Collapse in those studying creative courses amid UK arts funding cuts

[@winner8x8]

For being the ‘creative’ teachers, their chant was not very creative at all.

[@Stephan__ox.]

@@winner8x8 so underwhelming 😂

[@boop7313]

To save the arts everyone needs to value the arts and educators too.

[@lervish1966]

I agree - Science is more important.

[@mogensgallardo3288]

​@@lervish1966When societies are the most prosperous, so are their cultural exports. Don't think I've got to explain why you're wrong tbh

[@lervish1966]

@@mogensgallardo3288 Would you rather have a hospital or an art gallery?

[@HarleyButler-ox3qn]

What amuses me is that people always say arts are " useless/Micky mouse" yet they all have netflix, go to gigs, festivals and the cinema. Who do you think makes all these things you enjoy?

[@JohnJones-k9d]

Engineers and scientists normally. Creative degrees graduates are serving coffee or flipping burgers normally

[@django3422]

​@@JohnJones-k9dAs a former technical engineer who used to set up gigs and festivals, I can safely say you have no idea what you're talking about.

[@Bringon-dw8dx]

A LOT a of those skills can be taught through apprenticeships/learning on the job, they don’t need a degree

[@soundscape26]

Without creative people the world would be dull and grey.

[@raynarks]

There were creative people long before universities.

[@theresamaysupportsISIS]

Without civil engineers we wouldn’t even have universities mate. Those who need to be paid well are engineers not painters 😂😂😂😂

[@soundscape26]

@@theresamaysupportsISIS It's not an either/or situation.

[@molkakaminski]

why public funding?

[@MuteSignals]

Arts graduate here. I always recommend people not to study an art degree and just learn from home because of the crazy tuition. Also I’ve been unemployed for 12 years.

[@jameskaye683]

Wow 12 years that takes some commitment!!

[@TheAArmstrong]

I did a creative degree, which I regret as I’ve never used it. Wish I had just knuckled down in a job and saved myself thousands. Far too many people have these degrees and there aren’t enough opportunities.

[@MuteSignals]

@@TheAArmstrong I can hope for more opportunities but the hard truth for creatives and really anyone in work, you have to have the determination to find them and some folks don’t have that ability 🤷🏼 I’m looking into a job in care dw lads I’ll get there!

[@lesliespeaker668]

Many famous British musicians started out in art schools, that's where they would meet other musicians. Just think how music history would have been different if it wasn't for these institutions. This was money well spent.

[@VentureHolly]

We also had robust social welfare systems in those days. The Beatles would be too busy worrying about food and shelter to focus on music in 2024.

[@JohnJones-k9d]

Our greatest musician did not. Look at the biggest bands in last 70 years NONE OF THEM WENT TO A CREATIVE UNIVERSITY.

[@WhateverMan35]

Yes, back in the day where there was no internet, KZbin, instergram. If your argument is that it's the socialising that contributes to great musicians then the universities for these kinds of studies are redundant.

[@lesliespeaker668]

@@WhateverMan35 Good point but as artists you will have to meet up in person eventually to work together. There's a lot you can do digitally, but there's much more that you can't.

[@WhateverMan35]

@@lesliespeaker668 Well, the point I'm making is that modern commutation has undermined the point. While travel has arguably gotten expensiveness (due to brexit and inflation). It isn't unachievable. Even then, organising venues or conventions would be far cheaper than a university degree.

[@mattbrown-mb]

The Tories cuts to creative education fly in the face of the value they bring to the UK. The economic contribution of the UK creative industries grew by 6.8 per cent in 2022 to reach £124.6bn, according to official UK government estimates. The fact that these continued cuts restrict access to only those with money to spend shines a light on the Tory values we have seen so much of in recent years, fund creative education for all.

[@BarerRudeROC]

the collapse of the human spirit continues

[@quackcement]

@@BarerRudeROC only if you have an elitist view, that only a formal education qualifies you to make art

[@BarryWaterlow]

*Fine arts and literature education in the UK has been terribly dumbed down for several decades.*

[@mattbrown-mb]

When creative education is underfunded (for the last 14 years under the Tories) everybody suffers.

[@yous1413]

Literature is a compulsory gcse subject at most schools and quite overrated. It’s only arts and technology subjects like DT and food which are more useful than analysing fiction that get dropped as they’re not part of ebacc.

[@mal7175]

The reason only 8% of the film & tv workforce are working class, is because the industry is incredibly elitist and it's all about your network. They're never going to talk about that - and that's ignoring the obvious differences in salaries, opportunities and progression. Worthless degree because of how they hire.

