STOP RINGING OUT THE ROOM || Busting myths about live sound EQ

[@TempoDrift1480]

Even if this dude's mic was off I would still know what he's saying.

[@dj_ramo]

lol

[@33kartracer33]

😃

[@BjorgenEatinger]

LOL, right?

[@nigell.8705]

😂😂

[@eavalos29]

😂

[@scottrobinson9752]

So there are occasions that I do shows in difficult environments. I have been a sound engineer for 33yrs, and have been a touring engineer, a venue house guy, a church engineer, and all the rest of it... An example of a difficult environment was doing an outdoor festival, in a downtown street. On one side of the street was an old historic train station, mostly constructed of wood. On the other side of the street was a tall (Probably 10 story) bank building, with glass being the only visible surface on the outside of the building. The act was a 5 piece rock band with 4 vocals...with drums, bass, guitars, and keys rounding out the inputs. We loaded in at 7:30 am on a cool crisp fall morning, soundchecking at 9am while it was still cool out. Using the main Eq, to sort the differing architectural surfaces, was crucial. The end result were drastically different eq curves, from Left to Right, in order to get some sort of resemblance between the two sides. By the time the band took the stage at 8pm... it was 30 degrees warmer and much more humid out (plus the addition of thousands of warm bodies). While we had achieved a good stage sound with monitors, the house sound went to crap right out of the gate. And the FOH inputs were adequately dialed in via strip eqs, during soundcheck. The house eq became everything to me in those first few moments of the first song, in correcting the environmental changes that had occurred throughout the day. The house eq was the quickest way to correct the entire rig, in a matter of seconds. And because the inputs were already dialed optimally, at the channels, everything came together at the same time, by adjusting one piece of equipment.

[@AttawayAudio]

Great job adapting to an adverse situation!

[@fattyjaybird7505]

Exactly, we played in a cement box last night 🙄 the singers mic wasnt having it, i started notching and it started sounding thin, so i started again, went to house and dipped the high mids slightly, gone

[@hellofx]

Tuning the PA in the venue is as important as me having to have sex 3 times a week . . . telling sound guys not to tuning the room is on par with flat-earthers.

[@Shtibdab]

Something I started doing on X Air and M32 consoles is sending things to busses and sending those busses to the mains. Say vocals, I'll ring out those problem frequencies on the vocal bus; this keeps the Main EQ unaffected AND the channel itself can be sent to monitors without that any notches applied.

[@mayumikidstv3130]

😁a1q

[@user-xe7um4pv8i]

Yeah, I just use subgroups for mic groups.

[@craigjasper1274]

I disagree. If done right, ringing out a room can be very useful. If a frequency is feeding back it is normally because the acoustic properties of the room means there is an abundance of that particular frequency (assuming the microphone and speaker placement are correct and feedback is not being caused due to improper setup). By turning the ‘problem’ frequencies down on a master graphic EQ, you are simply not amplifying those frequencies as much as other frequencies. In essence, you are trying to create a net flat EQ. Yes, will affect all input sources, but that won’t matter as you have EQ’d the room.

[@PanRider939]

Ringing out the room doesn't find problem frequencies but problem sources. You could EQ that frequency out of the room but then you also take it out on sources that are not causing a problem. If you want to EQ a flat response for the room it's better to use a reference microphone, such as the Berhinger ECM8000, (there are others) and pink noise. Then when you turn up front of house whatever rings out is the problem source, EQ or fix that, rather than the room. Personally, I EQ'd the room as described. Then during practice get everyone setup, a nice mix front of house and during a robust part turn up front of house to about +10db over normal. If nothing feeds back I'm good to go, if something feeds back, isolate it and deal with that source only.

[@caseykittel]

yeah. click bait. he presents a limited model and gives random examples for almost 8 minutes. I have 31 band eqs on my monitor wedges. his suggestion to not us eq sounds like he assumes in ear monitors are being used and the feedback is coming from the mains. I agree with him to a degree if this is the case - wait okay. but he gets to this at 8:53. he could have said this sooner. hehe.

[@vedasticks]

@@caseykittel theres better solutions to feedback, note that he mentions back in the old days.... ie anologue. we had just a graphic eq and channel eq. sstems also were terrible. you set them up t get the best vocal sound and volume. pa systems have rogressed massively aswell as signal processing. if you eq a system to remove feedback your effectng the whole mix. we want consistancy, ideally yesterdays ix with very little adjustment will sound the same today in a different venue with the same system and mics. even wth a different system, yesterdays mix can sound close. pa systems if eqd correctly to be balanced, any feedback should be dealt with elsewhere. main eq is last resort. after 20 years of live sound i havnt rung out systems in probably 10 possibly more years. if a mic feedback, its either a singer pointing a mic at a speaker or an incredibly quiet singer with a loud band

[@caseykittel]

@@vedasticks I would usually ring the monitors in tricky rooms - with the mains off. But if you are using in ears or you have a good room and good equipment hooked up properly, there’s no need to ring.

[@CaryGlennDavis]

That's a very old technique developed long before the digital age. It is no longer necessary to ring out a room the way you're describing. You will definitely affect instruments that are in those frequency ranges! you punishing the entire band for a couple of frequencies that can be taken care of in a much more natural way.

[@JackMasonLive]

This!! And to add to it I only partially agree with lowering the eq frequencies that are feed-backing as the only solution. Because even if you tackle exclusively the mic, you might still be removing frequencies that make the overall tone bright and pleasant.

