for me is much enjoyable experience for the ears.

[@collabworship]

Glad to hear! Sounds exactly like our results.

[@Joejoe-nt3gc]

@@collabworship … i did had to add some minimal gain on my subgroup to boost a bit of volume… but i reallly like it… i did a bypass on eq.. and being flat on all freq is harsh in my ear.. thanks for sharing!

[@AlanHamiltonAudio]

Why did you choose a GEQ for system EQ versus a more precise PEQ... and also why not address some of this at the system level (outside of the console) if you're going to be removing wide swaths of frequency range anyway? IOW, that's a lot of EQ going on and it seems a change in system balance could've been a more forgiving way to accomplish this. When you first started I was thinking it was going to be a case of lowering the level of the horns in the system (which in some systems might be out of the user's control). But as you continued on, it even fell down into the mids/low mids... so even with only a 2 way system with subs and passive (or processed/active tops that might themselves be biamped but don't allow any user changes to the mid v high balance), it's still likely dropping the tops (mids and hi's) a few dB would minimized the EQ usage. Or conversely, increasing the level of the subs. Although granted, you might be at the limits of the subs as-is and increasing them would render the system gain off. Also, kind of doubtful that 16K cut was really necessary. That was probably more an anomaly of your mic/room/ placement or something outside of the system. Or if it was truly beneficial and something actually in the system then wouldn't a LPF been a more effective way to address it? But this takes us back to the question of why the GEQ in the first place?

[@brain0424]

Agreed. Based on the starting measurement, it appears that the signal from the mains needed to be attenuated by about 3-6db to get it tracking closer to the target curve. After that, you may have needed a low shelf to tame the low frequencies a bit. The level of the subs looks to be ok based on the graph.

[@jessecoonen7881]

Bingo

[@jessecoonen7881]

Not to mention the phase destruction, that GEQ does to overall coherency.

[@lilgbolahan]

As much as it is good to know the technical stuff, the listeners/congregation don't care to be honest what kind of EQ we used. All they want is the result. If it sounds good, it is good. You just need to find the one that works for you. ✌

[@shortygordy]

@@lilgbolahanthis isn't a matter of preference. This isn't creativity. System tuning is a science - physics. There IS a wrong way to do it. Take a quick look at some Google images representing the same curve with a GEQ and then a PEQ. One of them is smooth and the other is notched with overlapping frequencies. Take a wild guess which one will be a phasing nightmare, sound bad, and be a problem for the congregation?

[@renaldybaltodano9610]

That is very true, it has happened to me in the church where I feel that I have to lower the frequencies from 3 to 4 khz in the EQ, since they are very aggressive on the Beringer console, to put it specifically, and just as it feels pleasant for the ear, excellent video will help us a lot

[@seriykot1]

Thanks, will try this out!!

[@thepianopreacher2496]

Very educative sir.... Thanks so much ❤

[@largiemastermind8358]

I can't wait to try this. Can this be used for stage monitors as well?

[@jblmaglite1]

Yes and no, and it really depends on what the monitors are doing. In general, it is nice to have monitors tonally balanced to the system so the bleed into the audience (or "front fill") isn't as noticeable. However, this must also be balanced with what the on-stage talent needs to hear, phase issues especially at the low frequencies, and bleed into the microphones. I would not recommend this target curve for monitors as a high priority.

[@bryanrodriguez2255]

I did this inside eq setting that qsc has on the k12.2, I used the buttons and circle knob to adjust and it sounds great, is that a good option if I don't have digital mixer ?

[@collabworship]

For sure! That's a great option.

[@samankumara7404]

Good sir

[@konderlivsk2157]

Which program do you use? I'm very curious!

[@collabworship]

Open Sound Meter

[@ScottBrown-h3w]

After setting the corrected curve, would any adjustments be required once the audience fills the room?

[@collabworship]

An audience will definitely change things, but mostly improves the sound. It's unrealistic to be able to make adjustments with the audience present though. You'd have to ask them all to sit there and listen to obnoxiously loud pink noise while you fine tune things lol. Besides, most people are doing sound check with an empty room, so then you'd just run into the same issue in reverse.