[@quackcement]

People can self teach this online, so I'm not surprised

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Sure and apparently saying stupid things seems to be an online course as well. And you are a very gifted student aren't you?

[@quackcement]

@@etiennedelaunois1737 so you don't think having a passion and commitment to learn an artform qualifies you to make art? do you have an elitist view on creativity? and look down on highly capable people without formal degrees?

[@falkland]

I cannot believe it. This is one of the area that UK is actually still in the leading place! It is also the place where AI is hard to replace at the higher level!

[@JohnJones-k9d]

Who cares, We need graduates in STEM subjects these are the graduates who create wealth not this lot.

[@ukwatotskuhide270]

AI is devastating the creative industries mate. Sure they can't replace Taylor Swift but she never went to University. Matter of fact is if you're good enough to be a household name you never needed university it just can't teach that level of skill.

[@eddie4324]

Having a well paying career in the arts is very difficult. I don’t blame kids for not wanting to start arts courses.

[@quackcement]

@@eddie4324 simple market dynamics, too many art degrees for so few jobs, this adjustment was inevitable

[@MaudeD153]

Very sad news......

[@Chevy-jordan]

I’m weirdly conflicted on this topic. Speaking as an artist, and someone who studied a creative subject at university, I’m not entirely sure pushing young people to the arts as a traditional career pathway is the best course of action for the country. Where we desperately need more young people attracted to STEM subjects. Historically the major influential artists from working-class backgrounds have always found a way regardless of if there was academic/government support or not. Grime, jungle, hip-hop didn’t come out of universities. They came from the streets, and gone are the days when you have to go to university to get access to film equipment. Most people have these incredible filmmaking devices in their pockets. Though I’d agree that an academic environment gives you access to art/culture you maybe not be exposed to via the algorithmic based modern internet, and for actors ima theatre route can really push you in ways self-study cannot. It’s not exactly going to explain the importance of French new wave on cinema, or Roland Barthes. Most of it is trend oriented mundane slop. I guess then it’s a question of which arts would benefit from funding more than others.

[@not_ever]

As someone who is in STEM and has done a lot of volunteer work to get children into STEM, I disagree. Not everyone is suited to STEM and the country has a shortage of people to work in STEM fields largely because the wages are low compared to other countries. We need a mix of skills for a sucessful country. There are several creative sectors that are billion pound industries in the UK and we need to stop looking at starving artists as being in any way representative of non-STEM educational pathways.

[@ardalire651]

The value of arts education is not in whether people go on to become artists, but in the way it diversified and enriches people's ability to do other things. Someone with a straight STEM education is useless unless they know how to think outside the box. But for the record, free arts education is absolutely the best form of access for those who don't have connections in creative industries (i.e., privilege)

[@grenniespexify]

​@@not_everI completely agree! Stem is not for everyone and the divide between Stem and arts education is artificial and actively detrimental to both. I would also add that part of the problem in arts education decline is to push them into university settings and academia. The loss of art schools and conservatoires over the last 25 years has deprived us of the specific educational settings required to truly nurture creative talent.

[@seh1080]

But can you blame the young generation? The amount of people who can make decent living vs who have to find another job to supplement their income in art is mind boggling. There are reasons and living examples why we call New York (Broadway) and Los Angeles (Hollywood) graveyards of dreams. I understand the arts are more than just Hollywood and Broadways (speaking as an American, i dont know what’s the equivalent outside of America). But from a practical point of view, the stem fields provide more concrete skillsets and better job opportunities.

[@charlottet7548]

💯 agree

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Right as you just said: "art is more than Hollywood and Broadway" I don't know if you are aware of this but there is an entire world around the US, it is not because you don't know anything about it that the rest of the 7 billions of us are in the same boat. Secondly, creative industry is one of the major economy in the UK: www.gov.uk/government/publications/creative-industries-sector-vision £108 billions in 2021. The problem is not artists, it is people talking about things they don't know and don't understand. I'm a professional musician, I'm not going to talk about how we should reform the job of civil engineering because it is becoming useless with the progress of AI while I'm sitting on my sofa, in my lounge, in my house that doesn't collapse on me because an engineer have done a good job. I hope for you that you don't listen to music, never wear a designer clothe, never read a book, never watch films or series, never use a logo for your business if you have one, never use or wear any colors anywhere, don't have a car (there are designer designing cars as well), live in a concrete cube,... I can carry on that list forever but I think you get my point. I hope we will not live in your world, ever.