[@MK-gs7nn]

If it’s feeding, it probably means that the system, coupled with the acoustics, has too much of the problem frequency.

[@csdarlington86]

TIP: Send your Main L-R to Matrices. Send your vocal channel to a Bus(Subgroup). Take your vocal and vocal bus out of the Main L-R. Send your Vocal to the L-R Matrices bypassing the Main L-R So now your Vocal Bus and main L-R are summed into the same Matrices giving separate control of Vocal and the rest of the band. So whatever compression eq ect... used on the main mix(band minus vocal) doesnt affect the Vocal and vice versa. A comp on your L-R wont squash the vocal, leaving more headroom for volume. Now Eq vocal channel to taste and remove feedback frequencies on the Vocal bus if needed. This trick has made my life and mixes much better.

[@AttawayAudio]

Nice! I would have used groups on the console before the stereo bus, but that's a new way I hadn't thought of before!

[@kainoaliu]

This is a very interesting method. Is there a reason why you would not separate vocals and the band into different groups? I normally would have three groups; Vocals, Strings (includes keys), Percussion (drums, cajon, bangle). That way, you can adjust EQ on each group, and Comp the group if needed. THEN I would send it to the L-R main, where I can add further EQ and Comp on the entire mix if needed. As for the Matrix, I would use it for the side fills (adjusting delay) and lobby speakers.

[@rjpimprov]

Yup. This.

[@MrAwesomeSaucesome]

This is gold!

[@jhunn061]

This is what I'm using... maybe best to do a pink noise for the mains, then put all mics into a group and EQ separately. Music sources go directly to mains and subs to matrix

[@lalremruata_chongmang]

12:36 its important to note: not all graphic EQs are the same. some have straight lines between the bands, some simply jump in volume between bands (which causes a lot of ringing), and some work as individual bell filters as shown in the video causing discrete "hills"

[@AttawayAudio]

great tip :)

[@martinczupka284]

I have no idea what you're talking about. What do you mean straight lines where? What is jump in volume?

[@lalremruata_chongmang]

@@martinczupka284 graphic EQs manipulate the volume at many frequency ranges, which we call "bands" of frequencies many graphic EQs dont disclose how they change the volume between bands. some of them tend to change it very abruptly and suddenly, while some of them have their volume change smoothly between bands. the former tends to cause a lot of ringing (temporal blurring) which just means sounds such as clapping will have additional frequencies ringing before or after the actual clap. Edit: ive seen this kind of EQ being used in Wavelet for android. the latter is much more desirable, and its what is used in EQs like EqualizerAPO for windows other graphic EQs simply divide the input into different bands and then add them together, instead of changing a band individually. this type of EQ will typically cause a hilly volume profile, or frequency response which is the worst IMO

[@lalremruata_chongmang]

in the frequency-amplitude graph

[@uberchops]

Am I missing something? Your description of using room EQ to mellow out resonant/reflecting frequencies is exactly what "ringing out the room" means to me. And the GEQ shelf example isn't analogous to this situation. If I'm ringing out, I WANT surgical removal of resonant frequencies, and to affect as few bands as possible, all without having to copy that EQ to every mic channel. Most GEQs also have a Q knob and adjustable frequency. Often I find the hot spot is no more than 2 or 3 Hz wide. And you don't need to slice out the entire frequency; a cut of 1.5-3 dB is usually enough to prevent feedback, at least for talking heads.

[@AttawayAudio]

Hey if it works for you 👍

[@jsalvatori]

This exactly. It's about removing problematic frequencies from the room, not about stopping feedback on one specific mic. That's what channels and busses are for. Ringing out the room is about setting the system for the room, exactly as it says.

[@kooistradurk]

@@jsalvatori Yup, Every room has build-ups of certain frequencies due to the physical shape and reflective surfaces.

[@Chadwick-br2di]

I was just an A1 and room lead for GHAPP conference in D.C. 6 talking heads and one at a podium. Originally ringing out the room had no issues. Once the room was filled gotnsone feedback and literally just had to cut out about 2 db. Exactly what you said.im pretty new to A1 so still learning as I go.

[@atcordice]

I lazy as an audio engineer.. I try to use very little eq and processing as much as possible. Do more placement of stage monitors and the main speakers. To eliminate feedback.

[@AttawayAudio]

That's not lazy. It's solving the problem at the source as much as possible.

[@tlb2732]

You make some interesting and valid points. But in my opinion, the environment you're working in and actually show in your video is much closer to a studio environment than it is to the average venue a live band and/or a sound technician encounters from gig to gig. I perform frequently at my church over a simple but more than adequate digital sound system. It was professionally installed by a very reputable company. They rung out the mains the day of installation and saved the scene. I've been performing for 40+ years. In my experience, ringing out the monitors is mandatory before sound check even begins. And ringing out the mains is also very important for shows any longer than 20 to 30 minutes. Most lives shows are much longer and excitement and intensity usually increases as the performance unfolds, resulting in a gradual but definite increase in volume. An FOH system that goes into feedback at the climax of a show can ruin the event for everyone. Ringing out removes that likelihood. It provides peace of mind and freedom to perform to those on stage.