[@soundfreak8892]

I will say if you guys have the option in purchasing a system processor like for example a very popular one like a Dbx driverack pa2. It is the proper way to tune a soundsystem. When I got to a church there had been a previous guy who installed the sound system for some reason he had a dbx driverack but decided to still eq it from FOH and run subs from FOH which i didn’t mind but it defeated the whole purpose of having a system processor. something just wasn’t right it sounded way to nazle and no matter how many times I would try to start from scratch I would get the same results. So i decided to do all the processing on the dbx driverack and it was a night a day difference! Had it do autoeq and after that i tuned it even more based on ear. If I wanted more sub I’d just open the app for the driverack on an iPad. And also if you use this method at the end it’s worth mentioning you will have to turn up the main gain on the eq to compensate for the gain loss.

[@collabworship]

We'll definitely be trying that out at our next building. For now, we just wanted to find the cheapest/simplest way to get the room EQ'd and sounding much better and this method has worked wonders for us. It's a method that most small churches can try out.

[@soundfreak8892]

absolutely and I’m on board with you guys anything is better than nothing!

[@munirwerlin]

1:10 Is that Fletcher Munson Curve?

[@collabworship]

Yes

[@kaneda11]

Great job, how do I insert the reference lines to the software

[@collabworship]

You'll find everything you need to get stuff setup and running in our Room EQ course: collaborateworship.com/room-eq-made-simple/

[@jblmaglite1]

Why did you choose to use a multiband EQ instead of a parametric EQ? Doesn't this lead to more phasing problems and spikes in response since the Qs are relatively high at each band and don't overlap? Also, why address this at the board when you can do it in the amps or system processor? Where did you place your measurement mic, and are you certain this is a representative sound for the largest number of seats in the venue?

[@brandonschulte160]

This 👆! My fear with these one step videos is they leave out the context for making well informed system design decisions. I fear that a well meaning video like this can cause more issues that result from a lack of training of fundamentals

[@eternalcustomchannel]

@@brandonschulte160 If every single video had to first lay down all the fundamentals, you'd never get anywhere, we would just have a million videos explaining to us WHY we should EQ a room (because that's the first important step isn't it?). Sometimes you just have to assume that the audience you're addressing has access to all the foundational skills required to do this. I mean, he didn't talk about how to setup anything, or how to use an EQ, or how to use a rotary knob, yet that would be a necessary skill. I don't think it's as big of a problem as any of you are making it out to be. Perhaps it's just difficult for people to see how easily accessible their 'expertise' is becoming...I think this video is a great solution for small churches who don't have massive budgets to pay an integrator every time they change a piece of equipment in their system for instance. This can get any semi-knowledgeable, semi-capable sound engineer in a ball park without spending precious church budget. No gatekeeping required.

[@abimaelmartell]

parametric has 4 bands, vs 31 on the GEQ. I guess you know the answer about the phasing issues. Doing this at the board helps you when you don't have an external pa processor, but of course an external processor would be better. Not sure why you need to know his mic placement 🤣. By the title of the video, this is not a step by step guide, he's just sharing an Room EQ Curve that he liked.

[@jblmaglite1]

@@abimaelmartell Several systems have more than four bands on the buses, matrixes, and mains. But even with four bands, this could be 90% completed with a high shelf at 400 Hz, a dip at 3kHz, and two bands to spare. With chapter titles like "Technique", "Watch me", and "How to accomplish this yourself", I think it's very reasonable to assume this is intended to be a step-by-step guide. All I'm saying is, some very small changes to this video could have made it a much stronger piece of educational content.

[@jblmaglite1]

@@eternalcustomchannel I don't think it's an issue of gatekeeping. Quite the opposite, I think it's an issue of understanding the intended audience. If a semi-knowledgeable, semi-capable sound engineer shows up with a reference mic and prior knowledge of how to use Smaart or OSM, was this video useful? Maybe; probably just the dip at 3kHz, which does not always show up in the most common target traces. Conversely, if a (presumably) less than semi-knowledgeable, semi-capable engineer shows up recognizing a tonal balance issue in the system but does not know how to address it, was this video useful? Maybe not, because they now need to figure out what software was being used, how to setup the software, etc.

[@alamakluke]

What we see in the camera footage is the magnitude view in Open Sound Meter correct?

[@collabworship]

Correct

[@alamakluke]

@@collabworship thanks for the quick reply. Is there a way that you can save that EQ curve (yellow) and the magenta line (equal loudness curve) so that we can upload them both into Open Source Meter? I am trying to figure it out myself but not being succesful :( thx in advance.