[@grenniespexify]

But this is about education. About the opportunity to know and understand your talents as a young person. You may not have the aptitude for stem? Or the motivation to succeed in this field if it doesnt interest you. You'll just grow up thinking there is nothing in this world for you if you dont get a chance to experience them. I also think there are too many 'concrete skillsets' that you mention are driven by the rigidity of thinking that this implies. You can study arts and not necessarily become and artist. Apart from all the other jobs in the creative industries like producers and casting directors that require a combination of creativity and business sense there is also real value in stem industry workers and leaders having the creativity and flexibility that these industries desperately lack - or just having a creative opportunities in their spare time?

[@seh1080]

@@grenniespexify i do agree with you that exposure is necessary. But from a practical point of view, hoping more young people to focus on arts in the modern world is unrealistic. On the skillsets notes, my point is what you get from stems disciplines and studies are more transferable and certifiable than the one you get from arts. As long as you are certified with a skill , you are good to go in the stem fields. And they can be applied to many different type of jobs. The art skills on the other hand, require absolute talent for one to stand out among the rest. Also, the art skills are often too specific to be applied to a secondary career. And there are far more job opportunities in the modern world for stems than for arts. If the art skills are more applicable to our modern society then we wouldn’t have the problem mentioned in this video. Also creativity does not need to be acquired through schooling. Arts can enhance it but not necessarily breed it. I do agree that creativity will give you an edge in anything you do. But many creative people in major fields do not take formal art educations. Creativity after all is the ability to think differently from the norms. An engineer can be as creative as an artist. It’s just different types of creativities. TLDR, my point is the decline in art education is inevitable. You can’t expect people flocking into the arts when only a few can make it to the big stage. While stems fields give better and more staple outcomes as long as you are certified.

[@grenniespexify]

@@seh1080 Hi again - it isn't true that there is a decline in demand for art education, there is a massive decline in provision. High demand keeps the wages in the sector low and jobs oversubscribed. Arts courses are closing in UK institutions not because people don't want to do them but because they are expensive to run and therefore seen as expendable by the universities that have now taken them over from the art schools which originally established them. These art schools were no longer able to attract student grants in the UK system without offering degrees rather than diplomas. So instead private institutions with high fees and no subsidised courses fill the void and are full of people whose parents can afford to pay. So talent from more ordinary backgrounds is wasted and falls through the cracks, which is a tragedy that diminishes so much human potential. Creativity requires a baseline ability to express that creativity with (rather like a basic aptitude for maths is required to become an engineer) but it can always be nurtured, and the skills taught on arts courses are just that. There are many soft skills learned alongside hard ones. Not just how to play an instrument or glaze a ceramic but about creative decision making, realising a vision, project management and communication which which is fundamentally necessary to so much modern industry and economics. An engineer can be as creative as an artist, but many are not, or are not taught how be - which is why we get so much functional but deeply boring and depressing bridges, buildings and other dull infrastructure. "Life without industry is guilt, and industry without art is brutality" - John Ruskin, 1870 P.S. James Dyson was a graduate of the Royal College of Art.

[@canadianpsychologist]

Channel 4 News: Cathy Newman and Ben de Pear committed serious errors in the interview on Jan 16, 2018. We strongly condemn Cathy Newman’s behavior and want truth to be discussed, not ideology to be injected. Do better, Cathy.

[@mrmeldrew693]

You'd have thought they could have come up with a more creative chant. £9000 a year on an arts course that is wildly unlikely to land you a well paying job......what do you expect?

[@BrockSamson-i1i]

drama and art are not as important as health and food industries, let's be rational.

[@Crowcus]

Arguably, but they are severely underfunded. Not to mention they are one of UK's biggest exports. Other countries like Canada and France put a lot of money in their public fund for arts and it seems to have boosted their economy. This is money which can later boost the health and food industries. You can't keep reaping crops from a field if you forget to seed it.

[@Stephan__ox.]

Standing in solidarity ✊ art for the sake of art!

[@luckygjv872]

No. People in art don’t earn much and no one respects them

[@Stephan__ox.]

@@luckygjv872 I literally wrote ‘art for the sake of art’ -(Google) The idea that art should not be judged on its relationship to social, political, or moral values, but purely for its formal and aesthetic qualities. Your small minded comment let’s me know what I need to know

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

​@@luckygjv872it is like your mom, nobody respected her and look who is here now. Just do one thing right in your life: don't do the same mistake as your dad, put a condom.

[@Stephan__ox.]