[@dighawaii1]

Yep! I worked for a hard working cover band as FOH, ~150 shows a year, venue change daily, and I can promise you, ringing out the monitors was critical, as well as the room. We load in, setup, and use program material (mainstream pop was the live material, so mainstream pop masters as program material), to massage the mains into the room, or outdoor venue. Many venues were half-operational, serving customers or too close to door open for us to use pink noise and measurements. Instead, you play pre-recorded music and ring-out the room. Then a quick sound check. It's a very common practice on the B and C circuits. As far as Churches are concerned, I can't imagine the horror.

[@Kuuuks]

I’ve always had issues with using GEQ to remove feedback from the PA cause you end up fixing one mic and the rest of the instruments suffer cable now your main PA has frequencies removed etc. Great video I’m glad someone else thought about this…

[@roberthaley1]

Nothing wrong with ringing out the room for particular mic sources. With the flexibility of digital consoles these days, it’s super easy for instance to send vocal mics, Lavs to a mix first where you can then insert a graphic eq. Route that mix to your master bus. Parametric on the channel alone will likely not be enough to notch out any resonant frequencies. It takes practice to ring out at a comfortable level and not having it run away on you. Also ideal to familiarize yourself with frequencies and ear training to quickly identify and eliminate.

[@JayarBass]

its all about the low end... :) i actually started a t-shirt line called "buy bigger speakers" as well as wrote a song about it... cuz this is my mantra :)

[@BSP1822]

@9:20 there is no video link for feedback FYI

[@medovasar2072]

I have QU-16 mixer. Would I be able to ring out our systems with 4 Bose M12 spks and 3 AKG C7 mics, by using mic channel PEQ instead of the system LR GEQ or PEQ? The mic channel PEQ contains 4 frequency bands. If I ran out of frequency bands to ring out all one mic frequencies, than how can I handle to adjust vocal sound for each mic channel if I use that channel PEQ to ring out? Note this setup is used in church. Thank you for any feedback!

[@frankbonarrigo6086]

What about frequency shifting? Isn’t that how it was done back in the day?

[@mickeyjimhickey]

Wow! That graphic vs vs parametric eq example was great!

[@AttawayAudio]

Eye-opening, right?

[@donovanhill7367]

I see the main GEQ as something to fix specific problems with the house sound (system/room EQ). It should be the LAST piece of gear you adjust. Fortunately, the system I'm currently working on has 6 PEQs in each amplifier channel, and 4 PEQs in each crossover output channel. I'll be using those first.

[@kenph1956]

I lay the groundwork beginning with the overall system response. First, I make sure the main house sound is good. Once I know the system is right, any channels I add to the mix

[@MikaelLewisify]

This is a really stupid video. Why would you not ring out the room? Every room has resonant frequencies that are very likely to give you trouble. Why would you not eliminate or reduce those frequencies before starting to mix your band or mics? Clickbait BS.

[@healthclass10]

Trying to figure out how this applies to our church sound system and I'm scratching my head on this. We don't have any settings in our digital console (soundcraft vi7000) for room eq or system eq. Is system eq the LR mains or is that the room eq? Where do monitor wedges fit into those categories? Got plenty of feedback issues and want to figure out the best way to take them out the problem frequencies.

[@rudygomez6996]

Hi!! Could you give recommendations on good live microphones please!! It would be very helpful to me!!!!

[@boast1570]

Oh man, waiting for the premiere after ringing out my room last night. He's making that face at me. Directly at me.

[@AttawayAudio]

Matt, you have no idea how many people I'm making that face directly at 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@YourHaloCreations]

How would you tune something by ear, like your PA?

[@AttawayAudio]

Get good at ear training with tools like SoundGym's peak master game, and play songs you know well and find the stuff that sounds out of place

[@jeffyjobluegrass]

So I am a sound man by default, doing my on sound for my bluegrass group, some venue’s being outside and I have a powered mixer with passive speakers but it’s not digital. My question is it possible to use a floor wedge with a Large diaphragm condenser mic such as the Shure KSM44 ?

[@AttawayAudio]

Possible? Yes. Will you have much gain before feedback? Probably not.

[@marclewism]

I dont want to skip, I'll watch it full

[@zenoenal3706]

Thank you. You're alright. I've got a buzz in my stream. Don't know where to look to find it . High freq. ringing too I have a live show to do in an hour. Dimmer switches? .

[@zenoenal3706]

Rode Pro / ATEM Mini ISO/ Mac / 4 mics/ 4 camera's

[@Palvader]

Thank you! I love how you say "stereo bus" to refer to the mains. Because go stereo or go home!

[@jakebelmore8809]

It's ALWAYS ALL about the low end :)

[@AttawayAudio]

When you get it right, everything else falls into place

[@Angelum_Band]

No it's not. Lately sound engineers have become biased favoring low frequencies. That one the reasons music sucks nowadays.

[@acreguy3156]

@@Angelum_Band Agreed! Fellow musician here with 40 years experience. Today's vocals sound like a robot with a nasal infection singing but perfectly tuned. So-called "artists" today don't *create* music. They *manufacture* it. If you can't hum a song back to yourself or make out the lyrics, then it's garbage.

[@jhunn061]

Are four parametric bands enough to solve feedback problem on an untreated room? I wish I had more...

[@AttawayAudio]

EQ is your last resort... try to solve it with other means

[@alcraig1]

7:45. Wrong. The fundemental frequency of any standing wave is determined by the distance between two parallel surfaces.