[@collabworship]

@@alamakluke You have to adjust settings to get the lines in there. We go over all of it here: collaborateworship.com/room-eq-made-simple/

[@franciscocruz9246]

Has this equalization curve been tested outdoors?

[@collabworship]

We have not tested it outdoors.

[@KTKPRO]

Quick question: How do/can I apply this eq to my mix? To specific channels? To a specific group of instruments? To vocals only? To the main stereo output channel eq? To all channels individually? To effects channels?

[@collabworship]

To the main stereo output.

[@KTKPRO]

@@collabworship Thanks :)

[@Germanomoses]

How do you incorporate that KYY screen with the mixer and how is it configured?

[@collabworship]

Mounted with one of these: amzn.to/3O7LCUY Running software on M1 Mac Mini (mounted underneath the table)

[@Germanomoses]

@collabworship Thanks my friend

[@thanosklf]

Can i EQ my room with XR18 ??

[@miraclebakossa5641]

I wanna know too cos I use mR18

[@collabworship]

Yep, you can use one of your 4 FX slots as a Stereo Graphic EQ inserted onto the Main LR

[@jblmaglite1]

@@thanosklf If I recall correctly, the main output has a built-in parametric EQ. I would recommend using that. The problem with using a GEQ is that it requires one of your precious few FX slots, is generally less precise, and can introduce significant phasing issues.

[@danielgomez1682]

Hi ! Great video man ! Do you have cheat sheets Room EQ Curve on a TXT - file so I can import that in the program ? Thanks for the help! Blessings!

[@collabworship]

Check out the course! Runs you through all the settings to get it setup properly in Open Sound Meter: collaborateworship.com/room-eq-made-simple/

[@FusionSoundProduction]

How does one obtain equal loudness curve to into open sound meter so i can reference eq to it? TIA

[@collabworship]

We cover all the setup in our course: collaborateworship.com/room-eq-made-simple/

[@toby4753]

is this curve also any good for a small home studio?

[@jblmaglite1]

Good is in the ear of the beholder! Generally speaking, home recording/mastering studios will be flat or attempt to replicate the response of less capable systems like cheap headphones, car audio, or smartphones.

[@collabworship]

I wouldn't utilize this on a home studio. Assuming you have reference speakers, they should already have a flat frequency response so they are not coloring the audio in any way. You're also most likely listening to them in close proximity, so the room should't have much effect on the frequency response either. However, if you're room has a lot of natural reverb, It'd definitely be a good idea to acoustically treat it.

[@pakoyvlogofficial6011]

how can we do this? we have only basic analog mixer from our church… Thank you

[@AlbertAngmor]

Get a measurement mic and software like Room EQ Wizard and an external 31 band eq if your analog mixer doesn't have it.

[@jblmaglite1]

One way you can do this is to setup a computer with Open Sound Meter to send a pink noise signal to your mixer - maybe send it to an AUX in with no channel EQ. You can plug a USB reference microphone into that computer. Depending on how your system measures, and exactly which mixer you have, you can use the parametric EQs on the main or a mix bus OR you can insert some type of EQ or system processor between your mixer and amps.

[@collabworship]

The software is Open Sound Meter (opensoundmeter.com/en/download) And you'll need an outboard 31 band eq (sweetwater.sjv.io/qznZJb) You'll also need a reference microphone (amzn.to/4fGnKmV)

[@preacher95]

I am a little confused-On one of your other videos-you showed how to EQ a room using the Behringer X32 and this curve was not mentioned. Which one is to be used?

[@collabworship]

The other video is a more simplified method but still works just fine. This video is in improvement that utilizes more tools. If you have the means to do this method, it's better. If not, the old videos method works just fine as well.

[@preacher95]

@@collabworship thank you. Our room is sounding much better because of this video.

[@collabworship]

@@preacher95 Love to hear it!

[@victorlacruz2898]

I'll give it a try ASAP and report back

[@collabworship]

How'd it go?

[@soundxajay]

which software your using for measure the eq

[@collabworship]

Open Sound Meter

[@soundxajay]

@@collabworship thanks

[@priyopw]

is it based on Fletcher and Munson graph?

[@teganburgess]

The "equal loudness curve" is the inverse form of the Fletcher Muson. Basically showing what needs to be put into the room to be heard the same vs the F-MC being the lack of sound we hear naturally. Today we / I follow the ISO 226 standard.