@@luckygjv872 your comment tells me everything I need to know - art for the sake of art (Google) - art should not be judged on its relationship to social, political, or moral values, but purely for its formal and aesthetic qualities

[@lain5678]

So depressing 😔

[@dj33781]

It's all about priorities. This country is broke with no doctors, nurses or hospitals. There's only so much money to go around. We need to prioritise what's going to create a functioning society first (good public services) and then invest in all the other things. I think the arts are important, but I think the cost to study the arts should be far greater than the cost to study vocational subjects the country is currently lacking homegrown talent for. e.g. Doctors etc.

[@robertskolimowski7049]

Kudos to Ch4News for reporting on this👏

[@duncanhewitt6557]

A middle class art bubble.

[@rebecca.smith.]

Arts Council Grants = The Arts Dole

[@mark314158]

Apparently the sciences, engineering and mathematics are not "creative".

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Nobody said that it is not creative. A society without the fundamental education like philosophy, art, music,... will have a massive lack with Science. You have a massive imagination with making saying what people never said or stupidity. Maybe you should exploit this and do something useful with it.

[@OPIXdotWORLD]

@@etiennedelaunois1737 Nobody said that it is not creative. ?? but IT WAS implied... of course we need culture, but not at the expense of actual learning

[@Crowcus]

'Creative' only refers to a handful of industries, like illustration and acting. It's a shorthand, similar to 'vocational'. Creativity can be found in any field.

[@Crowcus]

​@@OPIXdotWORLD You realise art courses also involve a good deal of history and writing, right? You also have to learn the ins and outs of dozens of softwares with slow learning curves that can take many years to master (at least in the animation and illustration departments). You don't just paint all day. You also have to learn anatomy and how muscles move depending on the course. Lighting, perspective, colour theory, things we honestly need more classes on at university as they can be very complex and difficult to grasp, but most universities lack the funding to hire experts that can actually teach. But yeah, there is plenty of 'actual learning' in the arts, at least in my department. Sure, you can't save a life with it, but most people don't have the drive to pursue it professionally so it's not like we'll have a shortage of doctors or engineers anytime soon, if that's what you're worried about.

[@OPIXdotWORLD]

@@Crowcus u prob like biden too right..??

[@raquetdude]

KZbin and digital media is undercutting all standard media. Arts needs to become digital and therefore you need to help children into the advertising and market system and make them and their art commodities for consumption… and schools can’t do that because of the ethics and nature of modern digital media (modern digital media is shite)

[@northwestcoast]

Legz Akimbo

[@PythonesqueSpam]

Bleating against creative courses is typical Dunning-Kruger FFS! 🙄

[@molkakaminski]

is art helping GDP growth?

[@يااللهيارب-ف2ق]

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[@oo5581]

Well well well

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Your English and extend of vocabulary is amazing!

[@i.jwilson2885]

"Let them eat -cake- crayons"

[@AI-Hallucination]

AI can do it

[@arcan762]

Teach real skills to get real jobs 😅

[@n.p.mackenzie]

What would you class as a real skill and a real job? Finance? Accounting? You do realise that money is the result of the imagination? Does that make it real? The only thing real here is your stupidity

[@etiennedelaunois1737]

Shamed you never been educated. You could avoid saying stupidity. You are probably never read any book (thays for sure), listen to any music, never watch any films or any series, you don't need logo if you start your own business, live in a concrete cube, never have access to advertising, don't wear any clothes,... Just do one thing right please, don't do the same mistake as your dad, put a condom.

[@fintamaria2429]

👏👏👏

[@ItsJustRyan89]

People aren’t stupid, we clearly feel the approach of something massive- time to learn a skill or trade. We don’t have the luxury of pursuing such things, we are at a crucial point in history.

[@angelachicken4141]

We can have both - we used to have people who combined the arts and science to the benefit of all. This is about creating a generation of grunts and all our stories get to be Downton. Propaganda.

[@gobshite99]

Cry harder.

[@Shane-zl9ry]

Art is useless 😏

[@soundscape26]

Really? You're not a consumer of anything art related?

[@luckygjv872]

@@soundscape26Sure, every now and then a nice song is good to hear. But what musicians and painters do pales in comparison to what great inventors, scientists and engineers have done for us.

[@soundscape26]

@@luckygjv872 Musicians, writers, actors, filmmakers, painters, photographers, dancers, you name it. Imagine a world without any of them. But praising creative endeavours doesn't mean looking down on STEM people... this is not an either/or situation.

[@hourbee5535]

NHS and military spending come first

[@machidaman]

You're 50% right, from a right wing perspective. 100% wrong from anything approaching a sensible perspective.

[@lervish1966]

arty farty

[@danu_daann]

😮👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