[@AttawayAudio]

thanks for the correction :)

[@Jung2-samanhudisound]

When you said Group EQ is it mean MixBus channel EQ? From what i know you can't send MixBus to MixBus, only from MixBus to Effect, Matrix, or Master, so you can't send that group to monitor

[@88omarz]

Hi James I have a podium mic that’s causing some issue. What’s the best way to fix this? The mic is MX412S S-Card Gooseneck Mic 12" using x32

[@AttawayAudio]

Placement is critical. A lot of those aren't very forgiving

[@88omarz]

@@AttawayAudio totally hear that. Tried a few things but moving the speakers aren’t possible and the mic also

[@DeltaWhiskeyBravo13579]

Livestream and front of house on the same mixer for me. My Livestream gets an auxiliary master stereo feed, which has their own separate setup and mix. At times, I'm running Livestream audio/video and front of house, but mostly I'm the Livestream only guy. My older setup was via a hand me down Mackie 24 channel analog mixer. I had to do the 31 band hardware EQ on my stereo master output as my feedback control. My new mixer has built-in feedback control via a dbx AFS2 feedback suppressor. It will automatically create tight notch filters, 6 static and 6 time released if I've got it correct. PS I forgot, it's ALL about the low end.

[@TerenceKearns]

my previous church had a 32 channel analog yamaha with 4 group busses. I needed to pull a livestream mix as well. So I got the sound guys to send everything (that wasn't going to the internet) through those 4 buses and pulled those 4 channels through an audio interface of the livestreaming computer so I could do a "blunt" balance for the Internet.

[@AttawayAudio]

i like it!

[@jxb178]

What do you mean when you say, “make sure you A-B it”?

[@AttawayAudio]

Do a listening test back and forth, so there's very short time between one setting and the other, or engaged and bypassed. It helps you identify what actually changes, not what you "think" it's doing.

[@jeffalfonso1558]

bypassing

[@morsikpl]

Love your videos! Just one thought about Graphic EQ (known as GEQ). In Behringer X32 and XAir series there is also True EQ which works like GEQ (31-bands) but it gives you nice smooth slope like parametric. Pretty good especially if you're out of PEQ bands (which they are only 4 on X32 channels)

[@AttawayAudio]

I'll have to dive deeper into that one. Thanks Konrad!

[@jlc2093]

So what's the difference

[@morsikpl]

@@jlc2093 let's assume, you'll move all your EQ bands -6dB. The difference is in GEQ you have bumps on every frequency like Attaway showed on his video. But with True EQ you just got straight like.

[@marcuspainter6861]

Thanks for this. I have a XR18 and I was wondering what the difference was. This EQ looks like series of peak/notch filters, which appears to be the standard. I think the True EQ uses bandpass filters. They have a flat response across the whole band. The edge roll off is chosen to overlap adjacent bands so that they sum to a flat response. A bit like a speaker cross-over.

[@sgriffin760]

On the x32 you can press and hold the two eq like high and high mid it will give you the third one to eq

[@medovasar2072]

Hello, if we have mixer QU-16 MAIN LR output going to the input DBX DriveRack PA2 and from there output to the amplifier that connect to the 4 Bose MA12 spks. To ring out room with 4 AKG C7 mics, should we do it at the Mixer PEQ or use on DBX DriveRack PA2 what's called AFS (Advanced Feedback Suppression)? Also perform the AutoEQ on DBX DriveRack PA2 rather than using Mixer Channel PEQs. Any suggestions here! Thanks much!

[@AttawayAudio]

Start with the channel EQ

[@medovasar2072]

@@AttawayAudio Thanks for your reply. Keep posting great videos. The QU-16 each Mic Channel EQ has 4 freq bands, LF, LM, HM, and HF. I don't know whether or not that's enough bands to manage feedback with 4 to 5 mics in the main hall for each mic? It seems like when 1 mic in use and ring out room using channel EQ all is good, but as soon as second same mic is introduced feedback picks up again. If same mics are used, we're most likely dealing with same frequencies and maybe is possible to narrow down feedback using channel EQ. I'm just trying to find out the best possible way to tackle this problem. Your thoughts if you don't mind in little more details. Thanks!

[@ke6gwf]

One of the biggest issues with your advice here is that more and more facilities are recording or broadcasting their events, and so if you are using channel EQ to knock out feedback, you are making a horrible sounding outboard feed. This is why you need to use buss or LR Main level EQ to treat for feedback, even if it reduces the quality in FOH slightly, so that you can use Channel EQ to make the mic sound good, so that you have a good sounding signal to export. And for ringing out the room specifically, one church I was running sound at recently with an analog board, usually has very loud talkers and singers, and so feedback is almost never an issue, even though they are literally in front of the speakers some of the time. But then one weekend they had a VERY soft spoken guest speaker who stayed back from the microphone for two services, and I was caught off guard on the first service and was fighting feedback to try to get him to audible levels, and so as soon as the first service was over I rung out that microphone to get the maximum gain (I only had channel EQ available...), so for the next service we could hear him, but the mic didn't sound very good. This is where I would stolen a GEQ if I could have so I could notch out the narrow feedback frequencies, instead of having to use a PEQ and take out a whole swath, since it's basically only a couple of single tones that were resonant in our room.

[@nja7579]

Titles a bit misleading. Ringing out a room on the system EQ with a vocal mic from the stage is odd. Using a reference mic to knock out a few room resonances from the audience space and then tweeking with reference tracks is fine.

[@TheRealCalijokes01]

Something here was confusing I’m in school

[@billfallon2372]

and nobody leaves the church humming the kick drum. LOL THIS GUY IS AWESOME! HA! HA! HA!