[@collabworship]

What @teganburgess said

[@VICTOR.TAVAREZ]

Hey, I got the course for this but you didn’t explain where you put your mic, you said you but it 5 ft high and at the listeners position But…. 1. Do I put the mic to the right side PA and mute the left then do the other side with subs? 2. Do I put the mic in the center of the room in stereo and do it there with the subs?

[@jblmaglite1]

Really depends on how much time you want to spend on this and how perfect you want to get it. If you have five minutes, place your reference mic halfway back in the room and about 1/3 room width away from a side wall (left or right doesn't matter). Play the full system and do a quick adjustment to your favorite target curve. If you have five hours, yes, test your right side and left side independently with reference mics at positions near the front, middle, and back of both sides. Capture reference images for each measurement *before* tuning; tune based on an average of all these measurements. You should probably check for phase coherence between the mains and subs using the front measurements first.

[@collabworship]

Center of the listening area in-between the two speakers (both on). Preferably you want it placed where the speakers are directly pointing (the middle of the cone of sound). Shoot me an email if you have any other questions: [e-mail]

[@jblmaglite1]

@@collabworship Agree to disagree. I would say that the center of the room is a unique position and not representative of the sound the majority of listeners in the room will hear. This is true for both stereo imaging, overall volume, and phase coherence. Tuning the system, especially with limited time, is all about what will best serve the largest portion of listeners.

[@largiemastermind8358]

I have another question. 🙂What about that dip around 300Hz? Should that be flatter or is that as good as it gets? Also looking at the frequencies below 250Hz. Could those be smoother or are they ok like that? Trying to understand what I see and I’m a little bit of a perfectionist. I can see myself trying to get everything as smooth as the target trace bar. 😁

[@johndaniel232]

We target the EQ being flat but in a live setting once you add people and their ambient noise and absorption, plus sometimes walking mics and other stuff, a lot of times I wind up having strange little notches for a certain frequency or two that "sound" better but look strange. Don't mix by eye, mix by ear.

[@josemejias2722]

So.. After this all your old videos of eq the room are wrong?

[@collabworship]

Nope, same concept. Just more information to work with.

[@FortzAyo]

Can I use this for my KZbin channel ?

[@collabworship]

What do you mean?

[@FortzAyo]

@ can I use it for my KZbin mix at church ?

[@FortzAyo]

@ I went to church today to try it sounds warm I like it

[@collabworship]

@@FortzAyo If you mean on a live stream mix, then probably a no. If you are having global EQ problems on the mix you could try to find it and correct it with PEQ filters. But most EQ issues on your live stream mix are most likely going to come from individual channels needing EQ adjustments

[@PocketDelicious]

3khz dip... Thank you Rick Beato lol.

[@johniebeats]

Kinda similar curves Rick and that dude theirs is a kilar monster

[@collabworship]

👍🏻

[@Joejoe-nt3gc]

Can it work on a 500 people room??? “LIVE”??

[@collabworship]

Sure can!

[@ImranMustafa-cm4mt]

How we can find feedback or bad sound during the show please tell me One more thing can you tell me about the spectrum app is this good app for sound technician I am new in sound filled please help me

[@jblmaglite1]

To find feedback in real time, you could use this type of software (Open Sound Meter, Smaart, etc.) and a reference mic. Keep it open on a screen at all times. Use the Spectrum plot, which shows the relative magnitude of each frequency. (The setup here relies on the Magnitude plot, which shows something slightly different.) If you see and hear feedback/ringing, look for a rising, unexpected spike in the plot.

[@ImranMustafa-cm4mt]

@ Thnk you bro

[@collabworship]

@jblmaglite1 gave some great tips. I'll add that if you are experiencing feedback during a show/service, the quickest way to stop it is to notch down your main fader slightly. Not enough to cause a dramatic change in volume. Decreasing it just a little should stop feedback. Then, try to replicate the problem during a rehearsal when you actually have the time to hunt it down, and use the method @jblmaglite1 explained.

[@gavinberkeley4330]

What is that tool that you’re using to show that info in real time?

[@PocketDelicious]

Yes. Without that reference it'll just be a crap shoot. Even with an RTA we'd still need it for reference I'd think.

[@jblmaglite1]

Open Sound Meter, a free (donationware) alternative to Smaart. Using it in this way would require a computer and a reference microphone.