[@modellking]

If you cannot DSP your Speakers, using a ref mic to eq the room is very much necessary in a room with significant standing resonance to keep clarity.

[@66fitton]

I would never use a 31 band eq to do what you did with it lol. Using an x32 on a simple gig I use main eq to do the room with music first, then eq the channel to sound good in FOH, then use the bus eq's to do the wedges. Main and bus eq's are 6 band parametric and channels are 4 band with a low cut. As backup, I have inserted two dual band 31 band graphics into bus' 1 to 4 and assigned them to the quick control buttons. (I've only used the graphics for problem sidewash monitors a couple of times) As far as "ringing out the room" that's what happens first when you use music. You will notice the freq's that ringout longer and bad reflections and deal with them right away. If a vocal mic re-introduces some of those problems, use the channel eq. If the monitor does the same, you have the bus eq. Not complicated. If you still have problems, check your gain staging and send and return levels to everything in the signal path. Still problems? TURN IT DOWN LOL

[@ChrisBrooker]

This completely backs up what my ears have been telling me for the last 2 decades..... and they like to party!

[@AttawayAudio]

welcome to the internet, where you can find someone to affirm whatever opinion you hold 🤣

[@stephenstewart-g8h]

I Have Enough Behringer Ulyracurve's In The Signal Path To Handle L+R Mains And Six Floor Monitors, With Ten Feedback Notch Per Channel As Narrow As One Sixty Fourth Octave Notch Is Pretty Transparent, Many Times My RTA Can't See It

[@scivirus3563]

if you lose Freq on a instruments when you ring EQ then you have over done it ..seriously ..if you EQ for the Room you remove standing waves and so removing feed back triggers .that is what RIng out is for

[@columbiaprosound3023]

hi we are from india we need help how to eq condenser micro phone in live programme like shure mics k series

[@mparkerdrums]

So ring out the individual tracks not the main LR?

[@AttawayAudio]

Yeah that's the short version :)

[@alantuttphotography]

So, if you have mega-bucks, you can buy all the fancy equipment to avoid ringing out a room, but if you have limited funds, you're out of luck. What would you suggest for a small band who is always setting up in new spaces?

[@AttawayAudio]

Focus on the fundamentals - using speaker/mic placement, mics that have good rejection, etc.

[@alantuttphotography]

@@AttawayAudio ... and EQ out any problem frequencies - i.e. - ring out the room.

[@jeerrdd4857]

It’s all about that low end. 💯🔥

[@bobleglob162]

No. No no no. that's why I quit going to live shows. All you can hear is the fucking kick and some kind of indiscriminate bass sludge. Sounds like dogshit

[@ih8suvs]

Colder air is denser than warmer air. It's going to affect the sound in the room assuming it's loud enough. That's why plane's wing generates more lift when the temps are lower than higher. (I worked at a flight school ages ago and this tidbit is still floating around back there.)

[@Deaddinoproductions]

Unfortunate how unhelpful this video is. Struggling with vocal feedback in the mains? Route vocals through a group rather than directly to the LR buss and then use GEQ on the group. Make moderate cuts of around 3 to 6 dB at the problem frequencies and try to avoid cutting more than 5 or 6 bands. If you have the option, practice applying de-essers, multiband compression, or dynamic EQ (my personal favorite) on the vocal channels and/or vocal buss to tame harshness and resonant frequencies, which can help further mitigate possible feedback. Those are the solutions this video should have offered. And GEQ is not something to be feared and avoided, you just need to know how to properly use it (as just described above). It’s really misleading for novice sound folks who are trusting the information in this video to say you hate GEQ because of how it behaves when you use it in a way that it’s not intended to be used 😑.

[@Deaddinoproductions]

Also worth mentioning... one of the most important things to pay attention to is the mic technique of your vocalists, especially when they’re using in-ears. You could have a very well designed and tuned system and room and still experience feedback if you’re trying to push a vocalist to the front of the mix while they’re softly singing 8 inches off the mic. This can happen more often when using IEMs because the singer can turn up their vocal as loud as they want in their ears which might lead them to back off the mic and/or sing more softly. Compound this with multiple vocalists on stage all doing the same thing and you can be dealing with a whole mess of stage bleed and feedback in vocal mics. Not to mention there’s a substantial loss in low end when you’re singing off the mic due to proximity effect, which will make the vocal sound thin and weak. Coach your singers to stay on the mic and project, which may require them to turn down their vocal in their ears or stage monitor. This will make your job a million times easier.

[@fv3video]

Q is the magic knob. Thanks for sharing.

[@AttawayAudio]

Yeah but so is gain and frequency 🤣🤣🤣

[@tronlady1]

Yes. With a thin Q you can take out the offenders and not chisel away too much!

[@johnmcvicker6728]

Taking the measurement in an empty room versus full room definitely can differ. EQ'ing an empty room (and in our case one without chairs as it is a gym) seems to be a tough compare to make it sound good empty versus when full of people and chairs. Now, the default can be "just leave the room processor as it is even if it doesn't look right" and just EQ to make it "sound good" when you are mid-service. I have to wonder if it is even worth getting a flat room to begin with. Our room has 4-5dB shelf lift above 2k without people in it and some scoops in the 100-140 area. Easy way out - don't do anything. Harder way out - "change stuff and be responsible for the outcome".

[@AttawayAudio]

Absolutely - people are hot water bags, both absorbing acoustic energy, and producing heat which bends high frequencies up. Great comment!

[@johnmcvicker6728]

@@AttawayAudio any idea how to throw 75dB pink noise mid-service for long enough to get a measurement? Asking for a friend.

[@flyingclint589]

What analog Midas console was that at FOH when you showed that room at the “international house of prayer?”

[@AttawayAudio]

Midas Heritage 3000 I believe... or 2000, we've had both but I can't remember which is there presently

[@flyingclint589]

@@AttawayAudio nice! That’s what I figured. I’d love to get my hands on a 3000 again. I miss those consoles! So what are y’all running three consoles at FOH for?

[@taylormaid6721]

There are times that ringing out a room is necessary. Example same frequency feeds back in all mics. Its almost like room treatment has the same effect whereas certain types of treatments swallow certain frequency ranges. Just because ringing out a room takes that frequency out from every thing doesnt mean you handicap yourself except maybe if you only have 3 bands per channel like on most analog mixers as opposed to more selectable bands per channel as you would on a digital mixer.

[@banehnongsiej7071]

Can you please suggest some good music for sound check. 👍

[@AttawayAudio]

check the list of Grammy awards for Best-Engineered Album non-classical

[@ianyola_official]

Im waiting

[@olanrewajuadagba1291]

When we delve into this topic, we're really exploring everything related to the lower spectrum. This includes various factors that impact the lower end of things, offering a comprehensive understanding of this particular area.

[@RDYC]

Normally we ring out the monitors, but not the mains The room eq is to adjust for room acoustics.

[@AttawayAudio]

Yup.

[@asilva_media]

yeah what i do is unassign my mics from the main bus and send them to a post fader group with the nasty frequencies notched out with the parametric. works well except for monitors

[@AttawayAudio]

great tip!

[@martineeekhof2692]

Really nice video. I do have a question; Our church is a '50's Catholic Church, chapel size with cross side aisels. The installed sound system is well built and there is some acoustic dampening. However, when master EQ is flat, the sound is horrific, mostly low and low end (40-80 Hz, 200-800 Hz). Do I start graphic EQing the stereo out or is it better to do instruments (HPF's and Parametric EQ)?

[@AttawayAudio]

Try and make the speakers sound transparent with your EQ on your stereo out, and then keep the instruments sounding "normal" from their own channels.

[@FEVfallout]

Unless you have TEQ like XR/MR mixers ;-) graphical eq is a must on master live bus

[@AttawayAudio]

yep - that's an exception...

[@jazzlamport849]

I love this guy 😂 very helpful yet funny and ‘not boring’

[@TheRealCalijokes01]

I’m not understanding some of this like which do we trust the room or the headphones

[@AttawayAudio]

Trust your headphones more, since they aren't affected by the room acoustics

[@lesnerarie]

Maine LR graphic EQ is a compromise, Don't use it if you don't have to. the only feedback that you are going to encounter is from your vocal mic's, cut the low end for those mic's and EQ as needed.

[@FurtiveSkeptical]

When ringing out a room you don't make hard deep cuts. Done gently, you don't take any fundamental instrument frequencies from the mix. EQ on monitors is at least as important as the room EQ. If any use of the EQ is heavy or deep, you will end up with the situation you're afraid of. Some rooms unfortunately are so many hard, parallel surfaces that not paying attention to ringing seems foolish. If you're getting rid of ringing and gutting your sound, you're doing it wrong. I don't fully agree with your approach to this problem, but it was a detailed and informative video. Thanks for bringing attention to this issue.👍

[@marshy_moo]

Suffer? Lol, if the room is reinforcing certain modes (frequencies), the room is already making those things "suffer", so tuning the room to "equalize" the response of the room is likely to make the real character of all instruments more... well "equal" (aka. neutral, realistic).

[@alamakluke]

Thank you sir for the very informative video... cheers from Canada.

[@protoman247]

I am also waiting 😀

[@tronlady1]

What’s the soundcheck solo??

[@AttawayAudio]

sound tech solo. where people crane their neck and look at you when you flub it up 😬😬😬

[@sph_holl2650]

So, the Church I now attend, I’ve just started doing sound mixing and it’s really tricky because they’ve got acoustic panels all round the room (it’s relatively small, seats about 100 if full), but there’s also a section with a lower ceiling, the mixing desk is right at the back of this lower ceiling area - so sometimes I get people at the front sayings it’s too loud and bassy, and me at the back wanting more bass! Not sure what to do, I don’t think the Pastor would be pleased about moving the sound desk!

[@permanenceinchange2326]

I'm familiar witj this situation... the only remedy still is to get out of that lower ceiling area! Maybe you could convince your pastor to try it for a couple of services at least. And show him it works out!

[@AttawayAudio]

That's a rough one. The other comments on here are good advice. If you could play recorded music for your pastor and help him experience the difference, that might go a long way in getting him to understand the need for a solution

[@tronlady1]

Mix with iPad out front?