[@collabworship]

What @jblmaglite1 said

[@nathnaeltsegaye4724]

And an interface for analog mixers

[@aeshultz55]

So this is an FFT trace from a two channel OSM system, correct?

[@jblmaglite1]

Seems to be, yes.

[@8E8Studios]

How would this work with Aux-Fed Subs?

[@jblmaglite1]

Good question! This is one of the issues some people have with using aux subs in the first place, rather than letting a system processor control everything. Assuming you have a strong preference for keeping aux subs and you are sure they are time/phase aligned with the mains, I think the easiest solution is adjusting the EQ for the mains above the crossover frequency using your PEQ tools, then adjusting levels below the crossover point using output levels on the sub amps.

[@jblmaglite1]

Forgot to mention, you may still need some PEQ filtering to deal with resonances in the low frequencies, but overall levels of sub vs main can be helped along with amp controls.

[@collabworship]

What @jblmaglite1 said

[@jessecoonen7881]

Truthfully, you really just basically balanced your PA mains with your subs using GEQ that’s a lot of EQ that would have been less EQ had the overall level of each element of the PA be volume matched.

[@collabworship]

It accomplished a little more than that...

[@jessecoonen7881]

@ yes, you of course no doubt did some tonal shaping, but most of what you did with EQ was basically turning down the main a healthy 4-6db.

[@MaksimBabin]

Not sure about that 8k boost. It'll be terrible for feedback, plus very sibilant. Best to stick with X curve.

[@collabworship]

There's no 8k boost with our curve (green line). The equal loudness curve has an 8k boost.

[@chadgrieser8021]

Would LOVE to have subs for our FOH system.... but..... we don't so kick and bass are so lacking.... when we push, it gets harsh without having the low end.... :( and no budget for them either....

[@collabworship]

Definitely worth saving up for then! Try to check out used options as well. Check out FB Marketplace and reverb.com

[@HenryDalcke]

You have all the expensive software, but you are EQ-ing by hand? Why don't you use "SoundID Reference"? It measures even room reflections.

[@wallycastro3]

Literally, you just had most of the base line over 9db and dipped the mids to 0db creating a gap of at list 9 to 10db on your lows. That will transliterate bad as for equalizing bass and kick drums against low filter cut on mic. Array alignment should always be as flat as possible and individual channels equalized as needed, otherwise you will never have the correct frequency response.

[@collabworship]

I get what you're saying, but there's some back-end setup that we explain in the course that you are missing in your thought process.

[@OttoL]

Why not just lower level of hi-mid speakers? This is so wrong way to do this.

[@collabworship]

It's doing more than just lower the overall volume of the tops.... And we are aware that it's not the absolute most ideal way to EQ a room. We share this method as a simple and effective way to improve room EQ for beginner sound techs (which is what you find at most churches).

[@slayerslayer7805]

Without a real FFT messurement with phasegraph & magnitude and an average of multiple mic-positions this is not working and every room will sound diverend. With an experience of 15 years, you should know this.

[@collabworship]

You're missing the point of this. We're not sharing the absolute most ideal way to EQ a room. We share this method as a simple and effective way to improve room EQ for beginner sound techs (which is what you find at most churches). Bottom line... it improves the sound, and is doable for most of our audience.

[@slayerslayer7805]

@collabworship i don't think that this is a good way for beginners. That way they learn to use the eyes and not the ears and this ist totaly wrong. If you don't have the right equipment and know how, you make it much worse than without any EQing.

[@collabworship]

@@slayerslayer7805 Agree to to disagree

[@markjastrzebski2065]

No no no. You are creating a phase nightmare. The pink noise and an rta has no relation to time

[@collabworship]

You're missing the point of this. We're not sharing the absolute most ideal way to EQ a room. We share this method as a simple and effective way to improve room EQ for beginner sound techs (which is what you find at most churches). Bottom line... it improves the sound, and is doable for most of our audience.

[@chrisbetts6990]

I love this channel, but this is a terrible video.. maybe team up with Michael Curtis to make a more informative video?

[@collabworship]

You're missing the point of this. We're not sharing the absolute most ideal way to EQ a room. We share this method as a simple and effective way to improve room EQ for beginner sound techs (which is what you find at most churches). Bottom line... it improves the sound, and is doable for most of our audience. Side note: We love Michael and his content. He's sharing methods for a different audience than we are trying to help.

[@romawkin]

NOOOOO

[@collabworship]

YESSSSS