[@ke6gwf]

Been there, done that lol If moving FOH isn't an option, do a lot of walking the room during sound check and with canned music or recordings of your service, and learn how it sounds in the seats compared to where you are, so that you can learn what volume and bass levels to aim for at FOH, to make it good in the seats. The church I just started helping a few weeks ago, it sounds so quiet at FOH I can barely understand the pastor, but it's what sounds right for the people in the seats, because they are basically directly under the speakers. (it's a wide and shallow room with a low ceiling)

[@getsmarter5412]

There is no one way of tuning a PA. You have to understand and utilize all tools at your disposal at the right time. Not stressed enough - tune out your monitors first using the 1/3 octave. If you don't, if the problem is your monitors and you don''t catch it, you'll destroy your foh looking for it. Also- I set up a complete seperate set of channels for my vocal monitors, both mains and monitor vocal channels tapped off the same xlr. The only thing common to both is the input gain. This gives me complete independence to manipulate the vocals in the monitors without affecting the mains. The first goal of any soundperson should be the monitors. If it ain't happening for the musicians, it ain't happening for anyone. And- if it doesn't need it, don't mess with it. I did Black Uhuru a couple weeks back, 7 monitors on 6 mixes on a small stage with 5 vocals. When I set up, everything came up perfect in the monitors, both 1/3 octave and channel EQ's completely flat. I went through the whole night, 2 openers and Black Uhuru (who showed up 1/2 hour before they went on, no soundcheck) with not a single request to change the vocal monitors, nor a single shot of feedback. Rare, but I knew better than to fix what wasn't broken.

[@TomCee53]

Two comments - you mention “how to lead your church sound team” but the link is for “how you lead your church stream audio team” - when I went to sign up it claimed my email was invalid, no matter what I put in.

[@AttawayAudio]

Sorry about that! The link is fixed now. Let me know if you can sign up now!

[@robfriedrich2822]

Sorry, but the vocals are important and the microphone itself isn't the main reason for feedbacks. It's more room reflection and speaker system. When the microphone boosts frequencies, it's to make them better audible. When I fix the possible feedback by using master equalizer, I keep the advantage of the boost, but get rid the disadvantages.

[@robfriedrich2822]

When I use master equalizer I'm aware, that the vocal microphones doesn't cover the bass range, the perfect setting for vocals is simply a starting point.

[@ximingze2238]

My 20, 25, 35 hz is all the way up. I tend to lower the 1k and 4k to limit its feedback.

[@fender97]

I like your videos, though some mics need ringing out on their individual channels, especially headset mics. They can be fatiguing and unnatural, sounding to the ears especially given the modern overuse of compression. EQ is always compensating in some way so it's advantageous to set the room up correctly. Old churches and cathedrals are sonically incredible. Even old pre-WW2 school halls are impressive as they usually have an organ installation and appropriate baffles. Modern buildings are box shaped and are a nightmare for live sound. If you can get some shaping in the corners and use baffles. Get a full spectrum mic and record pink noise through your system with no EQ at various listening positions - it will show you where problems are and allow you to compensate for any excessive frequencies.

[@robertseeyt]

"help church sound tech save the day" - I like that

[@ybyap]

This is great video, thanks.

[@umiracoma272]

I like watching your videos very informative.

[@AttawayAudio]

Thanks Umi!

[@rickparma]

it's all about the low end! great easy video

[@sisterpete]

Great video but I completely disagree about "not looking for transparency on subs" when running the system. I'm absolutely looking for tightness and transparency on the sub just looked I am on the rest of the system. Your statement makes no sense. Why would you tube a room to get everything nice and clean, tight and transparent, but stop before you've finished? The system is a complete package, whether subs are coming off the main outputs (ugh) or through an aux like they should be. My subs will kick your face off and sound good doing it. Lol and yes, it can certainly be a party (just with great mushless subs! 😁

[@AttawayAudio]

I think we're defining things a little differently. I'm with you 100%, just using different terminology.

[@JMDERUMS]

I'm blessed to find this channel. Very informative and entertaining to watch. No boring moments. Thank you sir. Greetings from Philippines. :)

[@AttawayAudio]

Thank you very much!

[@PanRider939]

Rather than ringing out the room I’d be more inclined to find out why the source is feeding back in the first place. Mic placement in relation to a fold back, mic technique from a backing vocal etc.

[@AttawayAudio]

definitely

[@tlb2732]

Your opening comments are misleading and are not helpful to sound technicians and musicians in venues outside of church, rooms where volume levels often tend to be much louder. I've been a performing musician for over 41 years and have owned and operated my own sound systems for most of that time. I currently gig with a three piece classic rock cover band and perform acoustic solos and duets in church. I was a member of a bluegrass gospel group for 10+ years. For starters, ringing out a system is a crucial step for bands in a club setting or in any venue where wedge monitors are utilized. While ringing out can and sometimes is performed for front of house speakers, it is critical for any monitor speakers if the musicians are to hear themselves at all on loud stages. Sure, the more deeply you ring out a monitor mix, the more the tonal qualities are affected. Performers wanting loud monitors must accept this fact. Those requiring a more realistic sound must accept and perform with a lower monitor volume. Or, in ear monitors are always an option. As a rule of thumb, I try to operate front of house speakers without ringing out. My current system allows me to ring them out as a precaution using as much attenuation as I desire, save that setting, then disable the adjustments prior to the show then re-engage only if needed. With live monitor wedges, it's ALWAYS needed. And microphones aren't the only sources of feedback in a sound system. Pickups on acoustic instruments, especially guitars, are very prone to feedback and are very problematic in monitors and in front of house except when good separation is possible between the stage and FOH speakers. Churches are very different sonic environments than most secular stage locations. Many rules and practices which are very effective in houses of worship and fellowship halls simply do not translate to other environments. Church congregations expect a reverent setting and are there to worship and receive a meaningful message of spoken words along with uplifting songs of praise, not for entertainment. People visit clubs and secular venues expressly for entertainment.

[@__boaz]

Preach!

[@lemop]

Couldn't leave this vid without pointing out some issues: 1. your argument on why Graphic EQs are bad is a GEQ not behaving like a shelf EQ. This is like saying bananas are rubbish because they don't get me to work on time. GEQs are designed to be tight notches for specific frequencies - designed to be super helpful for eliminating feedback. Trying to make a shelf with a GEQ is misusing it - it's not going to sound good. 2. What it IS going to sound good at is notching out frequencies, and it's going to do a much cleaner job of that than a super tight PEQ notch IMO. We know all EQs are essentially phase changes, and the tighter the notch, the worse the phase issues. A GEQ will have a much cleaner phase response in that use case, leaving your PEQ to tweak the sound of the channel (which if it's a vocal will need a good tweak - natural isn't the expected sound in my experience) I agree though on where in the chain you ring out your room. Makes loads of sense to group all the vocal mics and drop a graphic on them, or have a GEQ insert if your desk has enough. It's worth remembering that feedback is often caused by room modes, so the distinction there is a bit blurry. Rather than EQing the vocal mic in FOH to stop monitor feedback, it makes way more sense to ring them out per monitor. Ringing out the room is a really useful tool when you're in a new space, have time to spare, and don't know your singers. Because I do this even the quietest of singers are heard clearly with no feedback, and I have the PEQ's full capability available to tweak the tone.

[@mparkerdrums]

So are you saying… ring out each track with its own designated track eq rather than ring out the main LR with its master eq?

[@lemop]

@@mparkerdrums No, I'm saying ring out using graphic Graphic EQ's on the main speakers and monitors. Leave the PEQs for actual mixing.

[@camilo8cheryl]

Church is easy to setup cause your stuff is just there..the mobile PA system is the headache when setting up in different size rooms/room acoustics , speaker placements etc..

[@silan2335]

What headphone do you use?

[@AttawayAudio]

Audio Technica ATH M50x... it's a mouthful to say.

[@jayraysdiy852]

I appreciate your videos they are helping a lot!

[@brisbinbaptistchurch8994]

Okay what about the small churches who's still using the "old" analog sound boards? 😮You know the churches where installing used analog equipment is a major upgrade to the 35 year old failng sound system that is woefully obsolete to the decade old used equipment they can afford? Thats the situation I find myself in, a new to us, Yamaha MG32 14FX sound board. As much as you hate them a graphic EQ is gonna likely be the option we have to use.

[@AttawayAudio]

do your best with what you have... and manage expectations :)

[@marxman00]

WRING OUT the WRONG ( not ring the rong)The Sound system needs to be a white canvas to paint your picture on , If you dont flaten the speaker response then you are painting on a non white canvas..so all your colours are going to come out wrong. Having done this for 30+ years ( later with pink , and analyser and sine waves ) Without fail The simple and quickest best result is to put your main vocal mic on a stand centre stage and flat ch EQ hi pass at 100hz , turn up rig ..let it feedback graph correct and continue . Same if using floor monitors (plus reflecting off hand) ....Now that there can not feedback when the gig starts you have 100% vocal control and can ADD if necessary rather than subtract ...so people can understand every word sang or spoken, this seems quite rare these days (except open air festivals) ..... most indoor gigs I have witnessed these days are a victim of sub bass , this smogs out any definition possible at higher frequencys.and also the lack of distortion in modern systems makes people use too much volume !

[@AttawayAudio]

Absolutely - you need the speakers to be uncolored. And if you get great results from your simple and quick way, I'm not going to stop you. I'm just not going to recommend it either :) Thanks for the comment!

[@taylormaid6721]

Everything from 6:50 to 7:50 goes against this title. Everything from 7:50 and a little forward speaks to the fact that you will have to do your job as an engineer and bring up frequencies you subtracted and subtract frequencies you boosted…

[@CED.Dweller]

Thanks for this!

[@AttawayAudio]

You're very welcome!

[@Shane.Russell]

And…we like to party. 😂 That made me laugh

[@Selvinop94]

Ring out the room is especially useful with non sound treated venues.

[@ianutube22]

What about using white/pink noise to “tune” main equalizers?

[@AttawayAudio]

That's more of what I'm suggesting - using a reference signal to make the input = the output.

[@soundbeastin]

It all about that BASS!!

[@sleekdee931]

It's all about the low end!💪🏼

[@AttawayAudio]

strong low end 💪

[@ATBP.productions]

As a live sound engineer, I never use an EQ to “ring” the FOH in the room for purpose of preventing feedback. EQ for FOH is for a different purpose. Either to make the FOH sounding “flat” in the room, or sound “good” for yourself the sound engineer. But I would always “ring” the stage foldbacks with the mics nearest to it if stationary or for wireless mics against few foldbacks. But that’s after shaping the mics to desired tone. I was hoping he clarifies tha it is not a myth for foldbacks. So on that part, I disagree. It is not a myth to ring out the foldbacks. It is essential. Anyone who says otherwise needs to work more on rock stadium concerts with no in-ears. lol. It is still different feel ng playing on-stage with live stage foldbacks with the soundwaves moving the air, than just in-ears. 😅😅

[@meyerneel]

Probably not many techs out there with as much live sound hours as a IHOP sound tech I imagine!

[@joebro937]

Oh ya!!!!! All about the low end